England Six Nations Thread

[ChequeredJersey]

First topic message reminder :

In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell

Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench

[Geordie]

Its not about whole changes, its about identifying the things we have been doing well....that we're not doing well now.

Mako's barely carried effectively. Marler offers more at the breakdown and clearing out at the rucks etc.
Itoje isn't having the impact he was. Hes still a top class player..just need to work out why he's not quite doing what he was. Disrupting, being a menace etc.
Hughes carrying has been uneffective, hell Haskell offered more when he came on.

The tactic of using 2 men to clear out for quick ball works in the right conditions. But when its not right..you need more players to secure the ball. Yes its slower ball but you adapt your attack appropriately.
For gods sake at one stage it was Ford v Basteraud in a ruck....SERIOUSLY!!!!?????

One thing Kruis and Itoje did so well was work as a team in them situations. They really attacked the rucks, breakdown area as a combo / duo. Then you had Haskell blitzing it like a lunatic as well.

That made up for a lack of the "real 7" everyone keeps calling for.

The England team look passive...non aggressive in situations at the moment. On the last Australia tour they were furiously aggressive. Haskell again led it. Power and aggression.

I wouldn't change much of the personnel...but I damn sure would change the tactics. We HAVE to secure ball on Saturday...if we keep turning over the ball (which Ireland are brutal at) it'll be a cricket score.

And we need brutal controlled aggression as well. Take no prisoners clearing out the rucks etc. Wolf pack mentality.

Then we can start looking at the attack. If Mako is to play he needs to be FAR more involved carrying. That's his thing. Sinkler showed the effect it has. It puts the opposition on the back foot. We haven't hardly done that this 6n.

Armand will make a difference. in that area to if he starts.

[kingelderfield]

We played Ozy under the OLD laws. The tackle ruck has changed and now is so much quicker.
Complications of this have been the differing interpretations different leagues or refs have made and this has been emphasized with the northern hemisphere trial proceeding the Super season when realistically the Kiwi's will pull them apart and make our current inept efforts appear for what they are.
The simple point is that the modern game dictates a back row of balance, speed and skill not a forking 2nd row!

[majesticimperialman]

ooops

[lostinwales]

BY the way,
Is Wiggly the absolute slowest 9 in England?  When it was time to get things going, he was like watching paint dry.  He certainly waited for the defense to get in position (maybe he was just being 'sporting'?).  Is there no other 9 in our blessed isle who knows how to stick his head up someone's rear end grabbing at a big ball?  

And, yes, Care, is a clear finisher, not a starter.    

Wiggy has had his moments in the past but he's had his day at international level. He's as far away from 'impact' as it is possible to get.

We have really really missed Youngs.

I do wonder if we should try the Care/Farrell combo that worked well a few years back, but whatever we do something is very missing. There are still very good players in this squad, and we were all over France for a while but nothing really worked.

[kingelderfield]

Obviously injuries, player fatigue and suspensions have had a significant effect, however EJ has made surprising mistakes for someone of his undoubted experience.

[Geordie]

We played Ozy under the OLD laws. The tackle ruck has changed and now is so much quicker.
Complications of this have been the differing interpretations different leagues or refs have made and this has been emphasized with the northern hemisphere trial proceeding the Super season when realistically the Kiwi's will pull them apart and make our current inept efforts appear for what they are.
The simple point is that the modern game dictates a back row of balance, speed and skill not a forking 2nd row!

Yes there have been changes, but most of what I said above still applies.

[No 7&1/2]

Not too much has changed really. We're just just too slow to the breakdown. Didn't help when you had basteraud who has always been very good in midfield. Played him very poorly.

[Rugby Fan]

We played Ozy under the OLD laws. The tackle ruck has changed and now is so much quicker.

It's no quicker than it was under the old laws. The difference is, we are playing as if the breakdown is less contestable, when referees outsisde the Premiership seem happy to let it be contested just as much. Almost think our 2016 breakdown tactics would serve us better than our new ones.

Jones stated he is having to counter Premiership habits but they can't be that ingrained, because the laws changed only recently. With the amount of analysis teams do now, it really shouldn't have been beyond England to see how other referees view the breakdown. There are several months of league matches to watch, not to mention the European competitions, where different styles went up against each other. I think England thought they knew what was coming but kept getting it wrong.

[TightHEAD]

Not too much has changed really. We're just just too slow to the breakdown. Didn't help when you had basteraud who has always been very good in midfield. Played him very poorly.

Why did we keep running into the Big Basteraud in the first place, I know from personal experience, when someone dinks a little kick over your head or a well placed grubber behind you 20 stones is a big unit to stop, turn and sprint again.

Did England even try this?

[SecretFly]

The Bastareaud wouldn't have like to be humiliated like that, that's why.

The Bastareaud would have gotten angry, and when he gets angry he gets green and some poor Ford of Farrell is gonna get a tattoo of Bastareaud's face in their guts.

Don't madden him. Just let him do his hero stuff maybe three times a half and then he zones out for the rest of the half

[lostinwales]

The Bastareaud wouldn't have like to be humiliated like that, that's why.

The Bastareaud would have gotten angry, and when he gets angry he gets green and some poor Ford of Farrell is gonna get a tattoo of Bastareaud's face in their guts.

Don't madden him.  Just let him do his hero stuff maybe three times a half and then he zones out for the rest of the half

In the dim and distant history we used to have this samoan guy playing for us in the centers. He was in the squad against an earlier version of Basteraud- and he spent the whole game just smashing him or running around him at will.

Basteraud is a very limited player, but he's good at what he does. You have to run a long way to go around him but he's only going to be a real problem if you keep on running into him.

Mind you -thinking about the number of turnovers he's been getting recently - has anybody seen Steffon Armitage?

[robbo277]

I think every pundit (professional and armchair) has identified the breakdown as our weakness, as well as penalties (probably stemming from the breakdown thing).

Do we think this back 5 is good enough to compete with Scotland or France, where our current back 5 failed? Is it good enough to compete with Ireland? Or the All Blacks?

4. Itoje
5. Lawes
6. Armand
7. Underhill
8. Vunipola

19. Launchbury
20. Simmonds

Other names in the fray Kruis, Ewels, Isiekwe, Robshaw, Haskell, Tom Curry, Ben Curry, Mercer - should any of those make the first choice squad?

I'll admit I haven't watched much outside International rugby, so don't know too much about the players with fewer caps.

Do we need more carriers in the front row? At their best, would a front row of Mako, George and Cole with Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie and Sinckler on the bench offer us enough power for the 80? Is there anyone who could come in for Cole and offer us more around the park without being a liability in the scrum?

Do we need to do anything with our backs, or is it just the lack of decent ball that's stifling them?

[wolfball]

From the outside looking in, there is not a lot of the clever niggling that historically makes playing england such hassle. There is still niggling of course, its just not as clever and is more in the backs (Farrell and Brown). Hartley and Marler are the only two members of this pack I can think of who have some of that element (also the only two pack players ye have that stresses me when Ireland play against you besides Vunipolo). The rest of the pack are supreme athletes, maybe the most athletically powerful pack in the world, but get that niggle back and you may start to mentally dominate packs as much as you seek to physically dominate them.

[Scarpia]

Obviously injuries, player fatigue and suspensions have had a significant effect, however EJ has made surprising mistakes for someone of his undoubted experience.

Make up your minds, England. You can either keep on crowing about your wonderful strength in depth and how brilliant the Premiership is at developing players of international quality or you can be badly affected by the same problems (injuries, fatigue, suspensions) that all teams face. You can't have it both ways.

[kingelderfield]

Are you a wum or simply ignorant to the difference's between national structures?
The RFU English premiership agreement still does not deliver the elite players cable of performing an international campaign.
The RFU suits are still more interested in their performance related bonus schemes than actually financing functioning performance structures.
As far as the RFU is concerned the last WC was tremendous success.

[George Carlin]

Can I ask England fans what they made of Guscott's comment on the Beeb:

In the current squad, England only have three world-class players - Owen Farrell, Billy Vunipola, and Elliot Daly. That's it. The likes of Mako Vunipola and Anthony Watson are good internationals but when they are struggling to play at their very best, that puts a massive amount of pressure on the world-class players.

Kind of a weird thing to say given how many travelled with the Lions.

[Scarpia]

Are you a wum or simply ignorant to the difference's between national structures?
The RFU English premiership agreement still does not deliver the elite players cable of performing an international campaign.
The RFU suits are still more interested in their performance related bonus schemes than actually financing functioning performance structures.
As far as the RFU is concerned the last WC was tremendous success.

If you read my post a little more carefully you will see that I am not putting forward the proposition about the Premiership, merely quoting the claims made by others.

[SecretFly]

This 'World Class' thing is as fickle as the Northern Atlantic weather. Had England managed to pull off the win in Paris, the talk would have been 'character' and the kind of 'world class' players a team needs to pull off a win when adversity hits....the team that still finds a way to win.

That's the only difference - a few seconds of an end-game in Paris and no luck for the English when the Irish hit lucky.

[kingelderfield]

Semantics aside, It has always been the case that we have struggled to populate the entire Premiership with EQ players, though the numbers are considerable.
There is a real and difficult balance between journeymen overseas contributions and beneficial quality enhancers. At the moment with all the injuries, both at league and national level, that balance is probably in the detrimental column.
The English player numbers should always be taken with a dollop of salt, plus remember we play in a nation where Soccer is a monster and there are numerous other professional sporting options for talent to be drawn to, as well as the actual fact that our historically distant best clubs divided and to this day employ hundred of other rugby players.
Ultimately the RFU don't want to see the game played by the comprehensive masses so development beyond the traditional feed is very limited.

[mid_gen]

From the outside looking in, there is not a lot of the clever niggling that historically makes playing england such hassle. There is still niggling of course, its just not as clever and is more in the backs (Farrell and Brown). Hartley and Marler are the only two members of this pack I can think of who have some of that element (also the only two pack players ye have that stresses me when Ireland play against you besides Vunipolo). The rest of the pack are supreme athletes, maybe the most athletically powerful pack in the world, but get that niggle back and you may start to mentally dominate packs as much as you seek to physically dominate them.

Seems a long time since Haskell smashed Pocock in the 1st test to set the tone for the series.

Robshaw, Billy, Haskell. I don't think we appreciated what a great back row combination that was.

We need that aggression back. Brown, Haskell, Hartley, Marler, Sinckler. Robshaw has developed some niggle in his old age. Kruis and Itoje bakc to hammering people backwards in the tackle.

Marler
Hartley
Sinckler
Kruis
Itoje
Robshaw
Haskell
Armand
Care/Robson
Farrell
Daly
Te'o
JJ
Watson
Brown

[kingelderfield]

Obviously there is no reason why EJ cannot revert back to Hartley and Brown if fit, but realistically now is the time to be brave and for the side to grow up and cut the apron strings.
Japan is the real goal, the GS and championship has gone, but for this generation to own the future they need to now be given their present.

[kingelderfield]

Marler George Williams
Launchbury, Otoje (c)
Robshaw Simmonds Armand
Robson Ford
Watson Te'o Slade Joseph
Daly
Vunipola LCD Sinckler
Gaskell
Haskell
Care Tuilagi Solomona

[carpet baboon]

Are any England fans concerned that England may be so determined to smash the breakdown, and show some aggression, that it leads to a few yellows maybe a red?
You do have a couple of players who have let themselves down in there judgment from time to time

[kingelderfield]

No.

[Rugby Fan]

Ultimately the RFU don't want to see the game played by the comprehensive masses

Ultimately, you are talking nonsense.

[SecretFly]

Robshaw beat the bejaysus out of himself at the weekend, to put it bluntly.

Will he have enough puff left for this weekend coming? Great competitor but he often looked like he was alone at the coal face on Saturday.

[Cyril]

I wouldn’t be surprised if England win by 15-20. It does seem it’s all about home advantage.

[SecretFly]

Why so greedy though Cyril? Why not look for a more exciting game and just win by an iffy point in the 86th minute?

Bums on seats.

[yappysnap]

He'll have enough, he always does. And he'll get no thanks or recognition for it as always.

[kingelderfield]

Let's just hope he gets some support from EJ's selection.
The RFU has for years been hideously incompetent and has now morphed into a corporate junket prioritising the privilege of the gilted few. Don't tell me the RFU prioritises the on field national side.

[No 7&1/2]

Been a while since you rolled out the old favourites.

[No 7&1/2]

Armand saying he's happy to play anywhere in the back 3 as you would. Jones highlighting the breakdown as he would. Having armand and haskell launching themselves into rucks would help quick ball but jones has indicated that he sees simmonds as a possible 7 and he gives so much speed to the back row. Can't decide who he's going for.

[Scottrff]

Doesn't matter who we pick in the br if our players don't carry more intelligently.

[No 7&1/2]

Very true scott. Some poor choices last weekend. Lack of support and lack of technique. All added up to a nightmare!

[Geordie]

Armand saying he's happy to play anywhere in the back 3 as you would. Jones highlighting the breakdown as he would. Having armand and haskell launching themselves into rucks would help quick ball but jones has indicated that he sees simmonds as a possible 7 and he gives so much speed to the back row.  Can't decide who he's going for.

Well at least we'd actually have physicality and aggression at the breakdown for a change.

[TightHEAD]

Stop panicking guys, we were potentially one move away from scoring a try at the end of the French game and a kick to win it.

Yes we were poor and to be honest I don't get why EJ didn't address the breakdown problem as it was clear Robshaw, Lawes and an Hughes 80% fit wasn't going to cut it in this years 6 nations.

Hey-ho there is always this weekend to lay a marker down.

[Scarpia]

................. remember we play in a nation where Soccer is a monster and there are numerous other professional sporting options for talent to be drawn to,

Soccer is meaningless in Scotland of course. No excuse for Ireland though. They have no other sporting passions. Well, apart from Gaelic football and hurling of course. In Wales until perhaps the mid 1980s when we had the mass defections to RL which meant we lost virtually a whole generation of outstanding players it could have been said that RU was overwhelmingly the popular sport. But since then soccer has made huge gains. In a small country that has made a big difference.

[SecretFly]

Soccer is a bloody boring sport when compared to Rugby Union. What bloody real men choose to watch a game where the ball goes over, back, up, down, sideways, rightways, leftways pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, sideways, leftways, backways, forward, pass, pass, pass, pass then kick the bloody ball over the bar instead of under it and still call it a worthy game to follow????

Oh right, Irish rugby fans watching their team just snake a game in Paris.

[LondonTiger]

Soccer is a bloody boring sport when compared to Rugby Union.  What bloody real men choose to watch a game where the ball goes over, back, up, down, sideways, rightways, leftways pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, sideways, leftways, backways, forward, pass, pass, pass, pass then kick the bloody ball over the bar instead of under it and still call it a worthy game to follow????

Oh right, Irish rugby fans watching their team just snake a game in Paris.

Of course for an English rugby fan it was: time up, last play, 5m out, mess up lineout, mess up clearance kick, fat boy runs ball, everyone lies down, fat boy runs ball, everyone lies down, fat boy runs ball, everyone lies down, fat boy runs ball, everyone lies down, finally 5m out, huge overlap, surely pass, no, fat boy runs ball, fat boy drops ball, ref blows whistle.

[Geordie]

Football was good in the 80's ...it was actually a contact sport, not the ballet it is today.

[propdavid_london]

Its all part of the plan lads.....poor 6N, average Summer tour, and mixed November test results.
Will leave things perfectly primed to explode to life at the WC.......

[lostinwales]

Its all part of the plan lads.....poor 6N, average Summer tour, and mixed November test results.  
Will leave things perfectly primed to explode to life at the WC.......

To be honest if we can give a few key players the summer off, get some more back to fitness from injury and find another scrum half I don't think we'll be far away. The rest will be down to Eddie tweaking the coaching team and tactics.

[Geordie]

Agree LIW, players like Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako, Farrell etc need a complete rest in the summer

[LondonTiger]

My Summer Squad (32)

Marler, Genge, Hepburn, LCD, Taylor, Dunn, Sinckler, Williams, Launchbury, Kruis, Isiekwe, Ewells, Robshaw, Underhill, Armand, Simmonds, BillyV, Curry (either)
Youngs, Care, Robson, Ford, Lozowski, Slade, Joseph, Te'o, Manu, May, Daly, Watson, Nowell, Solomona


Eddies Summer Squad

Mako, Marler, Hartley, George, Cole, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis, Isiekwe, Ewells, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, Simmonds, Underhill

Youngs, Care, Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, Te'o, Joseph, Slade, Manu, Nowell, May, Daly, Watson, Brown

Plus a few kids for training purposes from recent squads or U20s (so Mercer, Smith, Earle etc)

[Geordie]

My Summer Squad (32)

Marler, Genge, Hepburn, LCD, Taylor, Dunn, Sinckler, Williams, Launchbury, Kruis, Isiekwe, Ewells, Robshaw, Underhill, Armand, Simmonds, BillyV, Curry (either)
Youngs, Care, Robson, Ford, Lozowski, Slade, Joseph, Te'o, Manu, May, Daly, Watson, Nowell, Solomona

I like it.

On a side note...How is Sam James going at Sale these days? He looked a genuine prospect. Size, pace, ran good lines etc at 12. Has he faded?

[robbo277]

My Summer Squad (32)

Marler, Genge, Hepburn, LCD, Taylor, Dunn, Sinckler, Williams, Launchbury, Kruis, Isiekwe, Ewells, Robshaw, Underhill, Armand, Simmonds, BillyV, Curry (either)
Youngs, Care, Robson, Ford, Lozowski, Slade, Joseph, Te'o, Manu, May, Daly, Watson, Nowell, Solomona


Eddies Summer Squad

Mako, Marler, Hartley, George, Cole, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis, Isiekwe, Ewells, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, Simmonds, Underhill

Youngs, Care, Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, Te'o, Joseph, Slade, Manu, Nowell, May, Daly, Watson, Brown

Plus a few kids for training purposes from recent squads or U20s (so Mercer, Smith, Earle etc)

While I largely take your point and would much rather see your 32 or similar go, if Billy is available (and I assume he is as you've picked him), then Jones will take him.

Continuing the centre theme from GF's post, does anyone know how Marchant is looking this season? Looked strong for the 20s a couple of years back, has been exposed to a couple of squads without making much of a dent. With Joseph looking below his best and like a summer off wouldn't hurt him, would there be space for a player like Marchant? Especially with Manu, Te'o Slade, Daly, Lozowski and Nowell all there as options in the centre.

[LondonTiger]

Oops, forgot to write Billy down (hence just 31) for Eddies pick.


Live I thought Marchant was looking pretty good against us a few weeks ago, though when I checked the match back on TV most of the good work I had thought was him was actually Morris entering the line.

It will be hard for him to get a look in with the guys you name covering a number of different styles.

[kingelderfield]

Fat boy.........best summary I've read so far LT. Good work.

[propdavid_london]

Billy has had hardly any rugby for ages - if he is fit he needs to be back playing to get up to previous levels.
Marchant still hasn't achieved the form that got him an earlier call up.

[king_carlos]

I expect that Zach Mercer and Marcus Smith will be involved in the summer squad, whether as apprentices or actual options.

If Jones sticks to previous opinions on scrum halfs then a young 9 such as Maunder or Vellacott might travel as third choice as well.

1.Marler, Genge
2.Hartley, Taylor, LCD
3.Sinckler, Williams, Collier
4.Launchbury, Ewels
5.Kruis, Isiekwe
6.Robshaw, Haskell
7.T Curry, Armand
8.Vunipola, Simmonds, Mercer

9.Youngs, Care, Robson
10.Ford, Lozowski, Smith

11.May, Nowell
12.Te'o, Slade
13.Joseph, Tuilagi
14.Daly, Rokoduguni
15.Brown, Watson

I'd be very happy with that as a squad. A lot of fans seem keen to discard Haskell but I thought the pack improved considerably when he came on against France. If Underhill wasn't out for the season I'd take him instead but as Underhill's injured Haskell should travel IMO.

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