England Six Nations Thread

[ChequeredJersey]

First topic message reminder :

In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell

Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench

[propdavid_london]

As beshocked said wiggy isn't an impact sub. If he's in the team he starts.
As an Irishman I would be happy to see him on the bench as I know when he comes on he won't make any dramatic difference.
It must be time for Eddie to call up Simpson

Robson is the man he needs in - surely?

[beshocked]

Problem with Simpson is I personally feel his game control is worse than Care's.

Sure he might be exciting but I feel like his flaws have prevented Jones from looking at him.

If England are to call up a 9 I think it should probably be Robson though England don't exactly have a vast array of top quality 9s waiting in the wings.

Spencer got outplayed by Harrison on the weekend IMO, Harrison isn't top class either.

[TJ]

Its funny isn't it. Scotland really have few choices to make over who plays were But England seem to get lost in selection with too many choices?

IE Scotland really don't have a big ball carrying back row ( bar Denton who is flawed) so start without one. England decide they need a big ball carrying backrow so pick the one they think is best.

too much choice a bad thing?

[beshocked]

propdavid_london more difficult for our bench to up the gears when you are down to 14 men for 10 minutes in the 65th to 75th minute.

[Geordie]

EJ may well decide to continue with the 3 locks option as we have fewer options available and no real breakdown specialist.

Prop David, we DO have options. I know i'm like a broken down record player but there is Mark Wilson, Gary Graham who are far more effective flankers than Lawes is.
Why were they not considered?? At least until the more favoured flank options return.

[No 7&1/2]

Depends how strong the coaching team is. They seem to know exactly what they want but the house allows for us fans to have more discussions! I can't see him bringing in Robson. For whatever reason he's not rated. Care looks a country mile better from the bench but Wigglesworth is a big step down for me. Away to France he may well decide cares kicking ain't good enough and if that's the case wigglesworth is worth his place. I feel you'll see a different mindset in the pack in the coming 2 games anyway, though I do still want us to move away from 3 locks.

[carpet baboon]

As beshocked said wiggy isn't an impact sub. If he's in the team he starts.
As an Irishman I would be happy to see him on the bench as I know when he comes on he won't make any dramatic difference.
It must be time for Eddie to call up Simpson

Robson is the man he needs in - surely?

Yes your quite right it is Robson

[Geordie]

Problem with Simpson is I personally feel his game control is worse than Care's.

Sure he might be exciting but I feel like his flaws have prevented Jones from looking at him.

If England are to call up a 9 I think it should probably be Robson though England don't exactly have a vast array of top quality 9s waiting in the wings.

Spencer got outplayed by Harrison on the weekend IMO, Harrison isn't top class either.

Michael Young Is playing better than I have ever seen him, and ive been a massive critic of his.

However, I don't think knee jerk reactions are required.

The only change that we should make for france is to drop the lock at 6 decision.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Hughes

Post 6n...the Hartley and Brown need to be looked at.

I also think Cole is need of a rest. He's played an insane amount of rugby over the last year etc. Give Williams a run out.

[SecretFly]

Its funny isn't it.  Scotland really have few choices to make over who plays were  But England seem to get lost in selection with too many choices?

IE Scotland really don't have a big ball carrying back row ( bar Denton who is flawed) so start without one.  England decide they need a big ball carrying backrow so pick the one they think is best.

too much choice a bad thing?

God Jesus! Will people stop pointing out these things to England. Let them find their own way. Too much choice is a GOOD thing - and I hope it keeps confusing them right up until after the last weekend of the 6N.

[beshocked]

Geordiefalcon completely agree.

That's the backrow I would have started vs Scotland.

I'd drop Itoje to the bench too.

[LondonTiger]

Michael Young Is playing better than I have ever seen him, and ive been a massive critic of his.

Forever more I will accuse you of starting a Micky Young for England campaign

[Geordie]

Michael Young Is playing better than I have ever seen him, and ive been a massive critic of his.  

Forever more I will accuse you of starting a Micky Young for England campaign

oh dear lord please don't do that...I was merely highlighting that there is a EQ SH in good form in a winning top 4 side.

[BamBam]

Brown was not just outpaced for that try.  He went for a smother tackle / to dislodge the ball.  He could have made a classic round the legs tackle and Jones would not have been able to drive the last few yards to the line.  To me thats a coaching issue - going for the league type tackles not the classic union tackle

Think this was in reply to me .. Possibly, but I don't think Brown would have got near him if Watson hadn't already hit him at that point - he was more desperately reaching rather than actively controlling the way he wanted to tackle, but I don't disagree that he should have gone for the legs once Watson was looking like he was going high

[Geordie]

I have to say...I think Watsons defence was shown up on Saturday.

Im not sure any of these are the answer....maybe its time to look elsewhere.
What about Haley, Pennel etc

[propdavid_london]

Beshocked - This is true, the card was bad timing. And its difficult to make an impact, but not impossible. The game was thoroughly bossed by the Scots pack. You almost feel it would have taken a maverick player to have made a difference - someone that would try something different, and there wasn't one on the bench. (A fresh Danny Care coming on, sniping the fringes for instance or an Eliot Daly).

GF - You are quite right, there are genuine back row alternatives but for whatever reason Eddie favours Lawes in the back row. There have been a few games in the past where England have 'gotten away' with it. Eddie interchanged Itoje and Lawes in the back row last year too and he was coming away with results. This game for England was every bit as bad as when Pocock and Hooper picked apart the England breackdown in the WC - something needs to get sorted there.

Not seen much club stuff lately so haven't seen Graham, Mark Wilson looks like that kind of no nonsense player that would just have gotten stuck in. Both have been in the EPS squads haven't they - so there must be some 'work ons' from Eddie?

[propdavid_london]

I have to say...I think Watsons defence was shown up on Saturday.

Im not sure any of these are the answer....maybe its time to look elsewhere.
What about Haley, Pennel etc

Agree - both have been out of the set up for a while now haven't they?
Eddie flirted with Lozowski at 15 in the Argentina tour didn't he?

[beshocked]

That's really scraping the barrell Geordiefalcon.

Despite England's depth in players we don't exactly having players screaming out to be called up.

I wonder if Max Malins could be a player to look at in the summer/AIs/next year's 6 nations as a potential full back.

Thought his 2 tries late on to Leicester, showed great acceleration and footwork. Needs gametime though.

[BamBam]

That's really scraping the barrell Geordiefalcon.

Despite England's depth in players we don't exactly having players screaming out to be called up.

I wonder if Max Malins could be a player to look at in the summer/AIs/next year's 6 nations as a potential full back.

Thought his 2 tries late on to Leicester, showed great acceleration and footwork. Needs gametime though.

Giggle giggle

[beshocked]

Bambam you don't think Malins looks like a potential interesting prospect?

England do have a lack of depth at 15, is that not obvious to you?

Instead of sniggering like a child perhaps you can contribute something constructive for once?

[No 7&1/2]

Saracens do tend to be a bit more cautious in throwing their young backs in. Malins tomkins spencer earle to a lesser extent lozowski have all struggled to cement a run of starts when everyone is available. Hard to say that a player will take to international rugby when they're seen in glimpses.

[SecretFly]

Forwoth Idsworth is a smashing player with the Rotherham Titans. Eddie should try him.

[BamBam]

Bambam you don't think Malins looks like a potential interesting prospect?

England do have a lack of depth at 15, is that not obvious to you?

Instead of sniggering like a child perhaps you can contribute something constructive for once?

He is a potential interesting prospect. I do think England have a lack of depth at 15.

I sniggered like a child at the irony of calling out GF for scraping the barrel then suggesting Malins. Is that not scraping the barrel? Or does that not apply as he plays for your favourite team and hasn't yet turned you down for an autograph

I also have posted plenty about the game above and on the match thread - if you want to make ridiculous comments like the above, then expect to be ridiculed accordingly.

[propdavid_london]

Pennell I feel has missed the boat - very unfortunate for him, but his time was when he was having to choose between club and country - and he chose club....

Haley was a prospect way back but had a series of unfortunate injuries.

For me Brown of last year is what England needs. A defensive rock in the tackle and under the highball with a decent brain and clearance kick. On counter he can truck it up as much as breaking the tackle.

When Brown went off it looked to me that Scotland started putting more bombs on Watson at 15 - and it payed off.

Monty for SA wasn't eh fastest or most explosive of counter attackers. But he had a great positioning a massive boot and his team could play more expansively knowing there was someone mopping up at the back.

[propdavid_london]

Who offers that in the Aviva Prem at the moment?

[LondonTiger]

Plus has Malins played at full back?

He is an exciting prospect but not one that should be mentioned in England discussions just yet.

[Geordie]

Bambam you don't think Malins looks like a potential interesting prospect?

England do have a lack of depth at 15, is that not obvious to you?

Instead of sniggering like a child perhaps you can contribute something constructive for once?

He does look interesting, but lets see how he develops in the Prem and Euro games for Saracens.

Haley was the next big thing at FB and has almost disappeared with out trace.
Theres no major stand outs at the moment. Which is maybe forcing Eddie Jones hand at the moment with Brown.

[beshocked]

Bambam I am not suggesting England call up Malins now. He has to prove himself but he has the potential to put himself on the England radar.

It's not ridiculous to suggest an U20s England player is a potential future prospect.

Well yes you could argue it's scraping the barrell but England don't exactly have many options.


Geordiefalcon I agree but Haley wasn't a U20 player. He's not been an age grade player who has been followed.


Londontiger yes he has - admittedly more at 10 but he has. Well with FB prospects being what they are, who else should be in the discussion?

[BamBam]

Haley has played for the Saxons, so has clearly been noticed. I'm not ridiculing Malins as a prospect, I'm ridiculing you for dismissing GF's suggestion then in the next line seriously proposing Malins as a superior alternative

[propdavid_london]

And our current U20s didn't have the best game against the Scots either!

[beshocked]

Bambam that's just your bitterness coming out.

I am just saying there's a lack of options at 15 and because of this, Malins potentially comes into contention.

Of course there's a lot he has to prove and I wouldn't mention if there were numerous other prospects.

Do you think Pennell or Haley should be called up?

[robbo277]

We have to go for broke against France. I'd start Watson at full back with May and Nowell on the wings. It may invite France to kick to our back 3, but if they get their kicks wrong it will play into our hands.

Depending on how it goes and how the table is looking, we can always bring back Brown for Ireland at home, who have a more precise kicking game with Murray and Sexton at halfback.

I wouldn't say we should be in a rush to replace Brown permanently who is still right up there in terms of full backs, and we should only replace him if someone is markedly better. But we have 4 strong "full back" options in May, Nowell, Watson and Brown (as they have been termed in every squad announcement this year), and for the France game alone I'd say we're in better shape with Brown on the bench.

The other guys getting named as full backs in squads who could do a job for England at 15 are Earle and Mallinder, but I don't think either are ready to be thrust into International rugby.

[LondonTiger]

And our current U20s didn't have the best game against the Scots either!

They didn't, in part due to Scottish ferocity, in part due to the number of changes and the number of people drafted in from outside the squad. Not sure if the selectors were taking a Scottish side that was well beaten by Wales and France too lightly, or are looking at the "long game", but 20 debutants across 3 matches is quite high.

[beshocked]

Earle was truly awful vs Tigers. Worst player on the pitch IMO. Not sure about H.Mallinder but I don't think he's ready either.

[BamBam]

Bambam that's just your bitterness coming out.

I am just saying there's a lack of options at 15 and because of this, Malins potentially comes into contention.

Of course there's a lot he has to prove and I wouldn't mention if there were numerous other prospects.

Do you think Pennell or Haley should be called up?

Well obviously, I'm just bitter because you completely miss the irony of your own comments. No, I don't think Pennell or Haley should be called up, but if the only 3 options are the two of them or Malins, I know Malins is at the back of the queue.

I favour Watson, Daly or Nowell, but recognise the problems with each of them as a full back.

[Geordie]

What about Alex Tait

[robbo277]

Earle was truly awful vs Tigers. Worst player on the pitch IMO. Not sure about H.Mallinder but I don't think he's ready either.

I agree, but these are the guys Eddie is turning to. The most recent squad included:

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Nathan Earle (Saracens), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins - apprentice player), Harry Mallinder (Northampton), Jonny May (Leicester), Denny Solomona (Sale), Anthony Watson (Bath) as well as Jack Nowell, who has been named as an inside back and an outside back alternatively throughout the tournament (and used exclusively on the wing).

If Brown went down injured he'd possibly do what he's done with Wigglesworth and bring in Goode as a guy who can hit the ground running as a short-term fix. But his squad picks suggest he's looking at replacing Brown later rather than sooner.

[beshocked]

Malins might be at the back of the queue at the moment but if he gets some gametime he could potentially move into a good position by summer/ais.

Of course it's a big if but with a lack of outstanding candidates, there's an opportunity for someone.

It's not irony when I know there's a lack of depth and it shows that when Malins is potentially an option.

I said there's a lack of options. We have to look who can emerge as a contender.

We've got a lack of specialist 15s. Those who are specialist 15s aren't really on radar.

Watson,Daly and Nowell have primarily been utilised in other positions at international level.

Malins isn't a specialist 15 either. You have to assume Watson,Daly and Nowell will be utilised by Jones as wingers so we have to look at other players.



I haven't watched that much of H.Mallinder this season but yet to be convinced his defence is club quality yet alone international quality.

[BamBam]

Excellent, I look forward to 1.5 years of Malins should be in the England squad debates.

[LondonTiger]

What about Alex Tait

Not even the best full back in his family

[Geordie]

What about Alex Tait

Not even the best full back in his family

Ah he surpassed Matt long ago.

[beshocked]

Excellent, I look forward to 1.5 years of Malins should be in the England squad debates.

If he actually gets game time and plays well then sure but if not, then he won't warrant discussion.

You don't hear me asking for Spencer or Lozowski - they don't currently warrant call ups.

[doctor_grey]

What about Alex Tait

Not even the best full back in his family

I know. There is a one legged 80 year old dude in that family..............

[hugehandoff]

Some talk here on some of the England players being below par and in need of a rest. Ireland with their central contracts have restricted some of their Lions to 4/5 hours of club rugby whereas Itoje and Lawes have played 12/13. It will make a difference. With that in mind and jumping ahead a wee bit who would you leave at home during the 3 test tour of South Africa in the summer? Who would really benefit from some rest and a proper pre-season? And who should go on tour? I would rest some Lions who have played lots of rugby this season. Others who have been out with injuries probably need to play. Plus we still want the momentum from winning so need to try and take a very strong squasd whilst still looking after some key individuals prior to a huge season next season.

Stay behind and rest: Itoje, Lawes, Cole, Farrell, Mako, JJ,

Go on the tour: Billy V, Manu, T'eo, Hughes, Kruis, Ford, George (needs to start at 2), Daly (let's see how he fares at 15), Sinckler, Launchbury

Any other thoughts?

[englishborn]

Mike Haley would not be a bad option at full back.

[Geordie]

Just watching the highlights of the prem games this week..and Mercer singled out for praise.
The interesting term was "industrious"...that's a good thing as that was a side of his game that he had to work on.

Christian Wade was electric as usual.

[Geordie]

England head coach Eddie Jones has named 27 players to be involved in training camps this week.

19 players will convene in Oxford on Tuesday for a short camp until Thursday with the remaining eight players taking part in mini regional camps at Leicester Tigers, Pennyhill Park, Saracens and Wasps.

The focus of the camps will be on reconditioning rather than rugby training.

England next face France in Paris on Saturday 10 March in what will be their fourth fixture of the NatWest 6 Nations.

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins) - Pennyhill Park
Danny Care (Harlequins) - Pennyhill Park
Elliot Daly (Wasps) - Oxford
Owen Farrell (Saracens) - Oxford
George Ford (Leicester Tigers) - Oxford
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby) - Oxford
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers) - Oxford
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs) - Oxford
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) - Oxford
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby) - Oxford
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens) - Saracens

Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers) - Tigers
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) - Oxford
Jamie George (Saracens) - Oxford
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) - Oxford
James Haskell (Wasps) - Oxford
Nathan Hughes (Wasps) - Oxford
Maro Itoje (Saracens) - Oxford
George Kruis (Saracens) - Oxford
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) - Oxford
Joe Launchbury (Wasps) - Wasps
Joe Marler (Harlequins) - Pennyhill Park
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins) - Pennyhill Park
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) - Oxford
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby) - Oxford
Mako Vunipola (Saracens) - Saracens
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs) - Oxford

[No 7&1/2]

Wilson been cited. He'll get a ban too.

[Geordie]

Wilson been cited. He'll get a ban too.

Mark Wilson?

[Geordie]

So a reconditioning camp...?

Is that another beasting session? Or will they be sensible...

Should they not be working on fixing certain areas from Saturday...

[No 7&1/2]

Ryan. Sorry no scotland england thread anymore. Contact with eyes on Hughes.

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