England Summer Tour - Part 2

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Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]

Anyone listening to her interviewing EJ now (and last week) can see why Youngs walked off. He knew what was coming.

Lol. I assume no 9q youve pointed this all out to irish fans that a commentator has said that ryan is already world class?

Reports of England players having arguments with fans down the tunnel - EJ needs to get a hold on this!

Did itoje kick faf in the first half? When showing the replay for mako's penalty for soaping the Saffer the first angle seemed to show him swing his boot at fat. But all other replays stopped before it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. I assume no 9q youve pointed this all out to irish fans that a commentator has said that ryan is already world class?

... have no idea what your talking about.

Didn't think you would 9

Dumb just plain dumb

RDW_Scotland wrote:Reports of England players having arguments with fans down the tunnel - EJ needs to get a hold on this!

England do it.. its passion and pride, being upset with a loss... Any other nation do it and its Thugs, should face bans, etc..

Lol. Good one no 9

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't think you would 9

Are you going to explain then ...

Lol. You're funny mate.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. You're funny mate.

I take that as no then..... Guess, we need to put this down to one of your usual posts that state or infer things posters have never said...

As Trump would say

FAKE NEWS...

Well if you're with trump it proves it then. Thanks for acknowledging!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well if you're with trump it proves it then. Thanks for acknowledging!

There you go again, making up your own reality...

How does, quoting someone, mean that your a "supporter" of them.. In fact, I believe Trump to be one of the biggest bell ends ever..

But see conversing with you inst going to go anywhere... So I'm off to do something more productive before this evening game.

Toodle pip old boy....

Brendan wrote:I can't understand how England for the second week in a row let a lead go.  They must have talked about what they should have done last week.  They never kicked goals to keep the board ticking over which resulted in frustration as they had no reward for any effort.

For SA they need to address their starts.  Not many teams will be so accomadating.  Players seem to be enjoying their rugby again

England's tackling was poor.

No 9 / 7.5 - I don't want this thread ruined by your squabbling. Please just ignore each other. 

RDW_Scotland wrote:No 9 / 7.5 - I don't want this thread ruined by your squabbling. Please just ignore each other. 

England Rugby already ruined it.........

I don't accept that rdw. If you feel either is wumming ban that person .

Typical English thing is to lay blame at feet of Refs....vs Germany at World Cup 2010 football springs to mind. If you dont play the game as you should and dont perform then you are relying on lady luck to do you a turn. All refs seem to have a slightly different take on laws of the game...and inconsistency in application of the laws definitely needs addressing. However this is widely know by media...fans..players and coaches thus we shouldnt be using it as an easy out as to why we lost.

I rarely hear the All Blacks moaning about ref decisions. Its a cop out excuse and does nothing in long term to address the glaring issues which are costing us games and one of them im sorry to say is NOT refs!

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't accept that rdw. If you feel either is wumming ban that person .

Believe it or not we don't actually want to ban people unless we have to 

That's a silly point ozzy as most fans post about refs. You would surely acknowledge my point that an incorrect knowledge of the laws is an issue though?

And tbf that my line rdw if you feel me responding to that is out of order fair enough ban me. I'm not going to ignore points made even if it's perceived points scoring .if you feel I'm winding people up for deliberate reaction ban me. I don't do it so if you think I'm overstepping fair enough but I'll most likely play to my lines anyway and deal with it.

Eddie Jones trying an approach that has worked in previous season but isn't working now.
Players that aren't at this level - Ford in particular looks like a boy playing a mans game in test match rugby.  Ben Youngs is just about competent at this level and nothing more.
A pack that look like they are being forced to employ an approach that they know isn't working, they all look pissed off hence a lot of the discipline issues.  Billy and Mako looked particularly apathetic today and started to lose it.
England can't find a ground hog back row, despite a 12 team professional setup, pretty astounding.  You look at O'Mahony vs Pocock today, two masterclasses in breakdown play.  England need a ground hog to turn the breakdown woes around.
Centres can only be fixed by fixing the half backs because Farrell needs to be moved to 10.
About the only part of the team that is ticking right now are the back three, Daly and May are quality.  But even then Brown on the wing is bizarre.

Drop Ford, not international quality.  Farrell at 10 with some sound sound centres even if they aren't exceptional.
Drop Mike Brown, if you are going to play Daly at 15 have two wings with him in the back three, the whole babysitting thing with Brown is nonsense.

Whatever is going on with the discipline, Jones needs to get on top of it.  Itoje and the Vunipola's had an attitude today.  On that note Billy looks a shadow of his former self, the way he got stepped by Vermuelan being a prime example.  The old Billy wouldn't have been so half-hearted in going for that tackle.  The other discipline issues were just really stupid, add Hughes and Sinckler to the above players.

Time to sort it out before the World Cup, but not that much time.  Just my two cents.

One final note, Shields was a passenger.

Wow. A ten not international quality but equaling the record number of wins. Well done to the other 14. Uber world class.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wow. A ten not international quality but equaling the record number of wins. Well done to the other 14. Uber world class.  

He is not remotely international level in my opinion, if you disagree then we'll have to agree to disagree. In terms of home nation pecking order alone I would put him behind Sexton, Russell and Biggar. In fact I would put him behind Patchell, Carbery and his team mate Farrell on top of that. Ford needs a dominant pack and front foot ball to get his game going. What we are seeing is that behind a pack that isn't dominant he is a passenger.

owen10ozzy wrote:Typical English thing is to lay blame at feet of Refs....vs Germany at World Cup 2010 football springs to mind. If you dont play the game as you should and dont perform then you are relying on lady luck to do you a turn.

It's not lady luck to expect the referee to do their job competently, whether it's Lampard being awarded a clear goal or Shields getting a clear penalty try.

Hey no worries like I said we've just equalled the record without a 10. We have obviously an amazing other 14. Happy with that.

Yes duty. I'll back a ref all day over arbitery decisions. This ain't that.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't accept that rdw. If you feel either is wumming ban that person .

Believe it or not we don't actually want to ban people unless we have to 

Really?! I was banned last week for 5 days for objecting to Mikey’s wumming and English bashing on this very thread! He was allowed to carry on scot free. Bans come easy, as far as I can see.

It was our pack that lost it, as for shields a passenger I thought he was alright and unlucky not to get a few turnovers. Ref was alright, England are just thick as mince not taking three points when on offer, giving away too many silly pens, going wide too early. Oh well we had a couple of good years now back the mediocrity of the late naughties.

Congratulations to SA, deserved winners.

England deservedly lost after not learning almost any of the lessons from last week.

Jones backed underperforming players to turn things around, and their failure should result in significant changes for the final test. A number of the players are too safe & complacent in starting, and need a taste of the bench or being fully dropped for a while to see if that helps their focus and hunger to up their game. Billy's comments after the first test worried me, and seem to be indicative.

I'd have pretty much all of today's bench starting next week. In particular Spencer. Youngs hasn't been in good form for a while, with his speed and quality of service a way off what was required the last couple of weeks.

Hmm. I'd question most of that as well. In particular young a form for a while given he's coming back from injury.

Yoda wrote:It was our pack that lost it, as for shields a passenger I thought he was alright and unlucky not to get a few turnovers. Ref was alright, England are just thick as mince not taking three points when on offer,  giving away too many silly pens,  going wide too early. Oh well we had a couple of good years now back the mediocrity of the late naughties.

Are we going early because of a lack of options? Got to get big carriers running off of Ford's shoulders otherwise why select him? He's the best English flyhalf at playing flat and pulling defenders out if position. Stop playing off of 9 and start the forwards running off of 10. It'll get the Boks defence moving around and leave space for the 9 to snipe.

Our lack of carrying ability in the midfield is hurting us. Farrell offers none and Slade isn't getting much joy.

Always going to be a balance but the offer from te'o from th bench is a big difference from the first part of jones bench. Will be interesting going into the AI s as Tuilagi may well finally become available and of he comes back to being a viable (world class?) Option.

The tuilagi ship has sailed. I get the impression England are caught in a cross roads where they want to play fast and loose but we don't have the personel for that. The south African game plan is simple, get the ball and pump legs smash get up and repeat. In defense they are the same. They wanted it more we were rudderless under pressure and instead of match fire with fire we tried to set up improbable plays in the wrong areas of the pitch. We were quite measured in the first half then didn't stick to the plan. Players want to one thing but the system seems to go against their nature hence they look lost in second half.

This reminds me of the worst game I've seen live from England vs France at home 2009 I think. We raced to a 20 point lead and then capitulated. You could see players looking at each other not having a scoobie do what to do.

Why do you feel the Tuilagi ship has sailed? He need a to prove he's back fot and on fork but given his age there's no need to write him off. I think the rest of your post lacks a little depth in what you mean tbh.

That's your opinion, fair play I'm not getting into a personal spat with you. I'll let you and no9 do that.

It's not really a spat. The guys 27. He's coming back from injury and realistically if he stay fit he'll be in the squad.

You might as well have Manu on the pitch bring useless along with everyone else

Lol. Good one geen.

We need to go and poach Shaun Edwards, pay the man what he wants.

Manu opted out of this tour so he could have a full preseason to get himself fully ready for the new season. He showed flashes of his old self towards the end of last season. He's exactly what England need to give their midfield some direction. Two many chiefs and not enough Indians between 10 and 13 at the minute.

TightHEAD wrote:We need to go and poach Shaun Edwards, pay the man what he wants.

Would that fix the driving maul and the forwards lackluster play in attack and defence?

Let's face it the guy was our main option as world class before his injury problems. If he gets back to that and stays fit he's a massume bi us for us. We're not regularly discussing him due to those problems but. ....

formerly known as Sam wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:We need to go and poach Shaun Edwards, pay the man what he wants.

Would that fix the driving maul and the forwards lackluster play in attack and defence?

He won't make it any worse.

At least as fans we would know that Edwards has high standards and won't take the Poopie being served up by our players week after week game after game.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Yoda wrote:It was our pack that lost it, as for shields a passenger I thought he was alright and unlucky not to get a few turnovers. Ref was alright, England are just thick as mince not taking three points when on offer,  giving away too many silly pens,  going wide too early. Oh well we had a couple of good years now back the mediocrity of the late naughties.

Are we going early because of a lack of options? Got to get big carriers running off of Ford's shoulders otherwise why select him? He's the best English flyhalf at playing flat and pulling defenders out if position. Stop playing off of 9 and start the forwards running off of 10. It'll get the Boks defence moving around and leave space for the 9 to snipe.

Our lack of carrying ability in the midfield is hurting us. Farrell offers none and Slade isn't getting much joy.

I think it is a bit of all that.  But, to me, they seemed a shot team.  No petrol in the tank and some appeared mentally switched off or burned out.  We have seen many of these guys play with more aggression and physicality, hitting the rucks harder, hitting into contact harder.  Without that, the absence of ball carriers in the mid-field becomes more glaring.  Ford, not my favourite player, had no ideas at all.  But he had no help either.   The few times England had some go forwards they appeared to be frantic and eventually lost the ball.    And finally, what is with Mike Brown?  Nice try, but dropping kicks?  Also missing easy tackles? Or making weak attempts.

Not sure if the solution is on the roster in SA, but I would like to see a change for the third test.  If for no other reason to see how a different approach might fare.  Many of the players on the roster are players Jones inherited.  Some of them, given a rest will be better.  Others may need to be replaced.  And there are players coming back from injury too.

doctor_grey wrote:

Brendan wrote:I can't understand how England for the second week in a row let a lead go.  They must have talked about what they should have done last week.  They never kicked goals to keep the board ticking over which resulted in frustration as they had no reward for any effort.

For SA they need to address their starts.  Not many teams will be so accomadating.  Players seem to be enjoying their rugby again

England's tackling was poor.

True. It has been poor. Surely they can focus on it during the week. You know your in trouble when front row players are making 20m through gaps.

Ford is grand and England going forward are fine once the backline is going. Not sure Ford can be blamed for poor pack work.

Again if you lose a lead get a shot at goal get some points. Build the confidence

Heaf, fair enough. I think it becomes a bit of an issue in the try area for refs as the rules do change in other ways (e.g. knocking the ball out of play, holding up, etc.). If that is the rule, they made an error.

As for England generally, trying to think of a team from that limited South Africa tour squad they could put out that I would fear as I am another team's fan (going by the Bill Simmons method for those that follow NBA podcasting)

Genge - George - Sinckler (M Vunipola - Cowan-Dickie - Williams)
Launchbury (C) - Itoje (Isiekwe)
Simmonds - B Vunipola - T Curry (Wilson)

Spencer - Farrell (Robson - Cipriani)
Lozowski - Daly
May - Brown - Solomona (Earle)

The squad is not overly inspiring. Some good players though that should want an opportunity. 2 changes in the pack, 3 changes in the backline and only Shields/Ford/Slade get fully dropped. Should ensure continuity. Oh and change captain. Farrell is not a captain for the ref. There are leaders in a squad. A captain does not need to be the alpha dog, he needs to primarily be able to handle the ref.

The Vunipolas are there purely due to lack of other options in the squad (Marler and Hughes are not in the same class). Itoje looked tired but there are too many changes elsewhere to take him out. Simmonds is dynamic (really rate him though think he may turn out more of a 6 or an 8 who needs a big, carrying 6 like Ewers to be at his best). It is a dynamic pack with some serious carrying.

The backs is where I hammer. Depth in capped England SH's is poor and Youngs has not done enough. Ford is not as good as Farrell (who probably could do without getting battered at 12 all the time) and Lozowski has earned a shot in the centres. Slade has not done it in international play for m;. Daly is moved to 13. I don't like Brown, he is there because he has been better than Slade and Woodward may be a step too far. Solomona should get a prolonged opportunity to see if he can make the spot his own. Should be more defensively sound (Ford and Slade out; Lozowski and Daly in) and more direct in attack.

I have not gone too wild. One debut off the bench. Who there is not up to scratch?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry but SA shouldn’t be wnning this series but the analysis of why is lacking.

Why shouldn’t SA be winning this series? Some analysis of ‘what planet you are living on’ should be carried out

Cipriani made things happen today. Curry was England's best back rower. Wilson looked sharp when he came on.

"Experienced" players were woeful today. Mako and Itoje were shadows of their former selves. Billy looks broken again. Hughes and Sinckler were penalty machines and Youngs was once again off colour. But my biggest numpty award goes to Ford. Stupid decisions, woeful tackling and the look of someone clearly struggling.
I don't understand that if a player is off form they seem to be kept in the side. Ford, Brown, Robshaw, Marler. 3 out of 4 still in the 23. WHY?????
PLAY THE FORM PLAYERS.