England U20s - JWC

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures/Results:

England 39 - Argentina 18
Wednesday 30 May


England 43- Italy 5
Sunday 3 June


England 35 Scotland 10
Thursday 7 June


Semi-final - England v South Africa
Narbonne
12 June 18:00


Finals day
Beziers, 17 June



Squad:

Forwards

Josh Basham (London Irish)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks)
Beck Cutting (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors)
Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester Rugby)
Ciaran Knight (Gloucester Rugby)
Joel Kpoku (Saracens)
Sam Lewis (Leicester Tigers)
Gabriel Oghre (Wasps)
Ehren Painter (Northampton Saints)
James Scott (Worcester Warriors)
Alex Seville (Gloucester Rugby)
Toby Trinder (Northampton Saints)
Henry Walker (Gloucester Rugby)
Tom Willis (Wasps)

Backs

Rory Brand (London Irish)
Will Butler (Worcester Warriors)
Ali Crossdale (Saracens)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints)
James Grayson (Northampton Saints)
Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers)
Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins)
Ben Loader (London Irish)
Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Parton (London Irish)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Ben White (Leicester Tigers)



Unavailable through injury:
Dino Lamb (Harlequins)
Sam Moore (Sale Sharks)
Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs)

Unavailable as named in senior squad:
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks)

The number 8 is never 17! WTF are they feeding those monsters? Don't fancy England's chances come final time, but we will see.

Ahh I thought it must have been. Looks a prospect.

France have a few gems coming through if they can take this on to senior level!

Yoda wrote:The number 8 is never 17! WTF are they feeding those monsters? Don't fancy England's chances come final time, but we will see.

Yes Jordan Joseph is 17. Coming from the same dodgy Parisian suburb team than the likes of Macalou and Cancoriet. Could become French back row in a few years. This is the type of area where rugby should be developed because there is huge potential but hardly any means.
Anyway roll on the final. A win against NZ is already a big thing so the England would be the icing on the cake if they make it but not so optimistic as this game will leave some scars.

Couldn't help being reminded of the tour game against South Africa. In the end, we had no answer to their physicality, and they were almost guaranteed a try every time they could set up a maul close to the line. Only Bok mistakes stopped more.

What also marked the game out from the tour match is that we managed to get a couple of penalties to keep our noses in front and, crucially, an interception try against the run of play. That meant the Boks never had the lead, and the pressure caused mistakes.

England did seem to struggle with the SA pack.
That French unit will cause no end of problems! How did England do against them in the 6N? Or was it a different crop of players?

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/en/u20/32895.php

France 6 England 22

Looking at the French team from the 6Ns and yesterday there seem to be a lot of different faces.

France won the championship on points diff. but lost that game to England.
Sets up a very interesting final and great for the French that its on home soil - May well be the difference.
As you said Rugby Fan - there were many similarities with the senor side. Penalty count felt as if it was quite big.
I hope the final is also on TV.

It's on itv yes.

Got my hours wrong and missed the England game. Heard a lot of noise about Ibitoye again and he features heavily in the highlights. Is it still him, Smith and Curry running the show for us?

Saw a lot of France vs New Zealand and they looked impressive. Should hopefully be a good game. The French pack did look strong.

robbo277 wrote:Got my hours wrong and missed the England game. Heard a lot of noise about Ibitoye again and he features heavily in the highlights. Is it still him, Smith and Curry running the show for us?

Saw a lot of France vs New Zealand and they looked impressive. Should hopefully be a good game. The French pack did look strong.

I am hoping it is all on youtube like the others. In your list of prominent players it is worth mentioning Olowofela. His interception try following the tackle by the centre was the difference. Once he got ahead of the SA chasers they stopped bothering to chase...

England struggled because the Welsh ref wouldn't let them contest the breakdown. Seemed quite inexperienced.

Some of the kicking out of hand particularly in the second half when the kick chase was tiring was poor. Parton at 15 kicked a couple of real stinkers one of which ended up leading to a try. Disappointing to see us try the chip in behind quite so often, we'd obviously spotted it in analysis but it wasn't working and we should have looked to change tactic.

That big Sarries lock looked to be pretty useful too - as well as Smith, Curry and Gabriel.
As you say 'lostinwales' Olowofela also made a big impact with great pace and strength for a chap that looks quite slight.

England need to sort out their set piece. They will struggle in the scrum against the French, but our line out was dire yesterday. Seemed good in the 1st half but crumbled in the 2nd - replacements didn't seem any better either!

Joel Kpoku

propdavid_london wrote:That big Sarries lock looked to be pretty useful too - as well as Smith, Curry and Gabriel.
As you say 'lostinwales' Olowofela also made a big impact with great pace and strength for a chap that looks quite slight.

England need to sort out their set piece.  They will struggle in the scrum against the French, but our line out was dire yesterday.  Seemed good in the 1st half but crumbled in the 2nd - replacements didn't seem any better either!

England look to have the best backs in the tournament and France the best forwards. In my book that makes France favourites.

Simply starve England of possession - much the same way SA did in the 2nd half against England.
The recipe for a France win is there.
England either need to change their tactics or massively up their physicality.

Either way it should be a good match and it would be good for France to break the U20s dominance of England and NZ.

Can England change their tactics that much if the forwards are on the backfoot to the extent they were Vs SA?

A different referee might make a noticeable difference as the Welshman in charge Vs SA wasn't keen to see a competition at the breakdown, it was very much hands off unless the player was clearly isolated. To be fair he was consistent in his application but that didn't help England with a smaller pack and the best scavenger on the pitch.

propdavid_london wrote:Simply starve England of possession - much the same way SA did in the 2nd half against England.
The recipe for a France win is there.  
England either need to change their tactics or massively up their physicality.

Either way it should be a good match and it would be good for France to break the U20s dominance of England and NZ.

In 10 Championships since 2008, England have made the top competition 9 times (equal most), made 8 finals (most) and won 3 (second most). The one time we didn't make the top competition, we missed out on bonus points.

We should by rights have at least the second best pool of 20-30 year-olds by now, so we should be the second best team in the world. This is the yardstick we should measuring our senior team against - and we should be expecting similar levels of achievement.

robbo277 wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Simply starve England of possession - much the same way SA did in the 2nd half against England.
The recipe for a France win is there.  
England either need to change their tactics or massively up their physicality.

Either way it should be a good match and it would be good for France to break the U20s dominance of England and NZ.

In 10 Championships since 2008, England have made the top competition 9 times (equal most), made 8 finals (most) and won 3 (second most). The one time we didn't make the top competition, we missed out on bonus points.

We should by rights have at least the second best pool of 20-30 year-olds by now, so we should be the second best team in the world. This is the yardstick we should measuring our senior team against - and we should be expecting similar levels of achievement.

In theory yes but you have to allow for other countries and their tendency to pilfer players on residency. The systematic targeting of players in this way has benefited some of our near neighbors as well as the antipodeans, we really haven't been at the races in this regard.

robbo277 wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Simply starve England of possession - much the same way SA did in the 2nd half against England.
The recipe for a France win is there.  
England either need to change their tactics or massively up their physicality.

Either way it should be a good match and it would be good for France to break the U20s dominance of England and NZ.

In 10 Championships since 2008, England have made the top competition 9 times (equal most), made 8 finals (most) and won 3 (second most). The one time we didn't make the top competition, we missed out on bonus points.

We should by rights have at least the second best pool of 20-30 year-olds by now, so we should be the second best team in the world. This is the yardstick we should measuring our senior team against - and we should be expecting similar levels of achievement.

That' doesn't take into account we have a nugget as a head coach.

Also...as has been mentioned....players can be world beater at this level, but flatter to deceive as soon as they hit the seniors - even at club level.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Also...as has been mentioned....players can be world beater at this level, but flatter to deceive as soon as they hit the seniors - even at club level.

World Rugby Junior Player of the Year:


2008 Luke Braid New Zealand
2009 Aaron Cruden New Zealand
2010 Julian Savea New Zealand
2011 George Ford England
2012 Jan Serfontein South Africa
2013 Sam Davies Wales
2014 Handré Pollard South Africa
2015 James Chisholm England
2016 Max Deegan Ireland
2017 Juarno Augustus South Africa

formerly known as Sam wrote:In theory yes but you have to allow for other countries and their tendency to pilfer players on residency. The systematic targeting of players in this way has benefited some of our near neighbors as well as the antipodeans, we really haven't been at the races in this regard.

If our players are leaving, why? If we don't want them then that's fine. We should let them go as teams aren't going to become better than us by taking our cast-offs.

When you talk to a NZ'er about Samoans or Fijians playing for NZ, they'll often talk about the number of NZ-born players going the other way. But it's the quality exchange that's important here. The best Fijian player picking NZ would improve the quality of the NZ team and hurt the quality of the Fiji team. Ten players who would never be All Blacks going the other way might improve the Fiji team, but it isn't going to affect the quality of the All Blacks team. If England are losing players that aren't really going to make it, then there is no issue.

So we have to look at former England U20s who we'd want playing for England now. E.g. Ross Moriarty. I know he obviously has strong welsh ties, but did anyone identify from the senior England set up identify him as a future star? Did we try hard enough to keep him wearing the Red Rose? He was an obvious talent at Under 20 level and he's made a serious dent at senior level as well.

It should be the job of the England coach to look at the Under 20s and identify talented players who will make a difference at senior level, talk to them about their future plans, talk to them about what they'll need to show to get into the senior team - and if necessary tie them in. Can they be capped? Could we use the Saxons or even the 7s team to tie them in? As the Saxons have no regular fixtures, can we scrap them, promote the Under 20s to our second team to tie them in at that level? Could we even use our platform at World Rugby to secure a law change with regards to Under 20s?

GeordieFalcon wrote:That' doesn't take into account we have a nugget as a head coach.

This is primarily who should be judged on this yardstick. He got there for a while, but now he's been dipped. The point is he should have the required quality of players available at his disposal.

It's obviously a good thing to have a strong u20s team but realistically you'd be looking at at most about 3 or 4 players being top quality. Then you'd have to consider that in England certainly there is a strong pool of players already with cover for most positions. It should be a gradual introduction for most players but you can certainly see we are so much better placed now for youngsters than we were 10 years ago.

I think criticism of jones is bizarre to be honest especially picking out genge. He looks a top quality prospect but we have 2 guys ahead of him not even in their prime who went on the last lions tour.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Also...as has been mentioned....players can be world beater at this level, but flatter to deceive as soon as they hit the seniors - even at club level.

World Rugby Junior Player of the Year:


2008 Luke Braid New Zealand
2009 Aaron Cruden New Zealand
2010 Julian Savea New Zealand
2011 George Ford England
2012 Jan Serfontein South Africa
2013 Sam Davies Wales
2014 Handré Pollard South Africa
2015 James Chisholm England
2016 Max Deegan Ireland
2017 Juarno Augustus South Africa

And for everyone on that list...how many aren't even playing top flight, championship or such rugby. A huge amount. I would say the numbers that make it aren't that high.

PS Even the likes of James Chisholm haven't got an England cap or anywhere near it.

robbo277 wrote:We should by rights have at least the second best pool of 20-30 year-olds by now, so we should be the second best team in the world. This is the yardstick we should measuring our senior team against - and we should be expecting similar levels of achievement.

Junior rugby is even more of a numbers game than the elite level. England can afford to field a reasonable team even when we have injuries, or the senior side has first call on a player. The same is true for NZ and the Boks, and ought to be true for France.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Also...as has been mentioned....players can be world beater at this level, but flatter to deceive as soon as they hit the seniors - even at club level.

World Rugby Junior Player of the Year:


2008 Luke Braid New Zealand
2009 Aaron Cruden New Zealand
2010 Julian Savea New Zealand
2011 George Ford England
2012 Jan Serfontein South Africa
2013 Sam Davies Wales
2014 Handré Pollard South Africa
2015 James Chisholm England
2016 Max Deegan Ireland
2017 Juarno Augustus South Africa

And for everyone on that list...how many aren't even playing top flight, championship or such rugby. A huge amount. I would say the numbers that make it aren't that high.

PS Even the likes of James Chisholm haven't got an England cap or anywhere near it.

Aye. Of that list how many have become genuine star players?

Braid - not even the best in his family
Cruden - grew tired of being second choice
Savea - shooting star who burned bright but has fizzled away
Ford - more doubters than supporters
Serfontein - in france?
Davies - struggling to make much of an impression
Pollard - seems to be navigating SA rugby politics atm in a key position
Chisholm - as stated not capped. not even a sniff.
Last two - who are they?

Spot on LT

Deegan will be the next Ireland 8 imo

Easy for a lot of those guys to be more physical at that level than the opposition and their compatriots and hence stand out. If they don't develop any nuance to their game than quickly they find that they aren't a big hitter at senior level and are being overtaken by the players who developed slightly later physically and who have developed more rounded skillsets.

Last three winners are number 8s and none have made any impact to date. Not saying they won't but does underline the difference between the levels of physicality required.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Easy for a lot of those guys to be more physical at that level than the opposition and their compatriots and hence stand out. If they don't develop any nuance to their game than quickly they find that they aren't a big hitter at senior level and are being overtaken by the players who developed slightly later physically and who have developed more rounded skillsets.

Last three winners are number 8s and none have made any impact to date. Not saying they won't but does underline the difference between the levels of physicality required.

But age, role and physical development have a big part to play. You would have thought that a no.8 would have to be something very special to get into the main squad at 21 say. Itoje did in the 2nd row but he is a freak, same for Billy I think but that is also very rare and can have consequences with injuries. More likely tight forwards will get their chances when a little older.

You could say Chisholm's career has been derailed by getting lots of injuries, but he is a name that comes up for discussion here from time to time.

There also has to be a vacancy for these guys to have a chance, unless they are so good that they demand a chance.

Most times you need a bit of luck. Your chance will generally come through an injury or suspension. Then it's a case of taking it straight away ie avoiding injury yourself putting in a good performance and the other player not coming straight back into contention. Not to mention the other 3 or 4 guys people are inevitably calling for.

Comentators are idiots. Marcus smith playing for saracens apparently

French look very powerful

English discipline not good so far. Need to get on the good side of the ref or this could get messy.

French scrum pushing England's all over the place. French tighthead has his knee on the floor a bit though.

French power not reflected by the points and a really nice try at the end of the half from England  has them right in it. What was good about the try was the way England seemed so calm and in control in the French 22 with time ticking past 40 mins. 11 points  behind in the final you might expect them to snatch at any opportunity.

France may tire. If England can keep hold of the ball those French forwards are going to have to do a lot of work. Still in the balance

The French forwards were blowing towards the end of that half.

Lovely pass by Hardwick to put Owolofela in.

Ibitoye is useless in defence. High tackle on a monster lock who was at least 6 inches taller than him in the first half leads to the try and then second half two kick chases where he over commits and ruins perfectly good kicks giving the French massive yards.

Need to stop playing away from support, that quick tap was never on.

Curry looks a league above this level.

Is this a French thing the gratuitous celebrations for winning a scrum penalty? Bit OTT.

At times French players showing too much enthusiasm

And not enough killer instinct

English error count far too high. The missed kick to touch by Smith is not acceptable that was simplicity.

France just in control of the scrum and methodical around the park.

We look like boys v men.

What's really frustrating is that the ref is doing a great job so all these English players are undeniably the players fault. So many unnecessary penalties and why oh why did we run the penalty from our own half?

This 9's been very good since he came out, very quick to the breakdown and nice snappy delivery. Good break leading to the try too.

mid_gen wrote:This 9's been very good since he came out, very quick to the breakdown and nice snappy delivery. Good break leading to the try too.

He's certainly a firebrand. If he doesn't make it at 15s there's a career for him in 7s.

Stupid game this rugby thing.

Well deserved win for France, ground us down. I did think the ref was very keen at times, but never mind.

robbo277 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:In theory yes but you have to allow for other countries and their tendency to pilfer players on residency. The systematic targeting of players in this way has benefited some of our near neighbors as well as the antipodeans, we really haven't been at the races in this regard.

If our players are leaving, why? If we don't want them then that's fine. We should let them go as teams aren't going to become better than us by taking our cast-offs.

When you talk to a NZ'er about Samoans or Fijians playing for NZ, they'll often talk about the number of NZ-born players going the other way. But it's the quality exchange that's important here. The best Fijian player picking NZ would improve the quality of the NZ team and hurt the quality of the Fiji team. Ten players who would never be All Blacks going the other way might improve the Fiji team, but it isn't going to affect the quality of the All Blacks team. If England are losing players that aren't really going to make it, then there is no issue.

So we have to look at former England U20s who we'd want playing for England now. E.g. Ross Moriarty. I know he obviously has strong welsh ties, but did anyone identify from the senior England set up identify him as a future star? Did we try hard enough to keep him wearing the Red Rose? He was an obvious talent at Under 20 level and he's made a serious dent at senior level as well.

It should be the job of the England coach to look at the Under 20s and identify talented players who will make a difference at senior level, talk to them about their future plans, talk to them about what they'll need to show to get into the senior team - and if necessary tie them in. Can they be capped? Could we use the Saxons or even the 7s team to tie them in? As the Saxons have no regular fixtures, can we scrap them, promote the Under 20s to our second team to tie them in at that level? Could we even use our platform at World Rugby to secure a law change with regards to Under 20s?

GeordieFalcon wrote:That' doesn't take into account we have a nugget as a head coach.

This is primarily who should be judged on this yardstick. He got there for a while, but now he's been dipped. The point is he should have the required quality of players available at his disposal.

With regard to Moriarty I am not sure what England could do. They picked him for every age group level. He was at an Premiership academy largely paid for by the RFU. I suspect he always intended playing for Wales and used the English system to get there.

As for tying players in to England given that the Saxons no longer play all England need to do is designate the U20's as the second team and this would tie any players of eighteen and over. This is how Wales tied in Steven Shingler and prevented him playing for Scotland. In the case of Moriarty it would have tied him to England if he played for them. If he chose not to because of the tie it would have stopped him wasting a development spot.

There's not too many teams you can play against to tie yourself at present. If the u20s was designated by world rugby it would help on that point but I'd imagine they are deliberately leaving it to unions.