England Summer Tour - Part 2

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]

Expected IRB rankings on Monday....




Yep... that's clearest indication that the RFU should sack Uncle Eddie since coming 5th in the 6 Nations.

Great ti see southern hemisphere dominance restored so quickly.

lostinwales wrote:Nice to know our neighbours are so interested in how England plays. And soo much kind advice too. Where to start?

You lot being more gracious in defeat would be a good start.

Lol. This thread.

No9 wrote:Expected IRB rankings on Monday....




Yephow... that's clearest indication that the RFU should sack Uncle Eddie since coming 5th in the 6 Nations.

How does Wales beating Argentina put them above England?

I thought Wales was already above Argentina any way.

Do we look to change things around a bit?

1. Mako
2. LCD
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Shields
7. Curry
8. Billy

9. Robson
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Daly
14. Solomona
15. Brown

16. George 17. Sinkler 18. Genge 19. Hill 20. Wilson 21. Spencer 22. Loz 23. Cipriani

A bit more pace around the park and better impact from the bench?

I'd keep it pretty much the same but Launchbury back if fit. Robson lozowski in the bench.

The match was painful to watch in real time, as you saw English hope and dreams being snatched away. There wasn't as much at stake, but I can imagine that's how New Zealand supporters felt when France blew them away at the 1999 World Cup after being 24-10 ahead.

Probably because there wasn't as much at stake, I was able to watch the highights and enjoy the momentume shifts in a remarkable match.

Still don't really know what to make of this England team. Disciple was horrendous, and reminded me of the patch we went through under Johnson, which caused him to erupt in fury.



Some of the points being made about selection are bound to be right, and yet Mike Brown was probably the most villified choice in the last squad, and he had a good game. He's a bit like Kearney for Ireland: many Irish fans wanted him out of the team in Chicago, and he promptly helped get the win. Against Australia, many of his flaws were on display.

When you get out to such a good start, it seems off the mark to talk about combinations being wrong. They obviously worked fine for that initial spell. Instead, it seems more of a case of lack of nous, composure, control -you name it.

As 7 1/2 pointed out, two of the scores which helped get the Boks back on terms were soft tries given up by two of our best players: Itoje and Daly. George, Itoje and Mako were all guilty of giving up pemalties which gave the Boks better momentum, or killed our own.

Haven't a clue what team Jones will choose to field next, but I hope he goes for a selection which helps the team develop, rather than just worrying about how to counter South Africa.

Oh and solomona.

As much as I rate Daly, he was exposed at FB. He made some bad kicking choices and didn't look safe under the high ball. As much as we clamor to replace Brown, he's so safe there and we only realise this when he's not playing.

I'd love to see Solomona getting a start on the wing, him and May would scare the life out of SA if they get plenty of ball. The gas showed by May at the end was quite something, the guy is seriously quick.

With every game George and Sinkler start, they show why they are better as impact from the bench....it's a shame they're not grabbing the shirt.

On the plus side, Curry and Billy did quite well. Billy will be stronger in the next game and Curry was not phased and competed well. Slade seems to be getting good reviews but I think having the 3 x 10's made us lose something in midfield. I'd like to see Daly or perhaps even Loz, who both offer a running threat, something which neither Farrell or Slade really do.  

I thought Spencer looked very good when he came on, although obviously just a cameo. Youngs is just plodding away lately and kicking badly. I'd prefer the greater control of Spencer or the increased threat of Robson, Youngs seems to have neither of these at the minute.

Days positioning was good. Couple of bad kicks but hey ho it happens. Tremendously bad mistake for the try but thought he again looked great on attack and I think he looks much more threatening getting on the ball at 15.

Don't get me wrong, his attacking is fantastic. I just think we need to tighten up the defence across the board and Brown will steady the ship at the back. Daly has to be in the team though, he's a huge talent.

I don't remember him being weak in defence though. Brown was exposed for pace a couple of times. If you're talking high ball yeah browns better but don't think that s a reason to revert. Daly needs a run of games at 15.

Defence isn't just tackling. It's the high ball, it's the cleaning up behind the defensive line....both things that Daly struggled with. I see the point in sticking with Daly but if it's about the next game I'd be going with Brown personally.

I'm aware. Hence my comment about defence and not tackling.

We saw enough in that game to persevere surely? We should have come out the winners but it seems a little knee jerk to move away from the things we did well.

Sunday Times give a collective 104/150 to SA and 81/150 to England. Looking purely at the last 60 mi utes seems fair, but in a game we could have sneaked at the end, such a large disparity over the full 80 feels wrong.

It's stephen jones who does the scoring still? If so not surprising. The all about the seasoned grisly pro and england playing a style he personally doesn't want to see them move beyond. Hence an unlucky loss where we looked great ball in hand and using youngsters and not play cooper wooley would see loss for style points!

It all depends on what Jones wants from this tour I guess. Is he looking at the future more or is he wanting to win the next game?

Brown is a better FB than Daly currently, certainly in the defensive aspects of the game as well as kicking.

Personally, I'd move Brown back to FB and move Daly to wing or 13.

I'd do both and keep Daly there!

I think this piece in the Gruaniad explains nicely Englands issues
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/jun/09/england-south-africa

International rugby has changed in the past 18 months, as has the game in the European Champions Cup. It is more fluid, faster and places less reliance on set pieces.

England simply have not adapted I also think Farrell at 12 is a huge issue. He either plays 10 or is dropped. He sucks all the pace out of the backs at 12

Except our backs did really well. Strange article all in all as it's acknowledges that the pack was picked for the open game and not for the set piece. It ignores isiekwe was having his first real start but does nod the head to some strange referring but chosen to quote stats without context. As it is Farrell is probably the best 12 in international rugby at the moment.

Did you actually watch the match tj?

No 7.5 - it was more a general comment than specific to this match.

Farrells stats are not that good tho for supposedly the best 12 in the world 2 missed tackles 7 made and 28 m made going forward

Stats don't tell everything but the idea he is the best 12 in the world is laughable. He misses far too many tackles and his positioning in attack takes out space and time for the guys outside him. Play him at 10 or not at all.

Its just an opinion. He is suited to the game played in the ap and a few years ago in internationals / european cup. he is not suited to the modern international game at 12.

Sense of perspective, this was Ellis park at altitude with sa first black captain and their really good players available. It was always going to be difficult and we as England fans should applaud the Rugby sa played as some of their tries were brilliant. Yes we can say we blew it and we did with silly errors I mean the horrible bobble for Daly's howler made a huge difference. I actually thought we contributed massively to a great rest match. We have actually started producing quick ball again albeit for only 30 mins as the rest of the time we struggled with the altitude and the rampaging emotional sa. I think sa are a centre combination away from being really quite good. They need to keep Willie LA roux fit as he was outstanding and I loved fafs attitude, cracking scrum half. To end a losing streak sa at Ellis park is not the place to go.

We are playing catch up but personally I can see an improvement in attacking at the expense of defence and if or when we sort that we will be there or there abouts. If we get Shaun Edwards then we would instantly be better drilled, Wales impressed me yesterday as the space afford to the argies was none.

Farrell adds things in attack that can't really be measure using stats. Yes, he doesn't add a great running game, but his distribution and ability to make space for others it right up there. He is a good defender but often comes out of the line fast to disrupt the opposition attack, again not really showing on the stats.

I must admit, as a side we are not defending well though.

Thought it had to be as him and slade worked well to bring space to the backs really well. You now swith to defence and this has been done to death the rush defence of england is there to cut time or certainly has been with jones up to now. It's not important that tackles are missed as it's about forcing teams back inside. Saracens regularly have the most missed tackles in matches and have probably the best defence around.

Shall we put him into the billy vunipola section of isn't good enough?

We lost by 3 points. It's disappointing to lose, but it's hardly the worst result. We played some really good stuff in attack, although some of our clearout work was very poor and let us down. The defence struggled, especially with the pace that Faf de Klerk was putting on the game, but I think we require tweaks rather than an overhaul.

Brown had a good game. I criticised his selection on the wing beforehand but he did fine. Curry was impressive as well.

I'm not sure I'd make many changes for the second test. I'd bring Launchbury back in, and I think I'd still replace Marler, Hughes and Francis on the bench (as I would have for this game). But I don't think we need to change half the team to close a 3 point gap.

Discussion point and those with more knowledge feel free to correct me

Another structural issue is the lack of young England qualified players in key positions playing regularly for their clubs. Youngs, Care ., Wrigglesworth have been around for ages Are there any other options?. I don’t follow the AP enough to know but I don’t hear of up and coming SH or 10s being mentioned at all but it seems like that rather than giving youth a chance the AP teams prefer to buy in talent from abroad. Ireland, Scotland,Italy and to some extent Wales use their clubs to develop players for the international side.

Yes its often forced by circumstance ( but also by deliberate intent) but Scotland have youth available in all the key positions and these guys are getting a lot of time playing first team rugby – take George Horne. Would he be getting first team game time if he played in England? How many under 20s players get a lot of first team exposure?

Scotland – George Horne. Adam Hastings, Blair kinghorn, both Fagersons, Bradbury, Ickle Jonny all played first team rugby before they were 21.These guys have gained experience to allow them to step up to the international setup while still in their teens or early 20s. If they played in England would they be sitting on the bench behind imports?

TJ is right we do need a real chopping tackle 12. When sa decided to just stick to what they know they flooded 10-12 channel and whipped the ball wide to their good winger and he scored some nice tries, could have been 3 if their 13 had more about him. Ford and Farrell tackle too high. Farrell at 10 for me when we have centre options instead of 4 fly halves on the squad.

I was sat thinking how the game was made for the likes of Simmonds, his work rate and tackling and speed were missed. Robshaw as I said earlier is now too slow and makes the wrong decisions getting isolated more often than not now.

Recent england players under 20 getting starts. Curry curry isiekwe smith.

Put barritt in then at 12. Prefer having someone who can do everything though.

Someone needs to teach George Ford to tackle legs rather than chest. Any good sized player tends to crash through and bowl him over gaining a good few yards.

Say what you like about Cipriani but his tackling technique is better than Ford's.

TJ wrote:Discussion point and those with more knowledge feel free to correct me

Another structural issue is the lack of young England qualified players in key positions playing regularly for their clubs.  Youngs, Care ., Wrigglesworth have been around for ages  Are there any other options?.  I don’t follow the AP enough to know but I don’t hear of up and coming SH or 10s being mentioned at all but it seems like that rather than giving youth a chance the AP teams prefer to buy in talent from abroad.  Ireland, Scotland,Italy and to some extent Wales use their clubs to develop players for the international side.

Yes its often forced by circumstance ( but also by deliberate intent) but Scotland have youth available in all the key positions and these guys are getting a lot of time playing first team rugby – take George Horne.  Would he be getting first team game time if he played in England?  How many under 20s players get a lot of first team exposure?

Scotland – George Horne. Adam Hastings, Blair kinghorn, both Fagersons, Bradbury, Ickle Jonny all played first team rugby before they were 21.These guys have gained experience to allow them to step up to the international setup while still in their teens or early 20s.  If they played in England would they be sitting on the bench behind imports?

‘And to some extent Wales’?! Bizarre!

TJ wrote:Discussion point and those with more knowledge feel free to correct me

Another structural issue is the lack of young England qualified players in key positions playing regularly for their clubs.  Youngs, Care ., Wrigglesworth have been around for ages  Are there any other options?.  I don’t follow the AP enough to know but I don’t hear of up and coming SH or 10s being mentioned at all but it seems like that rather than giving youth a chance the AP teams prefer to buy in talent from abroad.  Ireland, Scotland,Italy and to some extent Wales use their clubs to develop players for the international side.

Yes its often forced by circumstance ( but also by deliberate intent) but Scotland have youth available in all the key positions and these guys are getting a lot of time playing first team rugby – take George Horne.  Would he be getting first team game time if he played in England?  How many under 20s players get a lot of first team exposure?

Scotland – George Horne. Adam Hastings, Blair kinghorn, both Fagersons, Bradbury, Ickle Jonny all played first team rugby before they were 21.These guys have gained experience to allow them to step up to the international setup while still in their teens or early 20s.  If they played in England would they be sitting on the bench behind imports?

Looking at 9 and 10 in particular, Youngs, Care, Ford and Farrell have all been around for a while, but that's because they started so young for their clubs and eventually England.

Youngs - 28, Leicester debut - 18, England debut - 21
Care - 31, Leeds debut - 17, England debut - 21
Ford - 25, Leicester debut - 16, England debut - 20
Farrell - 26, Saracens debut - 17, England debut - 20

Although I think we will need to start bringing another 9 through, I doubt there are a host of 19 year old scrum-halves with amazing potential being kept out by foreign players. If they did exist, they'd definitely get a chance, as all these players did.

I don't think imports are as much of an issue as you might make out. Comparing with Scotland for example, Scotland have 2 teams and 30 starting positions available. England have 12 teams 180 starting positions available. England could have 90 non-English qualified players playing and still have 3x English-qualified players playing than Scotland could manage.

Looking at the players coming through, on tour you've got Isiekwe (20), T Curry (19) and Earl (20) in South Africa as well as B Curry, Smith and Ibitoye in the Under 20s who are all getting regular gametime in the Premiership. I think if players are good enough, they'll make the cut.

Yoda wrote:TJ is right we do need a real chopping tackle 12. When sa decided to just stick to what they know they flooded 10-12 channel and whipped the ball wide to their good winger and he scored some nice tries, could have been 3 if their 13 had more about him. Ford and Farrell tackle too high. Farrell at 10 for me when we have centre options instead of 4 fly halves on the squad.

I was sat thinking how the game was made for the likes of Simmonds, his work rate and tackling and speed were missed. Robshaw as I said earlier is now too slow and makes the wrong decisions getting isolated more often than not now.

Do these centres exist? Lozowski, Francis and Slade are converted fly-halves, although they play a lot at centre for their clubs.

We've got Tuilagi, Te'o, Joseph and Marchant out. Luther Burrell? Sam Hill? Ollie Devoto? Sam James? Are any of these guys good enough?

No England qualified 12 is currently good enough unfortunately. Of our available squad members in sa lozowski is probably the best tackler. You could put him at 12 but you don't have a fast track bully that was needed yesterday. It's all very well being able to move the ball nicely when you can't vary your play and have someone taking the ball on. We used Slade to do that yesterday and he did alright but really you need a focal point in attack and defense in midfield. We didn't stop them on the gainline until 65 min when they ran out of steam a little bit. Then mako got binned and that was that unfortunately. You really make your own luck in Rugby and we compounded errors with stupidity and effectively gave sa too much ball and territory.

As I typed that I just had a thought eddy will probably pick brown at 12 next Sat, Robshaw will play regardless, mako will probably shoulder charge someone again and get sent off like yesterday and during the lions and then looked puzzled. Maro will continue to have a personal battle with faf and lose and we will probably have the game in the bag only for stupid errors to cost us.

It's stretching it a bit to suggest Farrell isnt an extremely good 12. Shortlisted player of the year.

majesticimperialman wrote:

No9 wrote:Expected IRB rankings on Monday....




Yephow... that's clearest indication that the RFU should sack Uncle Eddie since coming 5th in the 6 Nations.

How does Wales beating Argentina  put them above England?

I thought Wales was already above Argentina any way.

Wales where above Argentina, but its more about the number of points England lose by losing to a side 4 placed below them, which drops England so far they get leapfrogged by Australia and Wales. Lose again next week and their likely to drop below Scotland and lose the 3rd test and they'll likely drop below SA as well. End of this tour without a win and their likely to be in 7th Spot at the end of the 2018 season. Great going from Uncle Eddie, from 2nd place to 8th in a season.

Wow.... he really is the man to take England to the RWC...

Yup.

No9 wrote:
Wow.... he really is the man to take England to the RWC...

Do you remember these lot always giving it out over the last two years, earning their reputation as the world's worst fans? Well 5th place in the 6N and 5 straight losses later I guess they're a little better, a little. I wonder if Jones will be getting as many free passes now? I mean if Gatland came out with just half the BS that he does then Englanders on here would want him crucified. Funny when Jones does it he's either right or just being, funny. History tells us that Jones' honeymoon periods always end where-as Gatland is able to produce the goods at every team he coaches, fact.

Eddie Jones to Sam Moore earlier in the season; "Yeah mate ya dual qualified so I'll probably cap you soon mate. Come and train with us and if you don't think you're good enough you can go and play for little old Wales mate."

Baaahahaha 5th place in the 6N and another loss to the worst South African team in history. Well done Eddie mate!

majesticimperialman wrote:

No9 wrote:Expected IRB rankings on Monday....




How does Wales beating Argentina  put them above England?

I thought Wales was already above Argentina any way.

Wales were above Argentina, but its more about the number of points England lose by losing to a side 4 placed below them, which drops England so far they get leapfrogged by Australia and Wales. Lose again next week and their likely to drop below Scotland and lose the 3rd test and they'll likely drop below SA as well. End of this tour without a win and their likely to be in 7th Spot at the end of the 2018 season. Great going from Uncle Eddie, from 2nd place to 8th in a season.

Wow.... he really is the man to take England to the RWC...

By my calculations England only get passed by Australia. Wales are 5/100ths shy of leapfrogging them - and S Africa just miss out on getting above Scotland.

Team	04/06/2018	11/06/2018
NEW ZEALAND	93.99	93.99
IRELAND	89.11	88.05
AUSTRALIA	85.49	86.55
ENGLAND	86.23	85.18
WALES	84.45	85.13
SCOTLAND	83.83	83.83
SOUTH AFRICA	82.77	83.82
FRANCE	79.1	79.10
FIJI	77.93	77.93

If the results from the weekend are repeated for the next 2 weekends (ok Wales only have one more game v Argentina) then pecking order is NZ. AUS, IRE, WAL, SA,  SCO, ENG, FRA

And England drop below SA if they lose next week, but not below Scotland

mikey_dragon wrote:

No9 wrote:
Wow.... he really is the man to take England to the RWC...

Do you remember these lot always giving it out over the last two years, earning their reputation as the world's worst fans? Well 5th place in the 6N and 5 straight losses later I guess they're a little better, a little. I wonder if Jones will be getting as many free passes now? I mean if Gatland came out with just half the BS that he does then Englanders on here would want him crucified. Funny when Jones does it he's either right or just being, funny. History tells us that Jones' honeymoon periods always end where-as Gatland is able to produce the goods at every team he coaches, fact.

Eddie Jones to Sam Moore earlier in the season; "Yeah mate ya dual qualified so I'll probably cap you soon mate. Come and train with us and if you don't think you're good enough you can go and play for little old Wales mate."

Baaahahaha 5th place in the 6N and another loss to the worst South African team in history. Well done Eddie mate!

It must be terrible to be the only side in the 6N (bar Italy who really are a lower tier side) to lose to this supposedly pathetic England side, well done Gats you've done it again.

You got there before me. Wales are so bad!

mikey_dragon wrote:

No9 wrote:
Wow.... he really is the man to take England to the RWC...

Do you remember these lot always giving it out over the last two years, earning their reputation as the world's worst fans? Well 5th place in the 6N and 5 straight losses later I guess they're a little better, a little. I wonder if Jones will be getting as many free passes now? I mean if Gatland came out with just half the BS that he does then Englanders on here would want him crucified. Funny when Jones does it he's either right or just being, funny. History tells us that Jones' honeymoon periods always end where-as Gatland is able to produce the goods at every team he coaches, fact.

Eddie Jones to Sam Moore earlier in the season; "Yeah mate ya dual qualified so I'll probably cap you soon mate. Come and train with us and if you don't think you're good enough you can go and play for little old Wales mate."

Baaahahaha 5th place in the 6N and another loss to the worst South African team in history. Well done Eddie mate!

Mikey, you’re not exactly doing much to enhance Welsh fans’ reputations to be honest! A bit of irony in your post here I feel!

I know we have to put up with TitHEAD posting garbage on the welsh forums but better to just rise above it.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No9 wrote:
Wow.... he really is the man to take England to the RWC...

Do you remember these lot always giving it out over the last two years, earning their reputation as the world's worst fans? Well 5th place in the 6N and 5 straight losses later I guess they're a little better, a little. I wonder if Jones will be getting as many free passes now? I mean if Gatland came out with just half the BS that he does then Englanders on here would want him crucified. Funny when Jones does it he's either right or just being, funny. History tells us that Jones' honeymoon periods always end where-as Gatland is able to produce the goods at every team he coaches, fact.

Eddie Jones to Sam Moore earlier in the season; "Yeah mate ya dual qualified so I'll probably cap you soon mate. Come and train with us and if you don't think you're good enough you can go and play for little old Wales mate."

Baaahahaha 5th place in the 6N and another loss to the worst South African team in history. Well done Eddie mate!

It must be terrible to be the only side in the 6N (bar Italy who really are a lower tier side) to lose to this supposedly pathetic England side, well done Gats you've done it again.

Guys you came 5th in the 6N, I'm not exactly sure what's to brag about?

The Oracle wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No9 wrote:
Wow.... he really is the man to take England to the RWC...

Do you remember these lot always giving it out over the last two years, earning their reputation as the world's worst fans? Well 5th place in the 6N and 5 straight losses later I guess they're a little better, a little. I wonder if Jones will be getting as many free passes now? I mean if Gatland came out with just half the BS that he does then Englanders on here would want him crucified. Funny when Jones does it he's either right or just being, funny. History tells us that Jones' honeymoon periods always end where-as Gatland is able to produce the goods at every team he coaches, fact.

Eddie Jones to Sam Moore earlier in the season; "Yeah mate ya dual qualified so I'll probably cap you soon mate. Come and train with us and if you don't think you're good enough you can go and play for little old Wales mate."

Baaahahaha 5th place in the 6N and another loss to the worst South African team in history. Well done Eddie mate!

Mikey, you’re not exactly doing much to enhance Welsh fans’ reputations to be honest! A bit of irony in your post here I feel!

I know we have to put up with TitHEAD posting garbage on the welsh forums but better to just rise above it.

I'm not a representative for Welsh fans. I don't come on here to go out of my way to repeatedly wind up England fans, and we can't say the same for some/all of them. If you don't like my posts then you could always lob some pseudo insults, throw a tantrum, and delete your account again - you show a wannabe self-righteous attitude sometimes which is boring to say the least so I won't be missing you.

You are going out of your way to crow about losing to England. Remember. When you lost. Yikes. How. Bad. Is. Gatland.