England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

What do people think of Sam Simmonds international future?

With a hat-trick at the weekend he continues to show that he has something about him, but does his size mean that he may end up being viewed in a similar light to Alex Goode - ie extremely good club player but missing something fundamental that damages his international performances?

I think we need to be putting a few things in place this summer to be honest 7.5, so that they've got some game time together and are ready to go for the AI's.

Specifically the back row is a key one to start to fix in the summer

However

Front row...I think but I think Genge MUST get a run out at LH, maybe Obano off the bench (If Marler is given a break) and look at Sinkler as well.
Some explosiveness in the front row is required aside from old guard, Marler, Mako and Cole.

Centres.
Slade needs a run out.
I think we need some power in there as well...Farrell is a big aggressive guy, but he's not an explosive dynamic centre. T'eo was brought in for that but hasn't made that spot his own. Oh Manu why are you a sicknote !!!

Back 3...we need to decide will Brown go to the World Cup...or who is his replacement. Watson is not the answer in my opinion. But the question then...who is?

LondonTiger wrote:What do people think of Sam Simmonds international future?

With a hat-trick at the weekend he continues to show that he has something about him, but does his size mean that he may end up being viewed in a similar light to Alex Goode - ie extremely good club player but missing something fundamental that damages his international performances?

I think he's a top player, but as ive said previously its a shame he wasn't a 12. He'd be absolutely ideal!

I think hes a flanker at international level not an 8.

Jones biggest decision is going to be the make up of that back row. Simmonds offers serious explosive pace...and that's a huge thing at international level. But you need to balance that with power and graft. Though I think Simmonds tackle count is always very high aswell...so he ticks another box there.

Perfect for the bench.

Yeah...maybe 7.5

LondonTiger wrote:What do people think of Sam Simmonds international future?

With a hat-trick at the weekend he continues to show that he has something about him, but does his size mean that he may end up being viewed in a similar light to Alex Goode - ie extremely good club player but missing something fundamental that damages his international performances?

All he really seems to have is fantastic acceleration. This is great in the AP with people falling off tackles etc, but the space at Int is just not there. I can see him being one of these players that shines against the poorer nations and makes no impact against any team half decent.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:What do people think of Sam Simmonds international future?

With a hat-trick at the weekend he continues to show that he has something about him, but does his size mean that he may end up being viewed in a similar light to Alex Goode - ie extremely good club player but missing something fundamental that damages his international performances?

All he really seems to have is fantastic acceleration. This is great in the AP with people falling off tackles etc, but the space at Int is just not there. I can see him being one of these players that shines against the poorer nations and makes no impact against any team half decent.

I wouldn't entirely disagree. He won't stand out often although his acceleration off the mark is a bit special. But it is worth flagging up that he is also a real grafter and his tackle counts in the games he played in the 6N were off the scale.

So he's good enough, can play right across the back row and offers a nice contrast to the behemoths, but he would need to be used in a different way from the others also, because he has no way to make space where there is none. (This might not be an issue if we are playing Genge and Sinkler though)

The two big problems for him are then that
1) He's in a very competitive group of players
2) His point of difference may well be more sensitive to injuries

So your choice of back row pooly?

I agree geordie. That AI selection relies on chances this summer. Integration rather than dropping players in brings the best results. It's the reason o want to see Watson at 15 again. Give him a run and see. After 4 or 5 games I think we'll have a better idea.

Just added the Officials to the OP. In looking this up I noticed that SA play Wales in Washington DC the week before the 1st Test. In terms of preparation such a big flight back will not be ideal for them.

I also wonder what impact having the first two games at altitude will have?

I like Willis too and think he's definitely in the mix. I would be happy to leave Robshaw out as well, controversial I know but fresh blood and thinking needed.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So your choice of back row pooly?

Depends on who is fit....as we know, they tend to drop like flies.

6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Vunipola

Is probably our first choice. I'd like to see how Willis progresses for the 6 shirt, can he replace Robshaw? I think we can also potentially look at Rhodes at 6, I'm a big fan. For the 7 shirt, Underhill and then possibly Graham or maybe Kvesic (not seen much of him). At 8 it's Billy by a mile, then Hughes...not seeing any other real options out there, I don't think Mercer is ready.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:What do people think of Sam Simmonds international future?

With a hat-trick at the weekend he continues to show that he has something about him, but does his size mean that he may end up being viewed in a similar light to Alex Goode - ie extremely good club player but missing something fundamental that damages his international performances?

All he really seems to have is fantastic acceleration. This is great in the AP with people falling off tackles etc, but the space at Int is just not there. I can see him being one of these players that shines against the poorer nations and makes no impact against any team half decent.

Quite possibly right, but his Premiership performances and his limited runs at International level have earned him the chance to prove the above wrong.

I'd agree with 7.5, it we're starting with Marler, Hartley and Cole, we need Billy's power to punch holes. If we have Mako/Genge and Sinckler in the starting line-up then perhaps we can use Simmonds. If we have those players on the bench, then Simmonds best place would be on the bench, to come on around the same time.

Personally, I feel having him at flanker and Vunipola at 8 will give you two great carrying options, but you potentially lose out in breakdown ability. Are we going to be able to slow or steal opposition ball with those two in tandem? Maybe if we then employed a proper fetcher at 7 and took all carrying responsibility away, then we could get away with it.

When is Billy V back playing? Thought he was on the brink of a game in the Champions Cup and then never appeared.

We must remember that a number of players in the 6N weren't fit and shouldn't have played as much as they did.
Brown, Teo, Hughes, Nowell were all massively undercooked coming in off the back of injuries. (I am sure there were others)

A decent off season for a lot of these guys would do them the world of good and hopefully give them a chance to regain earlier form.

propdavid_london wrote:When is Billy V back playing?  Thought he was on the brink of a game in the Champions Cup and then never appeared.

We must remember that a number of players in the 6N weren't fit and shouldn't have played as much as they did.
Brown, Teo, Hughes, Nowell were all massively undercooked coming in off the back of injuries.  (I am sure there were others)

A decent off season for a lot of these guys would do them the world of good and hopefully give them a chance to regain earlier form.  

I heard that, but having reviewed the original assessment he was given 12 weeks in mid-January, which brings us to about now. He didn't feature last week, but must be nearly there. With two weeks before the next game, he could feature.

Would two sub appearances and possibly a starting role in the play-offs be enough to prove his fitness before tour? Having gone through all the effort to get himself fit, 3 games on top of a maximum of 4 for Sarries does not sound too taxing.

Well, when Billy was on the comeback trail the last time he looked awesome from his first game - until further injury.

If Billy is fit and passes all the tests then I am thinking that he must tour. If he doesn't play these games for Sarries then I think he shouldn't tour and get a full pre-season in with Sarries (along with a number of other Senior England players that need the re-hab and a decent pre-season).

My current feeling is to take the kidz on tour - Mercer, Obano, Genge, T.Curry, B.Curry, Isekwe, Ibitoye, Chisholm, Marcus Smith, Underhill (injury permiting).
Take the fringe guys - Dunn, Ewells, LCD, Slade, Solomona,

Are Billy and Manu the same person...

I think Eddie will pick this side

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Lanchbury
5 itoje
6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Billy V

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 Elliott
12 Farrell
13 T'eo
14 Watson
15 Brown

My thoughts (mainly because I am braindead after 6 hours virtually non-stop on the phone

Most Recent Senior Squad http://www.englandrugby.com/england/senior-england-men/squads/

Don Armand - Not sure there is a position for him as he is not really a 7 nor an 8. Deserves a chance to tour though.
Lewis Boyce - A long way down the list of options at LH
Mike Brown - Fighting against the fading of the light. Will tour mainly due to lack of options.
Danny Care - Found being a starter hard work, will rightly still tour
Dan Cole - Needs a rest, expect to see him travel though.
LCD - Should travel and put pressure on both Hartley and George, but injury frequency an issue.
Curry, T - Coming back from injury. In contention for a tour spot
Daly - Missed so much time with injury this season is not in need of further rest. Would love to see him at FB, but EJ will keep him on the wing.
Dunn - a real workhorse, but perhaps below international class. Deserves to go ahead of teh skipper, but may only tour if George is rested or Hartley injured.
Earle - Oft included by Jones in squads, but not shown any form to deserve summer selection
Ewels - Another Jones favourite. Likely to travel but not play.
Farrell - Perhaps needs a rest, but will probably travelk and possibly as Skipper
Ford - England looked more threatening when he was on the pitch, but (like most 10s) he does struggle on the back foot.
Francis - has shown nothing to warrant a summer tour
Genge - Returned from injury in barnstorming form. Strong in scrum and with ball in hand. Can he carry that to the international game though?
George - Not in the form of his life. Probably needs a summer off but will be desperate to travel.
Graham - I honestly cannot comment as only seen him once.
Hartley - currently injured. Form not great and should in all honesty be dropped.
Haskell - consistent physicality. Surely we need to look beyond that though.
Hepburn - Promising debut and in form for Exeter. Chances of travelling dependent on decision re Mako
Hughes - Currently injured. Unlikely to play again this season and thus should not tour.
Isiekwe - Lots of competition but outstanding prospect.
Itoje - Cannot see Jones resting him for the tour. Perhaps expectations are too high, but he needs to refind a bit of mojo.
Joseph - Struggling for form and may now miss tour due to injury
Kruis - Is he in form? Certainly had a major dip in form after being dropped by the Lions. A favourite of Borthwick who will surely tour.
Launchbury - Indefatigable workhorse and Fan favourite. Could need the summer to recharge though.
Lawes - Injury probably rules him out.
Lozowski - unable to secure a starting place at Sarries but certain to tour.
Mallinder - Currently injured. Jones perhaps thinking about him as a FB?
Marler - Having missed so many games due to suspensions will be desperate to travel. Probably second choice now behind Mako in Jones eyes.
May - With Watson missing the tour will be competing with Nowell for teh 14 shirt.
Mercer - A talent, but not ready.
Mullan - Time has gone.
Nowell - Certain to tour and be in matchday squads. Will he start?
Obano - RFU cannot be arsed to source a pic for the website - shows both the sudden rise and then the impact of injury. Competing with Hepburn to be 4th choice?
Robshaw - England's best player in the 6Ns. Even so we will struggle if he plays 7.
Simmons - Flat track bully? Should travel and a good bench option especially on hard tracks.
Sinckler - Not as effective when starting but should tour and along with Williams will be looking to remove Cole from the picture.
Slade - Would olve to see him feature at 13 (or 15). Versatilty means he will travel, but is their space in the team.
Smith - Not ready just yet.
Solomona - misses the end of teh season with hi sban. Scores tries for fun with Sale - but can he do the same against a good international side?
Te'o - Not fully fit in the 6Ns. Jones likes his physicality - but is that really enough to start?
Thomas - WTF!!!
Tuilagi - Injured
Underhill - Ditto
Vunipola, Mako - Could do with a rest. Would give Jones a chance to review the options behind him.
Watson - Will not tour following surgery
Wigglesworth - Please lord no.
Williams - Strong contender to tour.
Youngs - If he stays fit to end of season will tour.


Others in no specific order

Billy Vunipola - If he can demonstrate fitness will tour. We need him, but we need him fit.
Robson - Should tour, probably will not.
Ben Curry - playing well may tour dependent on injuries.
Spencer - Better player than Wiggy
Shields - will he still be needed in Super Rugby?
Marchant - possible Joseph replacement if the Bath man misses tour.
Wilson, Mark - Did well last summer, but possibly injured and unlikely to travel.
Ibitoye - may travel as this summer's Cokanasiga

What about the chances of Joe Simmonds touring a more robust option than Smith.

I think Joe Simmons would be well down the pecking order tbh.

rosbif wrote:What about the chances of Joe Simmonds touring a more robust option than Smith.

Probably depends upon whether Farrell tours (with Ford, Farrell and Loz is a 3rd player covering 10 needed) and whether he starts or is behind Steenson come the play-off games. Of course for the Barbarians match there will need to be two people capable of playing 10 - should Exeter and Sarries make the AP final that Would probably be Ford and then Smith or Francis I guess.

Cockasaniga?

I have a horrible feeling he's going to go conservative and stick rather than twist. Let's be honest all incumbents will be desperate to tour even though after a poor showing and will be wanting a second chance. No-one will want to rest. This in my opinion is where Eddie has to earn his corn and be brave to through in a few bolters. Hartley I think is gone.

I actually think this is a pivotal tour...its where a few key combos will be built...that will be tested in the AI's and on to the world cup

I agree though...I think he'll go with who ever is available

Ie Dan Cole...etc.

Is this a fearsome South Africa Team we're going to be facing? I don't know what they're like at the moment.

Is it a place we want to be trialing players (I appreciate in certain positions we have no choice and MUST)

Shields looks like he's going to be touring

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/18/eddie-jones-allowed-pick-brad-shields-england-south-africa-tour

Also rumours that Hartleys concussion issues are more serious than people think and he may also miss the tour ....and in the same report it claims that Jones is already prepared and intent on resting some core players. Maybe we might see a few changes we are hoping for after all...

Surely if Joseph is injured the best choices for 13 would be Daly and Slade? Especially if Teo still isn't properly fit?

Whats happened to Marchant...I thought he was supposed to be outstanding at 13 and going to take over from Joseph.

Id have Daly at 15. Pace, skills and that atomic boot...

I see Jones has special dispensation to select Shields for the tour. Be silly not to with the hard work already have been done. Be interesting how his Canes workload will be impacted, something the ABs face with France anyway, except in this case Shirlds would normally be expected to cover for his AB team mates... Fifita, also an option at 6, for example.

It's been a tough season for quins, he's only been defending when I've seen him play. Hartley could have to retire if it's another bad concussion. Daly at full back would be fine but as a wasps fan his best position is 13. He's the sort of player than you could put anywhere and he would be good. Shields will go to sa despite not earning the shirt but I guess it ties him to England and then into the bun fight. He can't leave out Genge, who looks good imo youngs is back so no new nines will travel that leaves hooker open to a third probably Dunn. He's also under agreement to pick as strong a squad as possible.

So I reckon
1. Mako, marler, Genge
2. George, LCD, Dunn
3. Cole, Sinkler, Williams
4. Launchbury, isekwe
5. Maro, Kruise
6&7 Robshaw, shields, Underhill, Haskell, + 1
8. Billy, Simmonds
9. Care, youngs
10. Ford, Smith, Farrell
11 & 13May, Nowell Daly
12 & 13 Farrell, Teo
Slade,
15 Brown

+3 bolters (God only knows)

He will play an experimental team in the first game as assuming chiefs and sarries in Prem final they may need extra time before being flogged to death in tests 2 and 3

I think i'd rest your front row Yoda - Mako, George, Cole. They look knackered and need a good rest.

And we need to see what Genge, Obano, Hepburn, Sinkler, WIlliams etc can offer. We need real explosiveness in that front row now. Cole for me just doesn't offer enough now ...even at the breakdown like he used to.

One of the Currys must go. I was impressed with Ben v the falcons.

And I think Gary Graham is worth a look aswell.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats happened to Marchant...I thought he was supposed to be outstanding at 13 and going to take over from Joseph.

Id have Daly at 15. Pace, skills and that atomic boot...

Marchant is quality, and looks deadly with the ball. Unfortunately he's been injured a lot this season, and when not injured he's been in a terrible Quins team.

Yoda wrote:
He will play an experimental team in the first game as assuming chiefs and sarries in Prem final they may need extra time before being flogged to death in tests 2 and 3

There are two weeks between the AP final and T1. Any players not in the AP final will feature the day after against the Barbarians.

SA on the other hand play Wales in the States just a week before T1 - so I cannot see Jones resting players who feature in the Final as they will have had far m ore rest (and much less travelling) than the Boks.

Yes we should see a few players getting a chance. Just need a little bit of luck that the players that impress are primarily in our problem positions and that they then get a bit of luck t establish themselves into the autumn and beyond.

NZRU sound unwilling to release Shields from his Super Rugby contract. In theory, any player called up in an international window ought to be released but NZRU claim he's signed somethng called a Schedule Three, which only makes him available for Kiwi teams.

"I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that he will be available from our point of view," NZR chief executive Steve Tew said.

"He has signed to New Zealand and he is contracted to play for New Zealand teams until the end of Super Rugby.

"We have a New Zealand player who is contracted to be here until the end of that competition and that would be our expectation. We are obligated to release players who have signed to play for other countries so they have made themselves unavailable for New Zealand.

"We always make sure that occurs and that is of particular relevance to the Pacific countries. But in this instance, Brad has signed a contract that makes him available for New Zealand teams."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12035813

Hmm, surely Francis had signed the same contract?

Wonder if this was introduced after Haskell's appearance in super rugby?

Anyway surely their beef would then be with the player - as International regulations insist players must be made available for IR window games. Quite rightly AP woudl be slagged off if they tried to stop a player being called up during International Windows.

Francis wasn't likely to get a game for NZ, whereas Shields was a possible.

If he doesn't go to SA with England (which I actually hope he doesn't) then he will lose ground as hopefully Underhill, Curry x 2, etc etc will really make some positive impressions.

The Super rugby season ends 13th July for the round games.....seems like he may not be available.

The Super rugby season ends 13th July for the round games.....seems like he may not be available

.

whether he should be picked is a moot point, however if he IS picked, the club has to release him as it's an official test window.

Them's the rools.

Not necessarily TA.

9.38 When a Union enters into a written agreement with a Player that contemplates the Player representing that Union at senior or next Senior Fifteen-A-Side National Representative Team level (whether at fifteen-aside or seven-a-side Rugby), the Union may seek the Player’s written agreement that the Player shall not be available for selection, attendance and/or appearance in a National Representative Team or National Squad of another Union during the term of that written agreement, including any extension thereof, provided that, prior to the execution of any such written agreement, the following conditions were satisfied:[...]


Really surprised by this clause exists. I wonder whether it has been used by the RFU to prevent any duel qualified players from playing for another country.


A couple of months back I heard that Bateman's contract extension at Tigers was dependent on him making himself unavailable for selection by Wales, I'm now wondering whether the RFU could have formalised the arrangement.

Nice one Fuzzy D, so the NZRU are not just spouting out of their nether regions, there are loopholes - but of course that would only hold true if whatsey's-name had actually put pen to paper committing himself to the AB's.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Not necessarily TA.

9.38        When a Union enters into a written agreement with a Player that contemplates the Player representing that Union at senior or next Senior Fifteen-A-Side National Representative Team level (whether at fifteen-aside or seven-a-side Rugby), the Union may seek the Player’s written agreement that the Player shall not be available for selection, attendance and/or appearance in a National Representative Team or National Squad of another Union during the term of that written agreement, including any extension thereof, provided that, prior to the execution of any such written agreement, the following conditions were satisfied:[...]


Really surprised by this clause exists. I wonder whether it has been used by the RFU to prevent any duel qualified players from playing for another country.


A couple of months back I heard that Bateman's contract extension at Tigers was dependent on him making himself unavailable for selection by Wales, I'm now wondering whether the RFU could have formalised the arrangement.

I had heard something similar but it seemed to be more in relation to PI players playing for T14 sides.

Well that's good imo means shields will have to at least played against his competition for the jersey before waltzing onto the England team. We have plenty of other players to try first who deserve the opportunity to tour.

Spot on Yoda!!!

Sorry but if he's signed a contract stating he wants to play for the ABs then he doubly shouldn't be picked for England!

Ill not say a word Yappy everyone knows my feelings...

So come on everyone give us the starting pack in SA first test.

Ok heres mine...feel free to pull it to pieces.

1 Genge (Obano off the bench)
2 Dunn (LCD off the bench)
3 Sinkler (Williams off the bench)

Rest Mako, Marler, Cole, Hartley (he may not get back in) , George, and give the explosive kids some real responsibility...to keep the aggression...but control the yellow / red cards! Can they do it? This is a good test that wont cost us much if it goes pear shaped, but could be monumental with the world cup closing in, if it goes right!

4 Isiekwe
5 Kruis (Green)

Kruis has been out of form and injured but on form is just a top class operator. He needs a real good tour to see if he can get back to that level. Isiekwe is another huge second row talent coming through and lets just put him in. Calum green on the bench. No one else is going to break in to the top class lock stable at the moment, so Green offers a very strong option for this tour both in grunt and lineout ability, but also takes into account his consistently excellent outings for a top 4 premiership side.
Itoje, Launchbury gets a rest, Lawes is out injured.

6 Underhill (Graham off the bench)
7  Ben Curry / Tom Curry (Simmonds off the bench)
8 Billy V (Mercer off the bench)

Hoping if Billy is fit he needs gametime, not rest. That back row has physicality, breakdown operators and big carrying (this time backed up by the front row) . Currys are excellent link players as well.

The bench players offer huge impact and pace.

GF

Loved Calum Green ever since he made his debut for us at Saints and won MotM. However think he is too short and too fat to be an international lock.

If we could get an agreement with the club's that any Lions who go on the tour do not play again till October my pack would be:

Marler, George, Williams, Itoje, Kruis, Robshaw, Curry, Billy.

LCD, Genge, Sinckler, Isiekwe, Simmonds

Thus resting Mako and Launchbury. Underhill if fit to play 7 innT2 and 6 in T3.

Backs would be:

Youngs (assuming fitness proven), Ford, May, Farrell, Slade, Nowell, Daly

I want Robson to tour, and if Youngs unfit to start. I want Farrell tonne given all 3 tests as skipper to see if he caught the mustard. Then as with Lions in the pack sent on a long holiday and prevented from playing till October.