6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

First topic message reminder :

I’ve always thought that England are a very good team and their fans are lovely and the most popular.

Feel free to add your own thoughts as we approach next weekend’s match as we travel over to visit them and celebrate with them.  And I’m sure that they’ll be as welcoming and fun-filled as they always are whenever we play them.  

As we all know, it’s only a game and sure it doesn’t matter who wins.....


Lovely England Team

Watson, May, Joseph, Te'o, Daly, Farrell, Wigglesworth, Simmonds, Haskell, Robshaw, Kruis, Itoje, Sinckler, Hartley, Mako

George, MArler, Cole, Launchbury, Armand, Care, Ford, Brown

Super Controlling Unbelievable Mauling Monster Yeti Irish Team

Kearney, Earls, Ringrose, Aki, Stockdale, Sexton Murray, Stander, Leavy, O'Mahony, Ryan, Henderson, Furlong, Best, Healy.

Reps: Cronin, McGrath, Porter, Toner, Murphy, Marmion, Carbery, Larmour.

I assume drink has been ingested in big quantities tonight?

ya think?

GeordieFalcon wrote:What a nob head..let's bring politics in to a Frak rugby forum...

Utter bell end

Thanks for being clear in that post gf. For your last post I thought you had written it phonetically. All I can say is wayhay man or whatever

[quote="SecretFly"]I assume drink has been ingested in big quantities tonight


Especialy by the "IRISH" eh secret fly. Well deserved too.

Just so happy for Dolores O'Riordan up there in heaven.

That and a documentary I watched on Irish castles yesterday... so evocative it nearly brought me to tears. What that has to do with rugby... nothing... but I'm so happy for the Irish folk.

majesticimperialman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I assume drink has been ingested in big quantities tonight


Especialy by the "IRISH" eh secret fly. Well deserved too.

Well yes, maybe, majestic..................... but that's all good for the economy - of both Nations.

But the lingo here sometimes tonight seems a little out of character for some people. I have to keep reminding myself that so many folks enjoy their rugby with beer. I'm square in that department and don't so I have to keep reminding myself

If you hang around a bit Fly I might drink enough to say something positive about joe and RK.

Well just for tonight you can have a drink on me. In fact have 3 your team deserve it.

Here’s the serious bit.

Was surprised that the changes made for England didn’t make a bigger difference.

My favourite player today was young James Ryan. From the kickoff he knocked Itoje back 5 or 10 metres. After that he just played like he was having a ball. No mad aggression or anything just tackle get up tackle again carry ball repeat ad nauseum. And all with a smile on his face. He will be better than POC.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:If you hang around a bit Fly I might drink enough to say something positive about joe and RK.

Oh I've already done that biz Geen sport. Joe should be our new Patron Saint - I'm sure Patrick has had enough parades in his name over the centuries.

And Rob.................. well he should retire forthwith. He was deplorable today

Shout out to Andy Farrell, the only Englishman winning a GS this weekend. And you might say he was key to Ireland winning theirs...

Ireland are the new England. Boring but effective. Well done Ireland, clap clap.

Congratulations to Ireland. The scoreline was closer but this game felt a bit like the 2015 World Cup pool loss to Australia. Both opposition teams got out to healthy leads early in the game, and I just never felt confident that England had either the discipline, or nous, to get back on terms.

Sharp contrast the the first test against the Wallabies in 2016, when we were under the cosh, but fought back by taking our chances. There were key moments yesterday when we had to score. Not just to close the gap, but to show Ireland that we could get through them. When we didn't, their self-belief sky rocketed while ours took a tumble.

For me, Ryan was MOTM for Ireland, he was everywhere from the get go and I do have to agree with Geen Sport voor watjes, he will be better than POC.

That said, the most impressive player for Ireland yesterday in my mind was Carbery. In his short time on the field in possibly the biggest match he will ever play in and in replacing arguably the best 10 in world rugby right now, he never looked remotely out of his depth. I had some doubts about him but not anymore, that was a mature and experienced display from him.

Henderson, not much being said about his performance, was again a powerhouse in the loose and defence.

Aki is a worry for me, as good as he is and probably only in the team due to injuries, he does not seem to have the right composure. Twice in the 6N I feel he could and should have received YC's that could have had an impact on the game.

Carberry was really good after Sexton took himself off but Ryan what a performance and should have been MoM just as Aki should have been carded (red?). He could have cost Ireland a well deserved GS. Ringrose just gets better and better too.

Very well done Ireland. Worthy winners

yappysnap wrote:Shout out to Andy Farrell, the only Englishman winning a GS this weekend. And you might say he was key to Ireland winning theirs...

Hmm, I'd say his part on a technical level was our most glaring weakness through the contest (and not just identified by us but by outside coach observers) - defence, especially on the fringes. Ireland let in 11 tries. That's not pretty.

Now, I've said earlier that I'd never blame Andy Farrell for our fringe defence weaknesses from the outset as it has been there as a glaring weak point for longer than he's been in the job, but it's still an area that needs more solid solutions now, which was evident even in yesterday's game.  These easy tries against us in the closing stages are much too dangerous a weakness as we head into a very serious period in advance of the WC.  Schmidt, Farrell and other coaches will have to come up with tweaks to our over all game plan to try to patch up the gapping holes.

ebop wrote:Ireland are the new England. Boring but effective. Well done Ireland, clap clap.

The only problem there ebop, is that you won't goad us into trying to be the All Blacks. England and Wales (and now Scotland I suppose) might fall into that trap and be goaded into trying to play it much more fluid and open and fast and sexy.

Nope, Ireland will still chug along in third gear, driving the tractor up the middle so carefully. Plod, plod, plod, another score, plod, plod, plod.....

eirebilly wrote:For me, Ryan was MOTM for Ireland, he was everywhere from the get go and I do have to agree with Geen Sport voor watjes, he will be better than POC.

That said, the most impressive player for Ireland yesterday in my mind was Carbery. In his short time on the field in possibly the biggest match he will ever play in and in replacing arguably the best 10 in world rugby right now, he never looked remotely out of his depth. I had some doubts about him but not anymore, that was a mature and experienced display from him.

Henderson, not much being said about his performance, was again a powerhouse in the loose and defence.

Aki is a worry for me, as good as he is and probably only in the team due to injuries, he does not seem to have the right composure. Twice in the 6N I feel he could and should have received YC's that could have had an impact on the game.

Funny you should say that. I'd drop your Ryan down from MOTM and maybe give it to Henderson. I thought they were all to a man great in their roles - but I think Henderson was needed for that bullheaded bastardness of his game. I laughed as he was chatting to the ref whilst trying to keep, was it Itoje? - up. What a conversation in the heat of such concentration and heated battle.

Congratulations on the Grand Slam Ireland. You've now won the same number of Grand Slams as Gavin Henson! 

But seriously though, well done. A great achievement and an enjoyable team to watch this year  

Good man, Oracle. Appreciated.

I'm just totting up all the little 'records' this Slam has given us. It's been a bizarre but very pleasing season. Not just the Slam happened but a crowd of little tasty bits and pieces happened too - Stockdale's brilliant strike rate being one. Nobody could have predicted that and when you consider how an English last minute blueline decision helped him get the record, you just do shake your head sometimes at how bizarre this journey has been for Ireland.

When I wrote my comment it was before a ball was kicked in the 6Ns,papers were full of injuries
to squad.Both the Vunipolas,Itoje,Hartley,Farrell,3 first choice Locks,Tuilagi was g oing to be a
secret weapon.
The June and AI`s will tell the tale,signs are the usual suspects are getting it together,NZ,Aus,
France,SA.
EJ has indicated he will move on post 2019RWC,its up to him to make sure there is squad for
his successor to build on.
Is the 4N`s and 6N`s being contested in 2019,NZ are in some disarray with players defecting
and injuries now.BUT a lot of names are now coming back into fitness so there squad will
be very interesting.

What was encouraging was Englands second half response,toward the end they were creating,as opposed
scoring from.Intercepts,charge downs,quick taps,or speculative kicks,had it gone another 5mins England
looked they could turn it around.
Ref was very relaxed about the Scrum.perhaps because of the weather ,another would surely have
carded the front rows for boring in.

emack2 wrote:What was encouraging was Englands second half response,toward the end they were creating,as opposed
scoring from.Intercepts,charge downs,quick taps,or speculative kicks,had it gone another 5mins England
looked they could turn it around.
Ref was very relaxed about the Scrum.perhaps because of the weather ,another would surely have
carded the front rows for boring in.

Had Ireland another 10 minutes of 15 men, we might'a got a try bonus point.

England exposed us at the right time (well into the second half) and in the right place (fringes) that had proved effective not only for them but for Italy and Wales too.

Ireland were at that point half way emotionally between celebrating the dream and having to keep as alert as they could for the dangers coming at them in waves.  The really good thing to see was that they were handling two distinct emotions and still holding themselves together.  In other times, Ireland might have imploded under such emotions and game-in-play pressure but it's not just England that were hitting them with these late surges and yet they withstood - Wales, Scotland, England; we got hit with a good battering of late play surges.

A brilliant training ground and series of games for our younger players to learn loads from.  

I still think Scotland gave us our most torrid test in defence.  Their purple period sometime in the middle to end of the first half was exhausting even to look at as Irish players had to keep jumping up so quickly to try to get to the next almost instant point of attack.
And France were obviously the toughest team for us in attack.  We just couldn't find a way through all game.

eirebilly wrote:

stub wrote:Well deserved Ireland - have a good one.

(We’ll be back)

Good man yerself and I am sure yiz will be, will raised a tonight in your direction

Cheers Billy, hope you enjoyed a great night!

Always enjoy reading your balanced and thoughtful posts.

SecretFly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Shout out to Andy Farrell, the only Englishman winning a GS this weekend. And you might say he was key to Ireland winning theirs...

Hmm, I'd say his part on a technical level was our most glaring weakness through the contest (and not just identified by us but by outside coach observers) - defence, especially on the fringes.  Ireland let in 11 tries.  That's not pretty.

Now, I've said earlier that I'd never blame Andy Farrell for our fringe defence weaknesses from the outset as it has been there as a glaring weak point for longer than he's been in the job, but it's still an area that needs more solid solutions now, which was evident even in yesterday's game.  These easy tries against us in the closing stages are much too dangerous a weakness as we head into a very serious period in advance of the WC.  Schmidt, Farrell and other coaches will have to come up with tweaks to our over all game plan to try to patch up the gapping holes.

I thought Ireland won this GS on the back of defense Fly? Yes they scored plenty of try's, and scored some crackers at that. But from the highlights I've seen it looks like they opted to give the opposition the ball a lot and soak up their attack as well. Some amazing defense at times on the try line in this tournament. Add in that Scotland, England and Wales all have very good attacks too.

Missed the game due to a rearranged fixture at my club. Probably won't go back and give it a watch.

Congratulations to Ireland on their Grand Slam.

The quicker England draw a line under this tournament and move on the better. Lessons to be learnt, sure, but we have to look forward now.

Watching a bit of the game again, I'm still staggered how Wigglesworth was on the pitch so long.

He single handedly destroyed our attack. Every ruck he stands a meter back, looks around, waits for some more forwards, finally deigns to reach for the ball, and then wafts a floating pass somewhere a couple of feet over the receiver's head. Absolutely dire. Would have been better off with Bergamasco.

When was the last time he played for England?

Collapse2005 wrote:When was the last time he played for England?

Before this tournament it was the 2015 World Cup I think. Eddie has only used Youngs and Care (and Maunder last summer when Youngs was unavailable).

Congrats Ireland, I hope many of you are still nursing the effects of Saturday night this morning

defrosting from the weekend in twickenham. work isnt much fun today

wasnt very confident going into the game and after the start it was pretty much over. not watched any highlights but what was the consensus on the aki tackle? in the ground i didn't think it was too bad (neither was liam williams either for me) but under the current laws it had to be a yellow at least.

england just have far too many players out of form. other than billy and youngs in cant see how we can really improve the team with changes, thought simmonds was totally ominous. cant remember him doing anything. itoje was extremely poor, too upright carrying and was being knocked back most of the time. watson experiment at fullback has been a failure, other than first game against italy (where he was on the wing) he has been very poor and full of mistakes. brown should have started

only really daly had a good game, although i thought robshaw and haskell did ok as well

I think with Watson he has to have a run of games at full back. 2 game isn't enough for him to show enough.

Congratulations Ireland a well deserved Grand Slam.

LondonTiger wrote:Congratulations Ireland a well deserved Grand Slam.

Thanks Tiger. They don't come often but they do taste sweet.....for a few hours.

What surprised me though was that the mood came down again after really quickly. Maybe it was just the dull, dull, dull, DULL coverage over here in Ireland (new network is showing the games this year with dull greyish business colours, dull greyish suits and ties, dull greyish humourless punditry and.............

...well already my mind has shifted to Summer tour (three massive tests against an Australia that will be intent on climbing up that rankings chart again) Hoping players and coaches stay focused now and build on this newer Irish version of more attacking, in-your-face, relentless rugby. There is always something else to be concerned about, new trials to overcome.

yappysnap wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Shout out to Andy Farrell, the only Englishman winning a GS this weekend. And you might say he was key to Ireland winning theirs...

Hmm, I'd say his part on a technical level was our most glaring weakness through the contest (and not just identified by us but by outside coach observers) - defence, especially on the fringes.  Ireland let in 11 tries.  That's not pretty.

Now, I've said earlier that I'd never blame Andy Farrell for our fringe defence weaknesses from the outset as it has been there as a glaring weak point for longer than he's been in the job, but it's still an area that needs more solid solutions now, which was evident even in yesterday's game.  These easy tries against us in the closing stages are much too dangerous a weakness as we head into a very serious period in advance of the WC.  Schmidt, Farrell and other coaches will have to come up with tweaks to our over all game plan to try to patch up the gapping holes.

I thought Ireland won this GS on the back of defense Fly? Yes they scored plenty of try's, and scored some crackers at that. But from the highlights I've seen it looks like they opted to give the opposition the ball a lot and soak up their attack as well. Some amazing defense at times on the try line in this tournament. Add in that Scotland, England and Wales all have very good attacks too.

We had +65% possession in every match except the England match. I would say we did the opposite of soak up attack.

We usually (have) soaked up pressure with a passive enough defence style - sturdy but passive in that sense of soaking up pressure by letting teams attack us as we sit at home rigidly tackling our asses off or kicking the ball away when in possession to let them come at us again.

This Six Nations has been the most consistently impressive display of Ireland's more attacking sensibility for some years.  I have little to be critical of - the players, all of them, played out of their skins through the whole contest - but that one area that kept hurting us late in games was the one thing that annoyed - and I know I'm not the only one, every fan, journalist, TV or radio show talked about it.  I don't think it's been worked on yet as we were busy trying to win a Slam.  But it will need studious attention now by the coaches between now and the Summer.

Top try scorers of all times by players playing for first tier nations after 9 games

Rokocoko 15
Savea 12
Stockdale 11
Habana 10
Williams 10

Not bad company to be in

compelling and rich wrote:defrosting from the weekend in twickenham. work isnt much fun today

wasnt very confident going into the game and after the start it was pretty much over. not watched any highlights but what was the consensus on the aki tackle? in the ground i didn't think it was too bad (neither was liam williams either for me) but under the current laws it had to be a yellow at least.

england just have far too many players out of form. other than billy and youngs in cant see how we can really improve the team with changes, thought simmonds was totally ominous. cant remember him doing anything. itoje was extremely poor, too upright carrying and was being knocked back most of the time. watson experiment at fullback has been a failure, other than first game against italy (where he was on the wing) he has been very poor and full of mistakes. brown should have started

only really daly had a good game, although i thought robshaw and haskell did ok as well  

It was a head clash rather than a shoulder drive to the head. Would that really be a yellow? Aki wrapped his arms more or less too. It was clumsly though.

One stat I've read is that Ireland's points per visit to 22 has been at All Black levels this season, while England had the worst conversion rate of the tournament.

Ireland are also killing games before they start. Ireland scored before England's first visit to the 22 and England had only had one visit by the time Ireland were 14-0 up.

Maybe these fast starts are contributing to Ireland conceding later on as they tire, or maybe they just take the foot off because the games are done.

England are evidently struggling to create quick ball when in the opposition 22, so spending lots of time in opposition 22 without scoring points.

robbo277 wrote:England are evidently struggling to create quick ball when in the opposition 22, so spending lots of time in opposition 22 without scoring points.

The way in which we set up the maul from lineouts does not help. (Assuming the poor throws on attacking lineouts are already known about). We had, I think, 8 penalties that we kicked to the corner and got nothing from any of the lineouts of which just one was a poor throw/call (straight after POM was binned)

Under Schmidt Ireland have in total scored more tries than any other team in the 6N which makes it quite odd that he has also been consistently criticised for Irelands attack.

Is that true? Thought england would have scored more.

Actually it might be exact same as England got late May try.

Collapse2005 wrote:Under Schmidt Ireland have in total scored more tries than any other team in the 6N which makes it quite odd that he has also been consistently criticised for Irelands attack.

Look I joke about deception in Schmidt's armoury.  But when you look at his progress through his time as International coach, he really has been floating under the radar, getting his results but nobody exactly singing long hymns of praise to his methodology (including ourselves here in Ireland)

And yet he's developed his players, created his templates, absorbed his fringe young players, PLAYED his fringe young players - something exceptional from Ireland considering how long we usually make them wait before being let near the big boys senior team; and he created almost a perfect (warning: nothing is perfect and may self destruct at any moment in the future) amalgam of serious old troopers and a wild bunch of confident young rookies.

The future is exciting.  Like I say and fully admit to, it might implode under pressure later down the line, but that doesn't make the prospects of that future any less exciting.  The truly exciting bit is the behind the scenes influence of Schmidt - he talks to players abroad, he talks to players that don't expect to get a call, he guides them long term, gives them pointers and advice, keeps them believing that if they improve this or that, he'll be watching and taking note.  
He's created a combined belief finally within the Irish player psyche that they don't have to wait through generations for players like BOD to come and bestow blessings onto us.  He simply lets them know that concentrated hard work will uncover the best parts of their own game and that such ability will be plenty in a team where nobody seems to need the adulation of personal prowess........

.....................except Stockdale!  Drop that showy bollix Joe!!!!!  He's a virus in the machine!!!!!!!!

Collapse2005 wrote:Under Schmidt Ireland have in total scored more tries than any other team in the 6N which makes it quite odd that he has also been consistently criticised for Irelands attack.

Unless I've messed up my maths (possible)...

Ireland 2014 - 2018: 16, 8, 15, 14, 20 - total 73
England 2014 - 2018: 14, 18, 13, 16, 14 - total 75

Ireland have the most since the World Cup, but in the Schmidt tenure they were hurt by only scoring 8 in 2015 (they made up for that crushing disappointment with the consolation of the Championship).

It might be tries not including Italy? Not going to run the full numbers, but Ireland only scored 2 against Italy in 2015, so if you consider England or Ireland would normally manage expect 4, that could be the difference.

You're right robbo.

75 England
73 Ireland
62 Wales
46 Scotland
41 France
41 France

Though of course I may have messed up my maths too

I think that is the tenth Grand Slam in nineteen seasons of 6N - will soon be passing the number of slams in tbe previous hundred years. What is the reason ??

For me, SH refs have made some bizaree decisions over the years since they were introduced in the early nineties but that cant be the whole reason.

Bundee Aki was a very lucky boy - if you don't raise your arms on contact with a stationary player your head will probably make contact first. How an inadvertant headbutt is deemed less of a sanction than a shoulder to the chin defies logic.

SecretFly wrote:You're right robbo.

75 England
73 Ireland
62 Wales
46 Scotland
41 France
41 France

Though of course I may have messed up my maths too

So France win by scoring 82

There you go...maths perfect, Italy exposed as a secret France B side.

Oh well... my focus is beginning to weaken sure enough.....

First the praise, then the bites.

Gats praises then bites and now Guscott bites:

"Ireland, arguably, do not have any world class players in their Grand Slam-winning squad."

Jesus Christ... it's tough going.  A few on that Irish squad have beaten every top team on the planet, they've beaten England twice in two years, they won all their games in the Six Nations this year, they've won three Championship now in five years, some are multiple European Cup (HEC) Champions with their Province, but they're still not the equals of who?  English players, Scottish players, Welsh players, Australian players, South African players?

It really hurts some people to have to admit that being best/or 'world class' isn't always about squirting around the field at speed like headless chickens on PEDs.

Murray not world class?  Sexton not world class?  POM not world class? Stander not world class? Henderson not world class?  Ringrose not world class?
Who the hell are they being judged against?  Hogg, Itoje, Farrell, Ford, Hartley, North, Halfpenny, etc, etc?
What the hell have those players won and who have they beaten to drop our players into also-ran bargain buckets?

World Class Players indeed.
"You could argue there are better scrum-halves and fly-halves than Conor Murray and Johnny Sexton who would get into a world XV."

They don't need to get into some fantasy world XV chosen by some set of expert British rugby journalists I presume?  
They're already in some of the best 'club' sides in all of Europe.  They'd get into a side chosen by one of the very best International coaches in World Rugby - they're already in it.  And they're already slap bang in the 2nd ranked side in the world.  They don't require an invitation to a fantasy XV, drawn up by a panel of journalistic excellence with Jeremy Guscott onboard.