England Six Nations Thread

[ChequeredJersey]

First topic message reminder :

In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell

Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench

[kingelderfield]

Shame they didn't staple her mouth shut......for the sake of the children of course.

[Rugby Fan]

I get your point, but it might be a little bit of a reach to compare Stephen Jones to Katie Hopkins or Farage.  He does appear myopic, biased, and frequently out to lunch.   And sometimes his points seem to be hatched in the ozone.  I think he can be good, and sometimes actually is.  But it almost seems as if he stirs the pot just because he digs it or on days where his synapses are napping.

That comes across on the Times rugby podcast (think it's called The Ruck). He provokes his colleagues to get them to take a firm position. It's clear he's not just tossing hand grenades for the sake of it, and does believe a lot of his schtick, however.

Incidentally, one good guy popping up on that podcast, as well as a few others, is Alan Dymock. He usually has something interesting to say.

[mikey_dragon]

I have no idea how things will pan our with Moore but you'd have to think it is most likely he'll do a Moriaty.

I can't remember the name but we had another England U20 8 (captain) who sort of went Wales post U20 but more or less disappeared.

Were there not a few Welsh players on your set-up this year? I think the WRU should be concerned over the strength of the academies if more and more are going elsewhere.

I think that was Hugo Ellis? Ex-Wasps boy. He joined Dragons but I don't really remember him featuring. Early retirement I think.

I also hope Moore does a Moriarty - we've been crying out for a big man at 8 for years.

[lostinwales]

I have no idea how things will pan our with Moore but you'd have to think it is most likely he'll do a Moriaty.

I can't remember the name but we had another England U20 8 (captain) who sort of went Wales post U20 but more or less disappeared.

Were there not a few Welsh players on your set-up this year? I think the WRU should be concerned over the strength of the academies if more and more are going elsewhere.

I think that was Hugo Ellis? Ex-Wasps boy. He joined Dragons but I don't really remember him featuring. Early retirement I think.

I also hope Moore does a Moriarty - we've been crying out for a big man at 8 for years.

Thats the one. Wiki says he's playing for Rosslyn Park - so not retirement just a never made it.

Other than some guy called Cameron Redpath who might just possibly have scottish links (!) I am not aware of who else might be able to play for other UK teams but it would be unusual if there were not others with dual (or more) qualifications.

As long as there is a proper (and ideally common) cut off point I don't see a problem with jumping ship at this stage. After all promising players are most likely to be picked up for representative teams based where they grow up

[Rugby Fan]

This is in the Telegraph premium section. There are charts and a lot of images showing Nowell's try in Jones' first game, but I thought I'd just post the text for now.

The context
England may be surfing an extraordinary wave at the moment, but the scale of the task that faced Eddie Jones in February 2016 as he prepared for his first match as head coach should not be underestimated.

For all the Australian’s brio, an ignominious exit from Rugby World Cup 2015 would still have been stinging England’s players horribly. With that in mind, their performance at Murrayfield was always going to be far more dogged than dashing.

Thanks to the talent identification and promotion of predecessor Stuart Lancaster – help he has always acknowledged – Jones did not need to revamp the squad. His primary aim was to cultivate a tangible tactical identity. The more distant goal was, and remains, to win Rugby World Cup 2019.

Looking back two years on, a 15-9 victory over Scotland provided plenty of clues as to Jones’ subsequent progress.

Human resources
In an attempt to install a solid spine and fill a leadership vacuum, three vice-captains – Billy Vunipola, Owen Farrell and Mike Brown – were named under skipper Dylan Hartley for the 2016 Calcutta Cup.

The rest of the match-day 23 was as follows. You can also see the number of caps each player has won since:

[Missing chart]

Those marked with an asterisk, starting half-backs Danny Care and George Ford as well as Hartley, are the only men to have played in all 25 matches of Jones’ tenure. Only five players outside of this initial group have accumulated more than 10 appearances in this period – Maro Itoje and Elliot Daly (both 16), Jonny May and Nathan Hughes (both 12) and Ben Te’o (10).

Impressive youngsters Itoje and Daly had been touted to feature against Scotland in 2016. “I read the papers every day saying we’ve got to pick these guys,” Jones had remarked, before sending them back to their clubs.

Both of them, now British and Irish Lions, made their international debuts within a month, Itoje in Rome the next weekend and Daly against Ireland at Twickenham in Jones’ third match as head coach.

Coming off the bench during the second half of a 12-6 triumph over Wales a fortnight ago, Richard Wigglesworth became the 58th player to feature in a Test match under Jones. However, England’s nucleus now feels established.

Keynote carrier

One attacking trait of the Japan team that shocked South Africa in 2015 was a ‘ruck and run’ framework based on punchy, narrow phase-play and accurate breakdown work to generate quick ball.

England’s raw materials gave Jones an opportunity to use a similar foundation. The visitors would only complete a single offload in that match two years ago against Scotland – the lowest figure under Jones to date. This was stripped-back, abrasive rugby.

Billy Vunipola represented an obvious focal point. Indeed, the Saracen racked up 22 of his country’s 102 carries in the game. To this day, nobody has shouldered a higher proportion of England’s carrying work-load.

[Missing chart]

You will see that all five of these leading work-loads came in 2016. Carrying improvements from the likes of Courtney Lawes have allowed England to share the load subsequently.

Jones’ first nine Tests in charge, comprising a Six Nations, an extra meeting with Wales and the tour to Australia he dubbed ‘Bodyline’, saw England average a mere 1.42 passes per ruck with 5.8 offloads per match. Their average number of rucks per game was 110.

Bench boys
Australia coach Michael Cheika spent Rugby World Cup 2015 praising his Wallaby ‘finishers’ – the likes of Matt Toomua. Jones clearly enjoyed the phrase, perhaps remembering it from Randwick mentor Bob Dwyer, and pinched it for himself.

As we will see, England’s replacements played a pivotal role in overturning Scotland in 2016. This theme has repeated itself on numerous occasions, Jones using the depth of his player pool to craft 23-man squads capable of strong finales.

Only twice, both times against Wales at Twickenham, have England lost the second half under Jones. However, four particular replacements from his first match tell a story of how quickly selection preferences can change.

There are mitigating factors, of course. Whenever Billy Vunipola and Hughes are unavailable, a less direct gameplan might result. Conversely, wet weather conditions skew things in the opposite direction.

However, greater cohesion and more adventure in unstructured situations has aided England’s rise to 1.73 passes per ruck and 9.35 offloads per game over 16 Tests from the autumn of 2016. In the same period, aided by altered breakdown laws and higher ball-in-play time, they have averaged 142 attacking rucks each game.

Jack Clifford, a debutant in 2016, won his most recent cap 12 months ago. He has suffered with injuries, but also from uncertainty over his best position. Hughes’ qualification and a new crop of dynamic back-rowers – Tom Curry, Sam Underhill and Sam Simmonds – have shunted him further back in the queue.

Paul Hill, another rookie, Alex Goode and Ollie Devoto all collected splinters on the Murrayfield bench for all 80 minutes, a fate that has foreshadowed dwindling England prospects. Harry Williams, Kyle Sinckler and Will Collier overtook tighthead prop Hill. Goode has never been backed to replicate domestic and Champions Cup excellence, with the versatility of Daly and Anthony Watson – plus Jones’ continued loyalty to Brown – hindering him.

Uncapped Devoto represented an interesting contingency to galvanise England’s lightweight midfield of Ford, Farrell and Jonathan Joseph. Some punters thought he would emerge at half-time following a stuttering first period for Ford.

Devoto stayed put. He did replace Ford for a five-minute cameo against Wales on May 29, 2016. But that stands as his sole Test appearance. Te’o is currently Jones’ hard-running midfield comfort blanket of choice. In any case, the axis of Ford and Farrell guides England so well it is rarely broken up.


Midfield connection
The series-opener against Australia at Brisbane’s Suncorp Stadium in June 2016 is the only match of the Jones regime that Ford has not started. Less than half an hour after kick-off, he had taken the field. Luther Burrell was unceremoniously hooked, with Farrell shifting to inside centre.

Jack Nowell scored the second of England’s two tries on Jones’ opening night. The finish, and the attacking sequence leading up to it, was underpinned by principles that have survived. The passage begins with a Scotland 22 drop-out that is taken by fly-half Finn Russell..and gathered by Brown, who launches a typically spiky, swerving kick-return. England are across the halfway line, and although James Haskell is offering himself at first-receiver, the real threat is behind him. Ross Ford sees this, and shouts out to the defenders lining up inside him.

Sure enough, Billy Vunipola does step up to take Care’s pass. With Chris Robshaw and Haskell supporting on either shoulder, he trundles forward. The ball is then spun back to Ford, who hoists a high ball towards Russell in the back-field – reminiscent of the way England isolated Rhys Patchell two weeks back. Joseph springs above Russell and taps back for George Kruis. Once England cross the 22, two direct runs set up the more elaborate scoring phase. James Haskell carries from first-receiver……and Robshaw follows up with a clever pick and go that breaches Scotland’s fringe defence. Then comes the try.

This is a snapshot of how England’s ‘flat and fast’ attack can pick apart opponents when operating at its slickest. From a reverse angle, you can appreciate how Farrell slinks into a second wave behind two forwards as Russell is preoccupied by Ford. Mako Vunipola has two viable passing options – an inside ball to Kruis or a pull-back to Farrell. Four Scotland defenders should actually be able to deal with this situation, but John Hardie bites onto Vunipola……and the pass to Farrell isolates Scotland’s edge and sets up a two-on-one. Although Russell swims past Vunipola and Kruis, Tommy Seymour is held long enough for Nowell to scurry around the outside. This final screenshot is also notable for Hartley lurking on the far touchline. Forwards have been trusted by Jones to hold wide positions, and here is evidence that such plans were in place from the start. Watch the try again.


Habits – good and bad
England returned possession from 11 of 12 scrums and from 14 of 15 lineouts at Murrayfield, fulfilling Jones’ brief to strengthen the set-piece efforts of 2015. Having scored England’s first try with a short carry one phase after a scrum, Kruis took nine of these throws.

Before Itoje developed as a caller in the international arena, Kruis’ lineout nous was extremely important to England. Of the 46 tries they scored in 2016, 17 came from lineouts.

Scotland failed to score a try, and industrious, aggressive defence remains another of England’s non-negotiable characteristics. Even here, as Ben Youngs’s pass is intercepted……Ford’s desperate scramble – mirrored by chasing wings Nowell and Watson – compels Russell to kick rather than feeding Stuart Hogg.

One less happy statistic from Jones’ first game was a penalty count of 12. Offences came in a variety of scenarios, many around the tackle area – a facet in which England are constantly striving for greater accuracy.

Over 25 matches with Jones, they have conceded 244 penalties, at an average of 9.76 per match. Clumsiness has descended during some matches. By comparison, Joe Schmidt’s disciplined yet streetwise Ireland have shipped 190 in 25 Tests. Their average sits at 7.6 per match.

As Jones returns to Murrayfield for his 26th Test in charge of England, his team has grown used to, and extremely proficient at, hauling themselves through tough contests. How they press on from here is the fascinating part.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Good read.

[Rugby Fan]

In the Guardian, Gustard takes the blame for England shipping points early in the first Test on tour against Australia in 2016. Probably not much comfort to Luther Burrell, who got hooked.

And what about when it goes wrong, as Gustard frankly admits was the case in the first Test of the 2016 summer tour of Australia, where England were almost blown away in the first 15 minutes, conceding two tries before recovering to clinch a thrilling victory. “[Eddie] makes it clear. I am not daft – I know if we are not defending well,” said Gustard. “The first Test in Australia in 2016, I look at our preparation, I got things wrong. Ultimately it was my fault as I prepared the team wrongly. When the look came across [from Eddie] I realised.”

Gustard adds that in that match he “went too much down one route and saw my arse pretty fast”, essentially that he had planned for only one way that Australia might attack.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/feb/20/paul-gustard-england-defence-coach-scotland-prepared-for-everything

[beshocked]

See I like that. Gustard takes responsibility.

I like it when players and coaches acknowledge they have things to work on.

Player X could learn from this...

I've always liked Gustard. I've had the pleasure of chatting to him a few times.

[Poorfour]

I feel like drawing one of those diagrams that Father Ted draws for Father Dougal, illustrating the difference between “things you know” “things you think you know” and “things you don’t know”.

Can’t think why.

[No 7&1/2]

Unlike the mean Farrells. They never sign autographs.

[lostinwales]

Unlike the mean Farrells. They never sign autographs.

I am reminded of a joke Jeremy Hardy made about Bush. He said the real reason that Bush never signed any of those environmental treaties (or anything) was because of the lack of opposable thumbs

Isn't it about time we had a new thread? I think this one is full

[beshocked]

Why turn something positive I said about Gustard into snide cheapshots?

no 7 & 1/2 really? Autographs mean that much to you? They don't to me. I've rarely asked for one.

[Poorfour]

Why turn something positive I said about Gustard into snide cheapshots?

We didn’t need to. You did that all by yourself.

[No 7&1/2]

Not anymore.

[beshocked]

Autographs don't mean much to you anymore? Why not?

Poorfour not at all. Simply talking about Gustard and how I appreciate it when coaches and players admit things they need to work on.

I don't see what's wrong with wanting more players and coaches to do likewise.

[No 7&1/2]

Nah. I was replying to your last point. Obviously. It was a post pulling your leg over your dislike of 2 good men.

[beshocked]

Nah. I was replying to your last point. Obviously. It was a post pulling your leg over your dislike of 2 good men.

Not sure which 2 good men you mean but I doubt you are in any position to judge whether the Farrells are "good".

When it comes to critiquing Farrell as a player - I can acknowledge he's very good but as a human being I have no respect for him.

It's a shame as I used to like both Farrells. If either or both held up their hands and admitted what they did was wrong, it might be different but neither did.

[Scottrf]

Nah. I was replying to your last point. Obviously. It was a post pulling your leg over your dislike of 2 good men.

Not sure which 2 good men you mean but I doubt you are in any position to judge whether the Farrells are "good".

When it comes to critiquing Farrell as a player - I can acknowledge he's very good but as a human being I have no respect for him.

It's a shame as I used to like both Farrells.  If either or both held up their hands and admitted what they did was wrong, it might be different but neither did.

I'm not sure snubbing autographs necessarily makes you a bad person.

[LondonTiger]

I am getting slightly bored with oblique references to the sins of the Farrells with no other information supplied.

[No 7&1/2]

My bad LT. But it was just a joke following another aside to players coming out each week to announce this week I av been mostly working on......

[beshocked]

Nah. I was replying to your last point. Obviously. It was a post pulling your leg over your dislike of 2 good men.

Not sure which 2 good men you mean but I doubt you are in any position to judge whether the Farrells are "good".

When it comes to critiquing Farrell as a player - I can acknowledge he's very good but as a human being I have no respect for him.

It's a shame as I used to like both Farrells.  If either or both held up their hands and admitted what they did was wrong, it might be different but neither did.

I'm not sure snubbing autographs necessarily makes you a bad person.

Scottrf I might be hot headed at times but something like snubbing autographs wouldn't annoy me much.


Londontiger I only brought it up - because of no 7 & 1/2's wumming. It will likely stay buried - though key people know about it.

[No 7&1/2]

It's not wumming to pull your leg beshocked. Unless you do get worked up over autographs.

[beshocked]

no 7 & 1/2 it's very much wumming - looking to get a reaction, I know I shouldn't fall for the bait but it's not a subject I like to talk about.

I already told you it's not about autographs.

[No 7&1/2]

I'll stop then. Of course I was merely reacting to your point that players and coaches need to constantly update what they're working on in training. I won't make fun of the Farrells not doing selfish with fans anymore.

[LondonTiger]

My bad LT.  But it was just a joke following another aside to players coming out each week to announce this week I av been mostly working on......

Not sure who I was aiming my mini rant at.

With your response I initially misread it and gave far too much emphasis to the bold bit. Which leads to a more serious discussion perhaps, but not on this thread.

[No 7&1/2]

Would be nice to have a bit of variety.

[beshocked]

Coaches and players don't necessarily need to constantly update but nice to get an insight into what players and coaches are working on.

I think Mako's focus so far seems to have worked.

I've never asked either Farrell for an autograph or selfie.


On a side note I am actually in agreement that I'd like to see a proper backrow not just someone filling in like Lawes.

I'd just prefer if you focused more on where we agree and not where we differ because there's a lot I have agree with when it comes to what other England fans say.

[Scottrf]

I've never asked either Farrell for an autograph or selfie.

If you don't ask you don't get!

[No 7&1/2]

It's a discussion forum. I'll occasionally say yup I get that to people but I'll normally add further thoughts or point out where I disagree. When people exaggerate slightly I'll normally put a point against that. For instance hartley. Yes we know. We know. We really do know. Honest. The majority just then discuss why he starts.

Myself I'd have Robson on the bench at least by now. I also have a fair idea why he isn't. I don't want lawes there more to do with balance than anything else. If out back row were an imaginary and on form lawes curry Clifford for instance, to me that pretty balanced skills wise. I think this one is too bulky and slow. But here's the thing; I can see.it gives us 2 good carrying options in the back row. It vastly improves the lineout. It gives us a helluva load more physicality though underhill could clearly stop a tank in a tackle. I'll keep telling scott every time.lawes drops the ball or gets stripped by a back though.

[lostinwales]

Lawes only usually gets stripped of the ball once per game. Shame it's every. single. game. but there you go. He's looking very good in the lineout.

I am beginning to wonder if they have moved from 'Itoje is stronger so its better that he plays at lock in the scrum' to 'Lawes isn't a strong scrummaging lock'

[thomh]

or just "everyone has realised Lawes was playing 6 anyway, so there's no point lying about it on the teamsheet".

[king_carlos]

or just "everyone has realised Lawes was playing 6 anyway, so there's no point lying about it on the teamsheet".

That's the reality. Lawes previous game at 6 was one of his worst internationally so Jones took the heat off from the media and fans by putting Itoje in the 6 shirt. It was a pretty shrewd move at the time although it annoyed me that Jones kept doing it after most everyone had noticed.

It still amuses me that some fans adamantly state that Itoje was playing flanker in open play and Lawes playing lock in open play.

In attack Itoje was carrying off 9 more, carrying around the fringes and hitting ruck after ruck. In defence he was defending the fringes hard, almost always staying inside Ford, either standing at guard where he's defending the pick and go, or defending at 2 where he's targeting runners off 9 (an area that Itoje defends exceptionally well IMO).

In attack Lawes was carrying more off 10 and usually carrying later into the phases. In defence he was also defending wider out than Itoje where he could target either the 10 or runners coming off 10.

Even in England's game plan where 4-7 play fairly fluid roles there was a pretty clear distinction between Itoje being at lock and Lawes at 6.

All that said I hope that Jones brings Underhill and Tom Curry through as 7s with Robshaw as first choice 6. The way Underhill especially, but also Tom Curry, dominate tackles is something I think can add to the back row.

[leicestertinytiger]

Whilst I rate the Curry twins, for me Willis is better than them both. The guy is a beast over the ball at the break down and for me has more potential.

[BamBam]

Impressive lurking!

[lostinwales]

Whilst I rate the Curry twins, for me Willis is better than them both. The guy is a beast over the ball at the break down and for me has more potential.

Worth pointing out that Jack Willis is 18months older than the Curry twins. That is a significant length of time at that age.

Still, competition is good.

[No 7&1/2]

Hmm. Wish he'd just say exactly what his weaknesses were rather than he's just working to improve. http://www.englandrugby.com/news/six-nations-england-scotland-hartley-credits-jones-reaches-milestone/?sf182909179=1

[Geordie]

Huge reality check for England....and Ireland will be another one as I think we'll get well beaten off them.

[formerly known as Sam]

Huge reality check for England....and Ireland will be another one as I think we'll get well beaten off them.

We deserved nothing and got nothing. Completely outplayed.

Care kicked badly or not all and got taken to the cleaners by Laidlaw in the tactical battle. The pack was too cumbersome and we've needed to face up to the fact that three locks doesn't work and that we need someone to get stuck into the breakdown.

[mid_gen]

England were poop today, but they aren't a terrible side, same as Scotland weren't suddenly after losing to Wales.

The breakdown area was simply not good enough, it seemed like Robshaw was having to try and compete with the whole Scottish back row single handedly. Hughes carried well but was nowhere near the tackle area, and I don't recall seeing Lawes getting stuck in. Underhill coming on levelled the playing field up front (until he got binned).

I think we'll beat Ireland at home personally.

[Geordie]

So we're losing the breakdown putt8ng two people in each ruck....

Why then does some clever pwrs9n not take control and change the tactics and say hey...we're getting blown away....put 3/4 people in...make it all secure slow the game down and go to the powr forward game.

But no they had no idea or intelligence.

[No 7&1/2]

I don't think we'll see the same back row star next time.

[carpet baboon]

So we're losing the breakdown putt8ng two people in each ruck....

Why then does some clever pwrs9n not take control and change the tactics and say hey...we're getting blown away....put 3/4 people in...make it all secure slow the game down and go to the powr forward game.

But no they had no idea or intelligence.

To be honest that's what shocked me about England today. They just didn't adapt. Kept doing the same thing and hoped it would work.

[Mr Bounce]

I would have been very interested to see what sort of back row we'd have had if Tom Curry and Billy Vunipola has both been fit. I honestly think that (despite his silly yellow) Frodo was the best English back row forward by a long way and he only had 10 minutes on the pitch. Robshaw (as stated above) was trying to do far too much and Lawes was simply not good enough at 6. Granted we've had injury issues and have several fantastic locks but I think today's balls up has showed us that we should not play them on the flank again.

Tackling was also atrocious today (take a bow Anthony Watson) and the lack of a plan B should have woken some players up. France will have taken a long hard look at this game and will doubtless be licking their lips. Lauret and Camara would have done much the same as Barclay and Watson by totally outplaying the England 6 & 7.

I think that once all injuries are repaired we could end up seeing a back row of Robshaw, Curry and Vunipola with Underhill on the bench at the RWC.

[leicestertinytiger]

England have not turned over night into a bad team. The loss in the long term is probably a good thing as we can learn lots of lessons from it.

1) we have 4 world class locks, but that does not mean we have to shoe horn them all into the 23. Pick 2 locks in the second row, 1 on the bench and sadly one has to miss out. We looked so much better with a proper back row unit on the pitch.

2) Robson needs to come in now and deserves his chance at this level. Care is a good player, but lacks the intelligence to manage a game from the start.

3) we need to stick with a back 3 of Watson, Nowell and Daly as he is back from injury. May is a quality stand in but Brown looks past it. Nowell is too good to leave on the bench and has to start.

[TightHEAD]

I can't stand it when people say we'll learn from this defeat.

These are pro rugby players and it was clear after the first 20mims our game plan wasn't going to work if we didn't do the basics right.

[Pot Hale]

I can't stand it when people say we'll learn from this defeat.

These are pro rugby players and it was clear after the first 20mims our game plan wasn't going to work if we didn't do the basics right.

You learn more from an occasional loss than another win. Hansen and Schmidt say this from time to time.

[SecretFly]

Hansen and Schmidt?? Two chancer eejits!

[mikey_dragon]

Lack of the usual smugness from Inverdale and Guscott today, I wonder why #getthesack

[TJ]

On the point about saying what you need to work on / improve. In Scotland a good few of the players have been very open about being sent away to work on aspects of their game and have improved as a result. Us fans like to know that Denton needs to protect the ball more and do more of the hard yards, that Matt Scott needs to work a-on his defence and is away to do so, that Russell needs to stop trying to win the game every time he gets the ball etc etc

[No 7&1/2]

Well you in beshocked s band then tj. Don't think it'll take a mind reader to know they players will be working on their breakdown for the next 2 weeks though! I think underhill will come into the back row now even with jones trying to take focus off the back row. Wonder if we'll see lawes still covering from the bench.

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