England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

Better backrow and better 9 are the two most important selections.

Having watched the Jaguars v Crusaders on Saturday,when they ran looked very dangerous,but the conditions
made handling difficult.The Scrum was good but not dominant,certainly they weren't going to score any push
over tries.
They used the Scrum to milk penalties,just to take another scrum etc.Crusaders made something like 3
times as many tackles.BUT NZ sides fitness levels demand the ability to play a hard paced game for 80 plus
minutes.
They had numerous opportunities to kick penalties,and a 19-12 scpre line puts pressure on mpre than
endless scrums.
Breakdowns unless you have a jackal like POCOCK,orTODD who are quick enough to make a tackle,regain
their feet,and legally pick up the ball.Better to stand off and only flood the area if your certain of winning it.

What is needed is unpredictability in defense and attack this includes going ice or fire (stand off rucks or counter). If you are predictable in defense it's easy to counter act, think Scotland against England, they did their homework. It's not too much to ask international players to use their eyes and brains and have a look at who's defending the ruck, how many phases the attacking side have had and whether it's going to interrupt their play. England need to practise this and fast.

There has been a gradual decline in the success of English teams in European rugby -

In 2015-2016 season - 4 sides in the 1/4s. 3 in the semis, 1 winner
In 2016-17 - 2 sides in the 1/4s, 1 in the semis, 1 winner.
In 2017-18 - 1 side in the 1/4s....

This has been similar to England in international rugby.

Our club teams aren't at the races.


The Irish rise has also been linked with the strength of the Irish teams in the ERCC this season.


It's up to the English clubs as a whole to up their games.

emack2 wrote:
Breakdowns unless you have a jackal like POCOCK,orTODD who are quick enough to make a tackle,regain
their feet,and legally pick up the ball.Better to stand off and only flood the area if your certain of winning it.

If you're playing England circa 2018, you make sure you're getting into the tackle area every single breakdown because you know the England forwards aren't getting there quickly enough and you've got a good chance of a turnover.

I wish I could find that Launchbury clip...

That sums it all up for me. Play like that, you'll get beat simple as...

The increase in quality and quantity of top.class players hasn't quote been matched by the coaches. Not sure how you go about improving that?

No 7&1/2 wrote:The increase in quality and quantity of top.class players hasn't quote been matched by the coaches. Not sure how you go about improving that?

You could select a lower quality of players to match coaching standards?

Very true. Maybe borthwick can find his boots.

beshocked wrote:There has been a gradual decline in the success of English teams in European rugby -

In 2015-2016 season - 4 sides in the 1/4s. 3 in the semis, 1 winner
In 2016-17 - 2 sides in the 1/4s, 1 in the semis, 1 winner.
In 2017-18 - 1 side in the 1/4s....

This has been similar to England in international rugby.

Our club teams aren't at the races.


The Irish rise has also been linked with the strength of the Irish teams in the ERCC this season.


It's up to the English clubs as a whole to up their games.

Time for the PRL and BT sports to hold European rugby to ransom again?

Ransom how? Time a consideration of change following new sa clubs being excluded absolutely.

I think they need to earn their stripes first, no?

How? Demand a complete overhaul of European competitions so English teams can win again.

beshocked wrote:There has been a gradual decline in the success of English teams in European rugby -

In 2015-2016 season - 4 sides in the 1/4s. 3 in the semis, 1 winner
In 2016-17 - 2 sides in the 1/4s, 1 in the semis, 1 winner.
In 2017-18 - 1 side in the 1/4s....

This has been similar to England in international rugby.

Our club teams aren't at the races.


The Irish rise has also been linked with the strength of the Irish teams in the ERCC this season.


It's up to the English clubs as a whole to up their games.

It certainly is Beshocked, and I’m sure they will.

I think that it needs to be agreed that should the sa clubs qualify through their league system they should be allowed. It shouldn't be a closed shop to them. I suspect that the English clubs will.bounce back. Just as I predicted the pro 12 clubs to.bounce back. Stupid to think.otherwise.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think that it needs to be agreed that should the sa clubs qualify through their league system they should be allowed. It shouldn't be a closed shop to them. I suspect that the English clubs will.bounce back. Just as I predicted the pro 12 clubs to.bounce back. Stupid to think.otherwise.

Yeah I agree with all of that. It not unreasonable to allow the SA teams qualify but I think they should be in the tournament a couple of years first.

I'd agree they would.need to be confirmed as a long standing arrangement of participating in the conference system thing.how long.dud they sign up for initially?

That seems a reasonable approach regarding the SA teams 7.5.

Also, I completely agree on the English teams bouncing back too.

As you say, it wasn’t long ago that there was real worry about the Pro 12 teams performances in Europe.

beshocked wrote:There has been a gradual decline in the success of English teams in European rugby -

In 2015-2016 season - 4 sides in the 1/4s. 3 in the semis, 1 winner
In 2016-17 - 2 sides in the 1/4s, 1 in the semis, 1 winner.
In 2017-18 - 1 side in the 1/4s....

This has been similar to England in international rugby.

Our club teams aren't at the races.


The Irish rise has also been linked with the strength of the Irish teams in the ERCC this season.


It's up to the English clubs as a whole to up their games.

2014-15 - 4 sides in the 1/4s. 1 in the semis. 2nd in the Six Nations and then knocked out our World Cup.

I think it's not so much a club failure causes international failure or vica versa, it's that they're both correlated because of dependency on an underlying independent variable - namely the form and the condition of the players.

Clubs and country should be having serious discussions about player welfare and how to maximise their resources to both of their benefit. It's not club vs country, they're on the same side here.

robbo277 wrote:

beshocked wrote:There has been a gradual decline in the success of English teams in European rugby -

In 2015-2016 season - 4 sides in the 1/4s. 3 in the semis, 1 winner
In 2016-17 - 2 sides in the 1/4s, 1 in the semis, 1 winner.
In 2017-18 - 1 side in the 1/4s....

This has been similar to England in international rugby.

Our club teams aren't at the races.


The Irish rise has also been linked with the strength of the Irish teams in the ERCC this season.


It's up to the English clubs as a whole to up their games.

2014-15 - 4 sides in the 1/4s. 1 in the semis. 2nd in the Six Nations and then knocked out our World Cup.

I think it's not so much a club failure causes international failure or vica versa, it's that they're both correlated because of dependency on an underlying independent variable - namely the form and the condition of the players.

Clubs and country should be having serious discussions about player welfare and how to maximise their resources to both of their benefit. It's not club vs country, they're on the same side here.

Well if you look closer no team had a home quarter final. 3 scraping into the 1/4s as best runners up and all 4 had pretty low points.

Only 1 English team in the semi final.

It was not a particularly good year.

This is quite an interesting article.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2018/04/09/inside-linethe-young-flankers-queuing-england-selection-ahead/

Unable to view the article. Who was name checked other than Willis.

Talking about Willis, sonfar he has only started for Wasps in the AP in the 6 shirt. Against us he came off the bench and packed down on the blindside. So is he a genuine (but inexperienced) option at 7 or is he another in the line of 6.5s?

How would others feel about Ross Harrison being looked at?

After discussing Obano, who I'm a fan of, early in the thread it occurred to me that Harrison falls into much the same bracket as Alex Waller. His performances at set-piece and around the park have been consistently good for a long time now. Harrison more strongly than Waller, whereas Waller is excellent at the ruck. Both are areas that need addressing from the 6 Nations.

I'd be very happy with Obano being looked at alongside Marler and Genge in the summer but if Waller or Harrison toured ahead of Obano I'd be satisfied with either selection.

LondonTiger wrote:Unable to view the article. Who was name checked other than Willis.

Talking about Willis, sonfar he has only started for Wasps in the AP in the 6 shirt. Against us he came off the bench and packed down on the blindside. So is he a genuine (but inexperienced) option at 7 or is he another in the line of 6.5s?

You have to register to view unfortunately, but some of their articles are decent. It mentions Willis turning the ball over three times in a very similar way to pounce. He mentioned Ben and tom curry who use different tackle techniques to basically be a pain in the arse to attacking teams and then finally Evans from Leicester who apparently is a great link player who picks good running lines and is always in play as he likes getting on his feet.

.

I guess Jones hand will be bound by who is fit.

I just hope if everyone is fit...he doesn't go with Haskell etc now and ditches the flippin 3 lock system. SA is the best chance now to really see what type of balanced back row we can put out...and he must get the tactics right now.
Players have to be alert and play to what they see in front of them...because we certainly didn't see much intelligence in the 6n.

First target is to reduce the number of pens. Second be more unpredictable in attack and defense. Thirdly advance tactics e.g. making opposition jacklers be the tackler therefore taking them out of the game and by reversing their role and knackering them out just by consistently targeting them and running at them.

From what I've heard people say we need to be more streetwise at the breakdown.

Better tactics, and better execution there and the pens will drop. Likewise cleaner faster ball off the ruck will give us a better attack.

All comes back to the back 5 in the pack. Sort out 4-8 and give them the correct jobs and I think we'll be much improved.

Spot on Yappy.

Agreed

Seen it mentioned that EJ has been talking to Steve Diamond about Jonno Ross who has an English grandmother.

Is Jonno Ross any good? I know nothing about him.

Oh dear lord...you've got to be kidding me!!! I despair.

However speaking of Sale...Friday night Falcons v Sale, ill be closely watching:

Ben Curry
Tom Curry
Sam James
Ross Harrison

See how they perform...

It really will be like a flippin united nations of accents...

From Makos welsh Valleys bloody accent to Kiwi's, Aussies, Fijian, Zimbabwean and all sorts.

I think every national team has players who are not "born and bread" in the country representing them. If they are legally qualified then then can play. However, I don't think picking a few second rate south sea island players will solve England's breakdown problems. I think the issue runs deeper than that and have done for the last 10+ years. The England club game is not producing out and out 7's, and the attrition rate with back row players is extreme.

Who IS producing out and out 7's Nlplp?

yappysnap wrote:Is Jonno Ross any good? I know nothing about him.

Physical, abrasive 6/8 who gets over the gain line. He was excellent against Wasps last week, certainly out playing Strauss.

Just read he used to be on Quins and Sarries books.

If he keeps playing like he is, there's no reason he shouldn't be in the mix. His match up against Graham today should be interesting.

He's South African...that's why he shouldn't be in the mix Sgt.

Although he'll work well with Zimbabwean Armand (and Zimbabwean Ewers if he gets called up) and Aussie T'eo, and Kiwi Billy and Mako from the welsh valleys, and Hughes that great English player from Fiji and his Samoan pal Solomona, and then add Kiwi Shields in to the mix as well...i'm sure we can pull a few more accents in...maybe a yank or a Canadian..??

The richest Union in the world, the biggest playing numbers and we have to use foreign players who cant even get in their own national country!

Its a farce!!

What's the point of having an Empire if you're not going to use it? (In jest wums need not respond). But being a larger country artist has a large economic pull and multicultural outlook it's no surprise. Think about it logically. People move to UK for work, education etc some even go back and forth and could play for say south Africa but have roots in England. You don't have to far back to see that many Aussies, kiwis, sa Zimbabwe etc have English connections or emigrated. Similarly the USA has masses of differently diverse ethic groups who represent them as they are mass importer of skills.

Nz have the economic pull with the Polynesian islands. Many all blacks have heritage with Fiji, Tonga, Samoa etc because their families wanted a better education for their children. Irish, English, Scotish and Wales have been breeding and living closely together for millennia making a very foggy grey area of nationalism. Case in point, I'm a quarter Irish and my wife is distant Scottish as well as English. I could represent Ireland but I've never been (much to my shame as I have family over there). Throw in the mix the movement throughout the Commonwealth and you have a heady mix of genes and culture.

Ultimately it's not where you come from that counts but where you end up, a country is an ideal of values and community all pulling together for the benefit of their citizens irrespective of race, creed or religion. Genes or perception of purity is absolute codswollop.

Those the rules GF....I can't see the problem.

Yoda,

I have no problem with people moving for work, and welcome it. My problem is rugby players coming over, playing here a for a few years then representing England.

I know its not a straight forward issue, lines are crossed etc with English parents ala Shields, but players like Ross, Nathan Huges Solomona etc should not be representing England because they've live here for 3 years!

And if players have played for Rugby league for another country ala Samoa and Solomona, and Henry Paul, Vainikolo etc previously then they DEFINATELY SHOULD NOT be playing for England.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Those the rules GF....I can't see the problem.

As you can probably tell I have a huge problem with it.

Where do you draw the line?

The point is at the moment there are agreed rules for how these things work and all these players fit those rules.

Because they are the rules doesn't mean they have to be strictly adhered to. we can elect to ignore them and play English...not rush to pick the next foreigner who becomes eligible.

A perfect example.

Jono Ross, a South African...v Zach Mercer an exciting young English lad.
it staggers me that Ross is even considered...

This is why we voted Brexit.........

GeordieFalcon wrote:...players like Ross, Nathan Huges Solomona etc should not be representing England because they've live here for 3 years!...

Like Waldrom, Ross has an English grandmother, so he is automatically qualified. (He hasn't been here long enough for residency qualfication.)

GeordieFalcon wrote:Because they are the rules doesn't mean they have to be strictly adhered to. we can elect to ignore them and play English...not rush to pick the next foreigner who becomes eligible.

A perfect example.

Jono Ross, a South African...v Zach Mercer an exciting young English lad.
it staggers me that Ross is even considered...

So you have one player who is 1/4 English vs one who is 1/2 English. The one who is 1/4 English learnt his trade in SA and the one who is 1/2 English mostly in Scotland.

Mercer is more qualified but it isn't that simple.

As for the individuals I'd have Mercer before Ross any day.

Born in England until he was 8, spent some time in Scotland but then played U18 , 20 etc rugby for England.

Yes I would FAR rather have that than a South African!

Appreciate your opinion but like others have said where do you draw the line? Mercer has a nz father who played league I think, could be massively wrong? Jono Ross did spend some tine in harlequins academy obviously has links with both sa and England. If the rules are there then abide by them and use them. That being said if Jobi Ross has played premiership rugby put the hard yards in and has nailed his colours to our country then so be it. In my opinion Brad shields may have the dynastic bragging rights as his parents are both born English and residing in England but hasn't contributed to our domestic league and played against his companion for the shirt. If Jono Ross has been deemed the best option currently at six then we have to accept eddies opinion and back him to the hilt. If the naturally born options get annoyed then they should get better and stop moaning. I also agree the residency issue should be resolved with passport and citizenship qualified then play for that country. All u20 team should be the qualifying team as this the first age group where they are all guaranteed to be adults and or established academy players or in education in host country.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Because they are the rules doesn't mean they have to be strictly adhered to. we can elect to ignore them and play English...not rush to pick the next foreigner who becomes eligible.

A perfect example.

Jono Ross, a South African...v Zach Mercer an exciting young English lad.
it staggers me that Ross is even considered...

Can we though? Legally? I'm not talking about whether Ross is good enough or whether World Rugby should change the qualifying criteria, but if qualified and if he says he wants to play for England, I don't think Eddie Jones or the RFU can turn him down for being too foreign. Because if the RFU come out and say they are enforcing stricter qualification criteria than World Rugby, do they fall of the Equalities Act?

To clarify: you cannot discriminate on race. Under the act;
(1)Race includes—
(a)colour;
(b)nationality;
(c)ethnic or national origins.

We can debate whether Ross is good enough, but if the RFU were to announce that they weren't going to pick players who they felt had got an easy qualification, then they would be opening themselves up to a lawsuit.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the qualification criteria are by-and-large fine, but I'd like to see all Under-20s as tying teams and also players to declare their rugby nationality upon signing their first professional contract. It would nip project players in the bud immediately without moving the goalposts on qualification.

Haven't france announced recently they are going to be using a tighter riles than wr?

Yoda wrote:...All u20 team should be the qualifying team as this the first age group where they are all guaranteed to be adults...

Not in Japan. For many administrative issues, nationality included, 20 is the age of majority.

This isn't the right thread to discuss all aspects but I suspect any decent qualification rules need to take into account whether players are professional. A lot of Under 20 teams are full of amateur players just looking for the best rugby experience to hand before they go and get a job.