England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

So for the tour....Something like?

Rested:
Jamie George
Dan Cole
Mako Vunipola
Itoje
Farrell
Robshaw
Lawes - Injured
Watson - injured

Not considered due to long term injuries
Manu Tuilagi
Billy V
Ben Youngs

Not Considered due to form and better challengers
Haskell

So 35 Man Squad - Something like??

Front Row
1.Marler & Hepburn or Obano
2.Hartley, LCD, Dunn (Hartley back up)
3.Synkler, Williams

Locks
Launchbury, Kruis, Isiekwe, Ewells

Backrow
6. Don Armand, Gary Graham, Ben Curry
7. Tom Curry, Sam Simmonds, Underhill
8.Hughes (We have NO other option but to take him) Zach Mercer

Scrumhalf
9. Care, Robson, Mickey Young

Flyhalf
10.Ford, Smith, (Slade to cover 10)

Centre's - Who to pick...?
12 T'eo, Lozowski, Slade (Covers 10, 12,13)
13 Joseph, Marchant, (Consider Sam James, Sam Hill, Joe Simmonds ??)

Back three
Wings: May, Nowell, Daly, (Nowell & Daly to have time at FB)
FB: Brown, (Take Malins for exposure and brief gametime)

Genge. Drop graham. Think Shields and willis there instead. Clifford as main 8 with mercer from bench. I'd expect mallinder to get some game time prob at 15.

He will take velacott instead of Mickey young looks good other than that Hughes has to rest Clifford, Mercer and Armand can play eight.

Ok so following suggestions - Would tyou really take Clifford after so long out and barely any gametime?

Rested:
Jamie George
Dan Cole
Mako Vunipola
Itoje
Farrell
Robshaw
Hughes
Lawes - Injured
Watson - injured

Not considered due to long term injuries
Manu Tuilagi
Billy V
Ben Youngs

Not Considered due to form and better challengers
Haskell

So Squad - Something like??

Front Row
1.Marler & Genge
2.LCD, Dunn, Hartley (Hartley goes but as back up)
3.Synkler, Williams

Locks
Launchbury, Kruis, Isiekwe, Ewells

Backrow
6. Don Armand, Ben Curry, (Jack Willis or Shields)
7. Tom Curry, Sam Simmonds, Underhill
8. Clifford, Zach Mercer

Scrumhalf
9. Care, Robson, (Mickey Young or Velacott)

Flyhalf
10.Ford, Smith, (Slade to cover 10)

Centre's - Who to pick...?
12 T'eo, Lozowski, Slade (Covers 10, 12,13)
13 Joseph, Marchant, (Consider Sam James, Sam Hill, Joe Simmonds ??)

Back three
Wings: May, Nowell, Daly, (Nowell & Daly to have time at FB)
FB: Brown, (Take Malins or Mallinder for exposure and brief gametime)

Clifford is just back now I think so a few weeks to go. I'd take him if he's still fit by then....!

Will Hughes even be fit to tour? I had thought the injury was such that he was possibly ruled out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43403423

Ah I hadn't realised he was actually back 7.5

So he has a few months to get fit...

Are T'eo and Ewells worth their place ,thought T'eo had a poor 6N. It might be worth looking at a newer talent for what is a back place in the tour.

Name the T'eo replacement Rosbif?

Most people recognise that T'eo is not the long term answer, im not the biggest fan at all...however who is pulling up trees at 12 that demands the 12 shirt and has more directness and power? Only Manu (whos a 13)...and he's never fit. I'd love to see Slade nail one of the centre spots...
And bar Robshaw most of the England side had a poor 6n...

Ewells....well he's young, and another mobile young lock. Who would you suggest. A monster like Will Spencer?
A beast like Dom Barrow who gives away loads of penalties?

GeordieFalcon wrote:And bar Robshaw most of the England side had a poor 6n...

Jonny May went pretty well. Almost convinced certain doubters of his ability

rosbif wrote:Are T'eo and Ewells  worth their place ,thought T'eo had a poor 6N. It might be worth looking at a newer talent for what is a back place in the tour.

Teo for me wasn't fit. Handled his own rehab and came into the 6N squad without playing any club rugby for a number of months.
Same was for Hughes, and a few others were either undercooked or knackered from Lions duty.

Teo was excellent as a finisher in the previous 6N and excellent when used properly for the Lions.

I am not the biggest fan, but I wouldn't be writing him off anytime soon. I rather suspect that he will still be there for Japan.

True LT, but I quite like May anyway. He's a strike runner that scores tries when given a chance.

Shields' team grabbed a last minute win at home in the Super Rugby.

Interestingly, the captain needed help from the touchline to make a key decision, so maybe his leadership ability is still getting honed. The Hurricanes were eight or nine points behind with two minutes left, when they got a penalty in front. Shields seemed to want to go to the corner, to get a try but was told to take the kick.

Shields was probably thinking "Get a try, and then we only need a penalty shot to win". However, when you need to score twice, and you have an easy chance to get one of them, then it's usually worth taking the shot. Not only did they have the rest of the match to go for a try (which they got), the three points gave them a losing bonus point in the event they fell short.

Didn't Robshaw make that same decision in a big game and got slated for it...

I'd be happy with that Geordie.

Bit behind in the bath match while watching a recording but blooming eck genge looks class. Admittedly he's against a bunch of reserve tight head s but his scrum technique is so good allied to his raw power. Some player he could be.

Genger put a quality shift 7.5

He's got to start in SA (or at least bench with Marler starting)

Actually..Obano did some good stuff aswell...but I do wonder if his lack of serious size might be an issue at international level.

I'd take Obano over Hepburn or Waller on today's performance. His tackling and carrying are a weapon. I'd be interested to see him scrummaging in a stronger front row. Being short is historically not a negative for looseheads especially at scrum time.

Yes...Carlos your right about Obano's tackling..its rock solid...and actually offensive as he knocks people back.

I think his scrummaging is good, but as you say it would be interesting to see him
A) in a stronger pack behind him...
B) How he copes at international level.

Agreed GF, he was inline for the bench before injury so hopefully Obano travels. I hope Collier gets a chance as well, I rate him higher than Williams.

1.Marler, Genge, Obano
2.Hartley, LCD, Taylor
3.Sinckler, Collier, Williams
4.Launchbury, Isiekwe
5.Kruis, Ewels
6.Robshaw, Clifford
7.T Curry, Simmonds, B Curry
8.Vunipola, Mercer

The back row looks messy with debates to be had on Simmonds and Cliffords best positions, but it still covers the basis. That would be a good pack to take to SA in my opinion.

1.Genge 2.Hartley 3.Sinckler 4.Launchbury 5.Kruis 6.Robshaw 7.T Curry 8.Vunipola

16.Taylor 17.Marler 18.Collier 19.Ewels 20.Simmonds

Whilst resting Mako, George, Cole, Lawes and Itoje that would be a strong pack. Especially with Underhill out too.

I concur about obano. Loosehead is suddenly looming a whole lot stronger than tight. I think sinckler could go on to challenging Furlong for the mantle of best on the world but it looks a little light apart from him. Not a huge williams fan and cole can't go on forever.

Didn't see the sale wasps game. Did curry have a good game? What about Willis? How long is Underhill out for?

Ben Curry started for Sale and put in a good shift. I thought Willis was excellent though, was a real menace on the deck. Missed a bit of the 2nd half when Tom Curry came on though.

Just seen the harlequins result can't be good with about six current England squad players being thrashed at home against the bottom of the league. I did notice that Clifford scored but that will probably seal Kingston's fate.

Harlequins have been an up and down team for years - sometimes very good sometimes very bad. I don't see it as too big a problem that Quins had 5 England players in their team and lost. Irish had quite a few internationals in their team. Have to agree on the Kingston point though - Quins have been drifting for a couple of years, but it is a case of who is out their who is better. I don't see Bath, Northampton, etc pulling up trees. I suppose someone will take Stuart Lancaster as a head coach sooner or later.

Generally the England Quins play well for clubs and country, it's the rest of the team who are like. But this weekend Brown was terrible by all accounts. I wonder if it's the start of the end for him.

It's worth pointing out with all the talk of Genge and Obano that when Marler burst onto the scene he was a carrying, tackling machine who was seen as a weaker scrummager.

Is it something about the demands of internationals or the coaching that has changed his area of relative strength? Is it just an age thing?

It's well established that a prop will peak around 30, but that's definitely in scrummaging terms. Although at 27 Marler shouldn't have faded that much, which leads me to believe it is a coaching thing.

So if we called up Genge or Obano, would we let them do what got them the call up? Or would we be looking to round the edges and possibly sacrifice a bit of their round the park for scrummaging ability? In which case, would we be better sticking with Marler for now?

Maybe the demands on an international prop have changed in the last 5 years? The ball is in play more now and games aren't being won or lost solely on the scrum. So is a change of direction due, or even overdue?

With Mako, Genge, Obano, George, Cowan-Dickie, Dunn and Sinckler we have the players to go down this route if we wanted to (Could do with more depth on the tighthead side) and keep "impact" players on for 80 minutes of the game. But if we're going to curb them, then it seems like a bit of wasted effort.

I watched the exeter glaws game today. That Exeter prop with the big hair is a talent, as is trinder for glaws.
But at the breakdown there was rarely if ever, any counter rucking. Twice Exeter were 10 from the glaws line got tackled one Exeter fella went in not one glawd fella even bothered. There were three of them just standing there waiting for the ball to be played.my god why?
No other Exeter players were even looking like they were going to join the ruck. The 3 Gloucester lads could have smashed straight through turnover ball ,threat gone. Instead did nothing Exeter recycled under no pressure and scored.
And this carried on pretty much the whole game.
I get that they may be told not to, but can't they see when it's on?
Didn't 6n teach teams anything

robbo277 wrote:It's worth pointing out with all the talk of Genge and Obano that when Marler burst onto the scene he was a carrying, tackling machine who was seen as a weaker scrummager.

Is it something about the demands of internationals or the coaching that has changed his area of relative strength? Is it just an age thing?

It's well established that a prop will peak around 30, but that's definitely in scrummaging terms. Although at 27 Marler shouldn't have faded that much, which leads me to believe it is a coaching thing.

So if we called up Genge or Obano, would we let them do what got them the call up? Or would we be looking to round the edges and possibly sacrifice a bit of their round the park for scrummaging ability? In which case, would we be better sticking with Marler for now?

Maybe the demands on an international prop have changed in the last 5 years? The ball is in play more now and games aren't being won or lost solely on the scrum. So is a change of direction due, or even overdue?

With Mako, Genge, Obano, George, Cowan-Dickie, Dunn and Sinckler we have the players to go down this route if we wanted to (Could do with more depth on the tighthead side) and keep "impact" players on for 80 minutes of the game. But if we're going to curb them, then it seems like a bit of wasted effort.

That is a very good point. With Marler the change was very sudden and it's the same at club as well as country, I assume it was partly down to him focusing more on the nuts and bolts of the position which have all come on massively since, he's now a brilliant close in tackler and very physical around the ruck. The other thing is he was massive in the age grades, I think he looked more dynamic then he was because at that age he was far bigger then a lot of his opponents.

We still have dynamic props, like Synkler, and he's still dynamic at every level he's played at but he a far more explosive player which seems in keeping with the position.

carpet baboon wrote:I watched the exeter glaws game today. That Exeter prop with the big hair is a talent, as is trinder for glaws.
But at the breakdown there was rarely if ever, any counter rucking. Twice Exeter were 10 from the glaws line got tackled one Exeter fella went in not one glawd fella even bothered. There were three of them just standing there waiting for the ball to be played.my god why?
No other Exeter players were even looking like they were going to join the ruck. The 3 Gloucester lads could have smashed straight through turnover ball ,threat gone. Instead did nothing Exeter recycled under no pressure and scored.
And this carried on pretty much the whole game.
I get that they may be told not to, but can't they see when it's on?
Didn't 6n teach teams anything

It's something ive noticed and said on a different forum. In my opinion it's because of the way the break down is reffed in the Prem. Refs are very card happy if you counter but then either 'play the nine' or come off your feet even if you have successfully won the ball back. It's the reason the Irish hate Wayne Barnes who officiates to the letter of the law. Prem refs also insist on tackler release first which is again the letter of the law.

Even if your theory about Marler is correct I wouldn't consider either Genge or Obano to be weak scrummagers so they wouldn't have to sacrifice anything. For Genge I would go as far as saying his scrummaging is just as much a strength as his carrying.

However, as much as I rate Marler, Genge, Hepburn, etc. I still think the best hope for England is that Mako's ability in the scrum can be improved because his carrying, handling and tackling are a class above all the English props IMO.

Yoda wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I watched the exeter glaws game today. That Exeter prop with the big hair is a talent, as is trinder for glaws.
But at the breakdown there was rarely if ever, any counter rucking. Twice Exeter were 10 from the glaws line got tackled one Exeter fella went in not one glawd fella even bothered. There were three of them just standing there waiting for the ball to be played.my god why?
No other Exeter players were even looking like they were going to join the ruck. The 3 Gloucester lads could have smashed straight through turnover ball ,threat gone. Instead did nothing Exeter recycled under no pressure and scored.
And this carried on pretty much the whole game.
I get that they may be told not to, but can't they see when it's on?
Didn't 6n teach teams anything

It's something ive noticed and said on a different forum. In my opinion it's because of the way the break down is reffed in the Prem. Refs are very card happy if you counter but then either 'play the nine' or come off your feet even if you have successfully won the ball back. It's the reason the Irish hate Wayne Barnes who officiates to the letter of the law. Prem refs also insist on tackler release first which is again the letter of the law.

But the 6ns showed how effective a good counter ruck can be against teams not committing men to the break down.
And I will agree Barnes can be very strict at the breakdown, but we(the Irish) had him this six nations and it was fine (mainly I feel because we actually listened to him this time).
If you counter ruck correctly, with some pace it generates good turnover, esspecialy against teams not committing, and from what I saw today no one was, it was a bit rugby league at times.
In the long run it's going to be detrimental to the national team if week in week out they have no exposure to competitive rucks.
I'm pretty sure the Saffers will be counter rucking like an angry heard of water buffalo

You've also got to consider that England have just come off an extremely good set of results. Less tactics and more execution I feel. That said due to the fall off age and injuries to 2 of the guys in our back row you're likely to see alterations there.

Think Hepburn and Skinner put their hand up for the SA tour with Eddie watching

Maybe Marler chose to focus on the "nuts and bolts" aspects of his position and sacrificed the explosive carrying.

He's my first choice LH for England when fit and on form. He's great at the rucks and close in tackling.

Mako on the other hand chose to focus away from the nuts and bolts.

Hopefully Genge and Obano can bring both those different game styles together.

If Hartley does miss the tour because of concussion, I suspect Borthwick will remember how he missed the 2010 tour through injury, and never got selected again.

Dunn, LCD, (Taylor back from injury) a clear lack of any kind of leadership on the field from Hartley in games in the 6n...his time may well be numbered.

carpet baboon wrote:I watched the exeter glaws game today. That Exeter prop with the big hair is a talent, as is trinder for glaws.
But at the breakdown there was rarely if ever, any counter rucking. Twice Exeter were 10 from the glaws line got tackled one Exeter fella went in not one glawd fella even bothered. There were three of them just standing there waiting for the ball to be played.my god why?
No other Exeter players were even looking like they were going to join the ruck. The 3 Gloucester lads could have smashed straight through turnover ball ,threat gone. Instead did nothing Exeter recycled under no pressure and scored.
And this carried on pretty much the whole game.
I get that they may be told not to, but can't they see when it's on?
Didn't 6n teach teams anything

That's just the way the AP is played right now....English back rows have got used to not having to defend rucks because they don't need to do it at club level.

Amazed no club coaches have learned from the 6n and gone out to target that area yet.

Carpet I know it doesn't make sense to us English fans either. The tactics will change I'm sure but what we have seen on the Prem is a penchant for massive guys in the back row using brute force instead of guile. This champions cup will make England teams sit up and rethink (loss of money does that when you are operating at a loss!). I would like to see the stats for pro 14 vs Prem yellows for breakdown offences as I do think they are reffed differently. I've seen some absolute shocking decisions from refs and touch judges favouring the attacking team. Ireland were good with Barnes because they are now more astute and think clearly due to a kiwis mind set. If you listen to Barnes he loves it and just needs managing, as soon as you think you know better he cards people. Ireland also didn't attack England ruck as much as I thought they would but man marked mako, Haskell and other ball carriers with double hits stopping our attack. Very clever as they probably knew we would work harder at the breakdown and commit more men leaving ball carriers a bit more exposed.

Good point on the balance between supporting the carrier and being there for the clear out. Perhaps a bit of the new combos settling.along with the stated overall balance of the pack?

Looking at Englands underwhelming performance this year in the 6N by my reckoning they have 8 players from clubs in the bottom half of the Avia playing as first choice. Marler ,Hartley , Robshaw,Underhill ,Care ,Teo, Joseph and Brown + Ewels. Does this suggest Eddie isn't choosing the in form players

The beat players don't all play for a small selection of clubs. But nor would you want to pick purely on form imo as some players aren't good enough despite form.

Doesn't help if half the team are used to losing each week.

You ll never really solve that without abolishing wage caps or the rfu contractually forcing players to only play for a select few though. That said I think there are clubs such as harlequins as the obvious example where it's their coaches rather than players dragging them down. Inevitably back up the top end next year should they get the right appointments in.

rosbif wrote:Doesn't help if half the team are used to losing each week.

Wales put together some strong Six Nations campaign when their regions weren't doing anything in Europe, and not regularly challenging in the league. Meanwhile, Australia beat the All Blacks when none of their sides could beat New Zealand teams in Super Rugby.

I'll grant you it's not a good place to be, and unlikely to produce sustained excellence, but you can still cultivate an environment at international level to get the best out of your best players.

I don't buy it that the players cant play a different style. They're good players.
They can adapt. The prem is a certain style...but it doesn't mean they cant play differently for England.

To me the tactics employed during this 6n were wrong. Simple as that.

Quins were playing well when England did most of their squad selection though. It’s gone downhill since Christmas, especially last couple of months.

We're not too far off like we said tactics need tweeking with a bit more balance in personel and we will be hard to beat again. We have the talent I think just need to harness it and pray injuries don't get in the way of a bit of consistent selection.

No matter what's said, perhaps after all of the winning some players weren't quite as focussed for the 6N's as they should have been?

As said we're only a few selections and improved tactics at the ruck away from being very tough to beat.