England Six Nations Thread

by ChequeredJersey Tue 13 Feb 2018, 5:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell

Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench

by No 7&1/2 Fri 02 Mar 2018, 10:12 am

Ha. He's had critics around weight especially for a while. He's been our best forward for about 18 months for me. Really kicked on when given the chance by Jones.

by robbo277 Fri 02 Mar 2018, 1:09 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Can any one tell me reallistictly, how many points England would need to score out of the last 2 games, to retain the title? And is the amount of points achievable?

We basically need to beat France by around +15 with a TBP and Ireland by +8 to deny them a bonus point. If we do that and Ireland beat Scotland narrowly without a bonus point, we'll win the Championship.

Scotland winning against Ireland would do us a favour. If Scotland win without a bonus point, beating France and Ireland might be enough on its own.

by **George Carlin** Fri 02 Mar 2018, 1:53 pm

robbo277 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Can any one tell me reallistictly, how many points England would need to score out of the last 2 games, to retain the title? And is the amount of points achievable?

We basically need to beat France by around +15 with a TBP and Ireland by +8 to deny them a bonus point. If we do that and Ireland beat Scotland narrowly without a bonus point, we'll win the Championship.

Scotland winning against Ireland would do us a favour. If Scotland win without a bonus point, beating France and Ireland might be enough on its own.

Okay, okay - we'll do it. But only because you asked nicely.

by nathan Fri 02 Mar 2018, 2:19 pm

robbo277 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Can any one tell me reallistictly, how many points England would need to score out of the last 2 games, to retain the title? And is the amount of points achievable?

We basically need to beat France by around +15 with a TBP and Ireland by +8 to deny them a bonus point. If we do that and Ireland beat Scotland narrowly without a bonus point, we'll win the Championship.

Scotland winning against Ireland would do us a favour. If Scotland win without a bonus point, beating France and Ireland might be enough on its own.

Where would scotland be though, haven't they only lost one game?

by TJ Fri 02 Mar 2018, 2:32 pm

scotland do not have enough bonus points or points difference to really challenge. I think we have to beat Ireland and Italy by a gazzillion points and hope no one else gets any bonus points to win the championship

by SecretFly Fri 02 Mar 2018, 2:42 pm

Oh so people are putting in requests here?

Oh right. So I'd like to say hello to everyone that knows me and I'd like France to make it easy for us. Beat England and then all we have to worry about is trying to beat Scotland to get dee title! Yahoo

Of course.......... it's the other way round though. We have to beat Scotland first and then England will know they can't sit back any against France. Damn it. Why don't you all just hoist the white flag now and agree to let us win?

by hugehandoff Sat 03 Mar 2018, 5:32 am

Ahh....requests. day 3 stuck in Belfast and hoping to get home to London today. Thought I would go to Ravenhill last night but that was cancelled as well.

Surprised not more of the England are not released for club action this weekend? Why not Daly, Haskell, Hughes etc. They need game time.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 03 Mar 2018, 10:41 am

hugehandoff wrote:Ahh....requests. day 3 stuck in Belfast and hoping to get home to London today. Thought I would go to Ravenhill last night but that was cancelled as well.

Surprised not more of the England are not released for club action this weekend? Why not Daly, Haskell, Hughes etc. They need game time.

Been stuck in Edinburgh since Wednesday. Cannot leave today, hope to leave tomorrow.

by TJ Sat 03 Mar 2018, 1:37 pm

You can check out any time you want but you can never leave

by No 7&1/2 Sun 04 Mar 2018, 5:07 pm

What do we do with 8. Simmonds looked busy coming back probably holds more overall fitness than Hughes.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 04 Mar 2018, 5:16 pm

TJ wrote:You can check out any time you want but you can never leave

Hotel Lealiifano

by thomh Mon 05 Mar 2018, 10:30 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do we do with 8. Simmonds looked busy coming back probably holds more overall fitness than Hughes.

He must do, you'd think. Only missed two games of rugby, and covered ground to make that brilliant tackle on Goode behind the tryline that indirectly secured them the game.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 05 Mar 2018, 10:33 am

I'd be tempted to go Simmons, Underhill, Hughes.

by Poorfour Mon 05 Mar 2018, 11:24 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd be tempted to go Simmons, Underhill, Hughes.

Well, I'd support you in saying we should stop playing locks at 6, and I'd certainly be happy to see all 3 in the 23, assuming Simmonds is properly fit.

by robbo277 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 11:35 am

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Eddie started Hughes. He likes his big ball carrying 8s. Simmonds or Underhill could come in at 7 with the other on the bench. Robshaw is a shoo-in at 6 or 7, and it will be interesting to see if Jones persists with his triple-lock line-up or uses a genuine back row player now he has the options.

Eddie Jones has never actually started a series with 3 locks when Robshaw and Haskell have both been available. Injury has forced his hand a couple of times, and it definitely seems that Jones would rather have 3 locks now than someone he deems a substandard flanker (Wood, Harrison and Clifford probably all fall into this bracket now - none of them have featured for a year).

Flankers under Eddie Jones
2016 Six Nations: Robshaw and Haskell. Clifford on the bench.
2016 Summer tour: Robshaw and Haskell. Harrison in T3 when Haskell was injured. Hooked after 30 and Itoje played 6. Clifford used off bench a couple of times, but only when we went for a 6/2 split.
2016 Autumn series: Haskell injured. Robshaw and Wood. Harrison got a run against Fiji and a couple of bench appearances.
2017 Six Nations: Robshaw injured, Haskell lacking match fitness). Itoje wore 6 (Lawes played 6) and Wood/Clifford and finally Haskell at 7. Harrison unused, Wood benched when Haskell returned to the team.
2017 Summer tour: Haskell, Itoje and Lawes all with Lions. 4 genuine flankers in Wilson, Curry, Robshaw and Underhill all got starts in Argentina.
2017 Autumn series: Haskell injured. Robshaw and Underhill started. We went 3 locks against Australia when Underhill went off injured and stayed that way against Samoa. Simmonds was in the squad all 3 games but played exclusively at 8.

I don't think 3 locks is ideologically how Jones wants to line-up, it will just depend whether with 4 genuine back row options fit (5 with Haskell), he thinks he has a strong enough combination in there.

If I had to bet on what Jones will do, based on past behaviour I would think:
Launchbury, Lawes/Itoje, Robshaw, Underhill, Hughes - with Itoje/Lawes and Simmonds on the bench. His benched lock would be covering 4-7 and Simmonds almost being reserved to swap Hughes out after 55-65 minutes, depending on how he's going.

Second most likely option I think would be to go with Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes with Underhill and Simmonds on the bench.

Finally, it being France and him expecting a forward battle, we could see a 6/2 bench with a Kruis also being in the squad, either with a 9 and Nowell/Daly on the bench or a 9 and Te'o and Nowell or Daly starting at 13. I think these options are less likely, but still possible.

by lostinwales Mon 05 Mar 2018, 12:02 pm

I don't think Clifford is necessarily deemed substandard, although he may be slipping down the pecking order with the emergence of Underhill and Simmonds.

He's still injured anyway isn't he? Doesn't seem to have played for ages.

by robbo277 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 12:13 pm

lostinwales wrote:I don't think Clifford is necessarily deemed substandard, although he may be slipping down the pecking order with the emergence of Underhill and Simmonds.

He's still injured anyway isn't he? Doesn't seem to have played for ages.

I'm not 100% sure.

The 2017 Six Nations was odd for flankers.

England went Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Wood, Hughes + Harrison, Haskell against France. Harrison wasn't used and Haskell came on for Launchbury
Then Clifford got promoted above Wood for Wales and we went Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Clifford, Hughes + Wood, Haskell. Clifford got withdrawn after 48 minutes.
Haskell was deemed fully fit for week 3 and came back into the starting line-up. Wood and Clifford both sat on the bench. Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Hughes + Clifford, Wood. Wood came on for Haskell with Clifford coming on for Hughes.
Vunipola then returned to fitness (ish) for week 4 and came onto the bench, with Clifford dropping out. Clifford didn't feature against Ireland.

Clifford got 48 minutes at flanker, 9 minutes at 8 and then came out of the squad for another number 8. If Eddie didn't see enough in his 48 minutes to keep him as our back-up flanker over Wood when Vunipola returned, I'm not sure if he'll come back in as a flanker again, especially as Wood hasn't been seen since.

As an 8, he was third choice last year and is now probably 4th or 5th, with Simmonds a real option and Mercer coming through too.

by lostinwales Mon 05 Mar 2018, 12:18 pm

The emergence of Simmonds as if from nowhere has been a real bonus this year. It is great to have another player over whom the only real argument is where to play him.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:03 pm

As far as back row candidates go, Jones also had Sam Jones and Josh Beaumont involved with some of his early squads. Not sure how good Jones would have been in a Test back row but his judo training injury closed down a line of experimentation which has only just re-opened with Underhill & Simmonds.

Was never entirely convinced by Beaumont but he, like Clifford, was a different kind of eight to Vunipola, Hughes, or even Morgan, for that matter. Again, it's taken the best part of two years to get other types of number eight in contention again, with Mercer, Simmonds and potentially the other guys of they can stay fit.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:04 pm

I'm obviously way behind and this is probably not on topic.exactly but how did hardie get away with a 3 month ban for cocaine while Stevens got 2 years? I'm. Starting to think it's just the rfu who play with a straight bat with bans.

by SecretFly Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:14 pm

Hardie's stash wasn't as pure?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Mar 2018, 1:20 pm

Not sure if this was posted anywhere:

Head coach Eddie Jones has named a 33-man squad to begin preparations for England’s next NatWest 6 Nations match against France in Paris (Saturday 10 March KO 4:45pm).

The 24 players who were involved in this week’s training camps across the country, as well as apprentice Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), will train at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday.

The remaining eight players will join up with the squad on Sunday at Pennyhill Park.

England have beaten Italy 46-15 and Wales 12-6 so far in the tournament, but lost to 13-25 to Scotland last time out to sit in the table going into round four.

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins)*, Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins)*, Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

by Poorfour Mon 05 Mar 2018, 2:22 pm

lostinwales wrote:I don't think Clifford is necessarily deemed substandard, although he may be slipping down the pecking order with the emergence of Underhill and Simmonds.

He's still injured anyway isn't he? Doesn't seem to have played for ages.

Clifford had surgery on a shoulder injury, came back, played several games for Quins looking back to his best, I think was even in the provisional training squad, and then subluxated the same shoulder. He's due back in a couple of weeks. We won't know where he stands with Eddie until we've seen him put a run of games together. If he lasts to the end of the season, and shows some form, he could come back into the reckoning for the summer.

What he does have over the other candidates is versatility. He's got similar pace to Mercer and Simmonds, but more experience of playing across the back row and he's tall enough to be a credible lineout jumper. The main thing that counts against him is that we have never seen him fully fit for England; he was nursing the shoulder injury even when he won his caps.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 2:29 pm

He was so good at the start of the season. Needs luck with injuries. A bit like vunipola and Tuilagi.

by propdavid_london Mon 05 Mar 2018, 3:03 pm

On a plus side - Simmonds and Sinkler both looked to have good games when used off the bench.

by Geordie Mon 05 Mar 2018, 3:27 pm

Simmonds looked good as a starter as well..

by robbo277 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 4:37 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Not sure if this was posted anywhere:

Head coach Eddie Jones has named a 33-man squad to begin preparations for England’s next NatWest 6 Nations match against France in Paris (Saturday 10 March KO 4:45pm).

The 24 players who were involved in this week’s training camps across the country, as well as apprentice Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), will train at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday.

The remaining eight players will join up with the squad on Sunday at Pennyhill Park.

England have beaten Italy 46-15 and Wales 12-6 so far in the tournament, but lost to 13-25 to Scotland last time out to sit in the table going into round four.

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins)*, Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins)*, Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Not really much in there that changes the questions we've been asking. You'd guess Sinckler, Ewels, Mercer, Smith, Ibitoye, Lozowski and Solomona will all be cut, it's who gets cut after that which will start to give some clues on his thinking. A few big names will miss out on the 23 altogether, possibly Kruis, Haskell and one of Daly or Nowell.

by lostinwales Mon 05 Mar 2018, 4:51 pm

Shouldn't really bring the scrum half thing up but we don't really have back up. Pretty much every other position I can think of there is at least cover in the extended squad if there isn't in the reduced squad shown here.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 5:27 pm

Hope sinckler comes back in tbh. Huge step up from williams. Seeing as Robson appears completely off the radar I'm hoping youngs gets back as quick as possible.

by robbo277 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 5:46 pm

lostinwales wrote:Shouldn't really bring the scrum half thing up but we don't really have back up. Pretty much every other position I can think of there is at least cover in the extended squad if there isn't in the reduced squad shown here.

I believe Jones has said he doesn't like picking 3 because it reduces opportunities in training. If you think every drill will probably need one scrum-half, you go from each scrum-half getting 50% of the time in his actual position to 33% of the time. Other positions can interchange more, because that's more likely to happen in the game, but 90% of the time it will be your scrum-half passing the ball to first receiver.

He could bring in a third and just make them hold the shields or fill in on the wing, similar to the third-choice goalie in football tournaments who invariably ends up at left-back in training matches. At least then someone would be able to learn the calls and the patterns, even if he was released every week on Tuesday back to his club.

I assume what is also true that he's not saying is that he doesn't rate anyone else, as if he did it might be a sacrifice worth making. The fact that Maunder got a quick look in on tour and now Wigglesworth has come in for Youngs, Jones doesn't think there are many positive options out there, and has just brought in Wigglesworth as a short-term measure to tide him over until Youngs returns. If there was an outstanding third choice scrum half (in his opinion), it might be worth investing training time in one.

He sent Robson and Young to South Africa with the Saxons, and neither have had much of a look since. Nor has he used Simpson, who has England caps. He did recall Maunder to a training camp earlier in the year, but it seems he's sent him back with work-ons.

by robbo277 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 5:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hope sinckler comes back in tbh. Huge step up from williams. Seeing as Robson appears completely off the radar I'm hoping youngs gets back as quick as possible.

I think Williams has had a positive impact when he has come on in games so far. He's definitely been throwing himself into tackles and rucks, even if he doesn't have Sinckler's carrying game. I'd say he has looked more effective than Cole around the park, although that may be because he's appearing later in games against more tired and/or weaker players.

Who's the better scrummager between Williams and Sinckler? With France's front row stocks, we'll probably need to stay strong in this area for the whole 80.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 6:36 pm

For me sinckler. Didn't see him at the weekend but thought he was actually pushing to be better than cole and on the way up. Obviously adds more around the park. Williams for me is a but meh in the scrum. Actually think Hatley looks to be having a big impact there though which is good.

by lostinwales Mon 05 Mar 2018, 6:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hope sinckler comes back in tbh. Huge step up from williams. Seeing as Robson appears completely off the radar I'm hoping youngs gets back as quick as possible.

I have heard that Youngs was not as badly hurt as first thought, and he will be back before the end of the season.

by Geordie Mon 05 Mar 2018, 7:35 pm

I think id like to see Hughes on the bench start Simmonds, Underhill and Robshaw

by Poorfour Mon 05 Mar 2018, 8:37 pm

Williams was rubbish in the scrum on tour but has improved. However, if Sinckler is fully fit he is better than Williams in most departments. Cole has been playing well, so I guess it is likely to be a question of whether Sinckler's match fitness is where Eddie wants it.

by robbo277 Mon 05 Mar 2018, 9:05 pm

Fair enough on Sinckler or Williams. Only really have time for internationals and the occasional Champions Cup game at the moment so with Cole such a mainstay I've not seen too much of either.

On Youngs - from the horse's mouth: https://mobile.twitter.com/benyoungs09/status/970732577244971008

If he's playing by the end of the season he'll probably tour.

by Yoda Mon 05 Mar 2018, 10:51 pm

Good news on youngs, don't think Eddie will change much apart from bench. He backs his players and will expect a response. England were pants for 40 mins plus but aren't a bad side over night. Eddy may tinker with preferred backrow on tour with autumn internationals if allowed due to injury. It's going to be wet and horrible in France and we need to be clinical. I guess we will see who has the minerals needed like Ireland showed. It won't be a classic.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Mar 2018, 7:56 am

Good news if it isn't as serious. Wonder if he'll miss the summer tour anyway given the circumstances with his sister in law. May prompt jones to have a proper look at someone else again. I'm not really that confident going into the next year with wigglesworth as number 3.

by hugehandoff Tue 06 Mar 2018, 10:26 am

Bit of EJ chat in the press today about potentially dropping Ford. The weather forecast for Paris is awful and he predicts a slugathon. Therefore looking at Farrell at 10, T'eo at 12 and JJ at 13. Would be a big change. Probably just mind games?

by Scottrf Tue 06 Mar 2018, 10:28 am

If he drops Ford, it’s probably 6N chances over. I don’t think we would get a BP without him.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Mar 2018, 10:52 am

Think he'll just be concentrating on the win.

by Scottrf Tue 06 Mar 2018, 11:05 am

Probably. But would be a mistake.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Mar 2018, 11:08 am

Personally I'd rather get the win no matter what than play to loose looking for it and lose. I know.it diminishes the chance of a tournament win but sobe it from my pov.

by Scottrf Tue 06 Mar 2018, 11:10 am

I'd rather a 30% chance of winning the tournament and a 70% chance of losing 3/5, than a 5% chance of the tournament and lose 2 max.

by TJ Tue 06 Mar 2018, 11:13 am

Do you really want to see Basteraud running full tilt at Ford / farrell? I am a scots fan and that scares me. :-) England are going to need a defensive rock in the inside centre position. Scotlands lightweight centres were running thru the 10/12 channel all game.

by Scottrf Tue 06 Mar 2018, 11:14 am

The bigger they are...

by beshocked Tue 06 Mar 2018, 11:14 am

I'd rather England pick the best team.

Is Ford the best going forwards in the future? Perhaps.

It's still a bit worrying that he's not particularly good at playing on the backfoot.

Ford could still play a part as an impact player off the bench against tired French.

The problem is I feel like the form of too many players is not good enough.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Mar 2018, 11:15 am

Depends on how much in the future you're looking. Smith looks a pretty special player but not quite yet.

by beshocked Tue 06 Mar 2018, 11:27 am

Smith is smaller than Ford isn't he?

Surely opposition would just target him like they do Ford?

A more physical 10 hasn't exactly done too badly for England in the past.

It's just balancing the team properly.

by Breadvan Tue 06 Mar 2018, 11:27 am

hugehandoff wrote:Bit of EJ chat in the press today about potentially dropping Ford. The weather forecast for Paris is awful and he predicts a slugathon. Therefore looking at Farrell at 10, T'eo at 12 and JJ at 13. Would be a big change. Probably just mind games?

He may well do just that. EJ admitted he should've gone with that in Ireland last year when the game was all through the middle.

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