England Summer Tour - Part 2

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Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]

The attrition rate seems huge at the moment. Luckily if EJ does pick the sarries flanker as launchburys replacement then he's a quality replacement. Surely we can't afford many more injuries though if this tour is to be a success

It's apparently a calf niggle, so not sure whether that one can be blamed on Eddie. Injuries occur in training regardless of who the coach is, and this one doesn't sound too serious.

Also to clarify on my above post with information gleaned from a different article, Shields training on Tuesday with the squad was notable as he did not train on Monday due to jetlag protocol. So it would really be asking a lot for him to show enough on Tuesday and Wednesday to make it into Thursday's team announcement. More likely he'll he used towards the end of the tour or in the autumn.

Seeing Pichot's comments about Brad Shields has made by sympathize with the player a good deal more. I can understand where Pichot is coming from but it's not particularly fair to single out someone like that.

I've never had a problem with the selection of Shields in principle, I just thought there are plenty of Premiership players who were worth trying first. Now that Jones has him in the squad, I hope he goes well, and manages to shake off the jibes coming his way from all directions.

England camp producing some videos. George & Daly in this one:

He's not a million miles away from Ross Moriarty. Born in England to Welsh parents, university in England, first pro contract in England, England U20s, played all his club in England and got selected for Wales, now is moving back.

I think Moriarty returned to Wales in his childhood for school, but I'm not sure if that would be enough for a residency qualification, because he moved back to England before being selected for Wales.

I have no problem with Moriarty playing for Wales (other than I wish he'd chosen England, but he's welcome to his choice) but I don't remember the same scrutiny as Shields, especially not World Rugby chiefs saying the game is losing something.

The thing that seems to be used most as a stick to beat Shields with is the home-based policy the RFU and the PRL have agreed on. But that really doesn't have anything to do with anyone else. If PRL is satisfied that Shields is committed to a PRL club and are willing to allow the RFU to pick him, then it's up to the England coach.

I also don't think we'll see him in T1, if at all this tour. He won't be the main story.

Personally I think Shields should be tied to NZ because of his U20 cap, as all players should be tied on U20 caps. But as he is not I have no problem with him being selected.

Pichot is correct. England have set a new low by selecting a player that hasn’t even lived in the country for 1 second. Brad deserves all the negative attention that comes his way. It’s interesting to note that the wheels of ‘his’ Hurricanes have fallen off since his selection for England. He’s not playing well enough to lead that team. The guy should do the honourable thing and stay in England after his pretence to be English and let the Hurricanes find a more focused player and captain to get them back on track. They have a chance to win SR this year but not with a leader with his eye on England riches.

ebop wrote:...England have set a new low by selecting a player that hasn’t even lived in the country for 1 second...

He doesn't need to have lived in England, he has English parents. There are plenty of people around the world who are citizens of countries in which they have never lived. Owen Hargreaves played football for England after being born in Canada, and moving to Germany. He had only one English parent but no-one thought he wasn't entitled to play football for England. Some Canadian fans were apparently a bit miffed but I don't recall them moaning about "new lows".

There are plenty of rugby players who have represented national teams without even speaking the national language. If you are playing identity politics, then that's usually regarded as a worse sin but, again, no-one has ever moaned about "new lows" being set when that's happened in the past.

ebop wrote:Pichot is correct. England have set a new low by selecting a player that hasn’t even lived in the country for 1 second. Brad deserves all the negative attention that comes his way. It’s interesting to note that the wheels of ‘his’ Hurricanes have fallen off since his selection for England. He’s not playing well enough to lead that team. The guy should do the honourable thing and stay in England after his pretence to be English and let the Hurricanes find a more focused player and captain to get them back on track. They have a chance to win SR this year but not with a leader with his eye on England riches.

Christ this is some comedy gold.

Its good to know that even with England's dip in form other fans are still interested and envious of the Red Rose.

ebop wrote:Pichot is correct. England have set a new low by selecting a player that hasn’t even lived in the country for 1 second. Brad deserves all the negative attention that comes his way. It’s interesting to note that the wheels of ‘his’ Hurricanes have fallen off since his selection for England. He’s not playing well enough to lead that team. The guy should do the honourable thing and stay in England after his pretence to be English and let the Hurricanes find a more focused player and captain to get them back on track. They have a chance to win SR this year but not with a leader with his eye on England riches.

Drinking midweek...must be bleak down in land of the permanent grey cloud or whatever its called.

You can't reason with an unreasonable internet troll. We don't need to defend or justify our actions to anybody let alone ebob. He is an example of the dunning kruger effect.

Only im allowed to question our players eligibility Yoda!!

Telegraph has a feature where eight of their rugby staff select the starting squad for the first Test. Four of them think Shields should start, while another thinks he should be on the bench.

That just seems daft to me, given that he's had so little time with the squad.

Its a bit of a vote of no confidence for all the young England flanker who've been doing well in the prem.

That being said who other than Wilson has stood out in the Prem? Armand not touring, Willis injured. If Robshaw gets the nod that's as much of a kick in the goolies as shields being picked if you've put the hard yards in yet get overlooked. At least shields has been playing well for a team that has been doing the business for most of the season. I would like Wilson start with curry as it sends the right message out. Plus those two will slow the rucks down hopefully allowing the other England forwards to suck air in through every orifice at altitude.

Wait wait wait.

Robshaw had one poor game against the baabaas in a crazy match not suited to him at the very end of an insanely grueling season where he hasn't stopped. He'll know he wasn't good enough too.

Up until that point he's carried on being one of the best 6's in the Prem and a top player for Quins and England.

It's still his shirt to lose or for someone else to stay good enough and fit enough to prize out of his hands.

I hear you yappy but is he the best six available? If we want to be the best surely we pick our best players and have no room for sentiment. If he was an all black he would have lost the shirt years ago. As for playing well for quins the only player who actually did his job well was merchant. The opta stats and league table don't lie. Should we perhaps get Tom wood back because he once played well for England? Happy to be proved wrong as I like Robshaw but just think we need faster players who are more effective at breakdown and carrying.

Suggestions in the Times that Brown will be FB this weekend.

Almost missed it though as it was an addendum to a story relating the appalling manner in which Dean Ryan chose to tell John Fletcher and Peter Walton they had been sacked as U18 coaches. Called them individually to one side during a formal dinner on Monday to tell them. I guess on the plus side it was face to face and not by fax.

15. Willie le Roux (Wasps, England, 41 caps)
14 S’busiso Nkosi (Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
13. Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks, 1)
12. Damian de Allende (DHL Stormers, 28)
11. Aphiwe Dyantyi (Emirates Lions, uncapped)
10. Handré Pollard (Vodacom Bulls, 26)
9. Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks, England, 11)

8. Duane Vermeulen (Unattached, 39)
7. Jean-Luc du Preez (Cell C Sharks, 10)
6. Siya Kolisi captain (DHL Stormers, 28)
5. Franco Mostert (Emirates Lions, 18)
4. RG Snyman (Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
3. Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls 36) / Wilco Louw (DHL Stormers, 6)
2. Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers, 14)
1. Tendai Mtawarira (Cell C Sharks, 98)

Replacements:
16. Akker van der Merwe (Cell C Sharks, 1)
17. Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers, 24)
18. Wilco Louw (DHL Stormers, 6) / Thomas du Toit (Cell C Sharks, 1)
19. Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers, 33)
20. Sikhumbuzo Notshe (DHL Stormers, 1)
21. Ivan van Zyl (Vodacom Bulls, 1)
22. Elton Jantjies (Emirates Lions, 24)
23. Warrick Gelant (Vodacom Bulls, 2)

What do you think of this lineup?

A lot of guys I don't know there as haven't seen much super rugby.
2 new caps on the either wing could be something England would look to exploit - expect a few early high balls.
Willie Le Roux will always be a guy to watch.

How is Vermeulen not attached to a club at the moment?

He'll be waiting to announce his next club

From BBC England team to face South Africa: Elliot Daly; Jonny May, Henry Slade, Owen Farrell, Mike Brown, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Nick Isiekwe, Chris Robshaw, Tom Curry, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Harry Williams, Brad Shields, Nathan Hughes, Ben Spencer, Piers Francis, Denny Solomona

Well worried about brown on the wing no cover bar Hughes for lock and surprised spencer and Francis make the bench.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well worried about brown on the wing no cover bar Hughes for lock and surprised spencer and Francis make the bench.

Brown on the wing and no lock cover are also my main concerns. I also question the option of Francis on the bench and Cipriani twiddling his thumbs - Cipriani is a better player than Francis, I suppose EJ is concerned about an injury to Farrell happening and doesn't trust Cips at 12 in that situation (probably fair enough!), though 10 Ford, 12 Slade, 13 Daly, 15 Cips would cover it amongst many other options.

EJ has gone from having 4 or 5 locks in his 23 to having 2...

Brown on the wing???? I'm completely lost

What is Eddie seeing that I am missing? Brown on the wing seemed a perverse choice before the Barbarian game, but during it he confirmed all our worst fears being skinned in defence and offering bugger all in attack.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Brown on the wing???? I'm completely lost

23 facking games mate

Robshaw and Brown must have a tape of Eddie doing something!

At least this quota rubbish is giving us a fighting chance.

I'm beginning to question Eddies calls, I know this is only a summer tour game and the result doesn't mean much, but even so, Brown doesn't offer us anything on the wing imho.

Hope we don't ship 60 points again.

I would imagine Robshaw covers lock...

Not sure Francis deserves his spot. Got on the end of a few tries for the BaaBaas game but thought he was quite leaky in defence.

With Billy V back in the fold I suspect they are expecting him to dominate the carrying like he has done in the past.
Brown and Daly will interchange a lot I suspect.
Apart from a few this is a team that a lot have been shouting for for a while now.

Nowell missing out is a bit of a surprise - is he injured?

propdavid_london wrote:

Nowell missing out is a bit of a surprise - is he injured?

He is a back, they are always injured apart from when they are heading for the hairdressers or Spa!

Now I may be wrong but haven't SA just picked two extremely fast wingers for this game? I can see them targeting brown a lot

Even as a fan of Brown, it strikes me as odd and risky to put him on the wing. I'd rather hoped we were past that. On the other hand, Eddie now has a very similar overall 6N W/L ratio to Lancaster...

carpet baboon wrote:Now I may be wrong but haven't SA just picked two extremely fast wingers for this game? I can see them targeting brown a lot

Might be another reason why the faster man is in the 15 spot.
Daly can cover a lot of ground very quickly - especially when tracking across in the sweeper position and covering tackles.

propdavid_london wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Now I may be wrong but haven't SA just picked two extremely fast wingers for this game? I can see them targeting brown a lot

Might be another reason why the faster man is in the 15 spot.  
Daly can cover a lot of ground very quickly - especially when tracking across in the sweeper position and covering tackles.

Very good point

I don't like Brown on the wing but he has started seven Tests in that position, and we won five of them, including one against New Zealand.

I suspect the decision is a desire to see whether Daly at full back boosts our attacking options, coupled with a need to retain Brown's defence. I can't beleive Brown is going to be a World Cup starter at wing, so it seems more like training wheels for Daly. I think you could only conceive of doing that if expect to play a gameplan to reduce the chance of Brown getting exposed there.

I hope we don't play a Brown at FB in defence/Daly at FB in attack strategy, because that won't tell us enough about Daly's FB defence.

We must also remember that Watson didn't exactly have a stormer at 15 in the 6N either....and he was many peoples 1st choice for a long time.

Maybe we sucker them into not worrying about attacks down Brown's wing then we swap him for Denny...

On a positive note - we have locks playing lock and a genuine back row for the first time in how long!
Youngs to provide Ford with snappier service than Care was giving him during the 6N, and more accurate box kicking to get May/Daly/Brown chasing.
Including that we have 3 genuine kicking options in 10, 12 and 13.

Decent ball carriers to supplement Billy V in Mako, George and Sinks. Someone who may be able to address the breakdown in 'Curry'.

My only real issue is the lack of bulk in the midfield (same issue I had in the 6N). And none of the options on the bench will change the game. (apart from some Solomona madness).

Slade/Brown and Robshaw need big games in my mind. Chance for Isekwe/Curry to properly put a marker in too.

Unknowns are Ben Spencer and Shields.

propdavid_london wrote:
Nowell missing out is a bit of a surprise - is he injured?

Not on tour. Like Kruis left behind for "routine" surgery I believe.

I was at dinner with someone whose son played age grade rugby with Isiekwe - he described him as a serious physical specimen, but unable to hold a candle to Itoje in the brains department. I suspect he is probably destined to play the Dave Attwood role - the guy who gets picked when the first choices are injured.

I think Brown is probably on borrowed time if Daly comes through at fullback. George and Sinckler have a great chance to establish themselves as first choice, and George will be helped by having Mako alongside him. The midfield isn't huge, but it gives lots of options, especially if Daly can get the hang of joining the line from fullback.

Brown is only there as a defensive help for Daly. Not sure why though. If your gonna test Daly at this level...flippin test him properly. Not by weakening our attacking wing.

Huge opportunity for Curry to put a stamp down. I honestly think he can aswell as he's a class act who has more power than people give him credit for and also brains.

The other one is Slade. That lad has an amazing chance now to make that 13 shirt his. He has the skills...now he needs to show he can do it consistently at this level.

The biggest factor though is the tactics! It's irrelevant who he plays if the tactics are as bad as they have been.

Daly's got an excellent rugby brain and Eddie's clearly a massive fan of his. I would imagine that he can slot into whatever role he's expected to without too many issues. If the 15 "experiment" turns out well he will be an excellent "luxury" player, able to play anywhere in the back 3 and 13 to a high standard.

I don't understand why Brown is on the wing. Maybe Eddie doesn't rate Solomona's defence highly enough to start him there. Still, bring him on with 20 minutes to go should see him at least get a run or two.

The fact that Hughes is on the bench alongside Shields points to Billy only being played for 50 minutes max. Robshaw is lucky to be starting given the debacle of his previous outing. Not entirely sure on the "2 locks" situation either. It could bite us, and badly. If Itoje gets an injury, we're left with a novice and a back rower playing at lock. Dangerous.

I'm looking forward to seeing Slade get a chance at 13. It could be make or break for him, but with Joseph, Tuilagi & Teo out and Daly being preferred in the back 3, it's really only between him and Lozowski for the 13 shirt. I expect him to get his chance next game.

Shame that Robson isn't getting his chance this game. Maybe he'll be on the bench next game? But what happens if Youngs gets injured again? Does Eddie call up Danny Care or does he continue with the uncapped guys on tour?

Interesting team that. Could see us win well or get whupped. Good to see a backrow and locks though for once.

Brown on the wing is a dangerous waste, and Francis must be one of the most average internationals out there.

Hughes is there as 2nd row cover as well. Think vunipola is going to be asked to do 70 or so minutes.

Times is pushing the narrative that this side means Jones does not trust Solomona, Hill or Cipriani. The selection of Brown on the wing does suggest that his time is numbered when Watson and Nowell return in the Autumn.

There is a direct quote from Jones saying "there are a couple of areas of his game we've found since he's been in camp that he needs to work on" about Cipriani. We may see Youngs and Ford replaced at the same time, hence Spencer on the bench.

Finally to the lack of Hill on the bench. Again the Times suggests that Shields may be covering second row as well as back row. The decision to go without specialist lock cover could be down to the combination of Launchbury being injured, worries over Billy and desire to get Shields involved.

LondonTiger wrote:Times is pushing the narrative that this side means Jones does not trust Solomona, Hill or Cipriani. The selection of Brown on the wing does suggest that his time is numbered when Watson and Nowell return in the Autumn.

By definition, a coach has less trust in players he leaves out, than those he selects. The question is whether Jones lacks sufficient trust in certain players to give them a go. Solomona is actually in the squad, so there's some degree of trust.

I've read that Spencer may have been preferred to Robson as back-up scrum-half because Jones wants someone who can match Young's kicking game. Another reading is that Jones may want to run with Robson with Cipriani in the same squad at some point. We just don't reallly know at the moment.

When a coach would rather trust a non-specialist it does suggest a serious lack of trust in the specialist.

Unless Eddie's comment about Cipriani was meant as a kick up the arse, I wonder if he can actually fix the areas he needs to work on in time to feature.

Why don't they just quit the effort with Cips. He's not going to play or challenge the world cup starting / squad.

They should have taken Smith or Joe Simmonds or someone instead.

Is Cipriani a specialist full back any more than Daly is?

I assume hes selected Daly at full back because he thinks hes the best option, and Brown on the wing because he sees the same things that Lancaster did.
Ill be honest I dont think Ill ever quite get Brown as a wing but this isnt the first time weve seen him played there in tests by different coaching set ups ...so there must be something in it.

One thing thats increasingly clear when you look at the backline, and the comments regarding Spencer over Robson, is that Jones really values all round footballing skills in his backs over out and out speed or power. Its one of the most Australian looking sets of backs England have ever fielded.

The forwards... its got to be the most dynmaic front five England have ever fielded too.

Thinking back a decade would anyone have ever imagined an England side with this kind of make up?


The bench .... well it just shows how much the withdrawls have hit England. Theres opportunities for player sure, but what was a strength for England during Jones' early tenure is now a weakness.