England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

The thing Is Barney...selection is an issue for me (aside from tactics)

Hooker...we do have options...but who has been trialled. Hartley, then when he was finally OUT of form...he starts George. Dunn at Bath is a work horse tackling machine at hooker yet not a sniff.

Sh - consistently selecting 2 SH's ...why not an additional one so he is familiar with the set up.

Back row...
Injuries have been bad I accept...however forcing a lock in at 6 when you have players like Mark Wilson, Armand, Ewers, Kvesic etc available....is not ideal.

It has worked in the past, but I think Scotland exposed the problems...and the rest took note.

The thing is looking in from the outside there were calls to try Itoje or lawes again at 6 with a few saying the new breakdown rules suited an additional lock. There's also the point that injuries seemed.to be short term so do you bring in a lower quality flanker for a perceived one off game or just slot a lock in? Hindsight shows that the injuries weren't solved quickly but should the next short term injury see someone parachuted in who is not consider in the class of some guys who are due back around the corner?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll hold my hands up and say his passing bothered and probably still will bother me. His absence has highlighted what he brings ie a good core set of skills but a lot of organisation to the pack.

I think he's the player who we missed most.

Spot on Barnie. It's about time the players start to want it. Eddie has to stick to his word and pick on form and in the right positions.

To pick purely on form yoda would leave the team in constant flux and frankly weaken it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The thing is looking in from the outside there were calls to try Itoje or lawes again at 6 with a few saying the new breakdown rules suited an additional lock. There's also the point that injuries seemed.to be short term so do you bring in a lower quality flanker for a perceived one off game or just slot a lock in? Hindsight shows that the injuries weren't solved quickly but should the next short term injury see someone parachuted in who is not consider in the class of some guys who are due back around the corner?

We'll it has to be looked at accordingly....is a top premier level flanker worse than a top international lock playing at flanker? I'm not sure he is....

Yes many did call for the lock trial to continue but when that was brutally exposed by Scotland why was it allowed to continue through the rest of the tournament?

Didn't against Ireland. That's the one game we never looked involved in either!

I do want a flanker playing there though. Probably none of the above for me. It's just a matter of some.luck when we get underhill curry available to properly compete for a place. Then you have Shields Clifford. And the guys like willis et al. It'll take to next 6 nations to see one way or another.

I didn't mean chop and change all the time bit when Eddie took the job he said he would pick on form not reputation and not pick people out of position. Looked how that turned out. Although I will say the injuries didn't help him and the fact that access is limited outside of the squad announcement window etc. He's needs a lucky run of injury free Rugby to really get a strong squad. He missed an opportunity to use this six nations as a experiment for world cup squad but then we would have gone spare if he said we probably won't win it because I'm using as training for world cup places, can you imagine the fall out from out. The Celts would wet themselves with righteous indignation.

Yoda wrote:...when Eddie took the job he said he would pick on form not reputation and not pick people out of position....

Throughout his coaching career, Jones has frequently said one thing and done another.

Having said that, I don't remember either of those comments by him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do want a flanker playing there though. Probably none of the above for me. It's just a matter of some.luck when we get underhill curry available to properly compete for a place. Then you have Shields Clifford.  And the guys like willis et al. It'll take to next 6 nations to see one way or another.

I think you've hit the nail there to be honest 7.5

But not just in the back row...all over. We need a bit of luck to get all the young pretenders fit and in form for the run in to the world cup now. One or two may get injured through that period...but if its only one or two and short term we can handle that.

The likes of Underhill , The Currys, Hughes (fully fit and firing) , Billy V, Marler, Mako V, George, all need to be at the top of their game.

I wonder how much Gary Graham getting injured before the Italy game affected things...as he may well have been going to get a run out at 7. A good performance by him might have pushed him for selection in the later games. He' a real physical , aggressive "Scottish style" back rower ....

[quote="robbo277"]

GeordieFalcon wrote:That's the thing LT, theres not a stream of outstanding talent "ready".

Francis - Meh - I think he’s a good 12, bad 10.
Joseph - Blows hot and cold- needs a rest but also needs to stay involved.
Marchant - Whats happening with him- he’s been injured most of the season but is back playing for Quins and was our player of the month in the month he’s been back. He’ll start for England soon.
Sam James - Has he pushed on?- no idea
Slade - Should be given a chance now- yes
T'eo - Meh / Average- a blunt tool that we can use but agree he’s not top notch.
Lozowski - Is he a 12? a 10 of a 15 - and good enough? - he’s a 10 but I think he covers 12 ok
Daly - Is he a 13, a wing or a 15- he’s international class in all 4”3 so we should play him where we most need him. Right now, that’s not the wing.
Manu - Injured-
Malinder - 10, 12, 13, 15 - What is he? - definitely not a 15 in any universe, and statistically Saints do MUCH better when they start him but not at 15! He’s a 12 for me
Trinder - Seems in top form and injury free...- worth trialling
Sam Hill - Has he pushed on..?- no idea, hard at Exeter as they have good equal quality centre options.
Tom Stephenson - Injury plagued, possibly dropping to the championship with Irish- yup
Johnny Williams - Progress has stalled. - yup

Have I missed any?

Sam James?

Hes in the list CJ

Gary Graham is another I had forgotten about. Injury really has arrested our chance of developing this season. I quite like lozowski at 12 seems to have a eye for the gap. Will require guile rather than direct hard running to get across gain line.

I’d quite like to see Slade-Marchant as a duo in South Africa. But would need some carrying power in the back 3- one of Roko, Brown or Nowell needed in my opinion

What does everyone think of novels at 15 if he can be given game time there?

Right decision time: resting mako, Maro, Farrell, Billy. Lawes, Hughes injured I think eddy will go with
1. Marler
2. George
3. Sinkler
4. Launchbury
5. Kruise
6.Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Simmonds
9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12. Teo
13. Slade
14. Daly
15. Brown

What I would like to see
1. Marler
2. George
3. Sinkler
4. Launchbury
5. Ewels (I want to see more of him)
6. Armand
7. Underhill
8. Simmonds
9. Robson
10. Ford
11. May
12. Lozowski
13. Slade
14. Daly
15. Brown (no one else close to international fullback yet)
16. Genge
17. LCD
18. Harry Williams
19. Robshaw
20. Kruise (most experienced)
21. Care
22. Teo (incase midfield to light weight)
23. Nowell

I'm assuming jj still out of form and tuilagi injured as usual.

I think Shields is almost guaranteed to go. Very surprised if he doesn't. I think we will see some young flankers as well that'll join him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think Shields is almost guaranteed to go. Very surprised if he doesn't.  I think we will see some young flankers as well that'll join him.

Shields is contracted to the Hurricanes till the end of the Super Rugby season. (Mind wasn't Francis still contracted to the Blues when called up last year?)

has Shields ever been to England?

He was I belie LT which is why I think he'll go. Don't know gf.

Just think it makes it a bit of a mockery if you have players going to represent a country yet never having stepped foot in the place before!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just think it makes it a bit of a mockery if you have players going to represent a country yet never having stepped foot in the place before!

Both of his parents are English so I imagine there's a fair chance he's been here.

Ah well in that case yes he probably has.

Rules are rules. Same when te'o came. You would. No rule would from.world rugby would ever rule out either of them so unless england themselves brought in a rule to say someone needs to have spent a year here on top of their qualification. Not going to happen.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just think it makes it a bit of a mockery if you have players going to represent a country yet never having stepped foot in the place before!

Well, on a slightly dark note, during WWII, America designated a lot of people who had never set foot in Japan as enemy aliens, and imprisoned them. The criteria was being at least 1/16 Japanese.

For reference, Iain Duncan Smith is 1/8 Japanese, through his maternal great grandmother.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just think it makes it a bit of a mockery if you have players going to represent a country yet never having stepped foot in the place before!

Well, on a slightly dark note, during WWII, America designated a lot of people who had never set foot in Japan as enemy aliens, and imprisoned them. The criteria was being at least 1/16 Japanese.

For reference, Iain Duncan Smith is 1/8 Japanese, through his maternal great grandmother.

We should do the same with the Welsh.

So firstly....forgetting who will go....

Who should be rested...

Is Shields that good?
Sorry, coming from a position of ignorance as hardly seen any super rugby for the last few years.

For resting I would think of - Mako, Itoje, George, Farrell, Robshaw, Brown, would have said Watson/Lawes but injured. Cole looks like he could do with a rest too.

The above guys were either heavily involved with the Lions or were full on with the England tour (Brown and Robshaw).

Kruis, didn't play much on the Lions and was out of form (returning from injury) - suspect gametime is needed more than rest.
Billy Vaunipola - just needs to get on the pitch and have an injury free run - had plenty of rest.
George Ford - Is a confidence player, needs gametime to get mojo back.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just think it makes it a bit of a mockery if you have players going to represent a country yet never having stepped foot in the place before!

Well, on a slightly dark note, during WWII, America designated a lot of people who had never set foot in Japan as enemy aliens, and imprisoned them. The criteria was being at least 1/16 Japanese.

For reference, Iain Duncan Smith is 1/8 Japanese, through his maternal great grandmother.

Can someone please find a reason to extradite him to Japan

propdavid_london wrote:Is Shields that good?
Sorry, coming from a position of ignorance as hardly seen any super rugby for the last few years.

Very good, on the fringes of the AB's. He's a bit like Haskell with better hands and a few more brain cells. I think he's missed out on NZ selection as he was liable to giving away a few stupid penalties, but this seems to have gone from his game somewhat.

propdavid_london wrote:Is Shields that good?
Sorry, coming from a position of ignorance as hardly seen any super rugby for the last few years.

He had a good game last weekend. Jones has a penchant for players with Super Rugby or southern hemisphere experience (except Cipriani and Don Armand). Te'o, Haskell, Francis, Harrison, Hartley come to mind. He had an eye on Mitch Lees at one stage too.

He ticks a lot of boxes at a time Jones is likely asking questions about his back row. He is captaning the Hurricanes, which suggests he can play a leadership role. He's tall enough to be a lineout option, and can cover six & eight.

I would prefer to see him playing a few games for Wasps before he is parachuted into the EPS.
Works for some but not others - Peirs Francis looked pretty good on the Argentina tour but not amazing for Saints!
Teo adapted quickly when he came in from a different set up.

Unless Hansen picks him for AB`s as a back up with Read injured,Shields is very good only his
decision to go north.Was seen as an impairment it really is unseemly to rush another SR player
straight into an England team.
The list of 27 players not considered,is it all due to injuries,or is it club commitments?England
etc. may get away a Saxons class team v Argentina.
BUT all the SUPER sides indicate that the home SR sides will be more formidable this year.that
they`ll be no gimmee`s.
With RWC 2019 only 18 months away this year needs to be about getting selections ready
for next year.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think Shields is almost guaranteed to go. Very surprised if he doesn't.  I think we will see some young flankers as well that'll join him.

Shields is contracted to the Hurricanes till the end of the Super Rugby season. (Mind wasn't Francis still contracted to the Blues when called up last year?)

Precedent has been set with Te'o in 2016 and Underhill and Francis in 2017.

I think he could do what he did with Te'o and bring him to have a look but not cap him until the Autumn. I'm not sure if he ever intended playing Te'o in Australia, and did what he could not to use him.

Picks Manu and Te'o in the original squad.
Manu drops out injured so Burrell comes in.
Starts Burrell outside Farrell in T1.
Changes his mind and hooks Burrell after 30 minutes. Burrell is never seen again.
In tests 2 and 3 without Manu or Burrell instead switches to a 6/2 bench

If he wants Robshaw at 6, Vunipola at 8 and rookies at 7 and bench (e.g. Underhill and Simmonds), he could call up Shields to train without ever expecting to use him.

propdavid_london wrote:I would prefer to see him playing a few games for Wasps before he is parachuted into the EPS.  
Works for some but not others - Peirs Francis looked pretty good on the Argentina tour but not amazing for Saints!
Teo adapted quickly when he came in from a different set up.

As above he could tour but not play and if Eddie expects to use him in the Autumn he might benefit from the exposure. Then you've got a player who's ready to make an immediate impact.

Te'o and Underhill were both contracted to their English clubs when they toured, though admittedly it was before they had played.

Francis however was still contracted to the Blues so it is a precedent - though it should be noted he did not, afaik, return to the Blues after the Argentina tour.

LondonTiger wrote:Te'o and Underhill were both contracted to their English clubs when they toured, though admittedly it was before they had played.

Francis however was still contracted to the Blues so it is a precedent - though it should be noted he did not, afaik, return to the Blues after the Argentina tour.

When is the cut-off for contracts though? I know in Football it's 1 July (even though they have largely the same season), because of the transfer window. Are contracts to a specific date? There must be a crossover date, but I have no idea what it is.

Similarly with Francis, the Blues only had 1 more game after the Argentina tour and were rock bottom of their conference, so could have let him go with their blessing. It doesn't mean his contract was necessarily over though unless they agreed an early termination.

I think the common sense ruling would be to allow it. If Eddie Jones called him up, PRL could complain if they felt the RFU were in breach of the EPS agreement, but probably wouldn't want to sour relations over what is essentially a non-issue. The substance of the agreement is to keep England players in England and punish those who leave. Why would they want to punish a player who has decided to come and play in and for England?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So firstly....forgetting who will go....

Who should be rested...

Start with the Lions players:

Need a break
George - rest
Cole - rest
Mako Vunipola - rest
Itoje - rest, although he missed some time with an injury he's still young and probably could do with a break mentally as well as physically
Farrell - rest
Lawes - injured
Watson - injured

Definitely take
Daly - take, missed some time with injury this season and doesn't play in the most attritional position
Nowell - take, missed some time with injury this season and doesn't play in the most attritional position

Players I'd probably take, spent some time out with injuries and also have points to prove. Potentially assess individually:
Marler - probably take, had some time off this season and didn't play all the Six Nations
Sinckler - probably take, had some spells off and didn't play all the Six Naitons
Kruis - probably take
Joseph - probably take
Te'o - probably take
Haskell - wouldn't rest him, but not sure if his form gets him on the plane with other younger options playing as well as he is

I'd take players like Hughes, Vunipola, Youngs and Tuilagi who have been on long-term injury lists if they can prove their fitness by the end of the season, otherwise I'd leave them.

Non-Lions players who have played a lot for England (Hartley, Launchbury, Robshaw, Ford and Brown come to mind) I'd assess their fatigue individually, but I'd be looking to take all 5 considering the other players injured or rested - especially as we're likely to lose a couple of others to injury along the way. If we took those out, we look very bereft of leaders and experience.

I think you need to wait and see who is in the Aviva premiership final .  I appreciate there are a couple of weeks between this and the first test, but the finals tend to be attritional and coming at the end of a long season, will push a lot of players heavily into their reserves.

I hope the long term injured players like Hughes, Vunipola, Youngs and Tuilagi aren't considered for what is a fairly pointless tour, jammed in at the end of a long season for a lot of players.  I know none of those 4 went on the Lions tour, but I just think some rest and a full pre season will do them more good than going off to SA to earn a few quid for the RFU.

I am slightly surprised to see Sam Simmonds in a few peoples team as starting no 8.  I think the 6 Nations matches he played in other than the Italy games showed him to be underpowered as an 8, particularly in an England team that does not have a big ball carrier at 6 or 7.  I like him as a player and think he has a lot to offer, but his skillset is more that of 7 than a 6, never mind an international 8.  I appreciate not considering him at 8 leaves England with a few problems with Vunipola and Hughes potentially not available.  But Jack Clifford who himself was considered too small to be an international 8 when he came onto the scene has both a height and weight advantage.  Armand can play at 8.  As a short term solution Haskell has lots of test experience at 8.

Add to that youngsters that I would like to go on tour and also have points to prove -
Isekwe
Both Currys
Still need to see more from Underhill
James Chisholm
Simmonds (No.8)
Genge
LCD


Not so young but would like to go -
Armand
Robson
Slade
Solomona

As said above - to me England lacked that physical presence in the backs that an inform Teo/Tuilagi would bring.
Farrell is edgy but if we are resting him then we need to include a few more physical backs in the squad - especially if we are going down the lighter-weight back row route! (by light-weight I mean carrying ability into traffic - not actual weight).

nlpnlp wrote:I think you need to wait and see who is in the Aviva premiership final .  I appreciate there are a couple of weeks between this and the first test, but the finals tend to be attritional and coming at the end of a long season, will push a lot of players heavily into their reserves.

I hope the long term injured players like Hughes, Vunipola, Youngs and Tuilagi aren't considered for what is a fairly pointless tour, jammed in at the end of a long season for a lot of players.  I know none of those 4 went on the Lions tour, but I just think some rest and a full pre season will do them more good than going off to SA to earn a few quid for the RFU.

I am slightly surprised to see Sam Simmonds in a few peoples team as starting no 8.  I think the 6 Nations matches he played in other than the Italy games showed him to be underpowered as an 8, particularly in an England team that does not have a big ball carrier at 6 or 7.  I like him as a player and think he has a lot to offer, but his skillset is more that of 7 than a 6, never mind an international 8.  I appreciate not considering him at 8 leaves England with a few problems with Vunipola and Hughes potentially not available.  But Jack Clifford who himself was considered too small to be an international 8 when he came onto the scene has both a height and weight advantage.  Armand can play at 8.  As a short term solution Haskell has lots of test experience at 8.

I think they're up to full speed then I don't see why we wouldn't want to take them. If say it was a Saracens vs Leicester final and Vunipola, Youngs and Tuilagi were all deemed fit to start that game, for example, I'd like to see them go. They've had a long time out, worked hard to get back up to fitness, they'll probably be as hungry to play as anyone after spells out.

If they're still scratching around for fitness and not quite at 100%, I'd rest them for sure. But if they're fully recovered I'd send them out to play after all the rehab they've been through.

If they're scratching around for fitness I'd still take them .. can you imagine a fired up Billy being given 20 mins off the bench for his first England appearance in 18 months

As long as the injury itself has healed, a little bit short of full match fitness won't hurt

(Assuming the starting number 8 doesn't get injured in the 3rd min anyway)

BamBam wrote:If they're scratching around for fitness I'd still take them .. can you imagine a fired up Billy being given 20 mins off the bench for his first England appearance in 18 months

As long as the injury itself has healed, a little bit short of full match fitness won't hurt

(Assuming the starting number 8 doesn't get injured in the 3rd min anyway)

I guess what I'm saying is if they can take a full part in all aspects of training, including contact, the day after the plane lands, I'd take them.

I don't think it's going to be worthwhile picking someone who is going to do physio or even a reduced schedule the first week they land and try to build their fitness back up to play in the latter tests.

Eddy has 11 games to get ready for Japan. In these close days he needs to play as close to his first choice 23 as possible with the intro of the cover that will be part of the world cup. Haskell could still be on the plane if only he could pass the ball every so often. Brad shields has English parents who settled in nz when young and had their family over there, they later returned to eng and have settled down. Shields said in an interview it was part of the reason why he refused his all black wider squad place for a chance of playing for England. I also suspect the honey Eddie poured into his ear with promises of riches also had a helping hand.He's decent and does pass the ball which is a bonus for an English forward good at the breakdown is good at disturbing in the wider channels and rarely misses a tackle. I agree with Geordie I want him to earn in the Prem first no shirt should be easily won.

Eddie has 11 games to..

Find a balanced midfield
Find a balanced back row
Find a dynamic front row
Decide on his back three.

And a good physio team!

And more importantly decide on his favoured tactics! As the ones in the 6n blantantly didn't work

GeordieFalcon wrote:Eddie has 11 games to..

Find a balanced midfield
Find a balanced back row
Find a dynamic front row
Decide on his back three.

And a good physio team!

And more importantly decide on his favoured tactics! As the ones in the 6n blantantly didn't work

Yes to the first two almost there with the last two if not pretty much settled. I watched the Ireland game again, this time without the beer inside and I noticed we weren't as bad as the papers would have us believe. The Irish were worthy winners and their defense was the best I've ever seen it. We were just off the chart with stupid little errors in handling and ill discipline. Some carry's were actually quite good and hask was smashing rucks. The ref bottled a few decisions like bungee aki 'tackle' and their first try which would have made a massive difference. Plus our maul actually went forward for a change and when pom brought the maul down could have been a penalty try. When Ford came on we actually started fizzing passes together and looked more threatening. So I don't think we need a soul searching hand wringing 11 games but a tweek to personel who can play in different ways. Armand came on and immediately passed one out when lines up and surprise we started to get some where. So small changes could make a huge difference.

Most of the team is alright:

Front Row
1.Marler & Vunipola
2.Hartley & George
3.Cole & Synkler?

Lock
4&5.Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis

Backrow is problem
6.Robshaw &???????Curry/Armand/Shields?
7.????????Hask/Simmonds/Underhill?
8.Vunipola & Hughes

Scrumhalf
9.Youngs & Care

Flyhalf
10.Ford&Farrell + Smith?Slade?

Centre's
12&13. Farrell, Te'o, Daly, Joseph + Manu?

Back three
11&14&15.May, Watson, Nowell, Brown, Daly + Roko???

There's a very good team there, no need for massive changes injury permitting.

Marler,Hartley,Cole,Launchbury,Itoje,Robshaw,Underhill,Vunipola,Youngs,Ford,May,Farrell,Daly,Nowell,Brown.