6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

First topic message reminder :

I’ve always thought that England are a very good team and their fans are lovely and the most popular.

Feel free to add your own thoughts as we approach next weekend’s match as we travel over to visit them and celebrate with them.  And I’m sure that they’ll be as welcoming and fun-filled as they always are whenever we play them.  

As we all know, it’s only a game and sure it doesn’t matter who wins.....


Lovely England Team

Watson, May, Joseph, Te'o, Daly, Farrell, Wigglesworth, Simmonds, Haskell, Robshaw, Kruis, Itoje, Sinckler, Hartley, Mako

George, MArler, Cole, Launchbury, Armand, Care, Ford, Brown

Super Controlling Unbelievable Mauling Monster Yeti Irish Team

Kearney, Earls, Ringrose, Aki, Stockdale, Sexton Murray, Stander, Leavy, O'Mahony, Ryan, Henderson, Furlong, Best, Healy.

Reps: Cronin, McGrath, Porter, Toner, Murphy, Marmion, Carbery, Larmour.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well we've lost twice. Both times we could have lost. It's despondency all round from England fans and a how many will we win by from a lot of irish. Can't help but feel england will put in a performance.

On the contrary, 7, I see a lot of renewed hope with English posters and a constant refrain of home advantage and I only see one Irish lad, our resident naughty-but-nice wummer, saying Ireland will have an easy time of it.

Then again, we have to hold to our instincts and convictions, both sides, however divergent from the final reality they are.

For my part, if Joe thrashes the dressing room before the game, then it'll be a good sign.     Joe is losing his pleasant cool disposition this season.  He's much more salty, reactionary and bloody minded.  I think he's done all the blackboard stuff he can do now.  He's run out of patience even himself with the patterns and systems and clinical overviews.  I think he knows he now wants his players to just go out and be belligerent - to bully their game rather than contain someone else's.

So far it's working - the new spitting cobra Joe and the new edgy and ruthless Ireland.  England will try to intimidate at home and we'll see how the younger or newish Irish boys react, especially in the second half.  
Will they trust their own hype - that they need to fear nobody - or will the doubts surface?  That's England's job - to make the younger/newer Irish contingent doubt their readiness for serious International competition.

During the week though I was thinking that there is something about this Ireland side.  England might prove me wrong.  During the week I had this constant feeling that Bundee Aki is going to have a monster game.  England might prove me wrong

Hmm I think they're both very fine teams stewie. As gf indicates I think if we can out out near enough our 1st team I think we're the best in the world. Even the team as it is is blooming good. Nz ireland and england have a fag paper between them though on form. Should be a great game this.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:On paper, the England side is better imo.

Unfortuantly for us....We're not in form and don't seem to have a game plan, both things the Irish have.

I can't see this one being a pretty game.

Really
Inferior front row, inferior backrow, inferior half backs
Only place I would England in front is the back three

I'd take your halfbacks, POM and Furlong with both sides on form. I don't think the Ireland team has better players, but they are certainly more cohesive as a unit.

Surely you would take the Ireland backrow? England's backrow has been quite poor compared to Ireland's.

POM....as mentioned. Stander is decent but not a fantastic 8 imo, I like him at 6. If Lawes was playing you'd have a clear advantage, I don't rate him in the back row at all.

Interesting. Surely Stander is better that Hughes. I like Robshaw but I reckon Leavy, O'Brien and VdF are all better 7s. If England had a decent 7 I'm sure Robshaw would play 6.

All depends on getting quick ball for both sides. Will be fascinating to see. I cannot see how England will sorted out their issues in just 1 week and certainly they will be less creative having lost Ford. However, I do think the changes are sensible bearing in mind where we currently are. A big IF, but if England are still in it in the latter stages then Ford could have a major impact? Might well put JJ through a gap to finally see off the plucky Irish in the last 10 minutes.

Hughes isn't playing but I actually think they're pretty close at 8. Stander is a class act but more effective at 6 imo.

Hopefully in the future our backrow will look more like Robshaw/Armand at 6, Billy/Nathan at 8 and T.Curry/Underhill at 7. Better ball carrying, a genuine fetcher at 7 and better balance. But for now it is needs must.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:On paper, the England side is better imo.

Unfortuantly for us....We're not in form and don't seem to have a game plan, both things the Irish have.

I can't see this one being a pretty game.

Really
Inferior front row, inferior backrow, inferior half backs
Only place I would England in front is the back three

I'd take your halfbacks, POM and Furlong with both sides on form. I don't think the Ireland team has better players, but they are certainly more cohesive as a unit.

Surely you would take the Ireland backrow? England's backrow has been quite poor compared to Ireland's.

POM....as mentioned. Stander is decent but not a fantastic 8 imo, I like him at 6. If Lawes was playing you'd have a clear advantage, I don't rate him in the back row at all.

Interesting. Surely Stander is better that Hughes. I like Robshaw but I reckon Leavy, O'Brien and VdF are all better 7s. If England had a decent 7 I'm sure Robshaw would play 6.

We do...and from them I think its out of 3 to really make it their own.

However
Underhill is injured
Its too big a game to drop either of the Curry's in.

Personally i just don't see Nathan Hughes as good enough. When he broke on to the scene he was just an insane beast of a player. He looks a shadow of that player these days.

I think we need to look elsewhere...but the question is..WHERE?

Billy is permanently struggling as well.

Hopefully Mercer will come good?

I'm not a Hughes fan either, compared to a fully fit Billy he is division 2.

I think Ireland will be testing Watsons defence a huge amount.

You can expect a few bombs launched up by Sexton in the first 10 minutes!

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Ireland will be testing Watsons defence a huge amount.

You can expect a few bombs launched up by Sexton in the first 10 minutes!

The way he is kicking get ready in row F to catch a few.

Like fly I have a good feeling. Too many things are going right for Ireland right now, and as good as Englands players are too many seem to be struggling for form.
I'm well aware that if England click, and start playing like they can it's going to be a long and painful afternoon for us.
But something just seems a bit different about this Ireland team right now.
They have a steely dead eyed fire about them, but they are playing with a strange joy, they are loving the hard nosed graft they are putting in and you can feel the collective will to win

This Irish team wouldn't beat the All Blacks, wouldn't even beat Aus. Why they are getting all the plaudits is beyond me, they have done enough to win the six nations but it's been a very poor year.

England could very well go out there and smash them.

TightHEAD wrote:This Irish team wouldn't beat the All Blacks, wouldn't even beat Aus. Why they are getting all the plaudits is beyond me, they have done enough to win the six nations but it's been a very poor year.

England could very well go out there and smash them.

Beat the All Blacks last season, beat Aus the last time we played them (also last season).  Third 6N title in five years. But good luck with smashing us, personally I think it'll be a a few points either way without anyone getting 'smashed'.

I reckon a few points either way is the likely result too.

The all blacks were on tour and more interested in sightseeing and got complacent!

Can see England winning by double figures easily.

Yis are all doing a mighty fine job of stoking the fires of publicity for this one anyway. The cheques will be in the post to us from Six Nations admin.....................

NOT! - the stingy scummy no-good dirty bast........ oops! me inner Eddie almost came out there.

Okay... a little exercise for the stats guys here.

Which player on either side is the most highly decorated? Most cups, wins against higher ranked sides and plates and flying ducks and things on their mantelpieces? I don't know the answer so it's not a trick question.

It must be Rob Kearney on the Irish side?

Don't know who it would be on the England side.

I would suspect its one of the Sarries lads..Farrell, Itoje, Mako or Kruis.

Cant think of anyone else it could be really.

Farrells got 3 premier league titles, 2 European Champions cup, 2 6ns winners, and a European player of the year. That's aside from any other AW cups, etc etc...
So he's probably the best.

To be fair Sexton has 3 HCs, 2 Celtic league titles and 3 6 nations victories. Sexton is 32 though.

So the proper answer is probably him but......

For his age - Itoje has the most impressive record - 2 AP titles, LV Cup winner, U20s winning captain, 2 6 nations titles, 2 ERCCs and a European cup. Successful away tour of Australia. Only 23.

My vote goes to Itoje because if you think of the amount of silverware he's managed to acquire in such a short space of time.

That's a very good England XV. I can see the logic of dropping Ford as he tends to get bullied by Sexton regardless of form. Never really thought much of Wigglesworth but he does play with Farrell every week so a strong pair. Against that Murray and Sexton have been incredible this tournament Sextons goalkicking aside. What has really stood out is their sheer agression. They were like violent animals in contact against Wales.

Centres look like a great battle. England have had the edge out wide recently but Earls is in some form and Stockdale can't stop scoring. Up front will be very physical as per usual. All in all I think the starting teams are very even. For once though I prefer the Irish bench to the English on ability if not experience.

Engine wrote:All in all I think the starting teams are very even.

I agree, but I think Joe has the edge over Eddie. Which is why I am backing Ireland to win.


Don't let us down Joe!

I must admit, the Irish halfbacks are very very good. They really execute the Irish game to a tee...they are a clear level ahead of our options currently.

SecretFly wrote:Okay... a little exercise for the stats guys here.  

Which player on either side is the most highly decorated?  Most cups, wins against higher ranked sides and plates and flying ducks and things on their mantelpieces?  I don't know the answer so it's not a trick question.

It must be Rob Kearney on the Irish side?

Don't know who it would be on the England side.

Internationally is quite easy to work out for England. We have trophies in 2011, 2016 and 2017 (unless you're counting Calcutta Cups...).

Looking at 2011 Hartley, Cole, Haskell, Youngs and Care all featured then and in the last two successes with 3 Six Nations wins (2011, 2016, 2017). Domestically, Cole and Youngs have both been playing for Leicester for over 10 years and have picked up 4 Premiership medals, but nothing in Europe. Care has 1 Premiership and an Amlin Cup with Quins, as does Hartley with Northampton.

The interesting one is Haskell. He was around the Wasps squad in 03-04 and 04-05 when they won 2 Premierships, although whether there is a de minimis limit for getting a medal, I'm not sure (he made 5 and 8 appearances, and at least one of the appearances in 04-05 was a European game). But he was definitely involved in the 06-07 Heineken Cup win and the 07-08 Aviva Premiership.

I'd say Haskell's haul of 1 Grand Slam, 3 Championships, 1 European Cup and 1 Premiership is probably better than the Leicester pair, because of that European Cup.

Looking at players who weren't involved in 2011, then Farrell's haul of 1 Grand Slam, 2 Championships, 2 European Cups and 3 Premierships is probably the best, and probably the best overall when you compare directly with Haskell (1 fewer Championships, but an extra European Cup and 2 Premierships). Farrell also has 2 Lions tours (and a winning series) to Haskell's 1.

If we're looking at the Under-20 World Cup, Nowell, Watson, Clifford and Itoje all have winners medals and featured heavily over the last 2 Championship wins for England. As beshocked pointed out, Itoje has the best club record of the lot.

So I'd say possibly Farrell, Itoje then Haskell in that order. Other Sarries like Mako, George and Kruis who have featured for England in 2016 and 2017 will have a similar set of medals. Cole and Youngs are up there because of their relentless domestic success with Leicester in the earlier part of the decade, and Care and Hartley also have decent hauls.

TightHEAD wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Ireland will be testing Watsons defence a huge amount.

You can expect a few bombs launched up by Sexton in the first 10 minutes!

The way he is kicking get ready in row F to catch a few.

His kicking has been fine - one off day against Wales between the post but other than that no problem.

Really liking the confidence from our English friends in believing these are evenly matched teams.

I just hope you guys aren't too upset on Saturday evening, there's nothing wrong with a bit of passion clouding our judgement from time to time

rodders wrote:Really liking the confidence from our English friends in believing these are evenly matched teams.

I just hope you guys aren't too upset on Saturday evening, there's nothing wrong with a bit of passion clouding our judgement from time to time

If it was a decider they'd be some upset at a loss but as long as we're competitive and give yous a game. Its the whole "celtic" coat tailing on the social media that gives me the sh1ts..

There's "celtic" coat tailing going on on social media?

Like the 'Celtic' coat tailing that went on when we were trying to get a World Cup Tournament and only the English supported us?

Strange days indeed...most peculiar, momma.

Breadvan wrote:

rodders wrote:Really liking the confidence from our English friends in believing these are evenly matched teams.

I just hope you guys aren't too upset on Saturday evening, there's nothing wrong with a bit of passion clouding our judgement from time to time

If it was a decider they'd be some upset at a loss but as long as we're competitive and give yous a game. Its the whole "celtic" coat tailing on the social media that gives me the sh1ts..

Didn't notice it and no reason for any coat tailing, Scotland and Wales are both looking at deserved top 3 finishes

SecretFly wrote:There's "celtic" coat tailing going on on social media?

The only celtic coat tailing I saw lately was Leo making fast friends with Donald

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:There's "celtic" coat tailing going on on social media?

The only celtic coat tailing I saw lately was Leo making fast friends with Donald

"I'm going to tell him I deplore his politics. I'm going to tell him he's nuts. I'm going to stand up to him and tell him Hillary should have won by right and he's probably illegitimate. I'm going to tell him he'll never be welcome in Ireland again!"

"Hello Mr Donald, sir, your eminence. Could I just say Please come to Ireland coz we'd love to have you and I'm a great ass kisser if ever you'd like your toes licked."

rodders wrote:

Breadvan wrote:

rodders wrote:Really liking the confidence from our English friends in believing these are evenly matched teams.

I just hope you guys aren't too upset on Saturday evening, there's nothing wrong with a bit of passion clouding our judgement from time to time

If it was a decider they'd be some upset at a loss but as long as we're competitive and give yous a game. Its the whole "celtic" coat tailing on the social media that gives me the sh1ts..

Didn't notice it and no reason for any coat tailing, Scotland and Wales are both looking at deserved top 3 finishes  

2 loses and its like the 80s again Jones out!

Breadvan wrote:

rodders wrote:

Breadvan wrote:

rodders wrote:Really liking the confidence from our English friends in believing these are evenly matched teams.

I just hope you guys aren't too upset on Saturday evening, there's nothing wrong with a bit of passion clouding our judgement from time to time

If it was a decider they'd be some upset at a loss but as long as we're competitive and give yous a game. Its the whole "celtic" coat tailing on the social media that gives me the sh1ts..

Didn't notice it and no reason for any coat tailing, Scotland and Wales are both looking at deserved top 3 finishes  

2 loses and its like the 80s again  Jones out!

3 losses cough cough ...

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:There's "celtic" coat tailing going on on social media?

The only celtic coat tailing I saw lately was Leo making fast friends with Donald

"I'm going to tell him I deplore his politics.  I'm going to tell him he's nuts.  I'm going to stand up to him and tell him Hillary should have won by right and he's probably illegitimate.  I'm going to tell him he'll never be welcome in Ireland again!"

"Hello Mr Donald, sir, your eminence.  Could I just say Please come to Ireland coz we'd love to have you and I'm a great ass kisser if ever you'd like your toes licked."

Leo is a cute hoor, no doubt about it....

Despite the fact Ireland have won  all there games and England losing 2 games this 6ns i still believe that this game will be tough to call....Ireland coming to twickers, will not be easy for them.

Eddie Jones as made some changes to the team for which he believes is the best for this game...we will see on saturday.

So who is the pressure on England or Ireland? Ireland going for the third Grand Slam in the countrys history will surely be more pressure for them than England trying to stop them right?...So far the team playing at home as won the game, apart from that drop goal from sexton to clinch the game in the dying moments against France.

With England playing at home will motivation to get the win and stop Ireland from getting the Grand Slam....tough game to call.

majesticimperialman wrote:Despite the fact Ireland have won  all there games and England losing 2 games this 6ns i still believe that this game will be tough to call....Ireland coming to twickers, will not be easy for them.

Eddie Jones as made some changes to the team for which he believes is the best for this game...we will see on saturday.

So who is the pressure on England or Ireland? Ireland going for the third Grand Slam in the countrys history will surely be more pressure for them than England trying to stop them right?...So far the team playing at home as won the game, apart from that drop goal from sexton to clinch the game in the dying moments against France.

With England playing at home will motivation to get the win and stop Ireland from getting the Grand Slam....tough game to call.

England have said their motivation is to win at Twickenham and protect a 15 match unbeaten home run in the tournament. I think it's right that England focus on themselves, what they want to achieve and what they need to put right, rather than simply stopping Ireland.

It's a game you can't call until it's played.  Too many factors and two teams that can get a foothold and really create oodles of domination depending on which side gets that solid foothold.
England have the benefits of being at home.  They will be driven on by their crowd if they get a platform in the game.  That platform can come at any time and who knows when Jones has it planned for.  Maybe he just wants to try to unseat Ireland in the first ten minutes with an explosion of pace and aggression?  Maybe he wants to wait in the long grass and let Ireland blow off their steam in the first half only to unleash the caged English animal sometime in the second half?

And Ireland will have it's own ideas about when to inject their hardest levels and hit England with a killer period.  Both sides have that in their arsenal.

I do think though that Jones has obviously been attentive to the Irish games, and by looking at how his players performed against France, I think he's got to be looking at how Ireland become lax on the fringes towards the end of a game when the minds are that bit more tired and the legs are willing but they don't have the energy.  That's our weak time and I think England chewed up the ground in that end-game period against France.

Ireland will know that they've been targeted at the end of games and down those outside channels.  So against Scotland Ireland seemed to realise that attack and possession is the best defence towards the end of a game.  It's a tiring game too, considering how much energy Ireland puts into breakdown and possession, but with the bench coming on - and Ireland have rapid fire attacking players on the bench - I think Ireland will be reluctant to sit back and let England have possession+attack in the last quarter of the game.

But again, both sides will have their intentions, but which side will impose those intentions?

The folks at Twickenham know how things are going to go

majesticimperialman wrote:Despite the fact Ireland have won  all there games and England losing 2 games this 6ns i still believe that this game will be tough to call....Ireland coming to twickers, will not be easy for them.

Eddie Jones as made some changes to the team for which he believes is the best for this game...we will see on saturday.

So who is the pressure on England or Ireland? Ireland going for the third Grand Slam in the countrys history will surely be more pressure for them than England trying to stop them right?...So far the team playing at home as won the game, apart from that drop goal from sexton to clinch the game in the dying moments against France.

With England playing at home will motivation to get the win and stop Ireland from getting the Grand Slam....tough game to call.

I honestly believe there is much more pressure on England. If Ireland lose they are still champions, if England lose the rot continues, they finish 5th in the 6 nations and lose their unbeaten record in Twickers. To me it seems like England have a lot more to lose.

Grand Slam opportunities are few and far between. If Ireland lose they will be chokers. There is plenty of pressure on both teams.

England have more to lose because let's face it, people are saying to Ireland that the 'home game' ritual has the result stacked against them anyway. So fans themselves, from all sides, are giving the Irish an 'out' and won't be too critical of Ireland if they lose - England at Home almost an impossible task.
England need a positive end to this competition especially at home.

Sounds like the old "No the other team are favourites" - "No no they are favourites" argument. Pressure to win a Grand Slam at Twickenham against the English, or the pressure of winning a game to finish possibly 3rd or 5th. Frankly as an England fan who cares - there is first and then there is the rest.

nlpnlp wrote:Grand Slam opportunities are few and far between.  If Ireland lose they will be chokers.  There is plenty of pressure on both teams.

Don't think so really. England have won the 6 nations 6 times but only two grand slams. I don't consider them chokers.

nlpnlp wrote:Sounds like the old "No the other team are favourites" - "No no they are favourites" argument.  Pressure to win a Grand Slam at Twickenham against the English, or the pressure of winning a game to finish possibly 3rd or 5th.  Frankly as an England fan who cares - there is first and then there is the rest.

Oh I don't mind the favourites tag, nipnip... if it's given genuinely.
If it's handed to us hoping for an Irish implosion under the pressure then I still wouldn't mind the favourites tag - but England would be trying to kid some very wise people if they insisted they have no serious intent of their own for some very serious reasons -
New Zealand is coming up later this year, the one Jones has been planning for all along. He and his team will want to reassure themselves that the two losses on the road were a blip - they'll also more importantly want New Zealand to see that it was a blip. A lot riding on this England, not only the result but the performance.

Collapse2005 wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Despite the fact Ireland have won  all there games and England losing 2 games this 6ns i still believe that this game will be tough to call....Ireland coming to twickers, will not be easy for them.

Eddie Jones as made some changes to the team for which he believes is the best for this game...we will see on saturday.

So who is the pressure on England or Ireland? Ireland going for the third Grand Slam in the countrys history will surely be more pressure for them than England trying to stop them right?...So far the team playing at home as won the game, apart from that drop goal from sexton to clinch the game in the dying moments against France.

With England playing at home will motivation to get the win and stop Ireland from getting the Grand Slam....tough game to call.

I honestly believe there is much more pressure on England. If Ireland lose they are still champions, if England lose the rot continues, they finish 5th in the 6 nations and lose their unbeaten record in Twickers. To me it seems like England have a lot more to lose.

Totally agree with this.

I also believe that this is a significant point as all things being equal ( I do actually respect the England team more than my earlier wumming suggests ) the motivation to achieve will win out over the motivation/fear to avoid and if this is tight that this will benefit Ireland more than England. That said Ireland have been vulnerable late in games...

So let’s get this right

Ireland are the favourites
England will lose
England have the most to lose
England have had their cheating inside-man eliminated
England’s coach has done his bit to motivate Ireland
England’s coach is a bit of a muppet anyways
Ireland have the least to lose, the most to gain, the luck of the Irish, and not a care in the world
And Ireland will win

Right I’m off to the bookies to put a pound on England

I don't know if England will win or lose but for me they clearly have a lot more to lose than Ireland in this game.

Would you rather finish 5th if you are England and lose or first if you are Ireland and lose?

I disagree on the Eddie Jones comments, they were harmless.

This 6N is a write off now for England. 3rd, 4th...5th, it doesn't really matter.

There's obviously pressure on England as we're at home and have just lost 2 games. It's a different kind of pressure on Ireland though. They've won 2 GS's....just 2....with more than a 50 year gap between them. I think you're mistaken if you don't think there's a huge amount of pressure of this Ireland team.

Saying that though, I think Ireland will do it.

I wouldn't say pressure... I'd term it desire - a desire to get a Slam. Some of the younger or newer players won't be giving a thought to the history of Slams - they'll just know they're the biggest thing to be had in a 6N and they'll know they have an opportunity to play for one.

So with Ireland it's hunger not really pressure. With England it's ..well I can only word it one way, pressure. Nobody in England want's to come 5th, even if it's just a points difference fifth. Fans don't want it, players doesn't want it, Jones doesn't want it.
They want to win. I suppose winning itself is the final pressure. Both sides want to win - strange but true.

Collapse2005 wrote:I don't know if England will win or lose but for me they clearly have a lot more to lose than Ireland in this game.

Would you rather finish 5th if you are England and lose or first if you are Ireland and lose?

I disagree on the Eddie Jones comments, they were harmless.

Brainless comments by Eddie, but if the Ireland team are looking to them for motivation, they should question why they're playing rugby. I'm sure the comments won't get a mention in the team talk.

I don't think England will finish 5th if they lose, I think Wales will beat France and therefore a loss would see us 4th. Although to be honest the position would not bother me, I'd be more bothered by the fact we had lost 3 games - including one at home - which had caused the low finish. 3rd or 4th (depending on win or lose) isn't too relevant. I'd rather finish higher up, but the difference from 3rd to 4th isn't as emotionally painful as "Champions" to "Not Champions".

I was honestly more gutted in 2017, 2013 and 2011 when we lost Grand Slam deciders on the final day (and in one instance, the Championship as well) than I was in 2007 when we lost to Wales in what was essentially a dead rubber game, or in 2010 when we lost to France and failed to prevent their Grand Slam. In both those instances we finished 3rd and played our last game away though.

It might mean more for the England players to lose compared to the Irish ones. Ireland lose and they still get medals, England lose and some of them might not get to pull on a white shirt again.

But from a fan perspective, the damage has been done for England this tournament. It'd be great to beat Ireland, take some pride back and keep the Twickenham record in tact, but from my experience failing to do that will not compare to the hollow feeling last year of missing out on the Grand Slam.