England Six Nations Thread

[ChequeredJersey]

First topic message reminder :

In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell

Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench

[Geordie]

Well I think beshocked has been proved totally right..

Inept leadership on the field yesterday.

Inability to change a losing gameplan and react to losing facets of the game.

Only Farrell was furious and trying to change it. Make him captain.

[Geordie]

Mark Wilson and Gary Graham would have been superb in yesterdays game! But Jones deemed them useless....

[Artful_Dodger]

England undone at the breakdown and it's not surprising when you have three second rows, an out and out ball carrying No.8 and Robshaw as your back five.

Lawes also gave away some very silly penalties. I would drop Lawes, possibly Robshaw as well, who has always been very pedestrian at international level. Start a ground hog openside and get back to basics at the breakdown.

[Welly]

Mark Wilson and Gary Graham would have been superb in yesterdays game! But Jones deemed them useless....

Bit of a difference between Scotland at Murrayfield and a piss poor Quins side (Who lost to a piss poor Tigers last week) though.

[No 7&1/2]

I don't think you can merely look at it game and say see. Look at 26 and judge. Look back after the wales Scotland match and see the amount of overreaction as well. I'd have either of them 2 players rather than a lock at 6 but I do think there's better around.

[Geordie]

Mark Wilson and Gary Graham would have been superb in yesterdays game! But Jones deemed them useless....

Bit of a difference between Scotland at Murrayfield and a piss poor Quins side (Who lost to a piss poor Tigers last week) though.

Disagree....

[Geordie]

I don't think you can merely look at it  game and say see. Look at 26 and judge. Look back after the wales Scotland match and see the amount of overreaction as well. I'd have either of them 2 players rather than a lock at 6 but I do think there's better around.

But how many of those 26 games have we been rattled...quite a few

Papered over the cracks.

Sort the back row
Hartley gone
Watson is never a full back..he can't tackle as a winger!!
Mako out Marler in
Consider Coles position aswell

Farrell captain. Only player who showed any fight and passion.

[Rugby Fan]

Fascinating to see what Jones does. He couldn't really follow up the loss to Ireland last year, because the next fixture in Argentina involved a wholy different squad. It's actually the first occasion he's had with England to react to a loss with much the same selection options available, and in a short space of time.

Jones had no interest in using his subs early. Wonder whether that's because he thought the plan would ultimate work (despite the scoreboard), or if he though he didn't have game-changing players on his bench.

[No 7&1/2]

We're not an unbeatable side never will be. Nz get rattled all the time. It's sport.

[mid_gen]

Ford did his usual disappearing act when the opposition can deny him quick ball and space.

He's wonderful against sides where England have the upper hand up front, but can't turn a game around when his side are under pressure.

I think we need to get Marcus Smith into a white shirt and see if he has what it takes at test level. He constantly makes things happen in a quins team playing absolute dirge.

[TJ]

Farrell captain? well it might be the making of him a it has been Hartley but for me somone who starts / gets into a fight in the tunnel before the game and who lets his temper get the better of him is no captain.

You do need a new one tho - someone with the nous to alter the tactics on the feild

[No 7&1/2]

Do you think tactics haven't changed in 26 games of jones or we haven't had to dig deep or have a bit of luck? Jees louise. England will play better and get better.

[Geordie]

7.5

They couldn't change the tactics during the game yesterday.

That's a MASSIVE problem.

[Geordie]

Farrell captain?  well it might be the making of him a it has been Hartley but for me somone who starts / gets into a fight in the tunnel before the game and who lets his temper get the better of him is no captain.

You do need a new one tho - someone with the nous to alter the tactics on the feild

fighting in the tunnel ?

Martin Johnson is hailed as a top captain yet he wasn't an angel...

[SecretFly]

Shush.....  

It's only a little problem.  Only a little one.

[Geordie]

Huge

[TJ]

Yes - fighting in the tunnel. after tha warm up as the teams went back into the dressing room he got involved in a scrap with Ryan Wilson. Not a lot in it but he looked like the aggressor. Its not the first time his temper has got the better of him.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/england-scotland-investigation-tunnel-scrap/

[SecretFly]

World Rugby should look into that.  I know people will say it's only a little skirmish and that's what it probably was but also a very footbally kind of image that shouldn't be tolerated before a ball has been kicked in anger.  No excuse for it.  Keep the bullschidt talk and taunts until the game itself (whoever started the bullschidting first)

[Geordie]

Not the first time there's been incidents in the tunnel.

It's nothing.

What happened on the itch is what mattered and that was great from Scotland and poor from Eng land

[No 7&1/2]

Yeah massive. 2 defeats in 26 suggests wholesale issues.

[mid_gen]

Farrell captain?  well it might be the making of him a it has been Hartley but for me somone who starts / gets into a fight in the tunnel before the game and who lets his temper get the better of him is no captain.

You do need a new one tho - someone with the nous to alter the tactics on the feild

Tactics weren't the problem. We were being outplayed, we had the wrong players on the pitch. Lawes and Hughes aren't breakdown operators, Robshaw was trying but it was him versus the whole Scottish back row.

We got parity as soon as Underhill came on, then promptly lost it when he got binned. If we weren't getting blasted off the tackle area all game it would have been a very different match.

Glad we didn't wait until NZ to get our back row found out. Credit to Scotland for identifying and attacking our weakness effectively.

[George Carlin]

I cannot see Jones completely changing the make-up of the pack for the France game.

Your recent win rate is still over 90%. Neither Camara nor Lauret offer the sort of poaching threat that Barclay or Watson do. I would like to see Underhill start though - I lost sight of him when he moved from the Ospreys but was always impressed with him when I did see him play. Does a yellow mean that you miss the next game? Can't remember but I hope not.

When the team is so completely off sorts, Jones could be forgiven for just pressing re-set on the whole tournament and justifiably sticking it in the box marked 'Abherration'. I can't work out whether it is good or bad for the players' development that Eddie always refuses to lay any blame at their door.

In terms of longer term planning, what this might do is make Jones structure a plan B for when the power game is not working and too much ball is being lost on the floor. Add Billy to a Robshaw and Underhill combination and the whole thing already looks better balanced. Robshaw is still an underrated player in my opinion and England plays much better when he is there.

[carpet baboon]

Was wiggy worth his place on the bench?
I think he has to bring Simpson in.

[catchweight]

Hopefully England have not peaked too early under Jones but there are concerns there. Our backrow without Billy V is consisntently coming 2nd best at the breakdown and I feel we are now relying to heavily on Farrell to win games for us.

We have have some key areas like half back where our first choice pairing isnt exactly on fire domestically. Ford works well with Farrell there assist him but on his own I dont think he a top fly half and hes not in great form. We havent got the backrown balance right and we arent doing well enough at ruck time. Thats something Jones needs to fix.

I do think we have players in the team that have just lost some form indvidully. Not playing especially badly, just not hitting the same levels as the last couple of years. How many of our starting team now are playing for club sides that have been eliminated early from Europe and are strugling in the Premiership?

Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Robshaw, Care, Ford, May, Brown are all playing in sides that are below half way in the Premiership and were dumped out of Europe in the pools. Its hard to step things up at the highest level when domestiically things arent going well. Has that seeped into the internationals?

Only Farrell, Vunipola, Itoje, Launchbury and Hughes are playing for sides in the top 4 I thinka and only the Saracens boys have made it (barely) into the quarter finals of the rugby championship.

[nathan]

Not sure why people are having knee jerk reactions and making wholesale changes. We've lost 2 games in the last 26. Only the all blacks have bettered that.

I'm glad they lost, reminds them not to take anything for granted

[nathan]

Yes - fighting in the tunnel.  after tha warm up as the teams went back into the dressing room he got involved in a scrap with Ryan Wilson.  Not a lot in it but he looked like the aggressor.  Its not the first time his temper has got the better of him.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/england-scotland-investigation-tunnel-scrap/

"looks like he was the aggressor"

Of course you are fully up to speed on what was said

[TJ]

Thats why I said " looks like" not "was" on the video clip you can see Farrell jostle someone then a few seconds later try to lamp someone. Of course we have no idea what was said but it certainly looks like Farrell made the first physical bit of aggression.

[TJ]

Farrell captain?  well it might be the making of him a it has been Hartley but for me somone who starts / gets into a fight in the tunnel before the game and who lets his temper get the better of him is no captain.

You do need a new one tho - someone with the nous to alter the tactics on the feild

Tactics weren't the problem. We were being outplayed, we had the wrong players on the pitch. Lawes and Hughes aren't breakdown operators, Robshaw was trying but it was him versus the whole Scottish back row.

We got parity as soon as Underhill came on, then promptly lost it when he got binned. If we weren't getting blasted off the tackle area all game it would have been a very different match.

Glad we didn't wait until NZ to get our back row found out. Credit to Scotland for identifying and attacking our weakness effectively.

Thats what I mean by tactics - England were not set up to deal with the way Scotland play in the forwards. Also England kicked the ball away far too much which played into scotlands hands

I think Englands real weakness is at captain. Jones changed the way they were playing at halftime. we saw much less kicking deep and keeping the ball in play in the second half going for lineouts instead. A good captain could have seen the pattern after 15/20 mins and altered it on the field rather than waiting till halftime to do it Or is the coaching dso prescriptive that the captain is not allowed to do this?

[No 7&1/2]

This is why looking at 1 game in isolation can lead you down the wrong path. Anyone watching that game with no knowledge of the teams would suggest that scotland were the guys ranked 2 in the world.

[mid_gen]

Farrell captain?  well it might be the making of him a it has been Hartley but for me somone who starts / gets into a fight in the tunnel before the game and who lets his temper get the better of him is no captain.

You do need a new one tho - someone with the nous to alter the tactics on the feild

Tactics weren't the problem. We were being outplayed, we had the wrong players on the pitch. Lawes and Hughes aren't breakdown operators, Robshaw was trying but it was him versus the whole Scottish back row.

We got parity as soon as Underhill came on, then promptly lost it when he got binned. If we weren't getting blasted off the tackle area all game it would have been a very different match.

Glad we didn't wait until NZ to get our back row found out. Credit to Scotland for identifying and attacking our weakness effectively.

Thats what I mean by tactics - England were not set up to deal with the way Scotland play in the forwards.  Also England kicked the ball away far too much which played into scotlands hands

I think Englands real weakness is at captain.  Jones changed the way they were playing at halftime.  we saw much less kicking deep and keeping the ball in play in the second half going for lineouts instead.  A good captain could have seen the pattern after 15/20 mins and altered it on the field rather than waiting till halftime to do it  Or is the coaching dso prescriptive that the captain is not allowed to do this?

That's not back captaincy issue, it's a 10 that can only play behind a dominant pack. Not a new problem either, Ford always goes missing in tight games, then everyone forgets when he takes apart a weak team with our pack on top.

Agree Farrell should be captain, he's made for it, and is in a position he can lead from.

[nathan]

I don't think you can merely look at it  game and say see. Look at 26 and judge. Look back after the wales Scotland match and see the amount of overreaction as well. I'd have either of them 2 players rather than a lock at 6 but I do think there's better around.

But how many of those 26 games have we been rattled...quite a few

Papered over the cracks.

Sort the back row
Hartley gone
Watson is never a full back..he can't tackle as a winger!!
Mako out Marler in
Consider Coles position aswell

Farrell captain. Only player who showed any fight and passion.

Or learnt how to win?

[Geordie]

Judging by Saturdays result and performance they have learnt nothing from the Ireland game where they were brutally exposed at the breakdown.

Whilst I agree knee jerk reactions are worthless, I do think the lack of leadership on the pitch was worrying.

Ive backed Hartleys spot in the side but I think there is a massive question mark over him now.

I also think Jones HAS to sort that back row out. End the 3 lock thing.

[LondonTiger]

Pretty much this issues we could have predicted, and did, are still there.

1) Back row - 3 locks not good, recall of unfit Hughes (hard to see what else coudl have been done at 8 though)
2) Hooker - we all know Hartley struggles to deserve a spot on playing, but George's major dip in form is another worry.
3) Full back - Brown is fading but liked, Watson is not the answer (though usually less tackling needed as a FB than a winger)


Not new problems, and the overall quality of the side means we can paper over the cracks more often than not.


What was a new issue this weekend was the appalling defence.

[TJ]

One aspect of why Englands defense looked so poor is the speed of the Scots play. Second try I think we took a quick lineout ( into a formed lineout) before England wer really ready, set a maul and went a long way forwards. That put England on the back foot and its always harder to defend then. England should have been prepared for that - Scotland do it a lot but england seemingly were suprised by it.

[LondonTiger]

Scots play was a key part in England's poor defence, but so was individual errors.

[LondonTiger]

Nathan Hughes will be a lot better for the gametime. He should also be released to play for Wasps this weekend to improve his match sharpness (that first carry where he set Johnny Gray on his arse seems so long ago now.)

Hartley is unlikely to be dropped, but Jones has to select just 3 of his four locks in the 23 and a back row that moves Robshaw back to 6 and brings in Underhill at 7. For me drop Kruis and put either Itoje or Lawes on the bench.

[Geordie]

Itoje looks lost at the moment. A shadow of last season.
Kruis similar.

Ireland will tear us a new one....

[No 7&1/2]

Or we get better and beat them. I'm betting on the latter.

[hugehandoff]

I fully agree with those saying that England's wins have papered over some flaws in the side. The performances have been scratchy for some time, except for the thrashing of Scotland last year, but the fact they kept winning meant the flaws were not being resolved. But I do sympathise with Eddie as he can only work with what he has (and yes for the non England fans I do accept we have more resources so I should not grumble, but I will anyway). Weaknesses are in our:
1.scrummaging....it has not been anything other than a holding job for a few years. Dan Coles is a Lions dirt tracker and not a top quality tighthead and he seems to have little impact. That is the cornerstone of the pack. But no one else has claimed the starting berth due to form or injuries.
2. I actually like Hartley, but it is very strange to keep hoiking your captain off when your team is in trouble. Why not at least start George and assess the difference?
3. We all know that the current backrow is just a make shift one, but the lack of a proper openside has hurt us for years. Underhill or Tom Curry could have assisted if injuries did not get in the way. I think Underhill must be backed now despite the stupid yellow. Robshaw back to 6 and Lawes on the bench.
4. The Ford and Farrell axis was only a stop gap due to injuries to others and it has proven to be very effective, but especially so when England's pack have some go forward. But Ford appears unable to sort things out when the forwards are coming 2nd best. That requires a real scrapper. Because of the success of Ford and Farrell, and injuries to others, we don't know our best midfield. I would like to see Farrell at 10 with T'eo and JJ as the centres and Ford on the bench. Manu as an option only as and when he proves he deserves it.
5. I was one of many calling for Brown to be dropped last year as he seemed unable to link in with his wingers, but I take that back now. We need his defensive brilliance.

So in defeat we learn more and hopefully the coaches can take a lot out of this. I thought as a coaching group they were slow to react. In Australia they removed Burrell after 25 minutes and I thought the Ford should have removed and T'eo brought on much earlier - at least by half time. Marler needed more time as well.

[Geordie]

That Ireland game was the one that worried me from the start of this championship.

After Scotland, i'm even more concerned.

[No 7&1/2]

People need to take a deep breath. Go look at the comments after wales Scotland. Now scotland are world beaters.

[RuggerRadge2611]

People need to take a deep breath. Go look at the comments after wales Scotland. Now scotland are world beaters.

We are not world beaters. Not yet. We are too inconsistent. However we are not a bad team and we were not all of a sudden bad when things didn't go our way in Cardiff.

Likewise because things didn't go England's way in Edinburgh, doesn't mean you are a bad team. Ford and Farrell were excellent in the first 2 games, and have been for some time. I'm not convinced Brown is as solid a defender as being made out since Jones was able to crash through both him and Watson.

I think I'd bump Nowell into the 1st XV somewhere, once Daly is back he should probably slot in at 15. Shift Robshaw to 6 in the pack and find a proper 7 from somewhere in the prem.

The team just needs tinkered with, not binned.

England's greatest problem appears to be at scrum half. Care was convinvingly outplayed by Laidlaw on Saturday.

[No 7&1/2]

That's the exact point rugger. For me we're the best team in the world right now. To pretend that an under par performance should result I'm us ripping up the script entirely is silly.

[beshocked]

Care is more suited to coming off the bench, his control isn't good enough IMO.

Wasn't convinced by him vs Wales either.

Also Wigglesworth is not an impact 9.


Hartley is fine as a set piece operator but he's not dynamic. I think he'll do just fine vs France but I am worried about him vs Ireland.

Itoje again looks out of form, I would not have started him.


Biggest change has to be Robshaw,Underhill,Hughes backrow to start vs France.

[BamBam]

People need to take a deep breath. Go look at the comments after wales Scotland. Now scotland are world beaters.

We are not world beaters. Not yet. We are too inconsistent. However we are not a bad team and we were not all of a sudden bad when things didn't go our way in Cardiff.

Likewise because things didn't go England's way in Edinburgh, doesn't mean you are a bad team. Ford and Farrell were excellent in the first 2 games, and have been for some time. I'm not convinced Brown is as solid a defender as being made out since Jones was able to crash through both him and Watson.

I think I'd bump Nowell into the 1st XV somewhere, once Daly is back he should probably slot in at 15. Shift Robshaw to 6 in the pack and find a proper 7 from somewhere in the prem.

The team just needs tinkered with, not binned.

England's greatest problem appears to be at scrum half. Care was convinvingly outplayed by Laidlaw on Saturday.

I think most have agreed that Brown is holding on to his place and has been for a while. Jones try showed why Brown may no longer be the answer, but also why Watson is not necessarily the man who should replace him at FB. Brown was just outpaced, and we know he hasn't got the pure gas that most international outside backs possess.

Equally, Watson showed his defensive weakness - he had the speed to make up the considerable distance on Jones, but once there, he went far too high with his tackle and was bumped off very efficiently by Jones who had the momentum to go over the line.

Is Daly a better defender at 15? I'm not sure, I would imagine he'd be great at cover tackles and is unlikely to get burnt for pace, but is he any better at the head on tackles? I'd also like to see him play there for his club, mainly due to positioning in the kicking game (having said that, he is usually well positioned when playing at wing so its not massively different)

100% agree with those who think the team just needs tinkering with rather than wholesale changes. My primary change would be bringing Underhill in and dropping a lock - that alone will have a massive impact imo. Just a real shame that Tom Curry was injured as I think he may well have sewn up the 7 spot if fit

[SecretFly]

Eddie was graceful in public. It's a sure fire bet he'll be furious in private.
So, will an angry Eddie pour more extra heavy training onto players he's annoyed with or will he have the good sense to lay off on the intensity for a while and let the players do their energy expending on the field of play?

This is a dangerous time for Jones - because this is the time when he starts getting at players and players can take so much but not too much. That dressing room support for a character like Eddie - well, this is a period when that might get tested.

[TightHEAD]

I think this is what England needed, since the Summer tour of 2016 we have been hanging on to the believe that we were turning into world beaters, Dublin last year was just a blip but in truth we have been lucky on a number of occasions.

We are not a bad team and the weekends loss doesn't make us one, but we clearly have some issues to address. Ford is nowhere near the form he showed a season or two ago, Lawes an Itoje are not flankers at this level, yes they can fill in if required but we must start specialist players in the correct positions.

We don't look like a team that can think for itself when things don't go our way, we can't play smart rugby, we lose the ball to often at the breakdown as we don't commit enough players, on one occasion we had May and Care trying to secure the ball with forwards stood around watching!!! and we also fail to keep the score board ticking over at crucial times of the game, a drop goal attempt or a dink over the top or grubber here and there will keep the opposition thinking.

For me Hartley, Brown, JJ, Ford and Cole are all hanging on to their shirt by a thread. Eddie needs to be ruthless in training over the next two weeks.

[TJ]

Brown was not just outpaced for that try. He went for a smother tackle / to dislodge the ball. He could have made a classic round the legs tackle and Jones would not have been able to drive the last few yards to the line. To me thats a coaching issue - going for the league type tackles not the classic union tackle

[carpet baboon]

As beshocked said wiggy isn't an impact sub. If he's in the team he starts.
As an Irishman I would be happy to see him on the bench as I know when he comes on he won't make any dramatic difference.
It must be time for Eddie to call up Simpson

[propdavid_london]

Pretty much this issues we could have predicted, and did, are still there.

1) Back row - 3 locks not good, recall of unfit Hughes (hard to see what else coudl have been done at 8 though)
2) Hooker - we all know Hartley struggles to deserve a spot on playing, but George's major dip in form is another worry.
3) Full back - Brown is fading but liked, Watson is not the answer (though usually less tackling needed as a FB than a winger)


Not new problems, and the overall quality of the side means we can paper over the cracks more often than not.


What was a new issue this weekend was the appalling defence.

Agree to all of that LT.
I was at the game and really surprised at how the defence collapsed.

To your points above -
1) Who do we bring in to resolve the issue. Haskell hasn't been great for club. Hughes did look off the pace and not fit. Underhill despite the high tackle perhaps should have started over Lawes.
2) Hartley wont be dropped for the 6N. But I would like to see LCD or Dunn come in. (someone who is hungry)
3) Defence got even worse when Watson (the fan favourite for long-term 15) moved to the back. Flakey under the high ball! Brown wasn't having a great game but he was solid at the back. I honestly don't know who would be better coming in here as EJ hasn't really tried other options.


Well documented injuries before the 6N - Our 'Finishers' had less of an impact than we were expecting, unable to change a game or up the gears.
So, for the future if we had - Sinkler, Genge, George/LCD, Itoje, Hughes/Simmonds, Care/Robson, Teo, Nowell coming off the bench they would up the energy levels.
The good news is that we can get a bench like that back - although perhaps not before the end of 6N.

Thoughts -
The whole team looked to be deliberately slowing the game in the 1st half - opposite of our tactics in other games - presumably a strategy that was discussed prior to KO.
EJ may well decide to continue with the 3 locks option as we have fewer options available and no real breakdown specialist.
Overall fitness looked to be an issue - end of the welsh game it looked to me that England were the worse for wear. Definitely showed against Scots. Players looked tired - is this a result of Eddies high intensity training taking a measure?

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