England - Summer Tour to South Africa

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Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

ChequeredJersey wrote:With Ben Ryan named as an option for the Quins job and rather successful in a number of roles, is it worth involving him in the England set up?

Ryan has said he prefers to be a big picture guy, looking at creating high performance environments. Depending on how Quins see the role of General Manager, I think his hat is still in the ring for that job.

We're never going to go into T1 with an experimental side. We know Eddie by now, he'll make a few tweaks to his favoured line-up. I expect to see:

1. Mako
2. George
3. Sinkler
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Robshaw
7. ?
8. Billy

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Farrell
13. Te'o/Slade
14. May
15. Brown

Curry. Going to time you from now to see how long it takes you to acknowledge how good one and preferably both of them are pooly!

I think he wil select Robshaw at 7 and shields at 6, don't know why but my gut feeling I suppose. I also think at some point within the three matches we will see Simmonds at seven.

Yoda wrote:I think he wil select Robshaw at 7 and shields at 6, don't know why but my gut feeling I suppose. I also think at some point within the three matches we will see Simmonds at seven.

I hope you are wrong on the former and right on the latter.

Pooly, We probably will use an experienced side for T1 but we can’t keep flogging the likes of Farrell

You know he will CJ....he wants to win.

I rate Tom Curry 7, Ben not so much. Just not sure he's good enough to start against the boks. I'd possibly start Wilson to match the physicality and bring on Curry in the 2nd half.

Yoda wrote:I think he wil select Robshaw at 7 and shields at 6

When does Shields hook up with the squad? If he doesn't have much time before the first Test, then it would be daft to have him starting.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Yoda wrote:I think he wil select Robshaw at 7 and shields at 6

When does Shields hook up with the squad? If he doesn't have much time before the first Test, then it would be daft to have him starting.

Hadn't thought about that. Am I right he didn't play in the last round of the super Rugby champ? Either way it's not ideal as he has zero time to learn the moves etc. We are not blessed with backrow options as they keep getting injured so I'm guessing he's going to play more than originally intended.

Shields came on as a sub at the weekend...think it was Friday.

This is not the tour or time to absokutely smash the players in to the ground.
He has to manage the players well on this tour watching their game time

propdavid_london wrote:He looked pretty good in the first half last week.  Another good test will be the final this Saturday.  If he can get another half or 60mins at the same level then I think Eddie will parachute him back into the starting line up.  
The sensible option would be for him to start his first intentional coming back from the bench, but as hinted above - Eddie doesn't normally do what's expected.

I think he'll start Billy, put an 8 on the bench and have Isiekwe covering lock and flanker on the bench. He'll look to leave Billy on for as long as he can before swapping 8s. If he needs to swap a flanker off for an injury, he'll just put Isiekwe at 6.

Would quite possibly be Simmonds on the bench covering 8, but I think he'll play Hughes against the Barbarians and then take him as an injury replacement for Willis, so he could go with Hughes.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Yoda wrote:I think he wil select Robshaw at 7 and shields at 6

When does Shields hook up with the squad? If he doesn't have much time before the first Test, then it would be daft to have him starting.

I think it's slightly easier for a flanker to integrate than say a lock who is key to the line-out or a back who has to run set plays. As a flanker you just need to be told what channel you're going to after first phase. But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see Shields miss out and either get a cap later in the tour or in the autumn.

Team vs Barbarians:

Marler, Singleton, Sinckler, Stooke, Launchbury, Robshaw, Curry, Mercer
Youngs, Ford, Brown, Francis, Trinder, May, Daly
McGuigan, Genge, Schonert, Beaumont, Wilson, Robson, Cipriani, Solomona

Not sure who the captain is, would guess Robshaw or Ford, possibly as co-captains as last year?

Brown and Daly with a positional switch is an interesting option. Brown has played 11 before for England (not brilliantly albeit), but it does offer Eddie the option of a positional switch rather than a personnel switch if things aren't going to plan.

Surprised not to see Hughes if Eddie has any plans to take him to South Africa. You would have thought he would need the extra minutes. Maybe he's not planning on taking him?

Francis and Trinder are questionable for me. Are they just fill-ins? Or does Eddie see them as genuine options moving forward?

Brown at 11 is a bizarre call, what will he learn from this? Surely better to give Solomona a run out from the start?

Apart from that it's a pretty strong side considering it's a Ba's game.

I'm not sure Hughes is going to SA Rob??

Obano with multiple ligament injuries and hamstring damage
https://www.planetrugby.com/news/beno-obano-set-for-12-month-lay-off/

Cameron Redpath has torn his ACL though can't see if that is training as well.

What are they doing in these camps?

Hazel Sapling wrote:Obano with multiple ligament injuries and hamstring damage
https://www.planetrugby.com/news/beno-obano-set-for-12-month-lay-off/

Cameron Redpath has torn his ACL though can't see if that is training as well.

What are they doing in these camps?

Re4dpath never actually joined an England camp I think, injury done before that.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Brown at 11 is a bizarre call, what will he learn from this? Surely better to give Solomona a run out from the start?

Apart from that it's a pretty strong side considering it's a Ba's game.

I'm not sure Hughes is going to SA Rob??

Willis replacement not named yet. I guess they are waiting to see who is fit come Sunday night before re-confirming teh touring squad

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Brown at 11 is a bizarre call, what will he learn from this? Surely better to give Solomona a run out from the start?

Apart from that it's a pretty strong side considering it's a Ba's game.

I'm not sure Hughes is going to SA Rob??

Willis replacement not named yet. I guess they are waiting to see who is fit come Sunday night before re-confirming teh touring squad

That's where I was headed with that one.

To be fair, he does have Robshaw, Curry, Wilson, Shields, Vunipola and Simmonds, so he should be able to cobble together a test back row. He also has Earl providing cover (but probably more there for the experience), so whether he needs an 8th back rower remains to be seen. But if he takes Hughes it's more cover for Vunipola and would possibly free up Simmonds to play on the flank, if he's serious about that experiment.

For me it's a big chance for Daly to ink his name and for trinder to put himself firmly in the frame. Really interested in the balance from that back row. Not huge carriers but all can make metres.

7.5, do you rate Piers F at 12?

As much as it's fun to see a former Doncaster Knights player (as I live there) in the team no I don't rate him as a good international player. He did I concede play well there away to Argentina but with Slade Farrell and Lozowski not available I understand why he's there.

ebop wrote:7.5, do you rate Piers F at 12?

Cannot answer for 7.5, but for me:

Francis looked decent in Argentina, but has looked pretty rubbish for Northampton.

The guy has a bit of ticker. Thought he played really well in NZ for the Blues, who were crap. He’s got heart and mixed it up. What has he done at Northampton? Kick, pass? Drop the ball? Got in any fights? He seemed liked he could handle the jandle.

LondonTiger wrote:

ebop wrote:7.5, do you rate Piers F at 12?

Cannot answer for 7.5, but for me:

Francis looked decent in Argentina, but has looked pretty rubbish for Northampton.

Agree with the first part.

Are there parallels between Eddie Jones and the current England cricket debate? County cricket form doesn't seem to count for much when it comes to England selection, and Eddie has plumped for a player who has performed from him before, regardless of what he has or hasn't done in the Premiership this season.

You can also see the continued selection of the Quins guys despite their league form, and the lack of many Falcons. It also took Exeter a couple of years fighting at the top end for a lot of their players to get recognition, and a lot of them are still only on the fringe (Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Armand, Simmonds and Slade).

Barbarians team:

Buckley, Kayser, Afoa, Dillane, Timani, Lobbe, Tipuric, Vito
Williams, Russell, Adeolokun, Matavesi, Radradra, Tuisova, Ashton
Polota-Nau, Uhila, Herrera, Tekori, Latu, Laidlaw, McAlister, Fekitoa

Semi, legend RL player

The sheep will give it a nudge if they’re not hungover

From what I've seen at Northampton he was shoved to ten as cover in a team in disarray. He's not a fly half for me. Much like gopperth much better at 12. Functional bit hasn't the quality of the other guys fighting for a midfield berth.

To be honest, goppeth was a below average player in NZ. The kind of guy that losses were blamed on. At least Piers gave it a go. Blues were crap but Piers gave it a go, kicked some points, knocked a guy out, played hard, probably better than goppperth.

Gopperth has really grew onto a fine player, who's better at 10 imo. He was limited at Falcons in a poor side but really kicked on at Leinster and subsequently Wasps. He does everything well without excelling, he's a very good AP standard 10/12.

Not a chance is he better at 10! Player of the year worthy at 12. An example of a player continuing to develop and get better under a new environment. Bit like haskell when he went abroad. Japan did him a world of good.

Does a fine job at 12 but better at 10 for me, happy to disagree.

If Ashton has a stormer at 15 for the Barbarians, does he make the plane for South Africa? Should he?

Notable hack Clive Woodward has been in the media again spouting off against the home-based rule, apparently oblivious to its intention, and thinks Ashton deserves an England call-up and the rule should be scrapped.

The rule isn't going to be scrapped and personally I don't think he's one of our two best wingers, but with question marks over Mike Brown not likely to go away any time soon, would Ashton be a good enough 15 to be considered for England in that position?

It will be a subplot I'll watch with interest on Sunday. Personally I can see England kicking a lot of ball. Youngs putting high balls up with May and Brown looking to contest (and I guess the further we get Daly away from these the better...) and Ford looking to catch Ashton out of position. Whether the Barbarians can control enough possession to negate this tactic will go some way to deciding the game, but "Barbarians" and "control" aren't often used together.

Ashton is an awful 15, have you seen him play there for Toulon? Can't kick and utterly dreadful positioning.

robbo277 wrote:If Ashton has a stormer at 15 for the Barbarians, does he make the plane for South Africa? Should he?

Notable hack Clive Woodward has been in the media again spouting off against the home-based rule, apparently oblivious to its intention, and thinks Ashton deserves an England call-up and the rule should be scrapped.

The rule isn't going to be scrapped and personally I don't think he's one of our two best wingers, but with question marks over Mike Brown not likely to go away any time soon, would Ashton be a good enough 15 to be considered for England in that position?

It will be a subplot I'll watch with interest on Sunday. Personally I can see England kicking a lot of ball. Youngs putting high balls up with May and Brown looking to contest (and I guess the further we get Daly away from these the better...) and Ford looking to catch Ashton out of position. Whether the Barbarians can control enough possession to negate this tactic will go some way to deciding the game, but "Barbarians" and "control" aren't often used together.

Defensively Ashton is nowhere near the level of a club 15, he’s been great in attack but that aspect would be no different from wing anyway

I will be there tomorrow, really interested to see how Daly performs at 15 and I wonder if we might see Cips come on in his tour position later on. Would depend on how comfortable Ford is I suppose.

Some serious gas in that England back five, No.11 apart, but I can't see Ashton winning many aerial challenges against Brown. Francis has not had the best of seasons for Saints but a lot of that is due to the whole of Saints being pants most games. He has a surprising turn of pace over 20-30m though and is pretty robust.

HongKongCherry wrote:Ashton is an awful 15, have you seen him play there for Toulon? Can't kick and utterly dreadful positioning.

No, I haven't seen much of him there. He never struck me as much of a 15, but I know he's been playing there all season for Toulon, scoring tries and he's playing there tomorrow as well. Kicking and positioning are where you would think he might fall down.

Just that 15 is a weaker position for us than wing, so if there's a call for breaking our overseas selection, it's probably better off coming for a 15.

I expect Youngs to put up lots of box kicks to compete and Ford to kick regularly as well.

Changing tack from Ashton slightly, when was the last time Harry Williams played? He's one of two tight-heads in our South Africa squad (with Dan Cole rested), but isn't in the Final squad and when I was looking at who was playing in the lead up to the squad announcement he missed a number of games as well. Is he going to be fit? Will we see Schonert tour? The other option would be Paul Hill, but he's gone with Schonert on the bench for the Barbarians. You wouldn't have thought he'd press Cole into action at this late stage. Is there anyone else?

South Africa have named a big squad for their 4 test June. 24 forwards and 19 backs. A lot of inexperienced players - 17 uncapped in total. Is it a case of the new coach casting his net wide? The squad may get trimmed before the Wales game and trimmed further before the England series.

Forwards: Bismarck du Plessis, Dan du Preez, Jean-Luc du Preez, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Thomas du Toit, Jason Jenkins, Steven Kitshoff, Siya Kolisi, Wilco Louw, Frans Malherbe, Bongi Mbonambi, Oupa Mohoje, Franco Mostert, Tendai Mtawarira, Ox Nche, Sikhumbuzo Notshe, Trevor Nyakane, Marvin Orie, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Kwagga Smith, RG Snyman, Akker van der Merwe, Duane Vermeulen and Nizaam Carr.

Backs: Lukhanyo Am, Curwin Bosch, Damian de Allende, Faf de Klerk, Robert du Preez, Aphiwe Dyantyi, André Esterhuizen, Warrick Gelant, Travis Ismaiel, Elton Jantjies, Jesse Kriel, Willie le Roux, Makazole Mapimpi, Sbu Nkosi, Embrose Papier, Handré Pollard, Frans Steyn, Ivan van Zyl and Cameron Wright.

Malcolm Marx missing for them is huge. He's the first player I'd have off them if there was some kind of draft.

Some classy operators in the back row, Kolisi and Vermeulen are classy operators and will challenge an uncertain area for England. A lot of eyes on Robshaw and Curry tomorrow, while Billy Vunipola came through an hour in tough conditions today, scoring a try against Exeter in the Premiership final.

It's by no means a weak squad for South Africa, but I think if we can gel and put the end of the Six Nations behind us, then we've got a good shot at a 3rd away series win in as many years.

One thing that is interesting to note is that some players who looked spent during the Six Nations (Mako, Itoje and Farrell for starters) had outstanding games today at the back end of the season in the heat. Is it a case of them raising it for their final? A case of club rugby being that much easier than test rugby? Or is it perhaps Eddie's infamously tough training that burnt the players out?

Well Robshaw has started abysmally.

And it gets worse.

We've woke up! Unreal finish from Daly...Brown getting targeted on the wing.

I have honestly never seen Robshaw miss this many tackles. He's been awful.

Daly is playing very well. Cipriani on. Ashton has his hattrick looking great in attack and clumsy at best in defence.

Who is the woman commentating??? She's awful.

Loving Daly at 15, he's involved in everything.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I have honestly never seen Robshaw miss this many tackles. He's been awful.

He looks so slow and ponderous, not playing well at all. Curry on the other hand, excellent.

Waterman pooly. Think it's her first crack at it so I'll give her a chance. She was rambling a bit at the start but being more pertinent now.

May unlucky to get pinged as ball was beyond the back foot and therefore out ..

It's one of those games hear where benefit goes to the baa baas.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Waterman pooly. Think it's her first crack at it so I'll give her a chance. She was rambling a bit at the start but being more pertinent now.

We'll see 7, she's rather annoying, although seems to know what she's talking about.