Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

by Hazel Sapling Wed 04 Apr 2018, 1:16 pm

What is the appropriate way forward for Ulster?

Bring Jackson and Olding Back - They were found not guilt and have been punished far enough through reputational damage and a year's suspension

Look to move Olding and Jackson on for a period of time before bringing them back in a couple of seasons - They have brought damage to the Ulster brand and need to mature. This has to be done outside the comfort of Belfast

Terminate/buyout contracts and banish them - They crossed a line too far and they will never play for Ulster again

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 1:26 pm

The club themselves need to welcome them back but acknowledge that it's not going to be easy and it probably.won't be quickly forgotten. They need open and honest communication with their fans and community and need to be seen as addressing the cave man behaviour of this (at best).

by TJ Wed 04 Apr 2018, 1:53 pm

For me I would never want them to play for my club again. apart from anything else they will be the constant target of demonstrations and sledging and will never be able to move on and leave this behind them. Moving to France / England will give them a chance to rebuild their careers in a way they won't at Ulster

by marty2086 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 2:14 pm

Ah yes, you wouldn't want to do something in case it offends someone.

If I get a group together to protest if their sacked does that negate the threat of demonstrations if they stay?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 3:37 pm

Could do.

by marty2086 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 4:00 pm

Got it sorted, we're marching on the Kingspan next week, torches and all

Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward Angry_10

by TJ Wed 04 Apr 2018, 4:03 pm

Marty - my point was not about not doing something incase it offends anyone. Its about accepting the reality that if these guys play for Ulster again then disruption is inevitable. Mob rule if you like but thats the reality. If you want them to be able to move on from this leaving ulster will make that easier

by marty2086 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 4:04 pm

So leaving their family and friends would be easier? Makes sense Rolling Eyes

by TJ Wed 04 Apr 2018, 4:16 pm

Its one choice to make amongst many in this case. Do the club want to make sure their players are role models and think these guys are not suitable? Or do they think that they have been found innocent so start again with a clean sheet?

Do they want to face down the disruption playing them is going to cause or do they want the problem to go away?

Do the players themselves want to face the inevitable demonstrations or get a clean start elsewhere? for me the clean start elsewhere would be the option I would chose.

This is all about opinions and choices. this is setting aside any moral considerations but if I were them I would want a clean break and go to somewhere where I could get a clean start.

by Pete330v2 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 4:25 pm

Mob rule is OK as long as it's an OK lefty kind of mob fuelled with mock disgust, backs of hands glued firmly to foreheads.
The decisions around the 3 players cannot depend on any mob or social media pressurw. The next daily mail headline will lure them away before long to vent their mock horror again.

by Monkeyan Wed 04 Apr 2018, 4:25 pm

Given that they were found not guilty of any criminal activity and that the text messages, however distasteful, were private messages that only became public knowledge because of the trial, I can't see any case for dismissal that an employment lawyer acting for the players wouldn't easily pick apart.

It would be a sad day for Ulster and Ireland if mob rule prevails and two players, who will have to live with the #Ibelieveher nonsense for years to come, end up losing their livelihoods due to the actions of a group for whom anything other than a guilty verdict, irrespective of the evidence (of lack thereof) was always going to be unacceptable.

If the IRFU jettison them on grounds of morality, for engaging in threesomes, using derogatory or sexist language in private conversations, etc., where do we draw the line thereafter? Does every player who has ever cheated on his wife/girlfriend also have to go?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 4:49 pm

Yeah marty generally marching with torches brings about a certain feel that donald trump would support.

by geoff999rugby Wed 04 Apr 2018, 4:52 pm

I see Folau spouting off about Gays again.

Using the word sluts puts you in the dog house.
Being homophobic is fine

Double standards ??

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 4:54 pm

For some here it's completely acceptable. Some were defending basteraud and will defend solomona as well no doubt.

by TJ Wed 04 Apr 2018, 4:57 pm

Errmmm - were we not warned off discussing this? Its really difficult to see what is right here. I just repeat that if I were the players i would want a fresh start somewhere else simply for that clean start

There is also the civil suit coming which as its "balance of probabilities" not "beyond reasonable doubt" the woman has a good chance of winning.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 5:35 pm

Where's the warning?

by Pete330v2 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 5:45 pm

Warned off discussing it in a thread created to discuss it?

by geoff999rugby Wed 04 Apr 2018, 5:54 pm

That was my thinking Pete.
What else is this thread about ?

by TJ Wed 04 Apr 2018, 5:55 pm

on the end of the previous ulster thread.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 6:13 pm

Oh sugar. Keep it to the homophobic abuse seemingly prevalent in rugby then.

by TJ Wed 04 Apr 2018, 6:21 pm

Mods seem to have left this one alone tho. I think the poll is interesting

by Pete330v2 Wed 04 Apr 2018, 6:28 pm

A poll on a forum is hardly interesting especially when one option is entitled 'permanent banishment'. What kind of halfwit would honestly agree in permanent banishment? Banished because SO made a few ill-judged comments? Banished because PJ made one single comment aimed at nobody in particular. Perhaps banished because CG sent a text or two?

by geoff999rugby Wed 04 Apr 2018, 6:58 pm

Homophobia by Folau, Solomona, Basteraud et al is just a slap on the wrist.
Throw a dwarf around you get to marry a princess
Call a woman a bitch and it is covered up

Get found innocent in a court of law and use a word the accuser used herself and you deserved to be banished into the darkness

The world has gone mad

by Standulstermen Wed 04 Apr 2018, 7:20 pm

TJ wrote:Errmmm - were we not warned off discussing this? Its really difficult to see what is right here. I just repeat that if I were the players i would want a fresh start somewhere else simply for that clean start

There is also the civil suit coming which as its "balance of probabilities" not "beyond reasonable doubt" the woman has a good chance of winning.

Actually the civil suit is still very much in doubt. Firstly she doesnt have the blanket of anonymity and there are a lot of things ruled inadmissible in a criminal case which are allowed in a civil action which could be detrimental to her chances.

by UlsterinKildare Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:24 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:Mob rule is OK as long as it's an OK lefty kind of mob fuelled with mock disgust, backs of hands glued firmly to foreheads.

This is so true - but don't discount the silent majority.

Most people don't comment about 'sensitive matters' on social media. The only people that do are those that feel particularly strongly about it - and they tend to believe that everyone else shares their world view.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:26 pm

I’ve gone for the punishment had already occurred. They have missed this season fully (not going to try and explain why as I know where those conversations end)

by Standulstermen Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:43 pm

For what its worth TJ i think you might be right regarding what the players want. I wonder how much of the after trial statements were bravado so as to put the IRFU into the position of having to pay out

by **profitius** Thu 05 Apr 2018, 1:14 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah marty generally marching with torches brings about a certain feel that donald trump would support.

You've obviously never been to Kerry. Very Happy

Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward Healy-rae-blog

by No 7&1/2 Thu 05 Apr 2018, 6:58 am

Jesus

by geoff999rugby Thu 05 Apr 2018, 10:36 am

It appears investigations are taking to place to determine if the charges should even have been brought

The Public Prosecution Service is being scrutinised for mismanaging the whole thing

Prosecutors are facing scrutiny over how Paddy Jackson came to be charged with r***, Belfast Live has learned.

It is understood they have been asked if at any stage a No Charge recommendation was made or expected to be made in 2016.

Now extensive paperwork, emails and internal correspondence from inside the Public Prosecution Service may be sought after concerns were raised that the decision to charge the rugby player and his three friends may not have been clear cut.

Jackson, 26, and 25-year-old Stuart Olding were acquitted last week of the charges against them at Belfast Crown Court by a jury who took three hours and 45 minutes to reach a unanimous decision after an eight-week trial.

The PSNI could also be drawn into the query and it is believed a request may be made for police case notes and all early thoughts and recommendations about the matter. A source said: “r*** is one of the most serious criminal complaints police handle and they took the claims very seriously from the get-go.

“They interviewed the complainant. They interviewed the four men several times. They interviewed witnesses.

“They examined a lot of details on all sides and in the end they recommended no charge. There was a feeling they didn’t have what’s needed for a r*** case to stand up. The case went to trial. The result was unanimous. The men were found not guilty.”

The complainant, now aged 21, gave evidence over eight days in the witness box and was examined by Prosecutor Toby Hedworth QC and cross-examined by four of the UK’s top barristers. Ten PSNI officers from the r*** Crime Unit gave evidence in the 42-day trial where Jackson stood accused of r*** and sexual assault. Olding was accused of r***.

Only confirms my suspicion, I voiced before; if it hadn't been rugby players it would never have got to court, the evidence just wasn't there.
This doesn't mean I approve, in any way, how the palyers conducted themselves (just in case Sin e is watching !)

by Geen sport voor watjes Thu 05 Apr 2018, 12:04 pm

There is also a report in the independent that if reporting restrictions are lifted the not guilty verdict would be undermined.

by Standulstermen Thu 05 Apr 2018, 12:31 pm

Its more that the reporting of the restrictions would undermine the verdict as opposed to the restrictions themselves though. Basically insinuating a media bias (which isnt altogether far fetched). That said if Belfast live is the source for Geoffs news i'd wait till we get another

by geoff999rugby Thu 05 Apr 2018, 12:39 pm

Stand I am posting from there, but also appear to be rumours within the club along the same lines

There is also talk of, if the reporting restrictions are lifted the case itself will be completely destroyed

You pays yer money and takes yer choice

by marty2086 Thu 05 Apr 2018, 4:30 pm

geoff, one of the many rumours doing the rounds was that it wasn't who the accused were but who the accused father was.

Friends in the right places...

by geoff999rugby Thu 05 Apr 2018, 4:33 pm

One thing we aren't short of is rumours

that's for sure

by marty2086 Thu 05 Apr 2018, 4:56 pm

And Alison Morris has written a piece attacking Ulsters PR approach, think some of the wording highlights her thoughts on the outcome

Ulster Rugby handling of trial fall-out a PR disaster
THE most difficult job a press officer for any sporting organisation will usually have is trying to explain why a team is failing to perform.

The media relations staff at Ulster Rugby have had a very different set of problems to deal with of late.

But despite the fact that the trial of Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding lasted nine weeks - four weeks longer than initially scheduled - the club did not appear to have an effective strategy in place to deal with the inevitable fall-out.

And despite Whatsapp messages that referred to women as 'sluts' and 'brassers' being read out in the early days of the trial, there doesn't seem to have been any coordinated plan in place to deal with news reporters' quite legitimate questions based on public concern.

Ulster Rugby has always enjoyed a family-friendly image, and many members have spoken of the Christian values they associated with the club as their reason to stay at Kingspan when they could have commanded higher salaries elsewhere.

But that is far from the picture painted in Laganside courtroom 12 during the trial of the two Ulster and Ireland players, who as well as engaging in derogatory conversations about women in their company had been on a four-day drinking binge when finally contacted by police.

While many have tried to pass this misogyny off as 'lads being lads' and 'locker room banter', the reputation of the club has been damaged.

If Ulster Rugby had a prepared statement that reflected the public mood and indicated a very real desire to deal what appears to be a hard-partying culture of hedonistic debauchery at the expense of any woman unfortunate enough to cross paths with some of their players, then maybe they'd be in a better place.

At first when asked by The Irish News, the club said no other player was involved in the Whatsapp exchanges in the days and hours after the alleged attack.

It later confirmed that while not present at the party, Craig Gilroy had sent a sexually explicit and offensive message to Stuart Olding the day after.

He has since issued an apology but will not play for the club this weekend and will after all be included in an internal review.

This was after coach Jono Gibbes was left exposed before the press this week and indicated that Gilroy was available for selection.

The drip-feed of information is not working for Ulster Rugby and management need to step up and deal with this serious issue and explain how they are going to change a culture of misogyny among some of their younger players. They need to realise this is a problem that will not just go away.

by Standulstermen Thu 05 Apr 2018, 6:52 pm

Written with an inherent bias. Ulster dont have the luxury of coming at this from a purely philosophical perspective because whatever they put out into the ether will dissected for being prejudicial. they've so far done the only thing they can.

Geoff

Agree will what you said above. just if belfast live are reporting it before more reputable sources i'll wait a bit. I think you may be right though

by The Great Aukster Thu 05 Apr 2018, 8:38 pm

marty2086 wrote:geoff, one of the many rumours doing the rounds was that it wasn't who the accused were but who the accused father was.

Friends in the right places...

Not the 'accused' but rather the 'accuser'

by geoff999rugby Fri 06 Apr 2018, 9:08 am

I don't think we will hear anything till the last match at Kingspan has been played, to avoid any, potential, protest.

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 9:21 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
marty2086 wrote:geoff, one of the many rumours doing the rounds was that it wasn't who the accused were but who the accused father was.

Friends in the right places...

Not the 'accused' but rather the 'accuser'

Sorry you're right, typo not picked up Doh

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 9:23 am

geoff999rugby wrote:I don't think we will hear anything till the last match at Kingspan has been played, to avoid any, potential, protest.

Too late, the Belfast Feminist Network, are planning to protest the Ospreys game. The police haven't had a request for it to take place so they'll probably be looking to make a stunt of it and try to get arrested and complain about the PSNI and Ulster

by Pete330v2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 9:27 am

marty2086 wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
marty2086 wrote:geoff, one of the many rumours doing the rounds was that it wasn't who the accused were but who the accused father was.

Friends in the right places...

Not the 'accused' but rather the 'accuser'

Sorry you're right, typo not picked up

Don't forget the other rumour about the accuser being a serial accuser in this particular field.

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 9:40 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
marty2086 wrote:geoff, one of the many rumours doing the rounds was that it wasn't who the accused were but who the accused father was.

Friends in the right places...

Not the 'accused' but rather the 'accuser'

Sorry you're right, typo not picked up

Don't forget the other rumour about the accuser being a serial accuser in this particular field.

Pete, I could fill a newspaper with the rumours I've heard around the case. Everyone has one, they heard from someone, who heard from someone who knows. There are others about sex tapes and solicitors telling Ulster the lads were guilty as sin then changing their mind a few days into the trial

by Pete330v2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 10:00 am

marty2086 wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
marty2086 wrote:geoff, one of the many rumours doing the rounds was that it wasn't who the accused were but who the accused father was.

Friends in the right places...

Not the 'accused' but rather the 'accuser'

Sorry you're right, typo not picked up

Don't forget the other rumour about the accuser being a serial accuser in this particular field.

Pete, I could fill a newspaper with the rumours I've heard around the case. Everyone has one, they heard from someone, who heard from someone who knows. There are others about sex tapes and solicitors telling Ulster the lads were guilty as sin then changing their mind a few days into the trial

Well exactly. All I know for certain is the prosecution's case was as pathetic and misguided as the hashtag gang filled with their mock outrage. My other half read a story last night about some petition with 65000 signatures, another meaningless effort by the same people who'll have voted early and often and spread the net wide to those around the world who wouldn't even have heard about the case. Online petitions are utterly meaningless but these dumb pricks can't fathom that anymore than be able to work out that a protest outside Ravers will only serve to make them all look more foolish than they already do.

by Pete330v2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 10:11 am

Speaking of fools, I see Anna Nolan has run a Gofundme page to raise funds for an add in the Belfast Telegragh calling for PJ and SO to never represent Ulster or Ireland again. She raised the necessary £2000 with a little spare change left over which I'm sure she'll donate to some LGBT charity. The world is doomed when people like this exist.

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 10:16 am

Pete330v2 wrote:Speaking of fools, I see Anna Nolan has run a Gofundme page to raise funds for an add in the Belfast Telegragh calling for PJ and SO to never represent Ulster or Ireland again. She raised the necessary £2000 with a little spare change left over which I'm sure she'll donate to some LGBT charity. The world is doomed when people like this exist.

I wonder if the BelTel would run a counter ad on the opposite page

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 06 Apr 2018, 10:28 am

Pete330v2 wrote:Speaking of fools, I see Anna Nolan has run a Gofundme page to raise funds for an add in the Belfast Telegragh calling for PJ and SO to never represent Ulster or Ireland again. She raised the necessary £2000 with a little spare change left over which I'm sure she'll donate to some LGBT charity. The world is doomed when people like this exist.

Liquor, Guns, Bacon, and T1ts?

Also how does that work? they think that £2k can pay out the remaining contracts for the players, or that they think that the money can pay a lawyer to proves that they have breached their contract conditions suitably enough to be fired?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 11:00 am

.surprised the amount fo faith an backing some of you have for these players.

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 11:33 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:.surprised the amount fo faith an backing some of you have for these players.

Sorry what's your point? They've been found not guilty, there's no proof they've broken any laws.

While they may have been prats, they deserve the opportunity at redemption. If they don't see the error of their ways I'm happy for them to be shown the door but until that time comes, everyone should have a second chance and not led to a well by a hysterical crowd who don't know/care/fathom the facts of it all

by Standulstermen Fri 06 Apr 2018, 11:35 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:.surprised the amount fo faith an backing some of you have for these players.

Its not about the players as individuals. They may well be every inch the idiots portrayed in those messages. The point is that what male wasn't an idiot at that stage of their life, especially when it came to women. What they are is innocent which seems lost on most.

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