England - Summer Tour to South Africa

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Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

So many armchair coaches doubting Eddie, give the man a chance.

Fair enough rugby fan but I don't think there's enough games to assess that wider squad sufficiently.

I think it's quite a good squad with the exception of Earl, shields and redpath who we know little about. He's picked the best breakdown forwards available to us at the moment (prepared to be corrected). Could be massively wrong though and the breakdown still be a problem.

I guess it depends If you mean protecting our own ball or attacking the opposition. Wilson gives you a bit of both, Curry is clever at at attacking the ball and Billy helps with both. You look at the Jocks and they have a quick, intelligent back row.....do we have these players? Arguably Curry, although not at the level of Watson etc imo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I guess it depends If you mean protecting our own ball or attacking the opposition. Wilson gives you a bit of both, Curry is clever at at attacking the ball and Billy helps with both. You look at the Jocks and they have a quick, intelligent back row.....do we have these players? Arguably Curry, although not at the level of Watson etc imo.

Swings and roundabouts - (and most annoyingly tweaks in laws). Just over a year ago Watson was, barring a couple of furious little cameos, almost completely nullified alongside a scottish pack that was almost as embarrassed as a certain centre. Things did change over that year but I would be disappointed if the Scots beat us again for a while.

I'd tend to agree, it was one of those nights. The obvious unbalanced pack and numerous errors is hopefully something we won't see for a while.

Are you leading with wilson being our best flanker now pooly?

That's some spread sheet you've got there 7+
No one is seriously saying Jones's has an easy task, however he didn't read the change in tack that was so obviously signposted by; a the change in the Laws & b by the fall out from the Lions.
It wasn't rocket science and instead he's dug his heals in about an 'english' back row solution and other poor non/selections. I would say the former was a fundamental reason for the weak performances and losses.
So Jones is fair game. His remaining tenure should be heavily scrutinised and those with real say in the media should call him out.
All is not lost, however given the deadlines are so tight in any WC cycle, it is now very hard to see where we'll regain the wasted ground.
But hey the union don't give a fig......tickets sales mean bonuses.......

Can I say that its also a lot down to the tactics and nous of the whole pack.

The tactics in the 6n were to have minimum numbers at the breakdown most probably to create fast ball. The problem was that the opposite happened and we ended up losing the ball a ridiculous amount and Eddie (or the players themselves) didn't adapt and start putting more players in there. Having Ben Curry or anyone else wont mean jot if we go in with the same tactics.

Rugby fan I appreciate the excellent posting above.....my apologise as in my haste I didn't clarify my thought in that specifically I meant no two handers, no equal or joint etc. As opposed the appropriate DoR + head whatever coach/es; eg Woodwood + 3
So my mistake there and not a get out I assure you, but once again, great study from you.
As for the others.........

By the others I of course don't include GF:)
And yes very true, the coaching has been poor to rubbish since Italy 17
Now I like a curry or 2 as much as the next post imperial over privileged waster, but you're bang on, if things don't change from Jones et al, then nowt will be gained.

kingelderfield wrote: By the others I of course don't include GF:)
And yes very true, the coaching has been poor to rubbish since Italy 17
Now I like a curry or 2 as much as the next post imperial over privileged waster, but you're bang on, if things don't change from Jones et al, then nowt will be gained.

Hood to have you back just sagging off the coaches king. Felt strange you being a little quiet as jones and england equalled the tier 1 winning record picking up 2 titles. Still the next guy may pick your favourites eventually.

A lot of the 6Ns was down to tactics at the breakdown as GF has said and Eddie insisting on 3 locks. I think if you play two flankers and sort the tactics we'll straight away look far better.

yappysnap wrote:...I think if you play two flankers and sort the tactics we'll straight away look far better.

Robshaw, Haskell and Simmonds played against Ireland. It was a better balance but we still got outplayed at the breakdown, and our discipline remained poor. It's hard to think we didn't try to sort out the tactics during that three match losing streak but I'm unsure who would have had direct responsibility. Gustard runs the defence, and yet it seemed we got turned over on our own possession, which pointed towards confusion in attack. Is that what an attack coach helps with? I know it's a fifteen man game but I have the impression an attack coach spends more time with the backs, than coaching the breakdown. Can't imagine Ella had much input with our breakdown work in Australia.

I'm not sounding alarms about Jones. I explained my concerns about him at the time of his appointment, but he promptly did a lot of good things, so he's earned the right not to have us (me) bail on him as soon as things go wrong. I can't stop being annoyed, however, that we don't have a lot of games left to find all the answers we need.

Take that Ireland game. Jones put a better-balanced back row on the park but also dropped Ford. All Ford needed was a better platform, however, so we tried to solve one problem but then removed the major potential beneficiary. Indeed, we looked better once Ford came on but the score was already something like 21-5 or 24-5.

It often happens like that in rugby. A new midfield might not make an impact because a new scrum half kicks the ball away, or has a slower service than the man he replaced. With so few games left, if you try too many new combinations in one match, and things don't work out, then you are going to get less clarity on how everyone performed.

Jones said in an interview that it will get harder for any bolter to break into the squad after this tour, because there won't be enough matches to play them, to see if they can handle Test match rugby. However, Josh Lewsey didn't make it into the full England starting line-up until the 2003 Six Nations. His experience on the 1998 Tour of Hell was a distant memory, and his only other England involvement was Churchill Cup rugby while most first choice players were away with the 2001 Lions.

Lewsey was abe to show he could be trusted because he slotted in to a settled side. The same was true with Steve Thompson, who made his debut in the 2002 Six Nations. Hooker was a key position to be changing, albeit further out from the World Cup.

If our pack gets monstered in South Africa, then we aren't going to learn too much about any new combinations behind them. On the other hand, what if we do have a successful tour?  What if circumstances see us fielding a back row of Shields, Simmons and Vunipola, and they go well? Or Youngs and Cipriani link up well with a midfield of Farrell and Slade, and put Solomona in for a hatful of tries? That would be fantastic but you do wonder where that would leave planning for the Autumn internationals. Maybe that's a great problem to have, and yet it would still be a selection conundrum.

Jones selected a consistent core of players for two years, coverinng three Six Nations, a tour to Australia, and two rounds of Autumn internationals. He also had a Saxons tour, and Argentina tour to look at players outside his first choices. That was a lot of time to tinker around the core, bringing in players who had performed with the Saxons, or in Argentina, or bolters he had spotted.

Perhaps it just demonstrates that a coach needs to be in the job for longer than a four year cycle to build to a World Cup. Woodward could make a late inclusion like Lewsey because he knew his squad inside out. Jones didn't tinker with his team, because he felt it was more important to establish a record of success.

Agree with that RF.

But the winning run became a whole thing in itself and you can understand Jones not wanting to do anything to harm that. Losing 3 in the 6Ns isn't even much of an issue, as long as we learn from it.

Most of the team will be the same I imagine, with just a few selections.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are you leading with wilson being our best flanker now pooly?

I'm not sure where you get that idea from 7?? I think he's an excellent breakdown flanker but I can' really suggest he's our best option due to him not getting much game time Internationally. I personally think he's a very underrated player and could have amassed a bag full of caps if he played for a bigger club.

yappysnap wrote:Most of the team will be the same I imagine, with just a few selections.

In discussion with my nephew last night, we were trying to work out what the side for T1 would be - and ended up confusing ourselves.

If EJ picks his usual players we could well see:

Mako, George, Sinckler; Launchbury, Itoje; Robshaw, ??????, Billy; Youngs, Ford; Daly, Farrell, Te'o, May; Brown


Yet of that XV the second row is the only group I would actually bet on starting. Lord alone knows what the back row will look like, especially as there have to be doubts over Billy's fitness. I am desperate to see if Genge can make the step up - but pretty sure that he will not make the bench. Will Jones start Sinckler ahead of Williams? Will Farrell be at 12 or 10? Where will Daly play? Answers to these last two questions would have ramifications across the back line.

Rugby Fan wrote:

yappysnap wrote:...I think if you play two flankers and sort the tactics we'll straight away look far better.

Robshaw, Haskell and Simmonds played against Ireland. It was a better balance but we still got outplayed at the breakdown, and our discipline remained poor. It's hard to think we didn't try to sort out the tactics during that three match losing streak but I'm unsure who would have had direct responsibility. Gustard runs the defence, and yet it seemed we got turned over on our own possession, which pointed towards confusion in attack. Is that what an attack coach helps with?

You are right about the frustrating turnovers and that Ford did bring an attacking presence, enough to score three decent tries. The breakdown was alot better and the match stats reflect this lost 3 to Ireland's 4. Don't forget we were slightly unfortunate with the first try but that's tmo decisions, some you win some you lose. Ireland didn't have to work hard for the victory and could afford to sit back a bit hence the stats are skewed. I don't think we should hit the panic button.
ENG. IRE
Possession. 54%. 46%
Pens conceded. 11. 12
Rucks. 137(3). 107(4)
Tackles. 133 (20). 173(18) perhaps defense is actually the first priority?
Metres. 409. 287
Offloads. 5. 2
Line breaks. 8. 2. Usually a kpi for successful attack( provided the ball is not dropped!)

To be fair to Eddie all of his attempts at finding a seven and a balanced back row have been frustrated by injury. He got away with twenty odd victories without a very balanced back row and this compounded the problem when teams finally realised our weakness we were toast.

Under Jones we looked best at the breakdown when he had George Smith on board as an advisor.

I too wonder who has responsibility for this area of the game within the coaching team. At the moment we have a Forwards coach (who seems to be mainly a lineout specialist), a scrum coach, a defence coach (who is a former back rower) and an attacking coach (newly appointed) all working under strict control from Jones.

How are the responsibilities shared among these guys I wonder? Does the defence coach only worry about the times when the opposition have the ball and attack coach when we have it? There is potential overlap between all the coaches and it will be interesting to see how it gets resolved.

Surely these are things that happen at all levels of rugby coaching?? It can't be that hard to overlap when you're at the peak of the sport???

I remember us being at our best at the breakdown when we used to outmuscle sides. I recall the Aus tests, where Haskell and co just smashed Hooper and Pocock all game as soon as they got near a ruck. This just seem to disappear with the demise of Haskell actually.

I’m not sure losing to Ire was the real problem, they’re the best NH side this year. It was losing 3 and ending 2nd from bottom (ie. the champs to chumps fiasco). And Robskell/Simmonds may be a BR of BRers, but it was still one of the worst BR in this last 6N (both on the field and on paper). Plus a nation with about a dozen BRers who could make some case for the matchday squad should be able to field a better than average BR. Thank God in addition to the dozen we can now select foreign players . Two championships in a row buys EJ much credit, but a 5th puts him in line for a slap or two. I think we’ve really missed Billy big-time, and if he gets broken again after being rushed back for a tour of SA there’ll be hell to pay. Plus most of the other NH sides have improved. My complaint would be EJ has rested on his 1st 2 successful seasons too much and been too slow to look to develop some key areas like the BR, centres, SH and hooker IMO.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Surely these are things that happen at all levels of rugby coaching?? It can't be that hard to overlap when you're at the peak of the sport???

Oh I fully agree.

Quick question. I fully understand that Billy is an awesome player and any team would miss him, but do you think England have become a bit reliant on him, and Eddie has struggled to implement an effective non Billy game plan?

From an Irish perspective I know sexton is vital to us, but I'm no longer scared that we will fall apart without him.

I somewhat think that we've been too quick to put it all on Billy's absence, he's obviously a huge loss given what he brings, but I don't think having a fully fit Billy would have got us to beat Ireland

(I'll get flamed, but I do think his presence would have been enough to beat Scotland/France)

The breakdown issues can't be fixed just by having him in the side, even if it is much easier to secure your own ball when Billy has taken the gainline 5m further forward

I honestly think this happened at the right time for England. Two years of good results papered over a few deficiencies. He was guilty of complacency and I'm glad we had this speed bump now rather than the world cup, so thank you Scotland France and Ireland. I've also stated previously that most of our injuries happened to backrow only so no wonder we could instantly cover injuries with suitable quality with international experience.

BamBam wrote:I somewhat think that we've been too quick to put it all on Billy's absence, he's obviously a huge loss given what he brings, but I don't think having a fully fit Billy would have got us to beat Ireland

(I'll get flamed, but I do think his presence would have been enough to beat Scotland/France)

The breakdown issues can't be fixed just by having him in the side, even if it is much easier to secure your own ball when Billy has taken the gainline 5m further forward

I really hope Billy gets fixed because he is a pretty special player, but do wonder sometimes if he's turned into a Tuilagi mk 2.

7 I suggest you take more water with it

With what?

Eddie Jones made a comment after The 6n that they had delibetately tried some different things this 6n and will learn from them. If that is the case and we turn up in SA a different beast then hey..it was worth the trial. If however we turn up in SA and play the same tripe...then the alarm bells start ringing.

I still think Simmonds would be a big player this tour with his pace, tackle count and work rate.

I will be interested to see where he's deployed. There's some 6s lining up now. Could be at 7 which jones has pushed or mainly from the bench? Missed the normal use of impact from the bench in the 6ns which he could provide in spades.

Pooly just reading between the lines of your posts. You feel Robshaw is overrated the new 7s now as good as wilson etc and have pushed him for a good while. Trying to work out who you would rate above him, haskell?

I really don't know what you mean 7. I only mentioned the breakdown when suggesting other 7's. Robshaw brings different qualities, such as his reading of the game and his handling which is very good. If you focus just on the breakdown, there's better options than Robshaw, but there's obviously more then that.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I really don't know what you mean 7. I only mentioned the breakdown when suggesting other 7's. Robshaw brings different qualities, such as his reading of the game and his handling which is very good. If you focus just on the breakdown, there's better options than Robshaw, but there's obviously more then that.

Apart from, y'know, decisions to kick to the corner...

munkian wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I really don't know what you mean 7. I only mentioned the breakdown when suggesting other 7's. Robshaw brings different qualities, such as his reading of the game and his handling which is very good. If you focus just on the breakdown, there's better options than Robshaw, but there's obviously more then that.

Apart from, y'know, decisions to kick to the corner...

The kick to corner was fine, the problem was who decided to throw it to the front of the line out and drive towards the corner flag?

Fair enough pooly.

TightHEAD wrote:

munkian wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I really don't know what you mean 7. I only mentioned the breakdown when suggesting other 7's. Robshaw brings different qualities, such as his reading of the game and his handling which is very good. If you focus just on the breakdown, there's better options than Robshaw, but there's obviously more then that.

Apart from, y'know, decisions to kick to the corner...

The kick to corner was fine, the problem was who decided to throw it to the front of the line out and drive towards the corner flag?

It was a dammed if you do dammed if you don't moment, to be fair.

Unfortunately Robshaw being the bloke he is took responsibility of course and called the lineout to himself. Which also unfortunately was predictable.

Rugby Fan wrote:

yappysnap wrote:...I think if you play two flankers and sort the tactics we'll straight away look far better.

Robshaw, Haskell and Simmonds played against Ireland. It was a better balance but we still got outplayed at the breakdown, and our discipline remained poor. It's hard to think we didn't try to sort out the tactics during that three match losing streak but I'm unsure who would have had direct responsibility. Gustard runs the defence, and yet it seemed we got turned over on our own possession, which pointed towards confusion in attack. Is that what an attack coach helps with? I know it's a fifteen man game but I have the impression an attack coach spends more time with the backs, than coaching the breakdown. Can't imagine Ella had much input with our breakdown work in Australia.

I think you need your attack to be setting better targets than we have been. So that's having a coherent pattern of play so your back row know where to go and getting over the gainline to give them the best chance. Your attack coach is responsible for getting the players in position. It's then the forwards coach's job to make sure you know what you're doing when you get there!

Absolutely.

SA injury news:

Etzebeth, Lood, Whitley, Lambie and Marx unlikely to feature in the series.

That's a shame as I'd love to see the look on Etzebeths face when they lose the guy is a pillock.

Will Greenwood has chosen his ideal team for test 1:
15 Elliot Daly; 14 Denny Solomona, 13 Henry Slade, 12 Owen Farrell (c), 11 Jonny May; 10 Danny Cipriani, 9 Dan Robson; 1 Mako Vunipola, 2 Jamie George, 3 Harry Williams, 4 Joe Launchbury, 5 Maro Itoje, 6 Jack Willis, 7 Tom Curry, 8 Billy Vunipola.

He made a valid point about keeping Club 9-10 partnerships going. Also has the two youngsters in the team.

Willis looks done for the season now. Knee injury

So Robshaw and Curry on the flanks.

I don't think Willis would have played much tbh. Shields will play more and hopefully Armand is back in contention. Gutted for Willis but he is young and will be an England starter very soon I hope.

Quins want Gustard, and have approached the RFU about releasing him.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/44185828

Woodward lost John Mitchell in 2000, and Brian Ashton in 2002, so coaching turnover is not unheard of. Still, the game has moved on a lot since 2003. Wonder if the loss of Gustard would make Jones less likely to make a permament attack coach appointment. He'll need to add someone to his team, and might prefer just to replace Gustard, rather than adding two new full time staff.

Wonder who is in the market to be an international defence coach? Can't see Farrell or Edwards wanting to switch Test teams at this stage. Wonder if that's something Mallinder would be any good at (thinking about who is available). Can't see many Premiership sides wanting to lose someone but I suppose the question is more who would want the job. Jones might well feel, having lost an Englishman, that he's free to appoint anyone he wants. He recently said that his priority is winning the World Cup, not grooming England coaches.

Incidentally, Steve Hansen has said that Brad Shields would have worn an All Blacks shirt this year, if he's stayed in New Zealand. Probably not wrong, given the squad he has just announced.

EDIT: Hansen has been given a bit of mild stick on twitter for saying that, including from some New Zealanders. I can understand that he might want to send a message to any others who might be thinking of moving overseas but he had plenty of oppotunities to secure Shields with a cap, or say something to keep him on the hook.

Gustard will be in South Africa, and then go to Quins.

Guardian mentions Brad Davis as a possible candidate.

Ashton is playing for the baa baa s this week then.