Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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Ulster Rugby

Final Table
               GP   Points
Leinster    21     70
Scarlets    21     70
Edinburgh 21     68
Ulster       21     62
Benetton   21     55
Dragons    21     20
Kings        21     11

Season Outcome: Playoff for Champions Cup Spot

Ulster are in the Champions Cup

7 players have been included in the U20 for the JWC.

Matthew Agnew, Matthew Dalton, Aaron Hall, Tom O'Toole, Joe Dunleavy, James Hume and Jonny Stewart

Curtis misses out through injury which is unfortunate

Standulstermen wrote:

rodders wrote:Tremendous performance yesterday with so many front line performers missing and all the negativity around the club. That was the biggest game of the season and the players really fronted up.

Gilroy was at his very best and Cooney was superb again. Marshall had a huge game until his injury and the pack to a man stood up to an on paper superior Ospreys 8. For all the talk about ex-players and potential recruits McPhillip's has really impressed albeit is still learning.  

Unfortunately I get the impression that significant section of the Ulster faithful would have preferred the to have team lost so they could continue stomping around chanting Logan out and cry about how the IRFU is oppressing them.

Given all the difficulties and disruption this has been a good season and 1 or 2 more wins would have reached the KO stage of both competitions. With the new signings coming in the future looks bright.

Thanks for the memories Andy Trimble, deserved a better send off.

Jesus Rodders it has in its hole been a good season. We were one loss away from missing out on Europe and we are lightyears away from the top table of Europe. That said I do agree there are green shoots with the likes of O'Toole coming through. Its the only reason I renewed in truth. I do believe with the right coach we are not a million miles away from being competitive but patience is now the watchword. we need to be patient while our young forwards develop

Stand I don't disagree with that but I do think the team at overachieved, or at least didn't underachieve with the panel available. It was certainly a big improvement on the field on the previous 2 seasons, and with a very young team.

This #LoganOut stuff is pathetic. I'm not a fan of his but the negativity around the club is completely out of hand - I think a big section are willing the side to fail to justify their grievances towards Logan and the IRFU.

We are a few years away from competing for silverware for sure but a few improvements and we could be back in play-offs next season.

I can see were you are coming from but i do believe Logan needs to go. I dont believe it enough not to renew my ST or get irate constantly (lifes too short). I do agree with a bit of luck on the injury front (ie Coetzee) and a few shrewd signings we could be a force

Matt Williams getting stuck in too. Gibbes has not come across well in his last interview as UR coach.

One thing I would say is you may be surprised at Munster and Ulster records.
We had the same wins in Europe - 4
We only had one less win in the Pro14, but suffered from the two best teams being in our Conference

Overall Munster 19 - 1 - 11. That equates to a 62.9% success rate
Ulster 17 - 2 - 9 That equates to a 64.2% success rate
Interesting - the terrible Ulster team had a better % success rate in all Pro14 and European competitions than Munster

Because they qualified for the play offs in both competitons and we didn't it looks like a big difference - it wasn't
I put that down, in part, to good luck for Munster and bad luck for Ulster combined with Munster being smarter in Europe vv bonus points
Superficially it looks like a big difference, in practise it isn't.
For most of the season they had superior coaching and they didn't have our distractions.
This may not go down well in Limerick and Cork but ability and potential wise Munster are a lot lot closer to Ulster than Leinster.

I talked about that elsewhere geoff, Munster fan weren't too happy about it. Clueless idiot was a phrase used because apparently it's sacrilege to point out that things may not be as rosy as they think down South or that they may not be as bad up North

I had the same reaction to so much as suggest that the Basket-case could be anywhere close to Munster. The results and stats speak volumes and hopefully, with a more settled season, a full coaching ticket and just a bit more luck with injuries we can be a lot closer to the top table than some would rather admit.
I do feel optimistic about next season as long as the 'us against the world' attitude can perpetuate. Even an attitude of 'right lads, lets show them' would do.

I agree Geoff and that is my point. If you look at our squad we performed overall inline with our potential versus the competition. When you factor in the off field stuff, sacking our coach mid year and all the injuries we actually did really well.

Loosing Leifano mid season as well didn't help and looked like things would go down hill but they didn't. Our best form was on the run in and but for a poor Xmas period we'd have been in the league play-off. Europe form was on par with last season.

Consider also the international form of Best, Henderson - who had good Lions tours- and in particular Stockdale having an unbelievable debut season.

All in a far better season that the doom-mongers will admit.

marty2086 wrote:I talked about that elsewhere geoff, Munster fan weren't too happy about it. Clueless idiot was a phrase used because apparently it's sacrilege to point out that things may not be as rosy as they think down South or that they may not be as bad up North

I'd agree that apart from an overblown court case Id say Munster and Ulster are more or less around the same level. Each team has a few local international class players. Actually I reckon Munster only have POM and Murray whereas Ulster have produced Stockdale, Best and Henderson.

I don't see much difference in where the two sides are at. Munster's strength is generally blown way out of proportion and Ulster's weaknesses likewise.

As a Munster fan, in no way do I think that Munster season has been excellent. Semi finals of Europe and Pro-14 does paper over a lot of cracks. Munster are not as strong as those positions in the tournaments suggest.

I would say that Munster are in a slightly better position (due to better squad depth only) than Ulster but not by that much.

Collapse2005 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I talked about that elsewhere geoff, Munster fan weren't too happy about it. Clueless idiot was a phrase used because apparently it's sacrilege to point out that things may not be as rosy as they think down South or that they may not be as bad up North

I'd agree that apart from an overblown court case Id say Munster and Ulster are more or less around the same level. Each team has a few local international class players. Actually I reckon Munster only have POM and Murray whereas Ulster have produced Stockdale, Best and Henderson.

I don't see much difference in where the two sides are at. Munster's strength is generally blown way out of proportion and Ulster's weaknesses likewise.

Performance wise there has been a gulf, Munster look like the more capable team and less of a push over but to me that would make it even more worrying for Munster as it means Ulster have greater room for improvement.

Munster have made more of their opportunities and have done what they needed to do and have lost out to Racing and Leinster in semis which is nothing to be ashamed of

Well done Ulster for what has been a remarkable end of season run - I bet 2 months ago even the most die-hard Ulster fan would't have predicted been a bawhair away from a playoff spot and qualifying for Champions Cup!

While the win-loss ratios are similar, I think to use that to suggest Ulster are on par with Munster atm would be misplaced. Munster's points difference in the Pro14 was +207, while Ulster's finished at only +56 - I think that tells a story where Ulster have suffered a few thrashings (vs Connacht, Leinster, Cardiff etc.) and have scraped a couple of fortunate wins (Kings, Treviso). Then I think Munster came top of a tough Euro pool and squeezed past Toulon, Ulster did pick up wins in the group stages but it seemed to me against somewhat disinterested Wasps, la Rochelle and Harlequins sides.

If you were a compiling a combined XV then Best, Henderson and Stockdale would make it, could argue for one or two others but all the other positions would be taken up by red jerseys. Munster's starting XV is still pretty strong in my eyes, what separates them from Leinster is the lack of squad depth and a world class out-half.

I pretty certain I'm not the only one who got an Email from Rory

In it he states
Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to recognise the contribution of some great servants to Ulster Rugby who will bid farewell this summer, in particular Andrew Trimble, Paul Marshall, Robbie Diack, Tommy Bowe, Callum Black and Norman Pollock. I wish them and their families all the best for the future.



Interesting are the omissions - nothing about Piatau or Gibbes
I take that to read good riddance you mercenaries
Indeed no kind words about Kiss
Make no mistakes those omissions are deliberate and indicate where the true feelings on the playing staff lie


NB: Norman Pollock is Sparky

theslosty wrote:While the win-loss ratios are similar, I think to use that to suggest Ulster are on par with Munster atm would be misplaced. Munster's points difference in the Pro14 was +207, while Ulster's finished at only +56 - I think that tells a story where Ulster have suffered a few thrashings (vs Connacht, Leinster, Cardiff etc.) and have scraped a couple of fortunate wins (Kings, Treviso). Then I think Munster came top of a tough Euro pool and squeezed past Toulon, Ulster did pick up wins in the group stages but it seemed to me against somewhat disinterested Wasps, la Rochelle and Harlequins sides.

If you were a compiling a combined XV then Best, Henderson and Stockdale would make it, could argue for one or two others but all the other positions would be taken up by red jerseys. Munster's starting XV is still pretty strong in my eyes, what separates them from Leinster is the lack of squad depth and a world class out-half.

Not to forget that two of the better Munster players are products of Ulster, Arnold and Farrell.

theslosty wrote:While the win-loss ratios are similar, I think to use that to suggest Ulster are on par with Munster atm would be misplaced. Munster's points difference in the Pro14 was +207, while Ulster's finished at only +56 - I think that tells a story where Ulster have suffered a few thrashings (vs Connacht, Leinster, Cardiff etc.) and have scraped a couple of fortunate wins (Kings, Treviso). Then I think Munster came top of a tough Euro pool and squeezed past Toulon, Ulster did pick up wins in the group stages but it seemed to me against somewhat disinterested Wasps, la Rochelle and Harlequins sides.

If you were a compiling a combined XV then Best, Henderson and Stockdale would make it, could argue for one or two others but all the other positions would be taken up by red jerseys. Munster's starting XV is still pretty strong in my eyes, what separates them from Leinster is the lack of squad depth and a world class out-half.

I love how Ulsters opponents were disinterested yet Castres and Leicester somehow weren't

Didn't Rory Kockett give an interview before one of their games basically giving the impression he couldn't care less?

Right, now that the Champions' Cup qualification is secured, let's get those NIQs signing on the line and unveiled.

Despite being impressed by the performances of Cooney and many youngsters and optimistic about what Murphy and Moore will add there's still a few things I want to know before I get overly optimistic.

- Who will the NIQ signings be?
- Are we getting Carbery or not?
- Are we getting McFarland for pre-season or not?
- Is Coetzee fully recovered and in good shape?
- Not crucial, but has Payne actually been officially retired or not?

Hopefully will get these answers within the next month or so.

Still a lot of unknown, so hard to say where Ulster are really at and what we can be hopeful of for 2018/19.

oh and one more thing, is Logan leaving or not?

theslosty wrote:While the win-loss ratios are similar, I think to use that to suggest Ulster are on par with Munster atm would be misplaced. Munster's points difference in the Pro14 was +207, while Ulster's finished at only +56 - I think that tells a story where Ulster have suffered a few thrashings (vs Connacht, Leinster, Cardiff etc.) and have scraped a couple of fortunate wins (Kings, Treviso). Then I think Munster came top of a tough Euro pool and squeezed past Toulon, Ulster did pick up wins in the group stages but it seemed to me against somewhat disinterested Wasps, la Rochelle and Harlequins sides.

1. - Firstly lets dismiss the straw man. I did not say on a par I did suggest they were not that far apart.
2 -  no one is denying that Ulster had some terrible performance but the fact that had a BETTER win ratio than Munster suggest there were some performance that confirms point 1.
3 - How you can claim La Rochelle and Wasps were disinterested in their defeats against Ulster is quite frankly utter nonsense.
    Now if you are claiming Castres and Leicester were disinterested in their defeats you would have a point.
    The Munster group was not as tough as Ulster, I think you have to have blinkers on to suggest otherwise

clivemcl wrote:  
- Who will the NIQ signings be?

Don't know but we will sign a LH and a 10 and almost certainly a Lock - 2 of whom can be NIE

clivemcl wrote:  
- Are we getting Carbery or not?

Don't know

clivemcl wrote:  
- Are we getting McFarland for pre-season or not?

Probably but only if we pay out some dosh to the SRU

clivemcl wrote:  
- Is Coetzee fully recovered and in good shape?

Looking hopeful but who knows

clivemcl wrote:  
- Not crucial, but has Payne actually been officially retired or not?

His career is over - worst kept secret at the club

clivemcl wrote:  
oh and one more thing, is Logan leaving or not?  

Probably - the man would have to have some gall to stay when, virtually the entire club dislike him.
Even the committees have turned on him

Will we actually be signing anyone. Paddy McAllister and a run of the mill 10 is all i expect. Maybe Keatley will be it. Time to get the team spirit and work ethic right.
Plenty of backrows coming through Agnew, Hall, Dunleavy, Allison... but not much in the front row, McBurney needs gametime. O"Toole pretty much first choice already. Row is ok.
Need to persist with Stewart as backup to Cooney and get time for Curtis, probably enough in the outside backs to manage. We could probably use a Payne replacement more than a Piatau

theslosty wrote:
If you were a compiling a combined XV then Best, Henderson and Stockdale would make it, could argue for one or two others but all the other positions would be taken up by red jerseys. Munster's starting XV is still pretty strong in my eyes, what separates them from Leinster is the lack of squad depth and a world class out-half.

Well if all player who were on the books and played sometime in 17-18 were available I reckon Ulster would contribute

Best, Henderson, Coetzee, Lealiifano, Stockdale, Marshall, McCloskey, Piatau - that's more than half the starting 15

If your asking given the availability of Piatau, Stockdale, Earls and Zebo - Zebo wouldn't make the team

toml wrote:Will we actually be signing anyone. Paddy McAllister and a run of the mill 10 is all i expect. Maybe Keatley will be it. Time to get the team spirit and work ethic right.
Plenty of backrows coming through Agnew, Hall, Dunleavy, Allison... but not much in the front row,  McBurney needs gametime. O"Toole pretty much first choice already. Row is ok.
Need to persist with Stewart as backup to Cooney and get time for Curtis, probably enough in the outside backs to manage. We could probably use a Payne replacement more than a Piatau

Paddy McAllister is a maybe but no more than that.
Allison ????- who he
Front row is looking promising youngster wise - we have O'Hagan, McBurney and O'Toole
O'Toole is not first choice - next year he will be behind Moore and Herbst and Kane.
Row is a long way from ok - Henderson, AOC, Treadwell and a bunch of kids - maybe Browne. We need another experienced player
There will be no replacement for Payne or Piatau - not NIQ anyway.

Allison is the U19 captain and a backrower. Again great things expected.

While I agree we're down to the bare bones at lock I'd be more worried about 9. We could probably cobble something together at 4 & 5 with Dalton and Rea filling in but if we lost Cooney then we have no one. They clearly don't rate Stewart as he can't even displace Shanahan from the bench.

geoff999rugby wrote:

theslosty wrote:While the win-loss ratios are similar, I think to use that to suggest Ulster are on par with Munster atm would be misplaced. Munster's points difference in the Pro14 was +207, while Ulster's finished at only +56 - I think that tells a story where Ulster have suffered a few thrashings (vs Connacht, Leinster, Cardiff etc.) and have scraped a couple of fortunate wins (Kings, Treviso). Then I think Munster came top of a tough Euro pool and squeezed past Toulon, Ulster did pick up wins in the group stages but it seemed to me against somewhat disinterested Wasps, la Rochelle and Harlequins sides.

1. - Firstly lets dismiss the straw man. I did not say on a par I did suggest they were not that far apart.
2 -  no one is denying that Ulster had some terrible performance but the fact that had a BETTER win ratio than Munster suggest there were some performance that confirms point 1.
3 - How you can claim La Rochelle and Wasps were disinterested in their defeats against Ulster is quite frankly utter nonsense.
    Now if you are claiming Castres and Leicester were disinterested in their defeats you would have a point.
    The Munster group was not as tough as Ulster, I think you have to have blinkers on to suggest otherwise

The main point I was making was if you could offer me either side's season I wouldn't have much hesitation picking Munster's. Feel free to disagree but were any of Ulster's Euro wins that impressive? Wasps were in the midst of a huge injury crisis when they came to Ravenhill, la Rochelle's away from was sketchy throughout the tournament and Harlequins didn't look up to much quite frankly. Munster beat Racing and Toulon who clearly both had serious intentions in the competition and it may not have been a vintage Leicester team but wins at Welford Rd are still not granted easily. Ulster were handily beaten away at Wasps and la Rochelle, Munster will be very disappointed with their semi final but their only other defeat was by one point in Paris.
As for the combined XV I'll concede Piutau completely slipped my mind although based on his performances I'm not sure he's an automatic pick. I'm surprised you've favoured Coetzee who's hardly played for Ulster over the Munster back row, two of which are Test Lions and the other Cloete was very impressive imo. I can agree on Lealiifano but less sure about the centres although there's not a huge amount in it.
Regardless I hope both provinces kick on next season as I am rather resentful of Leinster's domination over Irish rugby

If we get a 10 along with Addison coming in, that has only replaced (in number not quality) Jackson and Olding. I know we are shrinking the squad, but really? We are also losing Payne, Bowe, Trimble, Piutau and Paul Marshall with no more signings in the backs? Surely not...

I'd love Lealiifano back even for half the season again and pick up a top NIE 10 post WC. Play him at 10 for the big games but it also gives the option to play 12 as we are a little short at center and he can play 12 and McPhillips can start. Think if we got a 10/12 style player it would mean McPhillips would get the gametime and it would help ease the center issue.

Instagram revelations:

Piutau posts images of his time at Ulster, with the caption that he is glad to have played for a "special club" with "great men". The last of the images is just him and Jacko.

Jonny McPhilips posts an image of himself and Stockdale saying he is "looking forward to the next few years with a top bunch of lads and a great club. #suftum".

theslothy that is all reasonable and I agree I would prefer Munster season to the Ulster season - however I never said otherwise.
Ulster did have some bad performances but the stats show that overall they were comparable to Munster.
Coetzee is there because when fit I'd take him over any Munster backrower - he really is that good and was a total body blow to Ulster.
Him, Murphy and Timoney with Deysel on the bench could give us a backrow that you wouldn't recognise.
In the centres Arnold and Farrell both left because they couldn't get in the team
I totally accept they have improved but my justification is even now I would not swap, although the difference between Farrell and McCloskey is very debatable. Marshall is comfortably better than Arnold

Spot on with your last sentence though

clivemcl wrote:If we get a 10 along with Addison coming in, that has only replaced (in number not quality) Jackson and Olding. I know we are shrinking the squad, but really? We are also losing Payne, Bowe, Trimble, Piutau and Paul Marshall with no more signings in the backs? Surely not...

Clive as I have said repeatedly there will be no NIQ backs signed other than, possibly a 10.
Our needs at LH and Lock are far more urgent

Don Alfonso wrote:Instagram revelations:

Piutau posts images of his time at Ulster, with the caption that he is glad to have played for a  "special club" with "great men". The last of the images is just him and Jacko.

Jonny McPhilips posts an image of himself and Stockdale saying he is "looking forward to the next few years with a top bunch of lads and a great club. #suftum".

Glad for the McPhillips post - puts to bed the rumour by KOTH.
I never believed it at the time

As for Piatau, sorry but good riddance.
See he is fit enough to play for the Baa Baas

The letter by Rory where he said his best wishes for the future to every senior player leaving except Piatau tells you all you need to know.
He has not been worth half the money we paid him this year - showboater

I'm with Rory on this one

My interest in the Jacko picture is more that a God-fearing blow-in, who was explicitly with Ulster for the money, obviously doesn't think Paddy deserves to be shunned, at this stage, when he has no skin in the game.

Apparently Ulster have been refused the chance to sign Elton Jantjies by the IRFU

That better not be true. That would be a whole new level for the IRFU. Forbidding our chance to sign a decent NIQ simply because they want us to give Carbery game time on loan for a season???

Going to be in tomorrows Newsletter

Interesting. I'd still prefer Lealiifano. Odd that he'd move before the World Cup as well.

So we can't keep our own 10, can't bring a 10 back, can't sign an overseas 10 and can't force an Irish 10 to move.

Great job Nucifora and the IRFU.

You can’t blame the IRFU for punishing Ulster after the atrocious way they handled the incidents this season. The IRFU should really take total control to ensure the problems don’t occur again.

marty2086 wrote:Apparently Ulster have been refused the chance to sign Elton Jantjies by the IRFU

Munster could be involved in this

There were reports elsewhere that it was Ben Volavola that was blocked.
I doubt the Pienaar story is true, it sounds like wish ful thinking and he is still under contract so couldntt just leave.

The Newsletter has reported that the Jantjies move has been knocked back and we're also talking to Volavola. That report also contained this:
"However, while Ulster fans may be quick to criticise the IRFU - it is also believed Leinster have had requests for an NIQ to replace Isa Nacewa blocked as well."
Leinster have 4 outhalves, one of which they are being forced to ship out to Munster who also have 3 outhalves. Ulster have 1 inexperienced outhalf fresh from the academy who could do with an experienced 10 to aid in his development. Any critisism of the IRFU is well placed yet again.

The mind simply boggles. If this was blocked AND we are getting the loan of Carbery, it’s still annoying. But if it’s blocked and we don’t get Carbery, then I give up. I just don’t get it. If Jantjies is available now, we ought to take him. Unless we have a better NIQ promised to us post WC.

Its being blocked because they still want an IQ 10 to come here.

If that doesn't happen we will get an NIQ 10.
Basically the IRFU will only allow it if the IQ option fails

Cyril wrote:You can’t blame the IRFU for punishing Ulster after the atrocious way they handled the incidents this season. The IRFU should really take total control to ensure the problems don’t occur again.

The decision re a NIQ 10 has nothing to do with the trial.

The solution is simple get rid of the CEO - every man and his dog here want it to happen.
I would be shocked if he doesn't go
Apparently a replacement has already been lined up

Seems odd though that they haven’t agreed anything with an IQ 10 yet. Was it not almost a month ago now that it emerged Schmidt was talking to Carbery and Leo?

If we get Carbery on a decent contract and not a loan, then that’s one thing. But being asked to pass up Jantjies just to give another clubs 10 experience for a year seems a tad unfair.

Girl on the panel of Off The Ball the other day said ‘makes much more sense for Carbery to go to Munster and play with Murray rather than go North where its a lesser standard’. (Paraphrasing)

Independent article


Ulster have lined up a replacement for Paddy Jackson but it remains unclear if the IRFU will approve the deal.
Springbok out-half Elton Jantjies is top of the list for the northern province who appear unlikely to land Joey Carbery from Leinster.
Indeed, Munster have come into the picture as a potential destination for the Athy man who has yet to make a final decision on his future, but is thought to favour remaining at his home province for another year.
Any move for Jantjies would need approval from IRFU performance director David Nucifora who appears to be reluctant to sanction the deal as he favours moving Carbery north.
The Leinster starlet's hesitancy has seen the northern province go cold on the idea, particularly if he only commits to a one-year loan deal. Jantjies (27) has played 23 times for his country and is seen as a playmaker in the mould of Christian Leali'ifano, who covered the position last season.

Well that article does not say it is blocked.
It states they are reluctant and want Carbery to come here.
If he does not, I would read into that, that a NIQ would be allowed if an acceptable IQ player could not be found.
I don't have a problem with that in all honesty

clivemcl wrote:Girl on the panel of Off The Ball the other day said ‘makes much more sense for Carbery to go to Munster and play with Murray rather than go North where its a lesser standard’. (Paraphrasing)

Journo on TV Talking rubbish - nothing new there.
She is only confirming the wisdom of Mark Twains words

Agreed Geoff. My concern is the IRFU wait too long on Carbery dicking about, and in the meantime Jantjies or whoever else decides to sign elsewhere or don't appreciate being made to wait.

My preference in order

- Carbery willingly on a 2 year deal
- Jantjies or equivalent standard right now
- Carbery for a year and we hope to find a good NIQ post WC
- Keatley
- Stick with McPhilips and no signing

Agreed there has to be a point when this stops and we are free to sign a NIQ
IRFU want option 3, I reckon option 1 is a no goer.
Keatley will be in a very difficult position - Munster will have 4 IQ 10's - someone has to leave but who and where