England Six Nations Thread

[ChequeredJersey]

First topic message reminder :

In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell

Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench

[Geordie]

Whats peoples thoughts on the other Simmonds...he seems to be impressing a few with his play at the moment.

[leicestertinytiger]

For me there would be three main things for the summer tour:

1) Would love to see how our third choice front row performs against a big SA pack. Let’s give Genge, Cowan-Dickie and Williams a start and see how they get on. Let’s build some strength in depth because who knows how long Cole and Hartley have got. Personally I think they can make it to the next World Cup but let’s give them a rest.

2) I hope he picks some flankers on form for the tour from the premiership. Robshaw and Haskell deserve to be there on merit but Underhill probably won’t be available because of injury and Curry is coming back. Therefore, let’s pick the form flankers and get Armand and O’Connor in the squad and see what they’re made of.

3) If Cipriani and Robson agree to be playing in England next season, let’s get them on the plane and see what they’re made of.

[Geordie]

I also wonder if Auterac going to quins under Rowntree he might stay injury free and will finally fulfil his potential?

[Geordie]

Gary Graham should get a chance if he returns from injury playing like he was before. And if not...he should go for Scotland.

And ill not bother mentioning Mark Wilson..oops.

What about Dave Ewers?

[TightHEAD]

Cipriani will never play for England again. Just accept it and move on people f f s!

[Rugby Fan]

...2) I hope he picks some flankers on form for the tour from the premiership. Robshaw and Haskell deserve to be there on merit but Underhill probably won’t be available because of injury and Curry is coming back. Therefore, let’s pick the form flankers and get Armand and O’Connor in the squad and see what they’re made of...

Jones selected Piers Francis for Argentina because he'd signed for Saints. With that logic, he would also consider Shields available for selection

[Poorfour]

I also wonder if Auterac going to quins under Rowntree he might stay injury free and will finally fulfil his potential?

Have you seen our injury record over the last two seasons? We used to be great at rehabilitating crocks, but now we are generating them faster than we can recruit. I can only assume that Auterac just fancies a better class of physio table.

[Yoda]

The best seven coming up is Willis at wasps. Would be interesting to see under hill at 6 Willis at 7 and Billy at 8. With Hughes Simmonds and curry twins fighting closely for back up. Armand may be a short stop gap at nearly 30?

[mid_gen]

Cipriani will never play for England again. Just accept it and move on people f f s!

It's not like he's setting the world on fire, or qualifies as seasoned veteran..best thing Cips can do at this point is go top up the retirement money in France or Japan.

We've got two promising young guns in Lozowski and Smith who deserve their chance.

Dave Ward's still knocking around topping the turnover stats if we really need an out and out fetcher 7/hooker :P

[robbo277]

The best seven coming up is Willis at wasps. Would be interesting to see under hill at 6 Willis at 7 and Billy at 8. With Hughes Simmonds and curry twins fighting closely for back up. Armand may be a short stop gap at nearly 30?

Nearly 30 and 18 months from a world cup. He'll be 31 at the tournament, if he's good enough he'll by no means be too old.

If he has a good game off the bench against Ireland, he'll deserve to keep his place for tour. If he's setting the level, it's up to Underhill, Willis and whoever else to catch him.

[BamBam]

I thought Willis was a 6/8 rather than a 7

What do people think of Underhill as a 7? To me, he seems to be the Haskell style of 7 - quick over the ground, powerful and very strong in the tackle, but doesn't look like the breakdown menace that some seem to think he is.

I think he'd be very effective in the current side just due to his speed, even getting to the breakdown a step quicker will be a big advantage, but longer term do you see his best position as 7?

I'm firmly on the Tom Curry bandwagon at 7, but could see Underhill making a very effective blindside flanker - although I wonder if he offers enough carrying there

In the run in to the World Cup, I would like to see

6. Robshaw - stop messing around and just leave him there, its his best position
7. Underhill/Curry - decide if we want the hard hitting smashmouth style or breakdown nous
8. Vunipola

Bench - Mercer/Simmonds - able to play 2/3 of the back row positions, good impact players

[LondonTiger]

At 6ft3 and over 17 stone Jack Willis looks more like a 6/8 than a7. With less than a handful of starts in the premiership, not sure any at 7, it is too early to say he is or even will be the best 7 available to England.

[nlpnlp]

Richie McCaw was 6' 2" and just under 17st and made a decent career for himself as an international 7.

I think one thing which is obvious from the 6 Nation performances is that a lot of our players need a rest rather than a summer tour. I hope it is an opportunity to take lots of younger up and coming players, plus some experienced players not currently in the first choice 15 (Armand excepted who has only been picked now due to a lot of injuries).

[Sgt_Pooly]

Underhill has the game to be a breakdown menace but just seems to have forgot about it since moving back to the AP.

I'm not so sure Curry is this breakdown type 7 either, he's more of a fast linking option for me. The couple of steals he got in a white jersey wouldn't be allowed under this season's rules.

[robbo277]

Richie McCaw was 6' 2" and just under 17st and made a decent career for himself as an international 7.

I think one thing which is obvious from the 6 Nation performances is that a lot of our players need a rest rather than a summer tour.  I hope it is an opportunity to take lots of younger up and coming players, plus some experienced players not currently in the first choice 15 (Armand excepted who has only been picked now due to a lot of injuries).

Resting players will be a win-win for us. It will give players that need it a much needed rest, but it will also give Eddie a chance to look at some new faces.

Not many players who have made their debuts in 2017 have kicked on for England. There were a large number because of the Lions tour, but most of them have been discarded. It would be good to see some of them get a second go.

Williams has had a few bench appearances while Simmonds, Underhill and Tom Curry have all been unlucky with injuries. But Lozowski, Solomona, Armand, Maunder and Isiekwe all debuted in Argentina and, despite a bit of squad exposure (and Armand getting a recall this weekend), haven't featured for England. It would be good to see what these guys could do with a few of the more senior players in a slightly tougher tour.

By the autumn we should be back to our strongest, ready to protect the (hopefully still intact) Twickenham record and launch a push at winning back the Six Nations.

[Yoda]

At 6ft3 and over 17 stone Jack Willis looks more like a 6/8 than a7. With less than a handful of starts in the premiership, not sure any at 7, it is too early to say he is or even will be the best 7 available to England.

Willis is an out and out seven, he's very quick and is a real ground hog. Established himself this year but has been injured. Having watched him alot as wasps fan has that dog in him as well that is such a pain to play against. Him and Thomas young together on the pitch was a very effective combo. He's the same body shape as Ritchie to boot. Hopefully he will stay injury free unlike the last seven Messiah Tom Rees!

[Geordie]

I'm flippin sick of everyone being injured. Can we not just get a run with everyone fit!!

[Rugby Fan]

...Lozowski, Solomona, Armand, Maunder and Isiekwe all debuted in Argentina and, despite a bit of squad exposure (and Armand getting a recall this weekend), haven't featured for England...

Look at who was named to the Saxons squad for the matches against South Africa "A" in 2016:

15. Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) 14. Alex Lewington (London Irish) , 13. Nick Tompkins (Saracens) , 12. Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby, 1 senior England cap) , 11. Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby, 1 senior England cap) , 10. Danny Cipriani (Wasps, 14 senior England caps) , 9. Dan Robson (Wasps) , 8. Sam Jones (Wasps) 7. Matt Kvesic (Gloucester, 3 senior England caps) , 6. Don Armand (Exeter Chiefs) , , 5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) , 4. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 23 senior England caps) (C) , 3. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 16 senior England caps), 2. Tommy Taylor (Wasps, 1 senior England cap),1. Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs)

Replacements: 16. George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons) , 17. Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks) , 18. Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps) , 19. Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs) , 20. Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs) , 21. Micky Young (Newcastle Falcons) , 22. Sam James (Sale Sharks) , 23. Christian Wade

Roko has had a brief look-in, while Armand is on the bench today but no-one else has really featured for England at the sharp end. What are we supposed to conclude? I think there are three possibilities.

1. Selection was wrong. Other players, who would have stepped up, should have gone instead.
2. Maybe these were the next best players, and it shows English rugby doesn't have much depth.
3. These players do have Test potential, and a lot more should have been involved in our World Cup planning.

[majesticimperialman]

England need to sort out the centre combo, who is the best 10-12 Ford Farrell, Ford Teo, Farrell Teo?

Watched the under 20s last night. How many of the under 20s will we see in the senior side come the summer/ autum series, and next years 6ns?

[No 7&1/2]

Brian moore giving the driving maul a bit of a kicking. We're also seeing the defence questioned and lack of attack coaches pointed out. Do we reckon as well as a couple of players a coach may be moved on? It's only really the scrum which looks to have improved in the last 6 months.

[Geordie]

Well all my pals in Aus said Jones was the worst signing which I argued with...And wow they proved me right....

[majesticimperialman]

Just because England did not win the 6ns for a 3rd time in a row does not make them a bad team/squad. Every team goes through teething troubles. One year you are up and the next you are down...it is called learning experience.

England have had the same team now since the (last RWC.) It is time to freshen up the squad going forward towards the (next RWC ) The question is who dose he bring in to freshen up the team/squad?

[leicestertinytiger]

The backrow seemed the weakest unit, maybe we will see Shields Underhill Vunipola for England on the summer tour. Also desperate to see Daly in the 13 shirt, the more he can get his hands on the ball, the better.

[Duty281]

Just because England did not win the 6ns for a 3rd time in a row does not make them a bad team/squad. Every team goes through teething troubles. One year you are up and the next you are down...it is called learning experience.

Perhaps, but the manner of the defeats, plus the inability to learn from each one, is deeply worrying. Every defeat was the same - weakness at the breakdown, too many penalties conceded, and poor defence. There will be huge pressure on Jones and England going into the South Africa tour.

Even the two games that England won were little better than average - Wales should have put England away, and Italy were utterly dismal.

[yappysnap]

Well all my pals in Aus said Jones was the worst signing which I argued with...And wow they proved me right....

By that logic he was also the best signing we've made?

A lot of ppl have gone a bit ott here.

Yea we did badly this year. But these things happen, next year we could win the thing. Means little really, just that we happen to be the best of the runner ups in world rugby if we do.

Find a balanced backrow. Find itoje some form. Sort out packs fitness out.

[king_carlos]

Well all my pals in Aus said Jones was the worst signing which I argued with...And wow they proved me right....

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater GF. It's been a dreadful string of performances but the side which provides the most players to the Lions historically struggles in the following Six Nations.

It's also important to give credit to how well Scotland and Ireland played. Scotland were exceptional against us and will challenge most sides at Murrayfield on that form. Ireland are a very good side that Schmidt has drilled to play intelligent rugby with outstanding precision and discipline. I must admit to cracking a smile at how well worked the Stander try was despite the dominance Ireland were showing, it was great rugby.

England were completely outplayed by Scotland and Ireland. The way our forwards got dominated in contact as well as the breakdown over both games was comprehensive.

The most painful thing about the France game was continuing with the same tactics and selection which was exploited so effectively by the Scottish back row. It was a solid performance by a disjointed French side yet England still failed to address the issues at the ruck.

In a strange way it does feel like England have the players coming through (or coming back...) to work on those issues though.

Underhill, if he can stay fit, dominates tackles in a way I've seen few players his age manage. Sadly he is out for the season and you'd presume the SA tour.

Tom Curry is also very dominant in the tackle and very savvy in the ruck.

The biggest missing link of course is Billy Vunipola. He is an exceptional player in attack and defence.

After that the biggest change needed in the forwards for the summer tour is fresh legs. George, Cole and Itoje have been shadows of the players they can be. Mako I thought had his best game of the season against Ireland but he needs a break. Lawes has looked like a man held together by physio tape for 2  seasons now, he needs a full preseason to rehab and get his body right.

[mid_gen]

Well all my pals in Aus said Jones was the worst signing which I argued with...And wow they proved me right....

Enough with the hysterics. I'm sure you were bleating the same about Deano last season. We've won the last 2 championships under EJ.

Ireland and especially Scotland are much improved and rightly outperformed us. France...well.

Ultimately many players have let the side down, sure there are some mitigating circumstances with injury and fatigue, but too many players haven't performed I'm this tournament. Physicality has been below par, execution has been poor.

[Geordie]

5th position?!

Yeah great stuff.

World cup contenders...don't make me laugh.

Ireland weren't great either...N.Z are quaking in sure...

[mid_gen]

I think someone needs to calm down and unbunch their panties.

[No 7&1/2]

People need to read some kipling.

[hugehandoff]

South Africa will provide Eddie with a great opportunity to find out about some other players. As others have mentioned it will be great to see a potential back row of Armand, Billy and Curry/Underhill and the back up props given a start.

Clearly a number of key stars require the summer off to ensure they are good to go for next season; Itoje, Lawes, Cole, Mako, Farrell and maybe a few others. But we can still take a very strong squad and can still win the series.

[Geordie]

I think someone needs to calm down and unbunch their panties.

Really?
Okey dokey.

[Barney McGrew did it]

We obviously haven’t suddenly become a bad side, but let’s face reality, this was the worst 6N performance I can remember (have we ever finished so low?). 3 well-beaten losses home & away, fortress HQ blown away. We look no nearer winning the next RWC that we did the last at the moment. The areas EJ originally highlighted don’t seem to have improved.

Some ideas for EJ:
Work out why so many of our BR are getting injured.
Stop playing previously injured players before they proven their fitness & form (eg Hughes).
Decide whether Ford is good enough to be our FH or drop him and move on.
Make a decision now as to whether Watson is a good test FB and if not move on.
We need a third SH & hooker to cover inevitable injuries – get it sorted EJ.
Don’t ever again pick an excellent lock to play as a below average flanker (it’s failed before someone should remind him).
Our current BR is all about potential, and has been for some time, but little proven quality – how EJ thinks we can compete for a RWC with one of the poorest BRs in tier one worries me. Start building a top quality BR core EJ FFS
My main gripe is few of our problem areas seem addressed 3 years into EJs reign.

[Mr Bounce]

Anyone else think that there's too been many England players who were being picked on their past glories rather than their current form? I understand that it isn't the 80s when amateur players were just lifted into the squad from virtual obscurity but surely the bigger picture picture is to use players who are playing well?

Joseph: Nope. Itoje: Nope. Cole, George, Launchbury, Watson and Care have all also been playing well below the level that they're capable of. Isn't it basic coaching to put out the best players that you can? Those named above seemed to have been picked on name and reputation, not current form. Itoje and Cole looked absolutely out of it. As stated above, Lawes looked held together by gaffa tape and staples (much like Moody in 2011).

Surely if the youngsters such as Mercer are in the wider squad and on form, they should get into the matchday squad? I was very surprised to see a clearly half-fit Hughes parachuted in when Mercer was available and ready. that sort of thing can't do much for the confidence. Injuries have hit us hard too, especially in the back row (Curry, Underhill, Billy Vunipola, Clifford, Hughes, and to a lesser extent Sam Jones who's been out forever). It's been a scratch built patched up back row that hasn't worked at all, yet has barely been fixed.

And that's the crux of the matter: there's obviously a few issues in the coaching set-up - we need a breakdown specialist and also a proper attack coach. Bring back Ella and Smith as we played brilliantly with them on board. Or get someone in who can assist with similar knowledge. It's an area that's sorely lacking today.

[SecretFly]

It's all too mathematical with England, I feel.

"If we do A, B and C, and slot that square into the hole that has the square shape and if we get to be World Number 1 by 6.30 pm on a rainy night in November 21st, with a new moon...

THEN, we shall win the WC the following year!


There is much too much of that stuff in English International rugby, from coaches, from their fitness stat people, from other facts and figures operators within the system.

"If we have all our numbers in just as we plan them on a computer simulation, then we'll just win the WC."

So when a number comes in that doesn't compute, the program melts down and panic sets in.  But it's not the players or results that are wrong and need correcting - it's the blueprints for success that need to be binned and a much more touchy/feely sensory approach adopted.  Players ain't computers, programs or apps.
Jones "the players are not fit enough, work them even harder to get them fit."  No, work them less to make sure the fitness they have lasts when needed, in a game.

Just probably 20% too much pseudo scientific sports-nerd bunk and 20% too little intuition.

[Scarpia]

Is the answer much simpler? Have England been found out? By other teams and by referees? Outplayed at the breakdown and penalised heavily. new tactics and a better appreciation of law changes needed. But of course I don't want that to happen.

[No 7&1/2]

I wouldn't say so no. Loss of form from some and a bit of luck needed.

[kingelderfield]

I agree the fatigue and injury issue and broader player welfare club/country friction is the back drop to our situation, however I think it should be highlighted amongst the various 'issues' we're facing, the number of miscalculations and plain mistakes that have been made by Jones and his coaches.
Surely the context for our initial post WC success was immediately obvious and so a judgement could be made as to how high our performance 'dead cat' would bounce. The peak of which was probably OZ 16, though disappointingly did not extend to a GS last year. Ever since then we have been waning and and what is so worrying is that though the slide has been incremental it has been obvious and predictable, but still the mistakes were made and the opportunity to develop was lost.
So where are we now? Well actually amongst all the hand wringing the facts are that our position is not dire and there are real opportunities to cut the dead wood and grow back afresh stronger and wiser.
Ultimately..... Does Jones understand the mistakes he is making, because given that our welfare issues and injuries will continue to occur more often than they should, if he continues to erroneously select and is unable to perceive and execute the required strategies, we will not achieve our realistic potential.
Seriously we do have the players and we do have the game, power and fluidity, to succeed - it was there at the end of yesterdays game and has actually always been there.
Let's heal our injuries and rest our bodies and tired minds for tomorrow ours.

[kingelderfield]

I cannot stress enough how crucial it is that we now rest exhausted players giving them the summer off. This decision offers us the last excellent real opportunity to experiment with other players, structures and strategies.
If Jones makes the mistake to take exhausted players then the opportunity cost is obvious and catastrophic and represents a reasonably sackable offense. That is the truth.
Definitely should be rested;
Mako Vunipola, Cole, Itoje, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Daly & Watson.
Others who toured but have been injured, plus other injured players who MAY benefit from the game time;
Kruis, Haskell, Billy Vunipola, Tuilagi, Te'o
Injured; Lawes, Hughes
Older players rested; Hartley, Brown
Retired; Wigglesworth

[kingelderfield]

Let me add I want Jones to stay.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I've seen nothing of Mercer to suggest he's ready for Int rugby Bounce.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Can't believe how badly the form tappered for. We literally where playing near the level of the All Blacks(whether we where as good is irrelevant as we didn't play them) and suddenly we went off the cliff. Jones seems like the chap when it's going well he's the bees knees, yet when it goes wrong he's not got much idea about fixing it. Similar situation when he was Australia coach.

[mikey_dragon]

Saracens worked out = England worked out.

[No 7&1/2]

Yikes. And wales still can't beat them.

[mikey_dragon]

Yikes. And wales still can't beat them.

Can we not talk about Wales on the England thread?

[No 7&1/2]

It's a 6 nauons thread so I think it's only fair. Yikes. Found out and wales still couldn't do the job.

[SecretFly]

Yis are all good fun, lads.

[stub]

NathanIiel Jacobs, I think that we are about to find out the answer to that question. If I had to guess I would say that Eddie will sort things out and get us competing with the best again. However, he has his work cut out.

[stub]

Fly, what’s so entertaining? The predicable post mortem arriving way too soon perhaps? The knee jerk short termism? These are things that need fixing in my opinion. (And I can see how they might be entertaining from outside!) Apologies if you you were entertained by something else.

[SecretFly]

Fly, what’s so entertaining? The predicable post mortem arriving way too soon perhaps? The knee jerk short termism? These are things that need fixing in my opinion. (And I can see how they might be entertaining from outside!) Apologies if you you were entertained by something else.

stub.. much too sensitive there. I don't knowingly insult teams that are down on their luck (we've had way too much of it over the years) - so you can be certain it's something else.

I was alluding to the tet-a-tet between 7 and mike.

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