England Six Nations Thread

[ChequeredJersey]

First topic message reminder :

In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell

Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench

[stub]

Like I said above it wasn't really the players on the day. It was the coaches tactics and selections that cost us.

Agree, we need to start to use our pool of players a bit more, bring them on, nurture them and rotate them. It’s doable. Tactics wise, that is most definitely fixable and Eddie is talking about bringing in some support. Do it.

[yappysnap]

Is it a case that without Billy V, the tactics just don't work?

In short, has Jones created a Gatlandball blueprint with England and it's kinda lost without its 'Jamie Roberts' - and like the criticisms of Gatland, Jones can't come up with a plan B?

England have too much talent to be a One Man team but have they materialised into a team longing for the return of one man to make the entire machine run smoothly again?

To a point yes. Or more precisely without Billy V and Hask the tactics don't work. With those two on form we can afford to ignore the breakdown and just smash everyone, our rush defense works better and we can change slow ball to dynamic ball.

Without them, but with the same tactics it just doesn't work. Suddenly we're exposed at a breakdown we don't contest with our hands, but don't have the power to smash, our defense rushes but doesn't knock back, and the slow ball stays slow.

All of this then wouldn't have been so bad with a leader at 9, but Youngs got broke and Care just doesn't seem to be that, for all his skill. Then Ford at 10 is a great attacking flyhalf but he's no O'Gara, he needs forward momentum to shine. Again all of these issues wouldn't have been hopeless if on top of that we didn't then have an out of form 13, who was meant to be the spark in the backline, and a Mike Brown who still tries hard, but just isn't the Mike Brown of '16 & '17, and his substitute is even worse.

[carpet baboon]

Is it a case that without Billy V, the tactics just don't work?

In short, has Jones created a Gatlandball blueprint with England and it's kinda lost without its 'Jamie Roberts' - and like the criticisms of Gatland, Jones can't come up with a plan B?

England have too much talent to be a One Man team but have they materialised into a team longing for the return of one man to make the entire machine run smoothly again?

To a point yes. Or more precisely without Billy V and Hask the tactics don't work. With those two on form we can afford to ignore the breakdown and just smash everyone, our rush defense works better and we can change slow ball to dynamic ball.

Without them, but with the same tactics it just doesn't work. Suddenly we're exposed at a breakdown we don't contest with our hands, but don't have the power to smash, our defense rushes but doesn't knock back, and the slow ball stays slow.

All of this then wouldn't have been so bad with a leader at 9, but Youngs got broke and Care just doesn't seem to be that, for all his skill. Then Ford at 10 is a great attacking flyhalf but he's no O'Gara, he needs forward momentum to shine. Again all of these issues wouldn't have been hopeless if on top of that we didn't then have an out of form 13, who was meant to be the spark in the backline, and a Mike Brown who still tries hard, but just isn't the Mike Brown of '16 & '17, and his substitute is even worse.

See that's what I was trying to say to scottf a few weeks back but not as elegantly. Englands game plan seemed to be reliant on a power house at 8 and when he was taken out of the equation Eddie needed a new plan, which this year he didn't seem to have.
But England have to many good players for this slide to continue. And I expect a swift and brutal return...but next six nations we will still hand your arses to you in the Aviva

[robbo277]

But the other side of the coin is that 12 clubs should produce greater depth of players for when your players are tired. Perhaps the RFU will soon be seeking changes for the 6N like they did for European Club rugby when they decided that WRU, SRU and IRFU weren't playing fair. A boycott threat on the way?

With regards to the first point, that's only true if the coach uses them.

There are a lot of potential names that could have come in for players like Mako, Itoje and Farrell. Hepburn, Ewels and Lozowski for example. Mullan, Isiekwe and Slade would be another completely different set of names. But would we have fared any better in the last 3 games with the alternates? Possibly, possibly not. We've not seen more than fleeting glances of any of them at International level. Because although we have lots of club players to pick from, we don't have that many more international players.

Admittedly not something I advocated at the time, but with hindsight we should have rested players for the lighter autumn series and/or the first game or two, which as it transpired were our easier fixtures. We could have then brought the Lions back later in the series.

[BamBam]

But the other side of the coin is that 12 clubs should produce greater depth of players for when your players are tired. Perhaps the RFU will soon be seeking changes for the 6N like they did for European Club rugby when they decided that WRU, SRU and IRFU weren't playing fair. A boycott threat on the way?

At that time, the Welsh were about as threatening as Tunbridge Wells ladies 3rd team in club rugby

I highly doubt anyone was worrying about the mighty Ospreys

[mikey_dragon]

But the other side of the coin is that 12 clubs should produce greater depth of players for when your players are tired. Perhaps the RFU will soon be seeking changes for the 6N like they did for European Club rugby when they decided that WRU, SRU and IRFU weren't playing fair. A boycott threat on the way?

At that time, the Welsh were about as threatening as Tunbridge Wells ladies 3rd team in club rugby

I highly doubt anyone was worrying about the mighty Ospreys

How times have changed eh? Fifth place in the 6N and one underperforming English team in the KO stages. Sadly it seems losing doesn't make you lot any more gracious, usually it's the fault of the ref. Ah well.

[Rugby Fan]

usually it's the fault of the ref. Ah well.

Given that the most common Welsh complaint after the England match was over a disallowed try, I don't think that's a point a Welsh supporter should make, about this tournament, without his tongue firmly in his cheek.

[mikey_dragon]

usually it's the fault of the ref. Ah well.

Given that the most common Welsh complaint after the England match was over a disallowed try, I don't think that's a point a Welsh supporter should make, about this tournament, without his tongue firmly in his cheek.

Why wouldn't people complain over a disallowed try when it was clearly scored though? Every time a team did something good against England however, the fans were here and there blaming the ref.

[BamBam]

usually it's the fault of the ref. Ah well.

Given that the most common Welsh complaint after the England match was over a disallowed try, I don't think that's a point a Welsh supporter should make, about this tournament, without his tongue firmly in his cheek.

This one tends to have his whole head up another of his orifices

[mikey_dragon]

usually it's the fault of the ref. Ah well.

Given that the most common Welsh complaint after the England match was over a disallowed try, I don't think that's a point a Welsh supporter should make, about this tournament, without his tongue firmly in his cheek.

This one tends to have his whole head up another of his orifices

Where as this one tends to be delusional and think that finishing fifth is a good result . Never mind, I'm sure if you continue to go around slagging off the Welsh on an internet forum without repercussions then you'll feel better somehow. Champs to chumps!

[Sgt_Pooly]

The Welsh outcome in this 6N has little to do with England's to be fair. England beat Wales, that's all that matters regards the two teams imo.

[mikey_dragon]

Where-as one finished fifth and the other second - you're pretty close to the wooden spoon there which is also very important...

[No 7&1/2]

Yup. Both won nothing.

[SecretFly]

What the hell can you do with a silvery cup anyway? A wooden spoon is way more handy like - me ma used to make buns using a wooden spoon and give me the wooden spoon to lick when she was finished....ah the memories.
Don't be insulting wooden spoons!

[carpet baboon]

What the hell can you do with a silvery cup anyway?  A wooden spoon is way more handy like - me ma used to make buns using a wooden spoon and give me the wooden spoon to lick when she was finished....ah the memories.
Don't be insulting wooden spoons!

But fly we won a silver cup and silver plate. We can drink and eat with shiny stuff. Which we all know is the true aim of rugby

[SecretFly]

No knives and forks????

The basterdes! Insulting us again! "Them Irish scum don't need cutlery - they use their toes."

[yappysnap]

What the hell can you do with a silvery cup anyway?

By all accounts it makes a terrible football!

[TightHEAD]

Wales benefitted by not having Nige Ref them off the park time and time again.

[mid_gen]

Watching the Bath v Exeter game....it's obvious why we got found out. AP teams just don't contest the breakdown 90% of the time.

The back row forwards just stand off and everybody gets a nice breather while the ball is recycled.

[SecretFly]

Watching the Bath v Exeter game....it's obvious why we got found out. AP teams just don't contest the breakdown 90% of the time.

The back row forwards just stand off and everybody gets a nice breather while the ball is recycled.

League-Lite?

[TightHEAD]

Maro taking the piss with his try celebration, I’m sorry mate you let your country down during the 6 nations with pathetic performances, you deserved everything written about you.

[Scottrf]

Easy on the keyboard warrioring.

[beshocked]

To be honest I agree with tighthead actually.

Maro should accept he had a bad tournament. Not take the mickey.

People actually paid money to see England's abject performances live and the rest of us watched of it on tv.

Take responsibility for your failings.

Stop feeding the ego Mccall. Maro's discipline was laughably woeful.


Oh and it would be nice in once in a while if a Saracens player actually acknowledged the importance of fans.

You know why Saracens gets such poor attendance figures? Their treatment of fans is really not good at all.

[Gooseberry]

To be honest I agree with tighthead actually.

Maro should accept he had a bad tournament. Not take the mickey.

People actually paid money to see England's abject performances live and the rest of us watched of it on tv.

Take responsibility for your failings.

Stop feeding the ego Mccall. Maro's discipline was laughably woeful.


Oh and it would be nice in once in a while if a Saracens player actually acknowledged the importance of fans.

You know why Saracens gets such poor attendance figures? Their treatment of fans is really not good at all.

Are you one of the ones that ripped up their season ticket  10 years ago?

[beshocked]

To be honest I agree with tighthead actually.

Maro should accept he had a bad tournament. Not take the mickey.

People actually paid money to see England's abject performances live and the rest of us watched of it on tv.

Take responsibility for your failings.

Stop feeding the ego Mccall. Maro's discipline was laughably woeful.


Oh and it would be nice in once in a while if a Saracens player actually acknowledged the importance of fans.

You know why Saracens gets such poor attendance figures? Their treatment of fans is really not good at all.

Are you one of the ones that ripped up their season ticket  10 years ago?

Nah, I stuck with them loyally till 2014 - going to many games live. I'd go to upward 10 a season.

Now I only very rarely go to games - been to only 2-3 in the last 4 years. Still watch them a bit on TV.

I still follow them but less emphatically. Seriously the amount of time sunk into going to games - players don't have any appreciation of that.


As I said they treated their fans badly and I was one of the more devout ones. I am well placed to know this.

[Guest]

Looks to me like Maro is taking responsibility for his poor performance by refusing to accept the readily available excuse of being tired that the media and fans have been falling over themselves to offer him.

I'd be much more annoyed if he had taken the opportunity to blame fatigue, training, tactics, etc.

Also, rugby players' only responsibility to the paying public is to try their hardest to win a game of rugby, and that was the case with every single England player throughout the 6N. You aren't owed anything more than that.

Oh and it would be nice in once in a while if a Saracens player actually acknowledged the importance of fans.

You know why Saracens gets such poor attendance figures? Their treatment of fans is really not good at all.

Been refused some more autographs?

[beshocked]

So I suppose you believe a gilded cage is the best thing for the players?

Keep contact from the outside world, fans, media etc to a minimum - just take the muzzles off when the matches start no?

Is that all their responsibility is now?

I disagree. If I don't have any faith in the players then why should I support them?

Fair enough - you think winning is everything - I disagree.

I expect more to be honest.


Itoje's comments give the impression he still has much to learn. He's a young man whose stuck in a gilded cage and has a lack of understanding of the real world.

He might be a fine rugby player but there's more to life than playing rugby.

[No 7&1/2]

It's a job. A nice job to have but a job all the same.

[beshocked]

It's a job. A nice job to have but a job all the same.

Sure... being a professional sportsman is exactly the same as a car salesman.

Being prime minister is a job too but has different commitments.

Not sure you get it - mentally you can't clock out after 9-5 in certain roles.

Sure you can if you just pick up the paycheck and don't aspire for more but I think it's wrong if you believe rugby players should simply be robots -

Rugby playing machines that only focus on winning the game and nothing else.

[No 7&1/2]

You'll have to help me out with what you're getting at here.

[robbo277]

It's a job. A nice job to have but a job all the same.

Sure... being a professional sportsman is exactly the same as a car salesman.

Being prime minister is a job too but has different commitments.

Not sure you get it - mentally you can't clock out after 9-5 in certain roles.

Sure you can if you just pick up the paycheck and don't aspire for more but I think it's wrong if you believe rugby players should simply be robots -

Rugby playing machines that only focus on winning the game and nothing else.

I would agree that rugby players need to do more than just win games. They are ambassadors for the teams they represent and the game in itself. If a rugby club's brand is not connecting with their fans, then the fans will stop coming and the money will start drying up - then the club has a serious issue.

Where I'd disagree is on the assertion that that is different to any other job. A car salesman has to engage positively with his clients and potential clients. Otherwise he could be replaced by a pile of order forms and a pen chained to the table.

Another thing I'd question would be the bigger effect of Itoje's actions. A lot of people who aren't regular rugby fans probably watched the Six Nations. Some of them would have read all the fallout and some of them would have heard of this incident. It may not be what a traditional rugby fan wants to see, but it could appeal to a wider audience.

[beshocked]

It's a job. A nice job to have but a job all the same.

Sure... being a professional sportsman is exactly the same as a car salesman.

Being prime minister is a job too but has different commitments.

Not sure you get it - mentally you can't clock out after 9-5 in certain roles.

Sure you can if you just pick up the paycheck and don't aspire for more but I think it's wrong if you believe rugby players should simply be robots -

Rugby playing machines that only focus on winning the game and nothing else.

I would agree that rugby players need to do more than just win games. They are ambassadors for the teams they represent and the game in itself. If a rugby club's brand is not connecting with their fans, then the fans will stop coming and the money will start drying up - then the club has a serious issue.

Where I'd disagree is on the assertion that that is different to any other job. A car salesman has to engage positively with his clients and potential clients. Otherwise he could be replaced by a pile of order forms and a pen chained to the table.

Another thing I'd question would be the bigger effect of Itoje's actions. A lot of people who aren't regular rugby fans probably watched the Six Nations. Some of them would have read all the fallout and some of them would have heard of this incident. It may not be what a traditional rugby fan wants to see, but it could appeal to a wider audience.

I agree with your first paragraph and of course Saracens do have the issue of racking up a significant financial loss every year.

Whenever you find an article about Saracens or sound bites from players they rarely if ever mention fans. Not in a positive light anyway.

The car salesman isn't a role model, they aren't representing a club, they don't have a supporter base, they are not really held accountable.

Of course they need to maintain some standards but you don't have people paying to regularly see car salesman at work.


What would appeal to a wider audience?

[Guest]

My point regarding player responsibility was in response to this:

Maro should accept he had a bad tournament. Not take the mickey.

People actually paid money to see England's abject performances live and the rest of us watched of it on tv.

Take responsibility for your failings.

Stop feeding the ego Mccall. Maro's discipline was laughably woeful.

Maro is contracted by Saracens and the RFU to attempt to win rugby matches, not to explain his penalty count to you. The fact that people pay to watch this doesn't entitle them to some kind of grovelling apology for a slightly sub-par performance.

What exactly are you saying he should do? Please be specific.

[beshocked]

My point regarding player responsibility was in response to this:

Maro should accept he had a bad tournament. Not take the mickey.

People actually paid money to see England's abject performances live and the rest of us watched of it on tv.

Take responsibility for your failings.

Stop feeding the ego Mccall. Maro's discipline was laughably woeful.

Maro is contracted by Saracens and the RFU to attempt to win rugby matches, not to explain his penalty count to you. The fact that people pay to watch this doesn't entitle them to some kind of grovelling apology for a slightly sub-par performance.

What exactly are you saying he should do? Please be specific.

Not asking for grovelling. Just that he should actually not be closed off and try show some understanding of fans who pay significant money to follow club and country.

Using both their time and effort to do so also. If you take supporters for granted then you can potentially alienate them.

Sadly Itoje shows a lack of this. He's young though.

[Guest]

Ok so what exactly would you like? A public apology? An explanation about his performance and discipline? Would a Tweet be enough or a does it need to be during a broadcast interview?


From my perspective Cole was pretty poor but he doesn't owe me or any other fan any kind of apology or justification. If he celebrated a try by pretending to fall asleep I'd be happy because it would show that he's not willing to use the easy excuse of being fatigued.

[Geordie]

I have to say I agree with Beshocked here.

Regardless of which ever club players should take the time for fans. Rugby has always been very family orientated...and at the falcons, players not involved in the game often mingle and chat to fans etc.

A few months back I was sat in the club house at a table just on my own before a game and Nili Latu and his kids came in and he asked if they could join my table to grab a snack. He chatted away...top bloke..

That's rugby to me...regardless of being a world cup winner, a top club level player or local club 4th team player...theres no egos.


As to the Itoje situation...i'd love to know whats gone on in the England camp. If Itoje appears to be very fit, opposite to the reports and can put in a top class performance like that, then to me the issue is with the England set up not the players...

[No 7&1/2]

Until we know what beshocked is annoyed at how do we know. If it's not giving selfies again who cares?

[No 7&1/2]

Ah reading that I'm a '!%, but unless players are deliberately breaking club rules it's hard to call. Lots of boro fans used to slag off Gascoigne. They didn't realise the money or time he put in.

[yappysnap]

I have to say I agree with Beshocked here.

Regardless of which ever club players should take the time for fans. Rugby has always been very family orientated...and at the falcons, players not involved in the game often mingle and chat to fans etc.

A few months back I was sat in the club house at a table just on my own before a game and Nili Latu and his kids came in and he asked if they could join my table to grab a snack. He chatted away...top bloke..

That's rugby to me...regardless of being a world cup winner, a top club level player or local club 4th team player...theres no egos.


As to the Itoje situation...i'd love to know whats gone on in the England camp. If Itoje appears to be very fit, opposite to the reports and can put in a top class performance like that, then to me the issue is with the England set up not the players...

Agree with all that.

On the other hand, once outside of the club the players owe us nothing, I've spoken to some players around town before, but if they didn't want to I could totally understand. Players are people, some are better at chatting, some probably have terrible people skills.

And yes if the England players go back to their clubs and suddenly look a lot better it does raise questions.

Was it only itoje who played well on the weekend or others too?

[Geordie]

Very true Yappy it's a balance I guess.

I haven't seen the stats of the other England players. I think Itoje stood out because everyone was saying he was wrecked.

[nlpnlp]

I think all the "armchair experts" were saying Itoje was wrecked to explain his average 6 Nations performance. I don't think he has said he is/was tired, he just accepts he had an average tournament. I also don't agree with the argument that players should be role models. If that was the case Mother Teresa would have had hundreds of caps for Romania and Cliff Richard would be England's top points sorer. Itoje owes fans nothing - he will be paid to play rugby as long as he does it well. As soon as he doesn't he will be dropped by Saracens and he will go back to playing for Barking 5ths. He is paid for putting his body on the line, not being Mr Nice Guy.

[No9]

I think all the "armchair experts" were saying Itoje was wrecked to explain his average 6 Nations performance.  I don't think he has said he is/was tired, he just accepts he had an average tournament.  I also don't agree with the argument that players should be role models.  If that was the case Mother Teresa would have had hundreds of caps for Romania and Cliff Richard would be England's top points sorer.  Itoje owes fans nothing - he will be paid to play rugby as long as he does it well.  As soon as he doesn't he will be dropped by Saracens and he will go back to playing for Barking 5ths.  He is paid for putting his body on the line, not being Mr Nice Guy.

Its not mutually exclusive, it is possible to do both. Take the Welsh XV, they put they're bodies on the line and they are excellent role models for the youngsters (Mr Nice Guys). Dont know how many of you knew, to be honest I didn't, but as stated on Scrum V this week, Dan Biggar donates all his 6 Nations fees to charity. And I know everyone of the squad does charitable work, coaching sessions for kids, etc.. One thing I can say about the Welsh squad, is that they are excellent ambassadors for Welsh Rugby.

[beshocked]

nlplp of course a player isn't going to say they are tired.

The dip in performance in the 6 nations say otherwise. Okay... so Itoje had a good game vs a poorly performing Quins side - it doesn't make everything right with the world.

Getting a fractured jaw doesn't help - you can say it has no impact but come on....

I've been saying for a long time that Itoje gives away too many penalties -he needs to work on his game anyway.

Sometimes players need to adapt better.

[Geordie]

I think it affected Itoje not having a fully in form Kruis beside him as well.

Those two worked as a pair...cleaning out together, attacking rucks as a combo...even when tackling...one would tackle a player and the other was right there to attempt the turnover.

Kruis hasn't been fit or on form for sometime, and its affected the duo's play.

[robbo277]

I think it affected Itoje not having a fully in form Kruis beside him as well.

Those two worked as a pair...cleaning out together, attacking rucks as a combo...even when tackling...one would tackle a player and the other was right there to attempt the turnover.

Kruis hasn't been fit or on form for sometime, and its affected the duo's play.

Then he'll have to start adapting to playing with other second rows. He didn't seem to have many problems alongside Jones last summer.

Rolling back slight, personally I don't mind his celebration. It might have turned some traditionalists off, but I'm sure other fans would have loved it. As long as it isn't anything toxic to the club's brand, coaches and higher-ups will not mind a player showing a bit of personality.

This comes about every now and again. It used to be Ashton with his splashes (not that he was the only one who did it, but he was the only one who got pilloried for doing it). Recently saw a comment on twitter bemoaning players celebrating a try when they were already 15 points to the good. It does my head in. When I play I always try and run to the try scorer to congratulate him regardless of score or situation, not to disrespect the opposition. We won quite convincingly last weekend, and one of the last tries was scored by a guy who was on 20-odd appearances this season and it was his first try. He'd been banging on about scoring for the last couple of months, so when he finally got over the line about 8 of us ran over to hug him. Not because of the match situation or to disrespect the opposition, but because it was an internal celebration.

Similarly, the only time anyone from our team does an elaborate celebration it's normally an inside joke within our team and not an attempt to disrespect the opposition. As an example, the first game I played after my son was born someone told me that if I scored a try I had to do the Bebeto cradle celebration from the 1994 World Cup. I scored a try off the back of a maul, got up with the ball and cradled it. That is obviously an internal thing to me and my team, but the issue is without that perspective it can look distasteful. But people should understand that these are people who work hard for something and want to show a bit of emotional release when their hard work is rewarded. As long as no-one is running around giving everyone the finger or engaging the opposition team in their celebration (when it would become gloating), does it really matter if and how a player celebrates a try?

[nlpnlp]

I am sorry but I think Kruis is a bang average player. Somehow he got into the first Lions test team and then was dropped never to be seen again. I think Itoje was tired and played averagely for England this 6 Nations - not that he missed Kruis who somehow makes him better. Kruis to me looks like a club player and nothing more. We have 3 good second row players in Otoje, Lawes and Launchbury, we don't need Kruis.

The Itoje celebration is in part an attempt to antagonise opponents - in the same way that players try to hold down/bond in players who don't want to be in a maul. If an opponent responds by slapping him he gets the penalty - result. The Ash splash was a "look at me" thing, which ultimately got him a slap from Manu and dropped from England when he wasn't scoring every other game. We put up with the Billy Big Balls as long as you are the dogs, but as soon as you drop off the perch, then you are gone.

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