England - Summer Tour to South Africa

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Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

Shaun Edwards needs a new challenge, but will the RFU go for him?


Apparently he went for the Quins job too.

Interesting to hear some pundits and fans now suggesting it was an error not to keep Andy Farrell in the coaching team. Seemed at the time he was released, that Farrell was being bagged for dominating Stuart Lancaster, pushing for Sam Burgess to be in the World Cup squad, and unfairly favouring his own son. Wouldn't have been easy for Jones to ignore that kind of scuttlebut coming from so many sources.

At some point, we might want to consider the possibility that it's not helpful to view coaches and players through a messiah/antichrist prism, as if no other characterisation is possible, and  no-one is capable of any form of development.

Genuinely don't know who is a good defence coach but players tend to speak well of people with strong inspirational qualities, as well as those who can scare the bejeezus out of you.

Ireland's gain. Farrell definitely played a part in the grand slam and smash and grab in Twickers.

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland's gain. Farrell definitely played a part in the grand slam and smash and grab in Twickers.

It was Ireland's gain. The RFU had plenty of time to make a judgement on what kind of coach Farrell was. Robinson, Ashton, Johnson and Lancaster were all asked to work with coaches from previous set-ups, so it wasn't out of the question to ask Jones to do the same.

35 man squad for this weekend:

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/england-name-squad-ahead-barbarians-fixture/?sf189977034=1

Interesting to see Cipriani listed amongst the back 3 players.

Agreed LT, it is interesting. Could be with a lack of genuine options at 15 Jones genuinely sees him as an option there, or it might be that he wants him in that 22 shirt and is looking for some versatility I'm him.

I'd like to see a 23 of:
Genge, ???, Sinckler, Launchbury, Beaumont, Robshaw, Curry, Hughes
Youngs, Ford, May, Te'o, Daly, Solomona, Cipriani
???, Marler, Hill, ???, Wilson, Robson, Smith, Brown

Not too fussed what way he goes at hooker or which sub lock he uses, because they're just fill-ins.

Genge and Sinckler should give is some impetus in the front row. Launchbury brings experience to am inexperienced tight 5.

I've gone with as close as we can get to our strongest back row as this area still has a question mark. If Vunipola doesn't make the tour, that could be our first test back row. Wilson offers a change up at flanker and Beaumont can slide back to give Hughes a spell if he's not 80 minutes fit.

I've gone with an experienced backline with a couple of experiments in there. I'd bring on Robson and Brown early on in the second half for the Leicester pair and shift Cips to 10. Daly at 13 could be an interesting one, especially with Joseph and Manu out. Smith I'd be looking at giving a few minutes to.

Gustard spoke on the BBC rugby podcast with Chris Jones and Ugo Monye. He explained that he's had ambitions to be a head coach, and the Quins job was too good an opportunity to turn down. Asked by Monye whether he has looked at other jobs before, he repled "it's the first one I've accepted". Monye also asked him whether being able to spend more time with his family was a factor, and Gustard said it would be a nice bonus but not the deciding factor.

He denied he'd fallen out with Eddie Jones, saying that Jones offered him his first opportunity to get into coaching at Saracens, and he's learned a lot from working with him and enjoyed doing so. Gustard said the Quins job came up very recently, and the whole process happened quickly. He did speak with Jones about taking the job, and he didn't stand in his way (don't think that necessarily translates as encouraging him)

I take his comments at face value. A lot of pundits suggesting this is an unprecedented turnover of coaches, seem to have forgotten that Clive Woodward lost both John Mitchell and Brian Ashton in his last World Cup cycle.

I've had a crack at some of Jones' decisions buit it's still been a surprise to see how many journalists want to use the Gustard news to stick the knife in. On the Times rugby podcast, some claimed it was a disgrace that Jones denied knowing anything about the possibility of Gustard leaving. I really don't see that. The media can hold the England set-up to account without pearl-clutching when someone doesn't want to say anything about ongoing contract negotiations.

There is a question over whether Gustard should go to South Africa. In an ideal world, his replacement would tour. However, even if you identified a suitable candidate in time, it's questionable how effective he could be at this stage. Gustard has been holding the training sessions for the Barbarians, so there's more continuity if he goes.

Gustard is obviously a talented guy but I don't necessarily see changes to coaching staff as a bad thing. The new guys or girls in need to be good but a fresh approach can often bring dividends.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gustard is obviously a talented guy but I don't necessarily see changes to coaching staff as a bad thing. The new guys or girls in need to be good but a fresh approach can often bring dividends.

You don't think a change of coaches a year before a RWC are an issue ?

As I suggested above I think it's an issue if the quality of coach you bring in is poor.

Something is rotten in the England camp and it rhymes with Beddie Bones.

Ok. Something is wrong with wales and it rhymes with fatland? ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ok. Something is wrong with wales and it rhymes with fatland? ?

Yeah it makes no sense does it. I thought that's what we were going for now?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah it makes no sense does it. I thought that's what we were going for now?

You can go for what you like kiddo.

I'm obviously suggesting that Eddie's management style is wearing thin as it has in pretty much every role hes been in.

Because someone wanted to be head coach yes. So the fact that Wales defence coach went for the same job and didn't get it means that Gatland is wearing thin. See. Stupid isn't it. Ironically it is wales and gatland who would really benefit from some fresh ideas.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because someone wanted to be head coach yes. So the fact that Wales defence coach went for the same job and didn't get it means that Gatland is wearing thin. See. Stupid isn't it. Ironically it is wales and gatland who would really benefit from some fresh ideas.

And England wouldn't ? Here's one, try only playing 2 locks at a time.

Wow. Full circle there backing my post. Cheers.

Jack Willis ruled out for up to a year. A real shame, poor lad.

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gustard is obviously a talented guy but I don't necessarily see changes to coaching staff as a bad thing. The new guys or girls in need to be good but a fresh approach can often bring dividends.

You don't think a change of coaches a year before a RWC are an issue ?

Firstly, the plan obviously wasn't to lose Gustard at this stage. But I think all too often we can get stuck in 4-year thinking mode, because of the World Cup cycle. It doesn't take 4 years to build a team or to coach a defence.

We often see a new coach "bounce", case in point Eddie Jones coming in and winning a Grand Slam with a bunch of "world cup flops". Gregor Townsend's first 6 Nations has seen Scotland's best tournament and finish in years etc.

As 7.5 says, if a good defence coach comes in, then there's no reason why we have to step backwards losing Gustard.

If there really is something rotten in the England camp (and I don't think that Gustard leaving is evidence of this) then I think we'll probably step backwards. But Gustard leaving alone isn't enough to worry me, it just depends what comes next.

Brad Davis of Ospreys is being talked about in the media as a favourite to come in. Stuart Barnes on Twitter and in the Sunday Times is talking up Ronan O'Gara (I guess kinda combining the vacant attack and defence roles), but whether that's a serious possibility or a "wouldn't it be fun if..." I'm not sure - I haven't read his full article because of the paywall.

Fluxy wrote:Jack Willis ruled out for up to a year. A real shame, poor lad.

Ah your kidding? What a shame.

What's George Smith doing again? Cant we have him and Glen Ellia back on board - but in a more permanent role?

propdavid_london wrote:What's George Smith doing again?  Cant we have him and Glen Ellia back on board - but in a more permanent role?

He's playing S15 and still looking pretty good!

propdavid_london wrote:What's George Smith doing again?

Playing Super Rugby for the Reds

That Wasps no.7 shirt seems cursed. Tom Rees and Sam Jones never got their international careers underway. Willis can recover but that's a tricky injury.

Really big shame for Willis, was looking forward to seeing him at the next level (mind you he probably wouldn't have got that much game time). A 12 month layoff is horrendous though, he will be in danger of being overshadowed by his younger brother Tom, at that point!

Never head of McInally, what is he like? 6ft 7in and 20 stone+ suggests he is quite hefty!

Would love to see Genge and Sinkler line up together in this match, the pressure is off them somewhat. Singleton or McGuigan could complete a powerful and mobile front row. To be honest, wouldn't mind see a completely youthful/ fresh team for this match. Want to look at some fresh blood in the back-row too, by getting Ellis, Curry and Mercer involved at some point. Would start Mark Wilson, of course!

I'd echo that genge and sinckler is something I'm eagerly anticipating. Yes theyre both in the mold of new props with high work rates and great carrying.but I genuinely think they're our best scrummagers as well. Fingers crossed genge takes to it like a duck to water and sinckler continues.

Who is McInally?

Just reading about McInally...he had heart surgery 5 months ago for a stroke caused by a hole in the heart???

robbo277 wrote:

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gustard is obviously a talented guy but I don't necessarily see changes to coaching staff as a bad thing. The new guys or girls in need to be good but a fresh approach can often bring dividends.

You don't think a change of coaches a year before a RWC are an issue ?

Firstly, the plan obviously wasn't to lose Gustard at this stage. But I think all too often we can get stuck in 4-year thinking mode, because of the World Cup cycle. It doesn't take 4 years to build a team or to coach a defence.

We often see a new coach "bounce", case in point Eddie Jones coming in and winning a Grand Slam with a bunch of "world cup flops". Gregor Townsend's first 6 Nations has seen Scotland's best tournament and finish in years etc.

As 7.5 says, if a good defence coach comes in, then there's no reason why we have to step backwards losing Gustard.

If there really is something rotten in the England camp (and I don't think that Gustard leaving is evidence of this) then I think we'll probably step backwards. But Gustard leaving alone isn't enough to worry me, it just depends what comes next.

Brad Davis of Ospreys is being talked about in the media as a favourite to come in. Stuart Barnes on Twitter and in the Sunday Times is talking up Ronan O'Gara (I guess kinda combining the vacant attack and defence roles), but whether that's a serious possibility or a "wouldn't it be fun if..." I'm not sure - I haven't read his full article because of the paywall.

You'd think though, if he genuinely believed that England could win the World cup then why wouldn't he stay ? Its only a year, win the thing and everyone will want you as a coach, Quims are hardly a big draw at the moment.

If he wants to be head coach at a Premiership club, given he's London based there aren't too many options

Quins with the NZ partnership, location, current and academy squad are probably one of the biggest draws in the coaching market in England

Its not ideal but I can understand it from an ambition point of view

Well the head coach of a top AP side, based in London, with a big budget......is a huge draw!

I'd be surprised if any assistant in the home nations wouldn't jump at the chance of being DOR/Head coach at a major side. With Edwards also been in the mix, it shows you the appeal it has.

I don't think it's a major drama at all Gustard leaving from any point of view.

We'll find a replacement, its only defence coach.

John Wells was moved to our defence coach and he did a decent job.

munkian wrote:You'd think though, if he genuinely believed that England could win the World cup then why wouldn't he stay ? Its only a year, win the thing and everyone will want you as a coach, Quims are hardly a big draw at the moment.

The Quins job is one of the only top Premiership postss likely to be available in the near future. It's also London-based, which means Gustard can go home and see his kids. He said he moved for the rugby challenge but that's bound to be an attraction. Almost every other top rugby job would mean a long commute, living away from home, or uprooting the family to move somewhere else.

Saints, London Irish and Worcester have all recently made appointments. O'Connor, Ackermann and Blackadder have had mixed starts at their respective clubs, but they will all likely get another full season, and could easily get longer. Wasps, Exeter, Saracens, Newcastle and Sale have relative stability, while Bristol have only just starting under Pat Lam. If they stay up, then he probably keeps his job.

The most likely reason for a job to open up is if a club get relegated, or the money runs out. You might think twice about taking a job in either circumstance.

Seen in that light, Quins is actually a rare opportunity for an ambitious coach. After all, Shaun Edwards also threw his hat in the ring.

BamBam wrote:If he wants to be head coach at a Premiership club, given he's London based there aren't too many options

Quins with the NZ partnership, location, current and academy squad are probably one of the biggest draws in the coaching market in England

Its not ideal but I can understand it from an ambition point of view

However we still know nothing about this NZ partnership! Would that mean that Gustard wouldn't be able to replace Nick Evans if he wanted to?
I feel as if a new head coach - or whatever role he has should be able to select his own team, as it wasn't just John Kingston that had a mare last season (however, he was the more experienced)

So team for first test in SA...

1 Genge
2 Dunn / LCD
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Launchbury
6 Robshaw
7 Curry
8 Simmonds

9 Robson
10 Ford
11 May
12 Slade
13 T'eo
14 Nowell
15 Brown

propdavid_london wrote:...However we still know nothing about this NZ partnership!  Would that mean that Gustard wouldn't be able to replace Nick Evans if he wanted to?

We may not know, but Gustard must have got answers which satisfiied him.

munkian wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

munkian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gustard is obviously a talented guy but I don't necessarily see changes to coaching staff as a bad thing. The new guys or girls in need to be good but a fresh approach can often bring dividends.

You don't think a change of coaches a year before a RWC are an issue ?

Firstly, the plan obviously wasn't to lose Gustard at this stage. But I think all too often we can get stuck in 4-year thinking mode, because of the World Cup cycle. It doesn't take 4 years to build a team or to coach a defence.

We often see a new coach "bounce", case in point Eddie Jones coming in and winning a Grand Slam with a bunch of "world cup flops". Gregor Townsend's first 6 Nations has seen Scotland's best tournament and finish in years etc.

As 7.5 says, if a good defence coach comes in, then there's no reason why we have to step backwards losing Gustard.

If there really is something rotten in the England camp (and I don't think that Gustard leaving is evidence of this) then I think we'll probably step backwards. But Gustard leaving alone isn't enough to worry me, it just depends what comes next.

Brad Davis of Ospreys is being talked about in the media as a favourite to come in. Stuart Barnes on Twitter and in the Sunday Times is talking up Ronan O'Gara (I guess kinda combining the vacant attack and defence roles), but whether that's a serious possibility or a "wouldn't it be fun if..." I'm not sure - I haven't read his full article because of the paywall.

You'd think though, if he genuinely believed that England could win the World cup then why wouldn't he stay ? Its only a year, win the thing and everyone will want you as a coach, Quims are hardly a big draw at the moment.

Depends what he sees as a draw. An easy ride - no, but I don't think a man like Gustard necessarily wants that. A unique challenge, a team of previous quality that has waned but has all the current and future players of potential to come back, with a LOndon base, England representation, a strong academy and unique deal with New Zealand? Something so broken down right now that he can reshape it as he wants a rugby side to be, a real chance to imprint his style and identity that Eddie Jones will never give his coaches? Most rugby coaches with self-respect would rather see that challenge than slot into a currently successful outfit, surely?

GeordieFalcon wrote:We'll find a replacement, its only defence coach.

John Wells was moved to our defence coach and he did a decent job.

Just don't pick Nick Easter

Not sure if you discussed the statement from Hansen that if Shields hadn't picked England he would be in the NZ squad. We all know that is a load of rubbish as Piatiu was a 20 cap AB in his prime who was leaving in a year and was told get lost we don't want you we are not doing the year extension you want. NZ are now seeing they need to cap players who are nearly there for a game or two to give them hope to stay and become an AB or lose people who aren't going to make it unless injuries happen and then have a drop off in players brought in.

As much as I don't like the Jones attitude sometimes Hansen seems to be the worse of Gatland and Jones combined.

Hope Shields does well but think others in England are just as good when taking into account the knowledge of players and set up of having played in England

GeordieFalcon wrote:So team for first test in SA...

1 Genge
2 Dunn / LCD
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Launchbury
6 Robshaw
7 Curry
8 Simmonds

9 Robson
10 Ford
11 May
12 Slade
13 T'eo
14 Nowell
15 Brown

Farrell will surely play as skipper

GeordieFalcon wrote:So team for first test in SA...

1 Genge
2 Dunn / LCD
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Launchbury
6 Robshaw
7 Curry
8 Simmonds

9 Robson
10 Ford
11 May
12 Slade
13 T'eo
14 Nowell
15 Brown

Nowell not on squad I think not Dunne, mako would start along with Farrell. First up he will go with established players then go from there, introducing the less experienced from the bench. Has he named a replacement for Jack Willis yet?

Good point, Nowell not in squad.

All papers suggesting Hughes will replace Willis, but seen nothing official.

Hughes would need a bit more gametime before getting dropped back into the England squad. Looked pretty rusty in Wasps semi final

propdavid_london wrote:Hughes would need a bit more gametime before getting dropped back into the England squad.  Looked pretty rusty in Wasps semi final

When did that ever bother Eddie?

The backrow would be too lightweight Billie at 8 Simmonds on the bench , Farrell at 12

Fixed

1 Genge
2 Dunn / LCD
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Launchbury
6 Robshaw
7 Curry
8 Simmonds

9 Robson
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Slade
14 Earle
15 Brown

How fit is Billy...after his long layoff.

With Ben Ryan named as an option for the Quins job and rather successful in a number of roles, is it worth involving him in the England set up?

As for the SA 1st match, i’d like to see some experimentation between T1 and T2 (esp if we win T1) but would plump for (deliberately resting several first choice players who frankly after several long seasons, v little break, worked hard by their clubs with some playing non-stop for England and/or having Lions call ups- we need to manage them better and it is worth losing a test in SA to do that, but also we won’t lose):

15- Daly (nobody named him above, but I don’t think he’s injured? We need to rest - and quasi-drop-Brown to get him fighting for his place, rejuvenated and explore other options for te future)
14- Earle
13- Slade
12- Lozowski (Farrell NEEDS a rest)
11- May
10- Ford (would consider Cips)
9- Robson
8- Billy if completely fit, Simmonds if not
7- Curry
6- Wilson (Robshaw due a rest, Shields needs to earn his place)
5- Launchbury
4- Itoje (rest in T2 and 3 for Isiekwe)
3- Williams (swap with Sinck in next match)
2- George (?rest in T2)
1- Marler (rest in T2)

Genge, LCD, Sinckler, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Youngs, Teo, Cipriani

He looked pretty good in the first half last week. Another good test will be the final this Saturday. If he can get another half or 60mins at the same level then I think Eddie will parachute him back into the starting line up.
The sensible option would be for him to start his first intentional coming back from the bench, but as hinted above - Eddie doesn't normally do what's expected.