England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

Unfortunately it's something that's creeping into the game, the I didn't't win so I'm going to cry and stamp my feet brigade. Rugby is a challenge that should be enjoyed as winners or losers. The next best feeling to winning well is everyone fighting for each other when under the pump, that's a true team bond. That's why the forces love Rugby because it challenges you physically and mentally when under pressure. A hooligans game played by gentlemen and ladies.

Yoda wrote:Unfortunately it's something that's creeping into the game, the I didn't't win so I'm going to cry and stamp my feet brigade. Rugby is a challenge that should be enjoyed as winners or losers. The next best feeling to winning well is everyone fighting for each other when under the pump, that's a true team bond. That's why the forces love Rugby because it challenges you physically and mentally when under pressure. A hooligans game played by gentlemen and ladies.

Utter tosh, completely out of context.

The facts are that we as nation should be achieving so much more both on and off the field and are crippled by competing club, country, off field corporate and on field performance interests and while the fat cats at Twickenham continue to enjoy the gravy train, nothing is going to change.

Winning the WC hasn't really been top priority since 03. Self interest and financial greed appear far more important.

Start off with an acknowledgment that club and country should be a partnership. What would you propose as an additional agreement to improve. A more fluid set of players hat england has additional say over. Limiting all players game time? Reducing prem? More money for top clubs o pay top wages and less to grass roots? There are lots of ways the rfu and prl old go including scrapping summer tours and ais every other year. Reduces revenues etc though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Very true. Some seem only to be able to enjoy the game should their team win.

Chill out kinderfield, I was addressing 7 1/2 comment. If he was having a pop at you then sorry didn't want to get in to a personal spat. You seem very angry about the set up but you can't have your cake and eat it the game is professional and therefore involves money and those who bring it will demand their lb of flesh in return for your entertainment. If you don't like professional rugby then support your local amateur Club and don't financially contribute to the monster of commercialism. England will be fine and compete once again but forget any changes like the Irish and New Zealand model, it ain't going to happen.

Yoda wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Very true. Some seem only to be able to enjoy the game should their team win.

Chill out kinderfield, I was addressing 7 1/2 comment. If he was having a pop at you then sorry didn't want to get in to a personal spat. You seem very angry about the set up but you can't have your cake and eat it the game is professional and therefore involves money and those who bring it will demand their lb of flesh in return for your entertainment. If you don't like professional rugby then support your local amateur Club and don't financially contribute to the monster of commercialism. England will be fine and compete once again but forget any changes like the Irish and New Zealand model, it ain't going to happen.

It doesn't need to change. We just need to ensure we don't flood our club teams with foreigners, and continue to give the kids gametime.

As to the England side, we need to make sure selection and tactics are correct...as they weren't this 6.

The eligibility debate aside, if you add Shields to a hypothetical 31 man RWC squad it's hard to deny he improves it. With no back up to Robshaw currently he offers a very good option at 6.

1.M Vunipola, Marler, Genge
2.Hartley, George, Taylor
3.Cole, Sinckler
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Lawes, Kruis
6.Robshaw, Shields
7.Underhill, T Curry
8.B Vunipola, Hughes

9.Youngs, Care
10.G Ford

11.Daly, May
12.Farrell, Slade
13.Joseph, Te'o
14.Watson, Nowell
15.Watson, Brown

That's sacrificing a 3rd tight-head to get 6 back row players to add options to a weak area.

Personally I think that pack looks much better for Sheilds being in there. Outside of Shields you are looking at Haskell (fading), Clifford (fitness issues), Simmonds (not a blindside), Armand (is he better than Shields?).

Will willis be seen more as a 6 or a 7? He's pushing himself to be a realistic option in the near to mid future.

Hartley is ruled out of the tour with concussion.

George looked jaded in the Six Nations, how has he come back from Saracens since?

Taking Cowan-Dickie, Taylor and Dunn (whose names have all been bandied about) would be a very inexperienced set of players. Also, with Hartley out I'm sure George would hate to miss his chance to nail down that 2 shirt.

Sounds concerning about hartley.

Its unfortunate for Dylan, I hate to see players out injured, but Hartley might struggle to get back in now...if the inexperienced guys put in some performances.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its unfortunate for Dylan, I hate to see players out injured, but Hartley might struggle to get back in now

Hartley is reported to have said, after his last concussion, that another one would see him consider his future. He's now talking of comimg back, which demonstrates just how hard it is for a professional sportsman to make that kind of decision. He's thinking to himself "Just give me one more year".

If they perform as they can at prem level possibly. At the moment hes cemented as 1st choice rightly.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its unfortunate for Dylan, I hate to see players out injured, but Hartley might struggle to get back in now

Hartley is reported to have said, after his last concussion, that another one would see him consider his future. He's now talking of comimg back, which demonstrates just how hard it is for a professional sportsman to make that kind of decision. He's thinking to himself "Just give me one more year".

After being Thompson's understudy in 2011 and subsequently missing the 2013 Lions tour and 2015 World Cup due to suspension and then not being picked for the 2017 tour, it isn't much of a leap to suggest that the 2019 Rugby World Cup would be a massive target for him. As you say, he'll be thinking one more year. Maybe the break will do him good. Maybe he can rest up, come back firing for Northampton, win back an England shirt and then call it a day after the 2019 World Cup, when he'll be 33. Possibly a bit young to retire from all rugby, but if there are concussion issues then its better safe than sorry.

Well I think we may have seen the last of Dylan. A good servant to England and played with tenacity over his 90 odd caps. I would love to see his lineout stats against others. Hopefully no permanent damage and he does put his health over his career. Assuming we take three hookers George, LCD and either Dunne or Taylor. Would be harsh on Dunne if he didn't get the nod as Taylor only just coming back. I have visions of LCD practising his throwing day and night as this is the only thing stopping him being no 1 imo, also needs to be calmer at the right times when needed.

king_carlos wrote:The eligibility debate aside, if you add Shields to a hypothetical 31 man RWC squad it's hard to deny he improves it. With no back up to Robshaw currently he offers a very good option at 6.

1.M Vunipola, Marler, Genge
2.Hartley, George, Taylor
3.Cole, Sinckler
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Lawes, Kruis
6.Robshaw, Shields
7.Underhill, T Curry
8.B Vunipola, Hughes

9.Youngs, Care
10.G Ford

11.Daly, May
12.Farrell, Slade
13.Joseph, Te'o
14.Watson, Nowell
15.Watson, Brown

That's sacrificing a 3rd tight-head to get 6 back row players to add options to a weak area.

Personally I think that pack looks much better for Sheilds being in there. Outside of Shields you are looking at Haskell (fading), Clifford (fitness issues), Simmonds (not a blindside), Armand (is he better than Shields?).

You have Watson twice

Yoda wrote:Well I think we may have seen the last of Dylan. A good servant to England and played with tenacity over his 90 odd caps. I would love to see his lineout stats against others. Hopefully no permanent damage and he does put his health over his career. Assuming we take three hookers George, LCD and either Dunne or Taylor. Would be harsh on Dunne if he didn't get the nod as Taylor only just coming back.  I have visions of LCD practising his throwing day and night as this is the only thing stopping him being no 1 imo, also needs to be calmer at the right times when needed.

One other issue with LCD is the injuries. He seems to spend a lot of time on the treatment table

yappysnap wrote:

king_carlos wrote:The eligibility debate aside, if you add Shields to a hypothetical 31 man RWC squad it's hard to deny he improves it. With no back up to Robshaw currently he offers a very good option at 6.

1.M Vunipola, Marler, Genge
2.Hartley, George, Taylor
3.Cole, Sinckler
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Lawes, Kruis
6.Robshaw, Shields
7.Underhill, T Curry
8.B Vunipola, Hughes

9.Youngs, Care
10.G Ford

11.Daly, May
12.Farrell, Slade
13.Joseph, Te'o
14.Watson, Nowell
15.Watson, Brown

That's sacrificing a 3rd tight-head to get 6 back row players to add options to a weak area.

Personally I think that pack looks much better for Sheilds being in there. Outside of Shields you are looking at Haskell (fading), Clifford (fitness issues), Simmonds (not a blindside), Armand (is he better than Shields?).

You have Watson twice

First one was meant to be Roko, cheers yappy.

On the BBC article they are reporting that the following players are out of the tour.

Hartley - concussion
Lawes - knee ligament injury
Hughes - knee ligament injury
Joseph - foot injury (requires surgery)
Watson - achilles injury

Do we know of any more who are definitely out?

In terms of players on the comeback trail:

Billy Vunipola - didn't feature against Bath (15/04)
Ben Youngs - came off the bench against Northampton (14/04)
Manu Tuilagi - didn't feature against Northampton (14/04)

Is there anyone else with fitness concerns (not including fatigue)?

Regular squad players all appearing in the last round of Premiership games:
Exeter: Cowan-Dickie, Armand, Simmonds, Slade, Nowell, Williams,
Leicester: Genge, Cole, Ford, May, B Youngs
Quins: Marler, Sinckler, Clifford, Robshaw, Care, Smith, Brown
Wasps: Launchbury, Daly, Haskell
Worcester: Te'o
Saracens: M Vunipola, Kruis, Isiekwe, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Lozowski, George
Bath: Ewels, Joseph

Does Underhill have a knock? I'm assuming Itoje was just rested. Other than those 2, that's most of the regulars not already accounted for.

From the names that crop up most on this thread, the following were all in matchday 23s so should hopefully be fit for consideration:

Graham, B Curry, T Curry, Marchant, Ibitoye, Robson, Obano, Dunn.

All could potentially be available for the Barbarians game if the top 2 get through to the final, and it would be good to see some of them get a run in an England shirt.

If we take out Saracens and Exeter, we could have a team for the Barbarians of:

Genge, Dunn, Sinckler, Launchbury, Ewels, Robshaw, B Curry, Clifford
Care, Ford, Daly, Te'o, Marchant, Ibitoye, Brown
Perhaps with Obano, T Curry, Robson and Smith amongst the substitutes?

So is everyone in agreement that if they are fit...then as far as Eddie is concerned they travel regardless of how much they've played over the last year / year and a half.

So We can expect:

1.M Vunipola, Marler, Genge
2. George, LCD, Dunn
3.Cole, Sinckler
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5. Kruis, Ewells
6.Robshaw, Shields
7.Underhill, (1 From Curry x 2, Graham..etc)
8.B Vunipola, (Simmonds v Armand)

9.Youngs, Care
10.G Ford
11.Daly, May
12.Farrell, Slade
13.Te'o, Lozowski
14.Nowell, Cockasaniga / Roko
15.Brown

GeordieFalcon wrote:So is everyone in agreement that if they are fit...then as far as Eddie is concerned they travel regardless of how much they've played over the last year / year and a half.

I think Eddie will take them as long as he thinks they're physically up to another 3 test matches, even if they don't perform at their best.

On your squad:

Personally, I think Armand is more likely to be competing with (and losing out to) Shields over Simmonds. I could see Eddie taking Shields and Simmonds or Armand and Simmonds, but not sure I could see him taking Shields and Armand.

Armand could even go alongside Shields and Simmonds as the 3 options, or potentially with an additional player. It's a weak area, and he shouldn't hesitate taking a 7th option so he can assess who is ahead on tour.

I do however think we'll see Isiekwe, so that would probably mean 4 locks, 6 back row + Isiekwe covering 4/5/6. In that instance, I wouldn't imagine we'd see an additional flanker as well.

I think we'll see Marcus Smith against the Barbarians, but not sure if he'd tour. I'm leaning towards Eddie taking him to continue his apprenticeship, but we'll see.

I think Ibitoye would probably be ahead of Cockasaniga and Roko after he got called up as an apprentice player during the 6 Nations. I also think we could do with one more fullback in there, so I would expect to see Jones go for Mallinder.

It's not the squad I'd pick, but I think we'll see something like:

1.M Vunipola, Marler, Genge
2. George, LCD, Dunn
3.Cole, Sinckler, Williams
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5. Kruis, Ewells, Isiekwe
6.Robshaw, Shields
7.Underhill, B Curry
8.B Vunipola, Simmonds

9.Youngs, Care
10.G Ford
11.Daly, May
12.Farrell, Slade
13.Te'o, Lozowski
14.Nowell, Ibitoye
15.Brown, Mallinder

That gives 33, are there any midweek matches on tour?

Not wishing to make light of the seriouness of concussion but the BBC report on Hartley made me chuckle out loud

England captain Dylan Hartley "won't do anything stupid"

..said quoate coming from Englands third most idiotic player Danny Care.

Jokes aside its worth remembering that 2 years ago its unlikely he would've been taking this break. But even as is theres real concern that the protocols and increased personal responsibility (caution) being taken by players is enough. Theres reports elsewhere of a call to limit heavy contact training, its hard to see how that copuld be practicaly policed though.

Gooseberry wrote:Not wishing to make light of the seriouness of concussion but the BBC report on Hartley made me chuckle out loud

England captain Dylan Hartley "won't do anything stupid"

..said quoate coming from Englands third most idiotic player Danny Care.

Jokes aside its worth remembering that 2 years ago its unlikely he would've been taking this break. But even as is theres real concern that the protocols and increased personal responsibility (caution) being taken by players is enough. Theres reports elsewhere of a call to limit heavy contact training, its hard to see how that copuld be practicaly policed though.

If every club dropped heavy contact sessions and saw drops in concussion numbers, you can investigate any club that doesn't see a drop in concussion numbers?

You could have coaches and team medics sign declarations to say that there have only been so many hours of contact in a week, and if they lie on their declaration then they are effectively putting players at risk and therefore would open themselves up to lawsuits.

The final way would be whistleblowing I guess. If you got enough of an attitude shift to get the players and other staff to see this as important, one person trying to break the rules would be found out. I guess that is what they want to get to, everyone taking concussion seriously and abiding by the rules because they want to do what's best for the players, not because it's the path of least resistance and they just don't want to get in trouble.

The concussion issue rages on and on, but I honestly believe it's never been better dealt with as in the past players would shake off head injuries and play on. I can remember vividly players who were sparko who carried on in my youth. The care players receive now even at youth and lower levels is good and everyone is aware. Also with the removal of proper rucking from the game, people over a certain age will remember, has protected us from some nasty injuries.

Going back to the squad I like the look of Gary Graham I hope he gets a chance and I think Jason Woodward will go to. Also Willis needs to go but probably won't unfortunately.

If we need another prop I'd omit Roko and bring them in. Otherwise that squad seems good

Maybe I’m a bit late with this, but why the problem with Brad Shields. He’s English, with English parents. Yeah, he’s played his rugby abroad but he’s still English by both parents.

Umm, no. He’s a NZer with English parents that emigrated to NZ as teenagers and grew up as NZers. England picking Shields would be an admission of sorts. That England loose forwards aren’t up to it so they draft in a fully developed professional from another country. It’s within the rules but it smells off.

That’s a bit rich coming from the land of the long white poach ebop

It’s ok Cyril, I reckon it reflects more badly on your Aussie coach, whom has no shame. It’s an Aussie trait. I don’t think a home grown English coach would be so desperate to push through a move like this. Eddie may get results but he’ll bastardise England rugby in the process.

Oh blimey ground hog day! Let's not get into petty squabbling. New Zealand do indeed field players not born in nz as does every other side in the world bar Argentina. But the Brad shields debate has split many England supporters and he should at least play in anger in the Prem against his competition before wearing the rose. Yes it's hypocracy that kiwis bleet on that the all blacks would never do such a thing etc but it will always be like that.

The ABs don’t pick ‘fully fledged professional players’ from other countries. There’s a massive difference. NH teams piggy backing off the hard work of others.

Nz trying to piggyback off the hard work of Mr and Mrs shields.

Ebop we've already had this debate which I instigated...Go backthrough the threads.
I also said that he doesn't care about those things because he's an Aussie coach.

Anyway back on topic...
Dan Cole should be left back home. He simply doesn't do enough round the park as modern props do and indeed he used to when he was younger. (His breakdown work etc used to be great, but its non existent now) Leave him at home and push for Sinkler, Williams etc.

If he was in NZ's plans, he'd of been picked years ago. He's 27 end of the day and has English parents, it's completely fine.

We've just had a similar situation at Falcons with Chris Harris, who at 27, has recently been capped by Scotland, despite being born and raised in England. If we'd have wanted him, he'd have been capped already.

Also a few years back, Tom Francis getting capped by Wales. Francis is English with English parents and a Welsh grandmother. End of the day, it happens to all nations, it's all within the rules.

Shields according to what I`ve read somewhere he was offered a squad place in2016 and turned it down.
Oh Cyril still perpetuating that myth,44 or so since1903 hardly raping the country,but you know best my
little troll.
Having seen the Super Rugby recently,only Australia seem basket cases South Africa sides seem
to be quite strong,Jaguars on a roll 5on the trot including on the road.
Since 1990`s no Coach has got past the Club situation despite SCW having won a RWC,the Window
thing is a pain causing players being.Neither being released or training time and rumour has it
was the reason he quit,his successors.Both had better win /loss stats than SCW until there sacking
Lancaster the caretaker lost 4 matches in 4 years,a championship 4years running on goal difference
left a good squad behind him.
Many of the injuries to players during training or warm ups ,groin strains,ham strings etc.Fitness
is down to the players,bench pressing an Elephant is useless if you only last 30 minutes.
When one gets comments about England players injured in the cause of the game like "CLUB X"
won`t thank them for that makes me sick.
Whilst don`t approve of fielding weakened sides,a club with 46 men squads could target weaker
sides.
.

Shields was apparently offered to join the NZ tour party in November 2017 as injury cover, but he has said that wasn't true. This was the same time he was negotiating with Wasps about coming over to join.

Thing is, Shields is eligible for NZ on residency grounds and England for parental grounds. It is HIS choice who he plays for. If that means he thinks it's more likely he'll get a cap playing for England then so be it. If it's within the rules, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

English Rugby clearly have an eye on him. Will he tour? Depends on the political situation i guess, but I reckon that it'll be all smoothed out by the end of the Premiership season before the playoffs start.

If Shields scores the winning try in the RWC Final allowing England to lift the trophy, would England fans be upset? I doubt it - he'd have become as English as a full cooked breakfast! Still, that's unlikely. The guy clearly wants to play rugby and like it or not he meets the criteria to play for this country. It is up to those in charge, not us. I don't like players being parachuted in, but our back row has been in dire need of a sort out since 2016. We need a proper 7, and Shields is an ideal 6 to assist the younger 7s and to give both Robshaw and Haskell a rest or even to replace them.

UK, NZ and other Commonwealth countries will have that migratory link back and forth. I have friends in Nz I have kiwis mates in UK and it gets a little foggy where nationality lies because ultimately we are intrinsically close in most areas. What can we do regarding eligibility, indigenous people only? I get the whole product of the rugby system thing but players are free to roam they are not products but people in a professional sport and it's swings and roundabouts when it comes to employment. I will always stick to my guns about shields having to play Prem rugby first against the competition for shirt but there will be plenty who disagree doesn't make them wrong.

Mr Bounce wrote:Thing is, Shields is eligible for NZ on residency grounds and England for parental grounds. It is HIS choice who he plays for. If that means he thinks it's more likely he'll get a cap playing for England then so be it. If it's within the rules, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

English Rugby clearly have an eye on him. Will he tour? Depends on the political situation i guess, but I reckon that it'll be all smoothed out by the end of the Premiership season before the playoffs start.

If Shields scores the winning try in the RWC Final allowing England to lift the trophy, would England fans be upset? I doubt it - he'd have become as English as a full cooked breakfast! Still, that's unlikely. The guy clearly wants to play rugby and like it or not he meets the criteria to play for this country. It is up to those in charge, not us. I don't like players being parachuted in, but our back row has been in dire need of a sort out since 2016. We need a proper 7, and Shields is an ideal 6 to assist the younger 7s and to give both Robshaw and Haskell a rest or even to replace them.

The point that some are making is that Shields is a product of the professional game in NZ.

In which case, Hartley and the Vunipolas are "ours" because they've only played professional rugby in England.

You can't cut it both ways.

That's where I imagine it becomes a bit annoying for the NZ fans. Even though Shields was unlikely to get capped, they saw him as theirs and he could be a possible future AB.

We've had the exact same thing with the Welsh (Moriarty, Francis, Ball, Charteris, Cracknell, Davies, Cuthbert etc), Scotland (Harris, Swinson, Dell, Harley, Watson, Wilson, Price, Taylor etc) and Ireland (Marmion and potentially Addison/Haley).

It's just something you've got to be pro-active about (us looking to cap Graham?) or just suck it up as it's completely within the rules.

The rules are the same for everyone,Shields was born in NZ played thru there system,lived in NZ
and capped at under21 level.He DOESN`T qualify on residency, he is a NZ lander with English parents
therefore dual qualified.
Over the weekend watched some Super Rugby 4 famous names were mentioned Fergie McCormack
died.The sons of Blackadder,Gatland,and Walter Little,the first two had solid games,Tim Little
on the other hand had a blinder.Straight out the bosh brothers trade book Walter should be
proud, he can`t get a NZfranchise plays for Sunwolves.
I`ve heard the phrase Journeyman ephiphet for players well Mike Delany a 35 old one cap AB put
in a master class in wet weather rugby for Crusaders.
Last season there was talk of Jimmy Goppereth being capped for England,anotherJourney man but
a consistent one.
I don`t pretend to pick the England squad but would suggest a mix of young hopefuls plus a spine
of experience.
This year all the sides will be looking for squads for 2019 and RWC,EJ has a contract thru 2019
but a get out clause applies.
Expect many teams having unexpected losses to get their squads right for 2019.Finally the
ultimate irony a ref in a yellow shirt advertising "SPECSAVERS!!!!!"

We had Delany at Falcons for 2 seasons and he was truly awful. It got the stage we were picking a 20yo academy prospect ahead of him as he was so bad.

I've never heard talk of Gopperth playing for England, although he is a much better player than Delany that's for sure.

Gopperth did state a while a back that he wished he had not been ruled out of playing for England

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/92771558/jimmy-gopperth-regrets-not-getting-opportunity-to-play-for-england-or-ireland


My main concern with Shields being selected is that we have had a number of players coming from Super Rugby with decent reputations who have not lived up to that - many who were (according to press) going to be in contention for England, Matt Symons being the most prominent example.

Shields may well be better than the current options available to England, but that should be worrying as despite recent comments he has never really threatened to feature for the ABs, even in extended squads during injury crises.

I think you could throw Piers Francis into that group also LT.

Its all a farce.

In the future there wont be an International fixture, it'll just become a glorified World Regional Club game.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That's where I imagine it becomes a bit annoying for the NZ fans. Even though Shields was unlikely to get capped, they saw him as theirs and he could be a possible future AB.

We've had the exact same thing with the Welsh (Moriarty, Francis, Ball, Charteris, Cracknell, Davies, Cuthbert etc), Scotland (Harris, Swinson, Dell, Harley, Watson, Wilson, Price, Taylor etc) and Ireland (Marmion and potentially Addison/Haley).

It's just something you've got to be pro-active about (us looking to cap Graham?) or just suck it up as it's completely within the rules.

We should play one Saxons fixture a year against a team with an A-team in a full A international and just cap all our dual registered players. Even if they're not the best available, just pick them. Play it on a training pitch if no-one is interested in watching it, but just get them tied in!

Speaking of which, as the Saxons haven't had a fixture in 2 years, it's a bit crazy that they're still our designated second team, and not the Under-20s. Designated second team is a basketcase of a rule in itself and needs sorting out.

While I have no problem with England playing the system (as every country except Argentina does), I would like World Rugby to come together and all agree to change - in the form of rewriting the rules. I don't think any Tier 1 nation is significantly better or worse for the eligibility rules, but they are a mess. They're poorly designed, poorly written and - as shown by Tahiti, the Spain/Romania farce, David Smith and even Granny-gate a few years back - they are poorly implemented.

You just wonder if there is appetite at the top for change. Everyone can see the issues, but no-one is fixing them.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:It’s a loss for the Hurricanes. Guns, we’ll just keep churning them out for the likes of you guys to cherry pick the duds with massive club offers and dubious national call ups.

Aside from Read not sure the ABs backrow scares any of the top teams. Bit of work to be done on the churning. Are Cane and Kaino not considered seat fillers in NZ? Holding the jersey until better players come along.

Its funny that they only become a dud when they decide they dont want to pay for the ABs. There is a big bad world outside NZ.

Is there? Heard about it...Well when are we going to see it then?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We had Delany at Falcons for 2 seasons and he was truly awful. It got the stage we were picking a 20yo academy prospect ahead of him as he was so bad.

I've never heard talk of Gopperth playing for England, although he is a much better player than Delany that's for sure.

Delaney was never AB material so thats not surprising.

robbo277 wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Thing is, Shields is eligible for NZ on residency grounds and England for parental grounds. It is HIS choice who he plays for. If that means he thinks it's more likely he'll get a cap playing for England then so be it. If it's within the rules, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

English Rugby clearly have an eye on him. Will he tour? Depends on the political situation i guess, but I reckon that it'll be all smoothed out by the end of the Premiership season before the playoffs start.

If Shields scores the winning try in the RWC Final allowing England to lift the trophy, would England fans be upset? I doubt it - he'd have become as English as a full cooked breakfast! Still, that's unlikely. The guy clearly wants to play rugby and like it or not he meets the criteria to play for this country. It is up to those in charge, not us. I don't like players being parachuted in, but our back row has been in dire need of a sort out since 2016. We need a proper 7, and Shields is an ideal 6 to assist the younger 7s and to give both Robshaw and Haskell a rest or even to replace them.

The point that some are making is that Shields is a product of the professional game in NZ.

In which case, Hartley and the Vunipolas are "ours" because they've only played professional rugby in England.

You can't cut it both ways.

Yes you can. We are not trying to get Hartley or Vunipola into our sides. Never would have. Thats the difference.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:If he was in NZ's plans, he'd of been picked years ago. He's 27 end of the day and has English parents, it's completely fine.

We've just had a similar situation at Falcons with Chris Harris, who at 27, has recently been capped by Scotland, despite being born and raised in England. If we'd have wanted him, he'd have been capped already.

Also a few years back, Tom Francis getting capped by Wales. Francis is English with English parents and a Welsh grandmother. End of the day, it happens to all nations, it's all within the rules.

Doesnt happen to us Sgt, at least not that I can recall, cant recall the last fully fledged non NZ playing overseas professional selected as an AB. Can you?