England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

Well as one door shuts on one another opens and hopefully Mercer, Willis and the currys can come up trumps.

LondonTiger wrote:GF

Loved Calum Green ever since he made his debut for us at Saints and won MotM. However think he is too short and too fat to be an international lock.

He's an inch shorter than Itoje and Isiekwe....
He's the leading lineout guy in the league and the leading lineout steals...and that with him being our bit of grunt in the engine room. He's our Louis Deacon.

LondonTiger wrote:If we could get an agreement with the club's that any Lions who go on the tour do not play again till October my pack would be:

.

That would make a big difference. But never in a million years would it be agreed.

I think Shields should be let go, not normally something I'd agree with but Hansen would have picked him by now and has tried Luatua, Fifita, Dixon, Messam and a couple of others as Kaino replacements before even looking at Shields.

He could have given him half a test at any time before now to knock out any England chances but hasnt, and I think that's because he really sees him with a better chance with England. Hes served the Canes well here and I think fits the England game better.

Shields has now formally requested a release. Let him go I say, will make the series that much more interesting for us anyway. I just don't want him scoring the winning try in the November test

Taylorman wrote:He could have given him half a test at any time before now to knock out any England chances but hasnt, and I think that's because he really sees him with a better chance with England. Hes served the Canes well here and I think fits the England game better.

Heard he was asked to join the NZ squad last autumn, when stocks were low. I think it was only going to be for the non-cap midweek match, and Shields explained that he had already signed for Wasps, so both sides agreed to look elsewhere, which seemed to be an acceptance he was still down the pecking order. Don't know if the Telegraph account is accurate:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/18/blacks-fury-brad-shields-defects-england/

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:If we could get an agreement with the club's that any Lions who go on the tour do not play again till October my pack would be:

That would make a big difference. But never in a million years would it be agreed.

And why should they? The club's pay the wages, why should they be punished? If England want these guys rested, they should leave them out of the tour imo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:If we could get an agreement with the club's that any Lions who go on the tour do not play again till October my pack would be:

That would make a big difference. But never in a million years would it be agreed.

And why should they? The club's pay the wages, why should they be punished? If England want these guys rested, they should leave them out of the tour imo.

There would have to be a financial inducement to do so, but I feel with RWC year looming that the rest is better at the start of the season rather than at the end of the preceding one. I actually feel it would be beneficial to the clubs to have their stars in better shape at the end of the season having not been flogged to death.

Will never happen of course.

I'm not so sure. The way england and the prl work is improving from the outside looking in. It is important that the rfu see the whole picture and not try to dictate and I think they are. There of course needs to be an eye on the bigger picture and as long as there's fair compensation an agreements we could gt the best of all world's. Am I being a bit of a dreamer?

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one.

Sad times if we're desperate to get a Kiwi in who isn't good enough for NZ, just to go on a non entity tour, when we have kids galore to be tried...

Will somebody think of the children!

With 2 English parents while for a scot to play....

Pretty sad for Shields that he has to pretend to be English to have his big day in the sunshine because he’s not good enough to be an AB. Good on him though and he’s a serviceable enough player so should do ok in England, home of the mighty forward pack....Vunipola x2, Hughes, Shields, Hartley. Did I miss anyone?

Bit of a loss to NZ. Back row isnt their biggest area of strength at the moment.

It’s a loss for the Hurricanes. Guns, we’ll just keep churning them out for the likes of you guys to cherry pick the duds with massive club offers and dubious national call ups.

Can't help wondering if Ebop has Welsh ancestry

ebop wrote:It’s a loss for the Hurricanes. Guns, we’ll just keep churning them out for the likes of you guys to cherry pick the duds with massive club offers and dubious national call ups.

Aside from Read not sure the ABs backrow scares any of the top teams. Bit of work to be done on the churning. Are Cane and Kaino not considered seat fillers in NZ? Holding the jersey until better players come along.

Its funny that they only become a dud when they decide they dont want to pay for the ABs. There is a big bad world outside NZ.

Shields is a dud and has been passed over for many years by the ABs, keep up guns. He’s a good enough player but was always 5-6 in the NZ pecking order. Not good enough to even get s token cap. Good luck to him though, seems like a stand up guy.

ebop wrote:Pretty sad for Shields that he has to pretend to be English to have his big day in the sunshine because he’s not good enough to be an AB. Good on him though and he’s a serviceable enough player so should do ok in England, home of the mighty forward pack....Vunipola x2, Hughes, Shields, Hartley. Did I miss anyone?

Armand, Ewers...

Hepburn. Kvesic. Thankfully ukip aren't in charge of qualification.

Just reading the update around Shields availability though and nz don't have a leg to stand on trying to prevent him from being selected.

Do you reckon the 2003 RWC winning England forward pack are turning in their graves? They’re all in graves aren’t they? It’s so long ago.

No 7&1/2 wrote:With 2 English parents while for a scot to play....

Theres probably a good amount I would play ahead of Graham, but at least he's actually played in the prem and lived in England and fought for a place in the England squad!

Not just parachuted in....

I would prefer to see him play in the prem tbf gf especially as well prob see another couple of caps in the back row anyway.

You really do like showing up yur lack of knowledge ebop. Vickery is still playing top level rugby for petes sake.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You really do like showing up yur lack of knowledge ebop. Vickery is still playing top level rugby for petes sake.

Really? I thought he had recently retired and moved into catering.

He'll go on forever.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hepburn. Kvesic. Thankfully ukip aren't in charge of qualification.

Kvesic? Two English parents and only born in Germany because his dad was there serving in the British Army. Not that he gets a look in anyway...

I see Jono Ross has been touted and now Shields is in. Just add Armand and we'll have a back row that knows the SH well this summer.

World Rugby are poking their noses into the Shields thing now, because they want to protect the primacy of the International game.

Just to clarify, is Shields looking for release from his Hurricanes contract? Or release from this Schedule 3 he has signed?

I have no problem with his call-up in theory. Even if he hasn't played in the Prem, if he's the best available let's pick him. Whether he is or not, I don't know, so I'll leave that to others to debate.

The qualification rules are a bit of a mess, I'd be all for changing them. But given the current rules, I don't think we should try to take the moral high ground on qualification.

I think the BR has been Eddie’s largest Achilles heel.

Given the vast number of BRers whose names are regularly bandied about -
Clifford
Chisholm
Mercer
Shields
Welch
Armond
Harrison
Waldrom
Haskell
Beaumont
Ross
Curry1
Curry2
Robshaw
Lawes:(
Wood
Vunipola
Hughes
Simmonds
Kvesic
Underhill
Itoje:(
Graham
Etc etc etc (apologies for the other 30 or so I’ve missed off the list),

and the huge strength in depth that we claim,
and the ever increasing EQ lining up,
and notwithstanding a few injuries,

- how is it that we arguably had the worst BR in the last series?

Come on Eddie, we’re running out of time and I’ve no idea who our 1st choice BR are, and why.

Or is Eddie right and Haskell/Robshaw/Billy are the only combination (when occasionally fit) that is remotely test-class?

And Mark Wilson!

Theres probably a good amount I would play ahead of Graham, but at least he's actually played in the prem and lived in England and fought for a place in the England squad!

Not just parachuted in....

And remember he was only born in Scotland because his dad packed his soon to be producing mam into a car and drove from Carlisle to Stirling for the 'Hello World' moment.

Sneaky tactics, but it's to be expected from a Borderer.
.

If Jones does go ahead and pick Shields, my main beef won't be that he picked him, but that he apparently gave him a number of indications that he would be up the England pecking order.

I have no way of knowing what Jones actually said but it was sufficient for Shields to feel moving to Wasps wasn't just for the money, but also for a genuine England shot. He might have signed anyway, but it helped his decision.

Meanwhile, Carl Fearns had already signed for Gloucester, after great performances in France (he was the top ball carrier in the Top14), when the French wanted him back. Jones put in a call to Fearns to see if he could influence his choice. Jones could have encouraged Fearns as he did Shields, but that's not what happened. According to Fearns, Jones told him "he would struggle to play 15 minutes of a Test match," and then called him a "whinger".

Again, Fearns may well have decided to stay in France anyway, since Jones made his comments after Fearns told him he was staying. However, Fearns says that the conversation with Jones reinforced his opinion he was doing the right thing. If Jones thought he could shame the player into going to Gloucester, he misjudged his man.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just reading the update around Shields availability though and nz don't have a leg to stand on trying to prevent him from being selected.

If one accepts the NZRU position that they can write into contracts clauses preventing players playing if selected for other countries what is to stop the English and French leagues for instance having similar contracts preventing all their players playing for any other country?

Exiledinborders wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just reading the update around Shields availability though and nz don't have a leg to stand on trying to prevent him from being selected.

If one accepts the NZRU position that they can write into contracts clauses preventing players playing if selected for other countries what is to stop the English and French leagues for instance having similar contracts preventing all their players playing for any other country?

France and England are club contracts, so those cases are clear cut. The NZRU were trying to claim that employees of the NZRU owe first loyalty to NZRU obligations, so the better comparison would be with the likes of Ireland and Scotland. Still, World Rugby is pretty clear that Test rugby trumps any other obligation.

Look whether we like it or not some simple facts remain. He qualifies under current rules, if he's the best player available then he's going to get the shirt, we are not the first to do this and we won't be the last, he will bring quality to any side he plays for. Although I'm with Geordie on this it is inevitable that this will become more common and I have resigned myself to the fact that Rugby is now a professional game that is driven by profits and results. All we can do is stop criticising other nations whilst conveniently forgetting or ignoring our own nations recruitment. This is nothing new really players having been playing for adopted countries since forever, prince obelski (the Russian lad who fled the communists) Gallagher who played for nz in the first world cup etc

Sadly it is what it is....the rules are there, and an Aussie coach wont have sentiments about who he plays.

Jones is under massive pressure now...both to improve the teams performances, but also to fix a few positions.

If he fails this Summer and in the AI's (we have NZ don't we...) and by god the knives will be out.
Lets hope his team performs....

We will compete I feel we may even win a test. South Africa aren't in that good a shape. We bimbled around in February and March and looked disinterested and flat footed overworked etc. No one was having fun it seemed in camp with endless fitness sessions. All I could see from rfu news pictures and updates were the squad carrying loads of weights up a hill. Must have been blooming boring and physically knackering. A bit of a trip to a very interesting and beautiful country might put a spring in the step. All I want to see is the desire back and smiles back on faces.

The last tour of SA was good.

Some very dodgy ref decisions favouring the home team but otherwise I thought the team went well. SA were a lot better back then though.

I expect at least 1 win in this tour, 2 would be great.

Will all the ring-in coaches and players in the England setup ultimately result in a right royal balls up? There needs to be a direction from the ground up. But the England philosophy seems to be a scrambling ‘bring in the best’ we can from wherever at the elite club and national level and that’s just a bit too random and cynical to ever be successful in the long run. Too many ring-ins without an essence of what England is about in recent England setups. They’re trying to be something they’re not and it’ll end in tears. Phil Vickery will be turning in his grave.

Ring ins?

Stone me I actually think ebop has a point. EJ seems more interested in the short term, and he's yet to show what his vision or squad-building abilities are for England.

He's wrong about big Phil though - don't think he's retired yet, let alone dead.

Oh is that what he means. Not sure he's not got an eye on the future though he has been a touch unlucky. You could point to hartley and Brown as many do but he's brought in Itoje underhill Mercer smith Bella cotton etc etc into squads. Our team isn't really that old though so it's been more about introducing into the environment and easing in.

It's nice that the England squad and players get so much attention from other nations fans, it's a back handed compliment I guess. You should see the poo storm on the BBC board about Brad shields. It's given all the wums and holier than though kiwis a forum for a bit of pommie bashing.

Jones knows that international rugby is about results so will have short term options and long term options. He tried to pick the future but they kept getting injured.

GF you say the knives will be out after our autumn losses. Well to be honest the facts are right in front of us, and that is to say there is absolutely no evidence to show that Jones will cope any better with the coming summer and autumn selection and coaching/over training regimes than he has with this spring and last autumn. Basically expect more of the same.
Fundamentally everyone can see how the bigger picture is crucifying the national side and how that could be mitigated by better player welfare. However nothing is going to change and the required monies will be staying in the back pockets and bonuses of the RFU executives.
As for Jones he has disappointed and will continue to do so.
By the way, if its not obvious, I am in favour of resting the vast majority of our exhausted national squad and injury returnees for a real off season r&r, meaning we should take a proper development squad to Africa. However I'm unsure if any of you guys have noticed that RSA are coming back quite nicely and will therefore take the series whoever we select. Jones and a group of fresh faces will not only cope with this better but will learn much more from it.

2 six nations and a joint record winning streak.

1 GS which was won in hang over of a world cup as we shook ourselves down from the miserable embarrassment of 2015.
Anyway what I'm talking about is the future as I see it. What your prediction? Will Jones carry on as is and select knackered players? Will RSA win regardless? I'm never sure if you actually have any of your own idea's as all you do is counter others.

Ah. Cool so we can write off this year as a hangover from the lions. I do call out when I don't agree. It's a discussion forum not an echo chamber.

Until all is revealed it is pure hearsay and opinion. We have to give Jones some credit for the record post 2015. We are not privy to any facets of his decision making or indeed the selection pressures he is under from rfu, sponsors, clubs etc. I think I'm right in saying that Rugby unions stipulate and agree the strength of squad that tours and of course the money men stick their noses in. Don't expect too many changes but Jones likes his bolters. Having watched a bit of super Rugby the south African teams look OK but not standout, the European boys back will significantly improve their squad. So we diddly squat and shouldn't beat ourselves up or eddy. Just looking forward to watching good games of Rugby.

Very true. Some seem only to be able to enjoy the game should their team win.