England Summer Tour - Part 2

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]

Yoda wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

munkian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

munkian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

munkian wrote:Pssstt...Anyone wanna buy a 7 ?

From whom?

We have oodles. Swap you for a lock ? (not a 6)

Yeah but yours are either permanently broken or currently unproven in internationals (and we have the latter already with both Currys, Willises and Underhill)

I'm going to put it out there that James Davies hasn't much left to prove.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but personally I need to see more than two half decent appearances at international level from a guy who turns 28 this year.

Munkian the self appointed arch Bishop of banterbury. In answer to your question we don't need to buy any players just bring them home. There are probably more English players in the Welsh team than in England, isn't that right Geordie?

I will not bite...I will not bite...i will be strong...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it's great to see Daly and sinckler get further starts.  You need to give players a chance to bed in if they show they have the potential. Having said that it's nice to see what I'd consider our best lock pairing together.

I agree, Curry getting a good run aswell. Players need games to get used to the pace etc. I really don't like this policy of Eddie Jones dragging people off after 30 mins etc. Isiekwe is a physical player but he is young and needs games. Making him a scapegoat after 30 mins is pointless.
It hasn't helped Harrison etc who he's done it to previously.

Itoje needs an assured game this weekend. I don't want fireworks...just a composed effective game where he shows this much touted intelligence.

LondonTiger wrote:

munkian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

munkian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

munkian wrote:Pssstt...Anyone wanna buy a 7 ?

From whom?

We have oodles. Swap you for a lock ? (not a 6)

Yeah but yours are either permanently broken or currently unproven in internationals (and we have the latter already with both Currys, Willises and Underhill)

I'm going to put it out there that James Davies hasn't much left to prove.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but personally I need to see more than two half decent appearances at international level from a guy who turns 28 this year.

That is why we are picking Brad...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it's great to see Daly and sinckler get further starts.  You need to give players a chance to bed in if they show they have the potential. Having said that it's nice to see what I'd consider our best lock pairing together.

I agree, Curry getting a good run aswell. Players need games to get used to the pace etc. I really don't like this policy of Eddie Jones dragging people off after 30 mins etc. Isiekwe is a physical player but he is young and needs games. Making him a scapegoat after 30 mins is pointless.
It hasn't helped Harrison etc who he's done it to previously.

Itoje needs an assured game this weekend. I don't want fireworks...just a composed effective game where he shows this much touted intelligence.  

But Harrison did get a couple of chances and was not good at all. I don't regret us dumping him so quickly, although we will not know if he could have been molded into an international.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it's great to see Daly and sinckler get further starts.  You need to give players a chance to bed in if they show they have the potential. Having said that it's nice to see what I'd consider our best lock pairing together.

I agree, Curry getting a good run aswell. Players need games to get used to the pace etc. I really don't like this policy of Eddie Jones dragging people off after 30 mins etc. Isiekwe is a physical player but he is young and needs games. Making him a scapegoat after 30 mins is pointless.
It hasn't helped Harrison etc who he's done it to previously.

Itoje needs an assured game this weekend. I don't want fireworks...just a composed effective game where he shows this much touted intelligence.  

But Harrison did get a couple of chances and was not good at all. I don't regret us dumping him so quickly, although we will not know if he could have been molded into an international.

In all fairness he probably shouldn't have been picked at all...and I was one of the ones saying haul him off...however is it fair to only give someone 20 mins etc? Does that really tell us anything?

Thas where there is the balance. If someone is having a horrendous time as burrell was do you stick with them or pull them? From my point of view isiekwe won't suffer long term. He's still a baby in forwards terms and is as much protection as singling him out.

duplicate post thingy

7.5 was he actually playing badly though? We have heard that he was rushing out of the defensive line to quick but surely that can be sorted quickly at half time.

Itoje was having a poorer game...

GF Agree about Isekwe - EJ said post match that it wasn't anything that Isekwe did - but he wanted Shields on to try and change the game as he felt it was slipping away.
Kind of telling though that Isekwe is dropped completely for the 2nd test.

Its a shame there aren't mid week games on this tour.

It's at times like these when we really miss what Lawes brings to the game at lock (not 6), he has all the attributes of the best locks, but with mobility of a backrow and is better at closing out half backs than anyone we have.

Good point on Lawes. I also think Faf wouldn't have had half the space he had if Lawes had been on the pitch. The half back destroyer would have shut him down quick

GeordieFalcon wrote:Good point on Lawes. I also think Faf wouldn't have had half the space he had if Lawes had been on the pitch. The half back destroyer would have shut him down quick

I suppose it must focus the mind somewhat if you know that a guy that big is just waiting to flatten you.

Exactly...maybe FAF wouldn't have been running rampant all over the shop.

But we will never know, hes some player that FAF.

Surely someone else should be putting pressure on the SH when Lawes isn't there though.

Agreed GF.

Maybe a big, fast, athletic lock who looked to be putting the most pressure on from our defensive line shouldn't have been the person to go off at 30 mins!

No one else has the arm span , I wouldn't mind betting his arm span is wider than he is tall, once his arm hits he seems like an octopus, he just envelops the ball carrier. He doesn't look for the big hits all the time, only when it is really on. He rarely misses a tackle these days and England miss him badly, especially when Itoje is on such poor form.

There's a Times piece slating Jones for substituting Isiekwe early. When he did the same to Burrell and Harrison, pundits at the same paper celebrated it as astute, decisive thinking, and contrasted it with the programmed substitutions of Lancaster.

When Jones was first appointed, I wrote on this forum I feared Jones would cycle through our rich crop of young players if they didn't do what he wanted, ruining a lot of promising careers in the process. As it turns out, he did almost the opposite, staying loyal to a core of players over that record winning streak.

It is odd to see people now criticizing him for destroying careers when he hasn't done anything of the sort.

It certainly is hard on Isiekwe but Jones had just watched England give up 19 points in 16 minutes. We still had a narrow lead at that point, and he was probably hoping to hang on to it until half time (we didn't manage to do so). Once Jones decided he wanted Shields' experience on the pitch to help calm things down, there were only three realistic options: Itoje, Robshaw or Isiekwe. He could have taken Curry off, but the Sale man was doing all right, and Jones probably wanted to retain his speed.

For all that Itoje had a poor game, I can't believe anyone seriously believes it would have been better to take him off. That would only have made sense if Isiekwe was having a blinder. There's more of a case for switching Robshaw for Shields, although it would have taken experience off the pitch when Jones wanted to increase it. This is where it likely came down to how Isiekwe had performed while we were shipping points, and he was apparently AWOL at the rucks.

I have heard it said about Isiekwe that he is more powerful than Itoje but nowhere near as rugby smart. Would it have been better to leave him with the U20s? In hindsight, perhaps. Then again, I don't recall many questioning his selection for the tour, rather, Jones was getting it in the neck from some quarters for leaving Marcus Smith with the U20s, instead of developing his senior career further.

Isiekwe isn't likely to have had a bigger impact than Itoje and personally I'd disagree he was having a better game. Myself I'd have left if til halftime but have no problem with sub as the guys on the touchline have a shed.load more data and realm time analysis. I'll just say I'm not worried about tomorrow's result. I expect us to win handily unless something weird happens.

When was Isiekwe given the shepherds hook, 35 mins? That’s insulting isn’t it?

ebop wrote:When was Isiekwe given the shepherds hook, 35 mins? That’s insulting isn’t it?

Steve Hansen once substituted a prop after 33 minutes.

Rugby Fan wrote:

ebop wrote:When was Isiekwe given the shepherds hook, 35 mins? That’s insulting isn’t it?

Steve Hansen once substituted a prop after 33 minutes.

Was the substitution made during a game after four consecutive losses in a row? Eddie has lost the plot. We all picked it. No one that smarmy doesn’t self-destruct after multiple losses in a row.

3 losses sweety pie.

5 in a row including a drunk team of ring ins

Your loyalty to Eddie is endearing 7.5, but as a true-blue ocker, he don’t give a sheiiiit about England and his players. That’s the problem with foreign mercenaries that are paid the big bucks. Stuart Lancaster had class and was a gentleman. Eddie Jones is a sell out hired gun that people put the boot into. That’s your guy.

ebop wrote:When was Isiekwe given the shepherds hook, 35 mins? That’s insulting isn’t it?

Gatland also made a substitution at the half hour mark. Funnily enough, in a tour match in South Africa. You must think these Kiwi coaches are very insulting.

ebop wrote:5 in a row including a drunk team of ring ins

Does contributing nothing but mocking snideness not get boring for you? I assume you are tired of picking fights with Irish posters and wanting to get your jollies here?

He's here to learn lt. He's only started to follow rugby recently hence his posting.

I have to admit thogu I've learned something from him as I didn't realise nz count non capped games to their records.

Incidentally can't remember if I made this point so apologies if it's a repeat bit I really enjoyed the match last week. Blooming good game which is he overall point isn't it? Would I prefer another loss like that or a ein like the infamous borthwick italy game win....honestly give me the loss.

LondonTiger wrote:

ebop wrote:5 in a row including a drunk team of ring ins

Does contributing nothing but mocking snideness not get boring for you? I assume you are tired of picking fights with Irish posters and wanting to get your jollies here?

It's a testament to the fragile all black supporters ego. They are so scared they will loose they have to be as obnoxious as possible. They know they have no rugby tallent themselves so live through their team, so any hint that a team may be catching them has to be met with arseholery of the highest order.

carpet baboon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

ebop wrote:5 in a row including a drunk team of ring ins

Does contributing nothing but mocking snideness not get boring for you? I assume you are tired of picking fights with Irish posters and wanting to get your jollies here?

It's a testament to the fragile all black supporters ego. They are so scared they will loose they have to be as obnoxious as possible. They know they have no rugby tallent themselves so live through their team, so any hint that a team may be catching them has to be met with arseholery of the highest order.

That’s a bit harsh. A response like this makes me think you’ve lost your bundle, like Eddie Jones has.

carpet baboon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

ebop wrote:5 in a row including a drunk team of ring ins

Does contributing nothing but mocking snideness not get boring for you? I assume you are tired of picking fights with Irish posters and wanting to get your jollies here?

It's a testament to the fragile all black supporters ego. They are so scared they will loose they have to be as obnoxious as possible. They know they have no rugby tallent themselves so live through their team, so any hint that a team may be catching them has to be met with arseholery of the highest order.

Geez if that isnt the single biggest pen*is envy comment Ive seen for a while. My pre-conceptions of baboons have definitely been altered.

Ebop telling them how it is and England-lover the Oracle not showing up as their knight in shining armour

carpet baboon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

ebop wrote:5 in a row including a drunk team of ring ins

Does contributing nothing but mocking snideness not get boring for you? I assume you are tired of picking fights with Irish posters and wanting to get your jollies here?

It's a testament to the fragile all black supporters ego. They are so scared they will loose they have to be as obnoxious as possible. They know they have no rugby tallent themselves so live through their team, so any hint that a team may be catching them has to be met with arseholery of the highest order.

I have met a lot of Kiwi sports supporters over the years, and in general found them to be well balanced, generous, humble and knowledgeable about their sport. Includes that is why it saddens me we rarely see that from AB fans on here. It is a shame as it would be fun to discuss rugby with people who truly love the sport.

That's because LT I don't think real nz fans would post on here, he's probably a plastic fan from England who seeks glory. All the kiwis I know are great ambassadors of the game and know their stuff. They prefer to rip it out of the Aussies in my experience. I like the genuine Welsh fan too because they live and breathe the community that Rugby has given Wales. The best ever rugby chat I have had was with some lovely scarlet fans at a preseason friendly against bath. Knowledgeable, reasoned and passionate.

If we ignore them they will go away and bother someone else.

Yoda wrote:They prefer to rip it out of the Aussies in my experience.

Where do you reckon Eddie Jones comes from? It’s not my fault England don’t have any half decent home grown coaches to lead their national team and they pick an Aussie. The whole situation is like a red rag to a bull. An Aussie coaching England. It’s a beautiful thing that deserves all it gets.

Very important game for the English today and I actually expect them to win. I think they will get their defensive line better sorted this match.

eirebilly wrote:Very important game for the English today and I actually expect them to win. I think they will get their defensive line better sorted this match.

Bloody hope so Billy. I'll be sat here in Cambodia on my phone tuning in, hoping we don't lose power (for the 50th time today). C'mon lads!!

G'Luk with that Pooly.

Its one solid pack that from South Africa.

Superb tap tackle from Farrell to stop a certain try.

Bit of Deja vu here...

Well this is familiar.

England all over South Africa and shredding their defence with brilliant quick ball and excellent hands in midfield. Line-out working superbly, and Billy Vunipola making good carries early on. All this after an excellent effort to turnover a Saffer scrum 5m out and the perfectly-executed tap tackle by Farrell.

12-0 after 14. Any chance of holding this lead?

England off to a brilliant start ... again. I wonder if they will be able to sustain it this time ?

Farrell and De Klerk badly need to calm down.

Getting tasty out there.

De Klerk is having a really off day. He has been very poor.

The Beast through the middle making loads of ground and then a poor missed tackle from Itoje leads to an SA try.

Blimey ! Vermuelen barged across the line with brute strength for that try ! Defenders brushed aside like flies...

England under the pump, conceding too many penalties and kicking too much possession away.

Itoje with a very sneaky kick to De Klerk and Mako Vunipola taking a swipe at a player on the ground. Farrell needs to calm the boys down or there will be a Yellow card...

Tempers getting frayed out there...

Mako bit lucky to stay on the pitch then !

Vunipola a very lucky boy - open handed strike to the face is a yellow.

Utterly brainless though!