Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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Ulster Rugby

Final Table
               GP   Points
Leinster    21     70
Scarlets    21     70
Edinburgh 21     68
Ulster       21     62
Benetton   21     55
Dragons    21     20
Kings        21     11

Season Outcome: Playoff for Champions Cup Spot

Ulster are in the Champions Cup

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:hell to the no marty

Well apparently Byrne and Carberry have both dug their heels in so there may not be much choice

I hope Joe boots Carbury out of the RWC squad for not towing the line.

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:hell to the no marty

Well apparently Byrne and Carberry have both dug their heels in so there may not be much choice

The choice would be to wish Mr Marsh all the best for his future career with Doncaster or Jersey

rodders wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:hell to the no marty

Well apparently Byrne and Carberry have both dug their heels in so there may not be much choice

I hope Joe boots Carbury out of the RWC squad for not towing the line.

Well Nacewa is to retire again, maybe he can be tempted to come north and cover 10 since he's outside the IRFUs rules

They better bloody not be sending Marsh here as some kind of consolation prize because Carberry and Byrne refused. I couldn't see Ulster agreeing to that, they have more backbone than be told what to do by the Nucifora's gang. No way would they stand for it......no wait!!!!

Marsh no thanks
We have 3 youngsters all with more potential

We need someone who is half decent NOW not in a couple of years.
Marsh doesn't even fit that description

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:It's hilarious that Skiddy is accusing Ulster fans of a loss of perspective on the one hand and Sin é is accusing them of hyper sensitivity on the other. Maybe Ulster fans are a lot more multi-faceted that the Dublin media are selling to their readers?

I'm accusing Ulster of fulfilling what David Irvine said: ''You'd travel a 100 miles out of your way to get an insult.''

Presumably you are referring to the late David Ervine, who didn't actually say that? (Neither did David Irwin, the former Lions centre - just in case you meant him). Don't worry about getting it wrong - the Dublin press have been doing so for years, so it's understandable.

The IRFU were hyper-sensitive to the threat of sponsorship withdrawal, yet haven't travelled one inch to counter Sweeney's insults to their organisation. Therefore the sensible conclusion would be that they don't care about public opinion as long as it doesn't affect the money coming in. Clearly an Ireland rather than an Ulster issue so shouldn't even be on this thread.

geoff999rugby wrote:Marsh no thanks
We have 3 youngsters all with more potential

We need someone who is half decent NOW not in a couple of years.
Marsh doesn't even fit that description

Totally agree. Can't believe Carbery lacks the ambition to get serious gametime as a first choice starter. How can he be happy to be behind Sexton and Byrne as a flyhalf, or even behind Kearney and Larmour as a fullback. He obviously has so little faith in his own ability that a one year sojourn in Ulster is too daunting, despite half the squad coming from his native province?

[quote="The Great Aukster"]

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:It's hilarious that Skiddy is accusing Ulster fans of a loss of perspective on the one hand and Sin é is accusing them of hyper sensitivity on the other. Maybe Ulster fans are a lot more multi-faceted that the Dublin media are selling to their readers?

I'm accusing Ulster of fulfilling what David Irvine said: ''You'd travel a 100 miles out of your way to get an insult.''

Presumably you are referring to the late David Ervine, who didn't actually say that? (Neither did David Irwin, the former Lions centre - just in case you meant him). Don't worry about getting it wrong - the Dublin press have been doing so for years, so it's understandable.

I heard Senator George Mitchell say this. You can watch him here from approx. 2 mins in. The Dublin media are getting it right.
https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/the-ray-darcy-show-extras-30003588/10861403/

The IRFU were hyper-sensitive to the threat of sponsorship withdrawal, yet haven't travelled one inch to counter Sweeney's insults to their organisation. Therefore the sensible conclusion would be that they don't care about public opinion as long as it doesn't affect the money coming in. Clearly an Ireland rather than an Ulster issue so shouldn't even be on this thread.

I thought the Ewan McKenna article was more an attack on the IRFU than anything else, and they didn't reply to that either.

Why would the IRFU respond to Sweeney? Get more bad publicity?

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Marsh no thanks
We have 3 youngsters all with more potential

We need someone who is half decent NOW not in a couple of years.
Marsh doesn't even fit that description

Totally agree. Can't believe Carbery lacks the ambition to get serious gametime as a first choice starter. How can he be happy to be behind Sexton and Byrne as a flyhalf, or even behind Kearney and Larmour as a fullback. He obviously has so little faith in his own ability that a one year sojourn in Ulster is too daunting, despite half the squad coming from his native province?

It's a strange one alright. As a young player dying to get as much time at outhalf as possible you'd think he'd want to take that next step to being a 1stXV player instead of a utility back. It's a huge chance to make a real name for himself yet he'd rather just be a squad member a couple of hours drive away. If he dislikes the thought of being at Ulster so much I'd rather he just sat tight.

geoff999rugby wrote:Marsh no thanks
We have 3 youngsters all with more potential

We need someone who is half decent NOW not in a couple of years.
Marsh doesn't even fit that description

I can imagine Bryns meeting with Nucifora

Bryn talking about the need for a quality 10, maybe a Test level player but Byrne or Carberry being a decent stop gap and Nucifora talking up Marsh and what he could become

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Marsh no thanks
We have 3 youngsters all with more potential

We need someone who is half decent NOW not in a couple of years.
Marsh doesn't even fit that description

Totally agree. Can't believe Carbery lacks the ambition to get serious gametime as a first choice starter. How can he be happy to be behind Sexton and Byrne as a flyhalf, or even behind Kearney and Larmour as a fullback. He obviously has so little faith in his own ability that a one year sojourn in Ulster is too daunting, despite half the squad coming from his native province?

It would need to be specifically for a year loan I think. Looking at it from the player's point of view - Sexton is getting on, Leinster look to be winning lots of stuff, they have no idea who the new coach / coaching set up will be and Ulster have some young players coming on who might be preferred as they are local.

Sammy Arnold (in an interview in Sunday Times) said that the reason he left Ulster was that he had a chat with management and asked that if he came back fitter and was playing well, would he get a chance of first team rugby. He was told he wouldn't because of all those in front of him. Poor management from Ulster there.

Beyond the deliberately provocative headline, is there anything in the Sweeney article that hasn’t been said already by Ulster Rugby fans on here and elsewhere in regard to past management, poor performances, etc?

Pete330v2 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Marsh no thanks
We have 3 youngsters all with more potential

We need someone who is half decent NOW not in a couple of years.
Marsh doesn't even fit that description

Totally agree. Can't believe Carbery lacks the ambition to get serious gametime as a first choice starter. How can he be happy to be behind Sexton and Byrne as a flyhalf, or even behind Kearney and Larmour as a fullback. He obviously has so little faith in his own ability that a one year sojourn in Ulster is too daunting, despite half the squad coming from his native province?

It's a strange one alright. As a young player dying to get as much time at outhalf as possible you'd think he'd want to take that next step to being a 1stXV player instead of a utility back. It's a huge chance to make a real name for himself yet he'd rather just be a squad member a couple of hours drive away. If he dislikes the thought of being at Ulster so much I'd rather he just sat tight.

Maybe he sees himself as capable of ousting Sexton or that the better learning environment is at Leinster, which isn't a far fetched thought especially as there are no real contenders to keep him out of the Ireland squad. Maybe if Joe had went with Byrne in the 6Ns Carberry would jump at the move or if Carberry was favoured at 10 ahead of Byrne at Leinster he'd want the move

Pot Hale wrote:Beyond the deliberately provocative headline, is there anything in the Sweeney article that hasn’t been said already by Ulster Rugby fans on here and elsewhere in regard to past management, poor performances, etc?  

You mean other than the fact that he talks up Ulster of 6 years ago who have a worse win/loss record than this years vintage?

Or that he calls Ulster fans clowns for thinking that the players shouldn't have been sacked?

Pot Hale wrote:Beyond the deliberately provocative headline, is there anything in the Sweeney article that hasn’t been said already by Ulster Rugby fans on here and elsewhere in regard to past management, poor performances, etc?  

I can summarise some of the stupid parts of the article. The below passages are particularly idiotic.

Is it time to abolish Ulster? Not the province, just the rugby team.

Self-pity never seems to be far away from Ulster. You might feel sorry for them if they didn't feel quite so sorry for themselves. Witness the players taking time out from underachievement last week to compose a statement about how 'sad' the sacking of Jackson and Olding makes them feel.

Meanwhile, a section of Ulster support has been blundering around the place and dragging the province's good name further into the mire.

Do these galoots not have any clue what their behaviour looks like to those outside the bubble? Are they not aware that this case has been reported and debated worldwide? Do they not know that there are many people for whom the first thing conjured up by the name Ulster Rugby is the comment by a woman alleging r*** that she did not want to "go up against Ulster Rugby"? Can they not see that this case will take Ulster rugby years to live down? Do they not realise that the 'disgust' most people feel about the case has nothing to do with the contractual situation of Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding?

You're left with the impression of a bunch of clowns who wanted nothing more than to see Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding run out at the Kingspan Stadium so they could give them the ovation of all ovations. What a great moment in Irish sporting history that would have been.

For me this article was written by someone quite ignorant of the team, the sport and situations he is describing but instead smacks of someone who wants to get his kick in from a safe distance while Ulster are down.

I think that Joe should really have Byrne as second 10 for Ireland. Carberry is currently looking like the new JJ. Lots of promise who is passed out by others who are better than him in a given position. Madigan the same.

If the IRFU are serious they should pick who they think is best and say you are to good to play second. Go to Ulster and we'll put you on a central contract.

We now have seen what it is like having 4 scrum halfs playing at the top level. Flyhalf should be no different.

I'm not sure I agree with that. JJ is yet to get an Ireland cap. Carbery has 10 caps including some pretty important cameos and one or two starts. Madigan earned 30 caps so its harsh to compare him to JJ too.

Byrne is a poor mans Sexton. Very rigid sort of a 10 a bit like Stephen Jones.

I think carbery will be a terrific rugby player but whether he has the discipline and game management to control an international im not sure. Its early days but theres smashing players like Hook etc who were great but just never materialised into a international class ten. I suspect Schmidt thinks back to Madigan and doesn't want Carbery moved around as much.

James Hook is a weird one. 82 caps and still only 32. Same age as Sexton.

He is back at the Ospreys now so you never know maybe he will be a surprise addition to Wales world cup squad, just kidding. I think he made some bad career choices. Perpignan and then Gloucester.

Standulstermen wrote:I think carbery will be a terrific rugby player but whether he has the discipline and game management to control an international im not sure. Its early days but theres smashing players like Hook etc who were great but just never materialised into a international class ten. I suspect Schmidt thinks back to Madigan and doesn't want Carbery moved around as much.

Once get moved around you are seen as a bench first and starter second. Cullen trust Byrne to run the game and that's what you want from a 10. Madigan's downfall was he never learned when to hold and when to go so he played great or terrible (a lot like Russell who Scots hope will learn in France) so him coming off the bench to fit in where needed ended up being his role.

Would you take Keatley. Much looked down on when things go bad mainly because he isn't ROG.

I'd take Keatley for a year but no more.

See Gibbes has described BODs comments as totally irrelevant and not worth even talking about - good lad

I think if we are all honest, we'd bite the hand of any of Madigan, Hanrahan, Bleyendaal, Keatley, Byrne, Carberry or Carty or even Marsh.... IF it were for a longer deal, and there was a liklihood of a re-signing after that.

What most of us have an issue with is that this deal being discussed is pretty much against their will and most defininitely for a year long only.

We could really use another IQ fly-half, EVEN if our hopes were for McPhillips to outplay them.

There is plenty of IQ 10s kicking about. But IRFU aren't interested in what helps ULSTER, their interests is in serving themselves and Leinster, and they happened to have helped create the situation which allows for Carberry or Byrne to go gain experience up north for a season.

When are the IRFU going to actually HELP Ulster Rugby?

clivemcl wrote:I think if we are all honest, we'd bite the hand of any of Madigan, Hanrahan, Bleyendaal, Keatley, Byrne, Carberry or Carty or even Marsh....?

No, No, No, Yes, Yes, Yes, No, No
Bryne is the ONLY one worth signing long term
Lot of names, some individual talent but the only one on that list I am certain of making a true International 10 is Bryne.
Carbery has question marks and none of the others are true International class
I'd rather see us develop our own kids than sign any of the Nos

The article can be summarised as a typical raiding party on Northern rugby as they're an easy target. This type of journalism has been rolling off the Dublin presses since the game became professional, because they know their readership loves the schadenfreude of a knife twisting in the back of a soiled white shirt. Neither can they be blamed for it, or as Josey Wales would say "Buzzards gotta eat too".
What is heartening is that in their responses the Ulster players are circling the wagons against the malevolence, unlike the IRFU who have ran for the hills. The IRFU may not care about Ulster but they are setting a dangerous precedent to the media - someday that same media will turn on them about something they do care about, and they will find they have no backbone to stand up to it.

Double post.

I would take most of those guys Geoff if they were 2/3 yr deals. NIQ slots could be better used elsewhere. Having a high quality 10 would be great, but NIQ spots are limited. And even if they aren't all great standard, we need our depth added to in that position at the very least.

I'd take a 2/3 yr Madigan/Hanrahan/Bleyendaal over a 1 yr only deal of Carberry or Byrne.

Unless of course we have some NIQ10 committed post WC. But if the plan is simply a vague 'we might get an NIQ10 after WC' then I dunno, I give up.

When will UR learn. We need to get solutions that can work now. Not making long term plans that hamper us in the meantime in the grand hope that it will be 'worth it' but rarely is.

Can we just play whats in front of us for a change?

I'm with Geoff. If McPhilips is staying, I wouldn't want Hanrahan, Carry or Marsh.

Fair play. McPhilips has proven to be handy enough yea. But in terms of depth we don’t really know yet how much Curtis or Lowry could be trusted at this level if say there was injury to McPhilips. When you sign a player don’t have to start them. Johnny could still prove himself to be above any new signing if he plays and trains well. I just feel we need another ten on the books whether as a marquee NIQ or a squad player.

disagree with you above Clive. we need long term planning and solutions. we need to see improvement now but no one is expecting trophies or really to be at the business end of the Champions Cup next season. In that sense we are in a unique position.

We need a 10 what I don't want is us tying ourselves in to a mediocre 10 who isn't quite good enough for 2/3 years.
I'd rather our youngsters had a decent run.

A decent 10 for a year and then post WC when far better players become available, and we have NIE slots freed up post WC.

So Carbery, Keatley, Bryne for 1 year makes far more sense than
Madigan, Hanrahan, Bleyendaal, Carty, Marsh for a longer period.

Reality is next year is about rebuilding and bringing the youngsters on, plus the fact top NIE will not be available until after the WC.
In truth I would rather we don't sign a NIE than sign a mediocre one.

Plug the serious 10 and LH gaps somehow and that's it - play the young players and see which ones sink and which ones swim

Any post WC signings will likely not join is till the January so half of the 19/20 season will be back to just who we have now as the 1 yr deal player will be back safely in Dublin.

I don't see next season as the right off some predict. Not given the last few games. New coach, the continued progression of Stockdale, Cooney, Tomoney, Rea etc...
add in Murphy, Moore and an NIQ or two...
Coetzee returning...

You never know.

But imagine if we did happened to win something, and Leinster were forever able to say 'that one time we gave you some of our players so you could win something for a change'...

WC players join in November before the second round of European matches

Cunningham said our target for next year is European and play off qualification
That's realistic, to expect anything more isn't

Importantly the 10s will be a year older and a year wiser and will, between them, be able to handle the 7/8 games while the WC is on.
That is a big difference from an entire season when 2 of the 3 have had 10 minutes game time between them

Geoff, you are in favour of the Carberry/Byrne 1 yr loan rumour?

A lot of other teams too will be badly depleted during the RWC, unless we have a stellar season next season we'll probably have no more than 5 front line players away whereas teams like Leinster and Glasgow will lose large numbers.

Yes but only if they want to come which doesn't appear to be the case.

It crucially would allow the possibility of us signing a NIE Lock which we really need.
We need a LH, Lock and 10 and one of them has to be IQ otherwise we will have a problem position that will hurt us
doesn't solve the problem of a lack of quality NIE available the year before the WC though

I now see BOD his telling players not to come north including suggesting to Murphy he might want to reconsider

What a piece of low life he is

Has he actually said that? there's a lot been attributed to him but i havent seen it. Any link Geoff?

He said something like ‘I’m sure Jordi would be rethinking his decision since things have changed since the time he signed ‘. Paraphrasing and from memory. But yea.

I’d like to see Jordi come out and respond but I guess understandably he was s focussing on doing his best in his remaining weeks with Leinster and doesn’t want dragged into it.

In fairness Murphy is only human and with the injuries of Ruddock, VDF and SoB, not to mention Heaslips retirement and Conans dip in form he has seen a lot more gametime than he would have otherwise. That could all change again were he to stay

What guys like BOD forget is that what is true now mightn't be true come next season, I doubt he and others were saying the same about Munster when they were wanting hand outs and they were bringing Rassie in over Foley

marty2086 wrote:What guys like BOD forget is that what is true now mightn't be true come next season, I doubt he and others were saying the same about Munster when they were wanting hand outs and they were bringing Rassie in over Foley

The IRFU bailed Ulster out a couple of years ago (David Humphreys time) and UR didn't build on that. Munster were bailed out once, have had a fairly difficult time (with Foley's death, change of coach mid-season, plenty of injuries - Johnny Holland & Tyler Bleyendaal at 10), but while not winning any major competitions, it is still very competitive. I fail to see how you can compare Ulster's predicament to Munster, who have a coach, coaching staff and have some very shrewd signings.

We lost a home grown international in waiting during Humphs time. Also back then we weren't allowed to basically disregard the number of NIQs allowed as Munster have been. Also given that we have had 1 NIQ all season i dont see how our signings have been shrewd. Coetzee and Deysel have been gone all season. VDM has played about a game. We lost a coach in Barakat and didnt replace him, we lost a DoR (our own fault) and didnt replace him. Only thing we dont have is Munsters crippling debt and lack of attendances.

Standulstermen wrote:We lost a home grown international in waiting during Humphs time. Also back then we weren't allowed to basically disregard the number of NIQs allowed as Munster have been. Also given that we have had 1 NIQ all season i dont see how our signings have been shrewd. Coetzee and Deysel have been gone all season. VDM has played about a game. We lost a coach in Barakat and didnt replace him, we lost a DoR (our own fault) and didnt replace him. Only thing we dont have is Munsters crippling debt and lack of attendances.

I wonder if we have 10 NIQ's like Munster had at one point last year would be be higher up the table?

Sin é wrote:

marty2086 wrote:What guys like BOD forget is that what is true now mightn't be true come next season, I doubt he and others were saying the same about Munster when they were wanting hand outs and they were bringing Rassie in over Foley

The IRFU bailed Ulster out a couple of years ago (David Humphreys time) and UR didn't build on that. Munster were bailed out once, have had a fairly difficult time (with Foley's death, change of coach mid-season, plenty of injuries - Johnny Holland & Tyler Bleyendaal at 10), but while not winning any major competitions, it is still very competitive. I fail to see how you can compare Ulster's predicament to Munster, who have a coach, coaching staff and have some very shrewd signings.

Not sure of your point, Munster went into a slump pre Rassie and fans were calling for change all while they were struggling financially. No one claimed players shouldn't go there in fact they argued they were still a great club and were right to do so and it's paid off so it's strange that now apparently it's a whole different logic for Ulster.

To be honest I think it's a respect issue, people don't respect Ulster like they do Munster so it's easier for them to dump on the club

Don't care about Munster.

So UR have banned non-sports reporters from press conferences the past two weeks.
Whilst I perfectly understand it, it has only brought the media spotlight right back onto us.
Nolan Show ran with it this morning and many papers too.

One things for sure, the players and coaches do not need to be the ones facing media considering it's a pre-match sporting related press conference.

If the media feel there is still questions to be answered, it should be Logan they are calling out specifically, and not the coaches and players who simply want to do their job without non-related difficult questions being put towards them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09zj3q1#play

The whole thing was botched by Ulster as per usual. To be fair though, Logan did do a sit down interview with BBC even if it was a tame affair so it's not like Ulster can be accused of avoiding the press.

The journalists problem is that the case is proving to be great click bait for them so they want to milk it for as long as they can

clivemcl wrote:So UR have banned non-sports reporters from press conferences the past two weeks.
Whilst I perfectly understand it, it has only brought the media spotlight right back onto us.
Nolan Show ran with it this morning and many papers too.

One things for sure, the players and coaches do not need to be the ones facing media considering it's a pre-match sporting related press conference.

If the media feel there is still questions to be answered, it should be Logan they are calling out specifically, and not the coaches and players who simply want to do their job without non-related difficult questions being put towards them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09zj3q1#play

I thought that it was just the Southern Media putting Ulster under scrutiny?

Much of what is being reported if real flies circling dead carcass stuff.

I think Ulster will be just fine with a bit of time.

Look forward to seeing who Jackson and Olding sign for. Maybe a spell in South Africa.

clivemcl wrote:So UR have banned non-sports reporters from press conferences the past two weeks.
Whilst I perfectly understand it, it has only brought the media spotlight right back onto us.
Nolan Show ran with it this morning and many papers too.

One things for sure, the players and coaches do not need to be the ones facing media considering it's a pre-match sporting related press conference.

If the media feel there is still questions to be answered, it should be Logan they are calling out specifically, and not the coaches and players who simply want to do their job without non-related difficult questions being put towards them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09zj3q1#play

I don't understand why any non-sporting journalist would want access to an Ulster Rugby press conference. The likes of Nolan only wish to create hysteria and negativity, people like him thrive off it. He claims that the public have a right to know certain things. If the public want to know anything about Ulster Rugby then start watching rugby or attend a few games, that's all they need to know surely.
Lo and behold the first caller claims it's morally reprehensible yet then goes on to say he doesn't follow rugby. I wonder what he follows, Soccer with it's whiter than the driven snow morals or perhaps GAA with some of it's teams and venues named after the morally perfect. I know this country hasn't a great track record in leaving the past where it should be but come on, the whole story is getting very tired now. We who had to watch 2 players sacked against our wishes have been able to get on with things so why can't those who's only desire is to feel offended constantly. Even the ugly lezzers have left Mount Merrion ffs.