England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

kingelderfield wrote:Wade is krap, can't defend and only scores try's - and he tackles as well.

So just like may then but more prolific and can actually put footwork in. He's got a better defense than Chris Ashton and May. Has worked on his defence and actually tackled really well even stopping the great George north on Sun. He's so crap that he's no where near the leading try scoring for the Prem

It pains me to say this about someone who will only turn 27 later this year, but Wade's time has gone, unless we have a change in coach in the very near future. It is a shame that, as he offers so much in attack (I remember with pleasure some stunning tries in Dublin a few years ago against Leinster), we never really got a chance to see whether he could replicate club form in England's white.

Gatland calling him up as a replacement in 2013, just before he would have earned his second test cap, harmed his career immensely I feel. With the injuries he then had that Autumn he was overtaken by other players in Lancaster's eyes. Jones has not I think included him in any training squads or on the Saxons tour a while back.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Wade isn't really worth discussing, his faults surpass his strengths.

I'm sure the Curry's would rather be recognised individually rather than as a pair. Tom is currently superior to Ben for example.  

A BBC sport poll was once asking for opinions on cricket. I can't remember what the exact question was, but it was with regards to England bowling options (who should come in for an injury). And I think one of the options you could vote for was actually "Jamie or Craig Overton". Didn't even bother splitting them out.

I think there is a tendency to lump them together. On one level it's fine to say that neither would look out of place at International level, but we can't just put them both in the squad and rotate them alternate matches. One (or neither) of them will have to become first choice because the only way that any young player is going to kick on at test level is test exposure.

I don't think may is a bad defender at all tbh. Wades issue has always been about placement. He's got better but in the meantime others have taken their chances.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think may is a bad defender at all tbh. Wades issue has always been about placement. He's got better but in the meantime others have taken their chances.

I have always been surprised by the lack of chances for Wade. I just think any attack coach would want him in their side. You'd think he might be called up to more squads, even if that doesn't translate to more caps, because he's too good going forward to just be completely ignored for pretty much his whole career.

What I don't get is England fans bemoan the lack of a really potent attack yet consistently dismiss wade who tops the defenders beaten, tries and gainline successes chart year in year out. Saying he can't defend is a little harsh if you have actually seen him this year. If 27 is past it then let's not bother with shields and Armand et al who are 27+. I don't think he's been given a fair crack of the whip. Was habana a great defender? Or Roko? I can remember the same rubbish being levelled at a certain diminutive winger by the name of Shane Williams, he wasn't bad for a small lad.

Wade can be targeted in defence, especially from the high ball. Coaches are not picking him simply because he's an easy target at the highest level.

May v Wade is not even a comparison for me. May is solid under the high ball and a good covering defender....look at the Argentina game where May pretty much covered 2 wings.

Fair enough for opinion on high balls but having watched wade alot he doesn't struggle that badly under the high ball at all. I think he brings a bit of attacking quality that is so hard to defend against. Physically he is more than capable and there's little more than he can do to change peoples' opinion, how we can tell if he stinks at international level until we give hither chance I don't know. There are other examples of other great players being overlooked because of the blind fixation of size in English rugby. Just look at the traditional view of backrow forwards, Neil back was the exception and look how that turned out. We shouldn't be too quick to dismiss players of smaller stature.

Anyway all this is pointless as Jones won't pick him unfortunately. Back to other ideas. Based on stats and performance over the year Armand has to start at six surely?

im pretty sure if Wade was any other nationality he would have been looked at for the national side. They just wouldn't ignore an attacking talent like that.

Englands problem is they focus too much on defensive weakness of a player, then moan about a lack of players with x-factor.

ironically though we're happy to bring in a foreigner called Solomona who has worse defensive skills than Wade, and isn't as good attackingly...and he gets fast tracked straight in to the side.

Its alarming to think Jason Robinson probably wouldn't be picked in the current climate!!

I don't see a huge difference between the two curry brothers (maybe a few subtle differences) , that's why I tend to group them together. And lets face it...they are not going to play 6 and 7 for England. They're both going for 7. I would agree with Sarge at the minute however that Ben looks the better player. He'd be my starting 7 in SA.

The thing is, rugby is a team game for all sizes. In other areas players cover for others who are weaker at some parts, Robshaw covers for a lot of the backrow, Cole is poor around the park but needed for his set piece so it's balanced out by guys like Mako, Ford is weaker at 10 so Faz and others help cover him, Brown deals with nearly all high balls. Wade's percieved weaknesses shouldn't omit him without at least a trial, he's too good, and with Brown at 15 the backline should be able to support him.

Agreed Georgie and yappy, it's annoyed me so much over the years that England coaches don't harness the attacking potency available and we have to watch hard working players with less skill plod around and squander 2-1 or run straight into contact etc. We also are laughed at for our conservative approach by other nations, not that this a reason to change. Looking back at the 2003 world cup squad it was players like back, greenwood, Robinson, lewsey (wasn't considered a regular until late on in the year), that made a huge difference and all had there selection doubts. Back was considered too small, greenwood was a maverick, many thought league player Robinson couldn't switch successfully and lewsey was considered just a good club player.

Watson nowell may. Rokoduguni. He's hardly been cast aside for rubbish players. These guys have taken chances. Wade may well have done from his only appearance. The lions came calling following a very good debut where he was linking wonderfully with Ben morgan and causing havoc. He then got a number of injuries keeping him out of squads and others impressed. It's still not as if our wings aren't stocked full.

We've got plenty of better wings than Wade, all with a more complete skill set. Wade just isn't good enough defensively and he's too small. It's not a coincidence he's never involved, it is what it is.

Most on here know my views regards one C Wade, but for those who don't, I was just storing the pot.
My opinion is that C Wade is the best English wing since the likes of Simpson-Daniel and Robinson.
Obviously actual rugby talent is worth jack these days.

Sorry think that's a total cop out saying he'd not good enough defensively and again too small without evidence and then to say hasn't got the skill set of a winger, nonsense. Just look at the stats that are relevant to a winger. The reason he had a good game for his one cap is because he's quality. Wing wise we have fairly good players but we could have a back line that is feared when attacking. Aled brew has been more influential than roko this season. To write him off after one great game as surplus to requirements is ridiculous. As for your list of far better wingers name them (eligible for England).

As stated we now have Nowell may Watson rokoduguni who have come in and shown they can produce at this level. When you have those proven wingers is there need to look elsewhere? You now also have a prolific wing who needs to work on defense and not being racist in solomona. And next season we'll hear all about lewington from beshocked.

And yes I think wades good. And yes were he a different nationality he'd have plenty of caps. But so would many others purely down to the amount of resources we have.

Yoda wrote:Sorry think that's a total cop out saying he'd not good enough defensively and again too small without evidence and then to say hasn't got the skill set of a winger, nonsense. Just look at the stats that are relevant to a winger. The reason he had a good game for his one cap is because he's quality. Wing wise we have fairly good players but we could have a back line that is feared when attacking. Aled brew has been more influential than roko this season. To write him off after one great game as surplus to requirements is ridiculous. As for your list of far better wingers name them (eligible for England).

I don't see how pointing out a players deficiency is a cop out. His defence is not good enough, it's that simple. The guy is tiny, Is there a smaller winger playing Int rugby now?

As for evidence he's small....He's listed at between 5'7 or 8. I didn't say he hasn't got the skill set of a winger either, I said there's players with a rounded skill set, as in they can defend.

Better wingers: May, Watson, Nowell, Roko, Daly, Solomona

If Wade could defend to the required level and was 4 or 5" taller, he'd have plenty of caps as he's pretty special ball in hand.

What so Shane Williams was too small to tackle have you actually seen him? You don't have to be massive to tackle. I would like to see the tackle percentage between wade and the others you listed.

And you don't select a team on stats....

To mention James Simpson Daniel in the same sentence as Jason Robinson is a bit confusing. Robinson was a phenomenon, a true freak of a player, the likes we never see again. JSD was an unfulfilled talent with major injury problems. For all his mercurial attacking talent, he was another who had issues with straight up defence and general positioning. I thought JSD was hugely overrated tbh, he seemed to improve as a player everytime he missed a training camp due to injury.

Yoda wrote:What so Shane Williams was too small to tackle have you actually seen him? You don't have to be massive to tackle. I would like to see the tackle percentage between wade and the others you listed.

You know defence is more than just tackling yea? Name a current top 10 side international winger or to make it easier....one in the last 5 years, that's as small as Wade.

I didn't mention jsd it was someone else. Solomona is a shocking defender anyway, may needs a clear run to score any and hasn't beaten as many players as wade in any season, Watson isn't a rock at the back and Nowell would just see the back of wades boots in a foot race. You don't need stats to select just watch them, plus you've shot yourself in the foot as you quoted a stat of "5'7" to basically discard him from England selection.

I wouldn't comment if I didn't watch them.

Your arguments don't stand up, I'm not sure what your point is. I wouldn't call a physical attribute a stat, so no, I've not "shot myself in the foot", whatever that means.

Are the things you've pointed out (Watson is not a rock at the back, Nowell is not as quick as Wade) suggesting that Wade is a better player than the guys? If so, you're not buying into why I think Wade is constantly omitted.

He's not at the minimum level defensively to be selected. The guy is 5'7", he's not big enough to compete at the highest level. He'd be a defensive liability.

Well that's your opinion he's actually not that much shorter than Nowell at 5'8" he in my opinion is a better than Nowell and on par with watson, scores more than him and beats more defenders though. I think you do know what shooting yourself in the foot means. He is not a defensive liability.
I just hope you are not involved with any level of Rugby coaching as you seem a little biased and conservative with your idea of good Rugby and the ideal rugby player. In recent history David lemi Shane Williams and daisuke ohata have excelled on an international rugby field two of them are the most prolific tries scorers ever. Hopefully as a rugby nation we can get away from such short sighted thinking.

Wades good but he's not the 2nd coming.

Nowell is 5'11", Wade is 5'7".

Attack the post, not the poster. To suggest I shouldn't be involved in coaching because I think Wade is not good enough defensively is completely irrelevant and quite insulting tbh. I suggest you stick to the rugby chat rather than the insults.

Forgot Daly as well in my posy earlier.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nowell is 5'11", Wade is 5'7".

Attack the post, not the poster. To suggest I shouldn't be involved in coaching because I think Wade is not good enough defensively is completely irrelevant and quite insulting tbh. I suggest you stick to the rugby chat rather than the insults.

Apologies I've reread message and it is too personal. Sorry again let's just agree to disagree and move on.

I'd have wade in the England squad though.....

In think Nowell is better suited to 13. He'll never be 1st choice winger for England.

Solomona is nowhere near as good as wade..( and that wasn't a racist opinion 7.5) purely my opinion that one foreign player who isn't as good as an English one in the same position was unjustifiably fast tracked into the ENGLISH INTERNATIONAL squad.

He scores a helluva lot. As does yarde actually. A guy also never seriously mentioned who has a great scoring record. Could it be that wade yarde and ashton were all told to work on defence and never improved to a sufficient extent?

All had injuries and drops in club form too, plus bans and other going ons

I'd take Yarde and Solomona above Wade personally.

That's the key point as I see it yappy. And it's the point in a lot of selections. When you get the chance you need to take it and have a bit of luck. Had gatland not selected wade to pad out a midweek game or wade not picked up the injury afterwards we may well be talking about Watson or someone else not having that chance. Or we may know definitely that wade was torn apart several times and he needs to work on defence.

I never had a problem with Yarde playing..he always played very well for England.

I'm keeping my mouth shut on this. Hopefully wade will continue to score loads for wasps and keep on beating defenders for fun. Yarde could be so good if he raised his effort levels 10% a great athlete.

Wing isn't necessarily the first place to fix though obviously, I still think he's going to pick conservatively for SA.

emack2 wrote:
When are the Squads announced for June tests?

England squad expected to be announced on Thursday, 10th May.

There's a lot of rumours Jason Woodward is going to get called up, that should please GF.

Vesty or ells apparently joining short term as attack coach for sa according to the beeb.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There's a lot of rumours Jason Woodward is going to get called up, that should please GF.

Woodward; Solomona, Manu, Te'o, Roko; ????, ?????; Mako, Hartley, Schonert; Lees, ?????; Armand, Shields, Hughes


Struggling slightly for half backs and locks - but that has the makings of a team to make GF completely tumescent.

You can have joe Simpson for scrum half.

Could throw in Jimmy Gopperth at FH who's eligible

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Could throw in Jimmy Gopperth at FH who's eligible

Nah as Gopperth has "moaned" before a couple of appearances for the Junior All Blacks ruled him out

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/92771558/jimmy-gopperth-regrets-not-getting-opportunity-to-play-for-england-or-ireland

yappysnap wrote:All had injuries and drops in club form too, plus bans and other going ons

Yeah Yardes attitude an training ethic was serioiusly questioned at Quins and left under a cloud. A talented player but stick in the Cipriani skip of didnt listen to the coaches soon enough and stop being a dick early enough in his career.
England arent in a position for wingers where they need to be picking purely on try scoring rates and risk affecting the work ethic ,culture and team focus in the squad by having a lazy player. He may be good enough to get away with it but having someone who thinks its OK to rock up late for training or go out drinking makes it that much harder to discpline those who arent so naturally gifted. Its going to be difficult to seledct a guy whos been openly critisized by and fallen out with a senior player / former captain without causing some issues in the camp.
The questions about Yardes attitude where there when he joined Quins, and were openly cited 4 year on when he left. You could colour me amazed if hes changed that dramamticaly whilst being at Sale, or at least been doing improved long enough to have a clean slate with Jones. Cirpiani convserley I feel really did show the last couple of years that hes fundamentaly changed, and also not having the media spotlight on him so much has undoutably helped. Its a shame it probably came 2 years too late for him to resurect his England career.


His try scoring record for England though was great, and in the few games hes played this season hes been back scoring again. At 26 hes still young enough to give England a few years. But really I dont see him as someone Jones will rush to select, even if you ignore the attitude issues Jones has favoured outside backs with all round footballing skills.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can have joe Simpson for scrum half.

Jones called up Willi Heinz to a training camp last year.

What I find just slightly ironic is that during games Yarde is extremely hard working, but he has this reputation for poor time-keeping etc.

Right now wing is not a position of weakness, so I agree he is unlikely to get a look in - especially with EJ looking so often at the younger players to see what they offer. Will be interesting to see what the moves do for Cokanasiga and Earle.

For what it is worth anyone know how Nowell went at 13 this weekend?

In this week's injury news, Billy Vunipola drops out of the Saracens matchday squad and it's revealed that Sam Underhill hasn't trained for Bath since his foot injury, putting serious questions over their involvement in South Africa.

Ben Youngs and Manu Tuilagi start again for Leicester, making it two starts in two weeks for the pair, and therefore potentially showing enough fitness for consideration.

A host of players missed out on playing in Gameweek 22, however whether these are injuries, players rested before the play-offs or just end-of-season squad rotation, I can't tell right now and will need to follow up on. One name who hasn't featured for a good few weeks is Harry Williams - does anyone have any news on him? Don Armand looks like he might have been a late drop-out for Exeter as well rather than a planned switch.

This is not a complete list of players who could tour, but my effort at picking the most likely candidates based on previous squad selections, noises in the media and some of the names touted on this thread.

W/E 06/05 update

OUT
Hartley - concussion
Kruis - ankle surgery
Lawes - knee ligament injury
Clifford - torn hamstring
Hughes - knee ligament injury
Joseph - foot injury (requires surgery)
Watson - achilles injury

Comeback trail
Ben Youngs - second start in two weeks
Manu Tuilagi - second start in two weeks
Billy Vunipola - not in the 23 after benching last week
Sam Underhill - hasn't trained since March

Tour possibles featuring in weekend's matches
Leicester: Genge, Cole, B Youngs, Ford, May, Tuilagi
Sale: B Curry, T Curry, Ross
Saracens: M Vunipola, George, Itoje, Isiekwe, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Lozowski
Gloucester: Woodward
Worcester: Te'o
Newcastle: Graham
Wasps: Launchbury, Haskell, Willis, Robson, Daly
Quins: Marler, Sinckler, Robshaw, Care, Smith, Brown
Exeter: Cowan-Dickie, Nowell
Bath: Dunn, Mercer
Hurricanes: Shields

Other tour possibles that did not feature
Ben Obano
Charlie Ewels
Harry Williams
Don Armand
Sam Simmonds
Henry Slade
Joe Marchant
Gabriel Ibitoye

I really hope both Curry brothers travel to SA. In differing ways they both add something that the back row is missing.

Ben is savvy around the breakdown and is a good link man, he could add some intelligence our forward play is lacking currently.

Tom is very dominant in contact, especially in the tackle. The change Underhill made to the fringe defence by dominating tackles rather than completing them was huge and Curry does similar in the tackle.

6.Robshaw, Shields, Armand
7.T Curry, B Curry
8.Vunipola, Simmonds, Mercer

That would be a good array of options to take to SA.

Swap shields for Willis and you've nailed it. Possibly Graham for the less good curry?

I've not seen Ben Curry mentioned, I imagine Tom will tour though (the better player in imo).