England - Summer Tour to South Africa

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Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

Dear God EJ, please don’t take Manu to SA. The poor man’s body can barely deal with club rugby, a 3 test pummeling in SA would just about do for him. I guess the last 10 minutes for the BaaBaas might keep his eye in, but personally I think England have been in the post-Manu era for some time.

LondonTiger wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:...The previous year, I don't think we had a Barbarians tour warm up before the Australian series, so this is the first time Jones has faced this particular schedule.

In 2016 we played Wales in that slot instead.

Cheers. Here was the squad:

England: Matt Mullan, Dylan Hartley, Dan Cole; Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes; Teimana Harrison, James Haskell, Jack Clifford; Ben Youngs, George Ford; Marland Yarde, Luther Burrell, Jonathan Joseph, Anthony Watson; Mike Brown. Substitutes: Tommy Taylor, Ellis Genge, Paul Hill, Dave Attwood, Matt Kvesic, Danny Care, Ollie Devoto, Elliot Daly.

I'm not sure Manu's form warrants inclusion.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So we have no locks...?

Will Witty? Calum Green, Sean Robinson...?

We have no fit backrowers do we?? Mark Wilson?? Will Welch?? Gary Graham??

I've excluded players from Exeter, Saracens, Wasps and Newcastle as they'll be involved in the playoffs. Losing semi-finalists could feature in theory.

In 2015-16, Leicester and Wasps were the losing semi-finalists. Cole, Launchbury, Haskell, Youngs and Daly were parachuted into the squad to play a full-capped game against Wales.

In 2016-17, Saracens and Leicester were the losing semi-finalists. Genge, Isiekwe and Earle all started against the Barbarians with McGuigan and Wigglesworth making up numbers on the bench.

There's nothing to stop him calling up losing semi-finalists, which would probably bring Exeter OR Newcastle AND Saracens OR Wasps players into contention. I would expect a few, but not loads. I think one of Launchbury/Isiekwe and one of Robson/Spencer could probably be added to the match day squad. If available, I wouldn't be surprised to see Billy Vunipola or Slade get a start either, and I could see someone like Harry Williams being drafted into the bench.

If Newcastle lose their semi-final, I'm not sure we'll see lots of Newcastle players parachuted into the squad, unless he's planning on touring them anyway. He hasn't called up many before, and it's unlikely he'd bring them in for one game and then discard them. If he was purely looking for bench fodder, he can call up players from lower clubs after this week and give them more chance to learn the calls etc.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not sure Manu's form warrants inclusion.  

If selected, you wouldn't be picking him on form. You'd be picking him on what he could do if he was on form and hopefully beginning his transition back into the team if he can string a run of games together. The squad is never picked on form alone, otherwise it would always be in flux.

Against the Barbarians, it's a chance to have a look at him slightly below test match intensity and see how he performs in this team. Eddie could also take him on tour and not pick him if he isn't looking good enough to start, instead just get him training with the team and then give him objectives for the start of the new season to force his way in by autumn, should he remain fit.

If he's fit enough to pull on a pair of boots, I'd always have him close to the England squad, even if he's not quite at the level to play test matches, because you want to help him get to the level where he is.

I understand a team isn't picked on form alone, but Manu has not had 2 consecutive good games in about 3 years.

Wilson, Graham and perhaps Hammersley and Witty have a chance of making a Barbarians squad.

Hammersley?
Sarge he isn't even my first choice falcons fb. I really think his progress has stinted. He was a breath of fresh air when he arrived on the scene with his running...he almost floated...now he just kicks and his running barely has any impact.

Witty, however is a man who could make the team for the Baa baas. Big guy, heavy duty carrier, good in the lineout, insane pace for such a big guy.

They would be silly not to look at him.

Well Michael Rhodes is eligible in July....just a few weeks too late Geordie

Bath have said they don't want Underhill to be selected for the summer tour.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2018/05/01/eddie-jones-warned-sam-underhill-still-broken-last-england-training/

Yet with the squad to face South Africa in a three-Test series due to be announced a week Thursday, Bath first-team coach Toby Booth says rushing Underhill back into action would be an unnecessary risk. “Sam has not even started training yet,” Booth said. “He’s still got a lot of work to do.

“He returned to us broken and he’s not set one foot on the training pitch. He’s still at the rehab stage so I’d imagine he’s got a long way to go yet. Everyone knows what international rugby is like and going away to South Africa is certainly not going to be for the fainthearted and the underprepared. You need to be at your best for those sorts of tours, so hopefully common sense prevails and they do what is right for England, for us and for Sam.

“He would have to accelerate [his recovery] a lot to do that. Our concern will be the welfare of the player, making sure that he can hit the ground running next season and that he doesn’t put himself in a threatening position because he is undercooked.

”

Sounds pretty sensible to me, if he's not even training yet then there's no way he'll be ready. More then likely he'd not be used and it'd be a waste or he'd be like Hughes or Vunupola and get injured straight off the bat as he's undercooked.

I think this should now highlight to the rfu that player management is top of the agenda. We will start seeing the farce that is international football creeping into Rugby. The main salary for the player is the clubs and they will start to put pressure on the player to say they are injured so that they can play at club level. This obviously will weaken squads. Alternatively the rfu and clubs bang heads together and actually take into account fans and players views to compromise on playing quotas mid winter breaks and a global international season. I'm going to guess first and say all logic would lead to the latter but the first option will become reality, well we wouldn't want their profit margins affected would we!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well Michael Rhodes is eligible in July....just a few weeks too late Geordie

Sarge are you trying to wind me up so early in the morning...

Im glad Booth has highlighted this point about Underhill.

Will Jones take any notice?

Rugby Fan wrote:Bath have said they don't want Underhill to be selected for the summer tour.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2018/05/01/eddie-jones-warned-sam-underhill-still-broken-last-england-training/

Yet with the squad to face South Africa in a three-Test series due to be announced a week Thursday, Bath first-team coach Toby Booth says rushing Underhill back into action would be an unnecessary risk. “Sam has not even started training yet,” Booth said. “He’s still got a lot of work to do.

“He returned to us broken and he’s not set one foot on the training pitch. He’s still at the rehab stage so I’d imagine he’s got a long way to go yet. Everyone knows what international rugby is like and going away to South Africa is certainly not  going to be for the fainthearted and the underprepared. You need to be at your best for those sorts of tours, so hopefully common sense prevails and they do what is right for England, for us and for Sam.

“He would have to accelerate [his recovery] a lot to do that. Our concern will be the welfare of the player, making sure that he can hit the ground running next season and that he doesn’t put himself in a threatening position because he is undercooked.

”

I just looked up the injury again - ruptured toe tendon. Not good. Not good at all. Can't help thinking about Wood and Haskell and the effect foot injuries have had on them.

It opens it up for someone to impress. Step forward shields and curry. Willis from the bench. What does need to happen though is should one or more impress they need the chance in the AIs.

I agree 7.5

If players on the fringe impress...they cant be slung off for the old favourites to come back in. They MUST be given a shot.

Dan Cole has been a warrior in that England TH spot. But we need an explosive player there now. Against us in the league...he trudged from one breakdown to another, and offered very little indeed.

I hope some one like Sinkler can make that spot his after a brutal display of TH play in South Africa....alongside Genge! Wow imagine that front row.

Both Genge and Sinkler need to learn how to reel it in a little, they'd be of bit of a worry starting together. I wonder if we can get a pack out of:

1. Marler
2. George
3. Sinkler
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Shields
7. T.Curry
8. Vunipola

16. LCD 17. Genge 18. Williams 19. ? 20. Willis

Perhaps a spot for Thomas the Tank for his 9 years service for his clubs it would be a nice touch.

emack2 wrote:Perhaps a spot for Thomas the Tank for his 9 years service for his clubs it would be a nice touch.

He isn't very good though is he. He is like a tubbier, older version of Nathan Hughes.

emack2 wrote:Perhaps a spot for Thomas the Tank for his 9 years service for his clubs it would be a nice touch.

No room for sentiment when smashing the Boks.

No point in wasting a spot on someone not available.

Looks like Billy is injured again...hamstring.

Happens with all the speedster s. Tight handstrong shouldn't keep him out for more than a week though .

Could Ben Morgan come back into contention?

Quality player. Should do. For me he is up there with vunipola while offering a different skill set. With a bigger carrier in the tight than Robshaw and more dog at 7 should work well.

Gary Graham looking pretty good Geordie and impressed with Wilson. Willis looked good too in a wasps side that forgot how to defend in the second half. Haven't seen the sale game yet to view curry bros. Newcastle impressed with their compete for everything and fight for every inch mindset. As regards Ben Morgan it's his overall contribution that's let's him down as he can go missing in games then go for a barn storming run. Saying that we could do alot worse.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Both Genge and Sinkler need to learn how to reel it in a little, they'd be of bit of a worry starting together. I wonder if we can get a pack out of:

1. Marler - Lions tour requires rest
2. George - Lions tour requires rest
3. Sinkler - Lions tour requires rest
4. Launchbury - Nothing to prove, will benefit from rest and full preseason
5. Itoje - Lions tour requires rest
6. Shields
7. T.Curry
8. Vunipola - Will not be match fit and will probably get broken again in a pointless exercise. Start afresh next season after full preseason.

16. LCD 17. Genge 18. Williams 19. ? 20. Willis

Take a young guns and old experienced lags squad and try to glean the most possible benefit from a very bad situation. Hopefully some of the bucks will show their hand?

Rest is the greatest prize this tour can offer and that will be won by not sending the players in the first place.

South Africa are looking fresh and will whip us whoever we send. So its best we try to negate the the effects of the defeats.....

Jones is very good at pulling sides together at short notice. He'll exceed in the situation.

I think england should comfortably see off south africa tbh. Room for bolter s but we can't send a saxons side

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think england should comfortably see off south africa tbh. Room for bolter s but we can't send a saxons side

This being based on what, exactly ?

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think england should comfortably see off south africa tbh. Room for bolter s but we can't send a saxons side

This being based on what, exactly ?

I think comfortably is pushing it, but I imagine we'll go in as favorites. SA have been a bit of a shambles for a few years now, it's not going to change overnight. Yes we had a bad 6N, but we beat SA at home not long ago and they didn't really offer that much. It's going to be an interesting tour for both sides, with a lot riding on it.

Yoda wrote:I think this should now highlight to the rfu that player management is top of the agenda. We will start seeing the farce that is international football creeping into Rugby. The main salary for the player is the clubs and they will start to put pressure on the player to say they are injured so that they can play at club level. This obviously will weaken squads. Alternatively the rfu and clubs bang heads together and actually take into account fans and players views to compromise on playing quotas mid winter breaks and a global international season. I'm going to guess first and say all logic would lead to the latter but the first option will become reality, well we wouldn't want their profit margins affected would we!

I think we have to safeguard against going through to the football model, and I think rugby has some advantages in this, but I don't think the Underhill issue is the same as in football where players play for their clubs until internationals come around, when a mysterious injury or "fatigue" rules a player out for the exact number of days required to miss the international fixture but still return to their club ready to play.

Underhill hasn't played in 2 months. If he hasn't been out on the training pitch either, then he's still a way from recovery, and probably shouldn't be playing. Even with a month to the first test, he'd have to go through a lot of work and wouldn't get that much game time beforehand to get up to speed.

Rugby is slightly different we have international release windows i.e. in rugby you get to the Six Nations and players are blocked out for 7 weeks for International duty, it would have to be some fake injury to rule you out for the whole tournament. Then you'd miss club games during the tournament anyway and comeback undercooked. The Six Nations is also a worthwhile competition in itself as well. If you want to miss the Six Nations, you may as well quit International Rugby full stop because it's obviously not for you.

Whereas in football you have players who are playing in the Premiership on a Saturday and then are being asked to take a week out to travel to Albania for a qualifier on Thursday before playing a friendly international on Monday and another Premiership game the following Saturday. A convenient hamstring strain can get you out of all that, allow you to continue playing for your club and then you can make yourself available for the World Cup or Euros in the summer.

One major issue is a lack of interest, probably because everyone plays everyone and countries like France, Germany, Portugal and Spain have to go through qualifiers against teams like Belarus, Andorra, San Marino and Lichtenstein. If they did a pre-qualification system, they could condense the system and create more meaningful fixtures and better matches.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Looks like Billy is injured again...hamstring.

Simmonds is the obvious option without Vunipola or Hughes, but you'd probably have to consider balance as he's not so much not like-for-like as he's the polar opposite.

Saying that, McCall hasn't ruled him out the play-offs, so he shouldn't be ruled out of England contention. I'd love to see him go to South Africa, but not if it puts him on the shelf for another 6 months. Hopefully the people looking after him take a long term view of the situation, especially 15 months out from a World Cup.

I'm not sure Simmonds is a good enough option at 8, especially in SA.

Based on the teams munkian.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Based on the teams munkian.

You've barely got one left

? Don't understand we've got some injuries yes but should be no problem putting out a team

No 7&1/2 wrote:? Don't understand we've got some injuries yes but should be no problem putting out a team

And potentially younger and more explosive...with a proper 7!

What are your thoughts on graham then gf. I know sarge is swooning but he seems more 6 and less of a breakdown operator than the currys.

I'm not swooning! Lol

He's a bit like a younger Haskell, but a better carrier. I really don't get the fuss over Ben Curry, looks pretty average to me. Tom looks a bit more handy (one who plays 6) but I'm not blown away.

Sorry. Swooning the other day at least! Currys just seem the best currently at protecting and contesting the breakdown. Tom a touch better in open play but both seem v good. I've had a more limited viewing.of graham but he looked 2nd best vs ben the other week at the breakdown. I'd rather have strength there and let graham battle with Robshaw shields and the emerging willis. Simmonds to battle for the 7 with currys.

I've seen Ben add very little as the breakdown the. Tom got a good turnover against Exeter...but neither are amazing. I just think Tom has a bit more about him. Is it Tom that is capped?

Yup. Rewatch the Newcastle game and.just watch what graham did vs ben. Graham was.excellent in the open bit was.miles behind ben. I suppose it's what you're looking for in a flanker though. And the makeup.of the rest of the pack of course.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What are your thoughts on graham then gf. I know sarge is swooning but he seems more 6 and less of a breakdown operator than the currys.  

I think Graham and Curry are very different players.

Graham is an aggressive physical 6.5 (even though I hate that term) who is confrontational in defence, in the rucks etc. he is an awesome carrier...both in traffic and in broken play. I would absolutely take him to SA if he was fit.

Curry x 2, I think are also quite aggressive, but more refined...showing a lot of intelligence. They seem able to read the game very well and offer good link play, alongside a rock solid defence (though I have seen both of them but thumping tackles in when required) and of course...they look very good at the breakdown.

With so many injuries etc...I would have no qualms playing:
6 Graham
7 Curry (Either of them)

That would offer a very good alround and aggressive flank combo...who also have good pace and fitness for the hard grounds.

Of Course...I would have mark Wilson in as a starter also...he's sublime. But that ship has sailed...

The Curry boys seem to keep getting lumped in together, they're quite different players. Tom is a better all round flanker imo. It must be quite annoying for the lads seeing things like:

7 Curry (Either of them)

Not having a dig GF, promise. I've just seen so much of this!

Annoying that a lot of people see them as the best 2 prospects at 7? I think they'd be quite proud!

If you want a limpet in the back row it's Willis, he's a pain in the arse to opponents. The wasps pack looked unbalanced when he went off and Haskell on against saints. In fact Gibson and him were having a great head to head. He contested the breakdown and always gets in strong positions. Pretty good at carrying and tackling. I can't see the curry hype either not yet anyway give it a couple of years and they will be very useful. I thought Graham looks good also but agree doesn't have the same breakdown ability as Wilson who also impressed. On a separate note wade didn't struggle defensively against Northampton and in the words of Austin healy "scored a try no one else could have." Could be a curve ball. At least he would be dangerous on the hard tracks of south Africa.

Wade is krap, can't defend and only scores try's - and he tackles as well.

Wade isn't really worth discussing, his faults surpass his strengths.

I'm sure the Curry's would rather be recognised individually rather than as a pair. Tom is currently superior to Ben for example.

They are recognised individually. Unless they're next to each other and then to be frank f knows.