England Summer Tour - Part 2

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]

Yep just watched it again Hazel and the SA 5 was clearly on his hands and knees just in front of the try-line when he stretched out and knocked the ball out of Shield's hands - cast iron YC and PT for me as he's out of the game and can take no part according to the laws.

No9 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Reports of England players having arguments with fans down the tunnel - EJ needs to get a hold on this!

England do it.. its passion and pride, being upset with a loss... Any other nation do it and its Thugs, should face bans, etc..

I know.

The Oracle wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't accept that rdw. If you feel either is wumming ban that person .

Believe it or not we don't actually want to ban people unless we have to 

Really?! I was banned last week for 5 days for objecting to Mikey’s wumming and English bashing on this very thread! He was allowed to carry on scot free. Bans come easy, as far as I can see.

Fake news!

Anyway you should discuss the match or face more of the same.

ebop wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry but SA shouldn’t be wnning this series but the analysis of why is lacking.

Why shouldn’t SA be winning this series? Some analysis of ‘what planet you are living on’ should be carried out

Yeah, SA were always gong to improve under Erasmus and they picked a pretty good team today. England put a few tries past them, that’s not bad.
Wales and Ireland experienced highs and lows under Gatland and Schmidt. Eddie will have this England team come good again, hopefully he’s a bit more humble the next time that happens.

ebop wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry but SA shouldn’t be wnning this series but the analysis of why is lacking.

Why shouldn’t SA be winning this series? Some analysis of ‘what planet you are living on’ should be carried out

Geez, the day I write something like that when my team is 2-0 down after being outplayed, outscored will be the day Ive lost it. I mean for a start, how completely disrespectful is that? Amazing how some fans teams dont lose even when they actually do...twice

Mako's now gone home for previously agreed family reasons

Well he's due a break and has been far from his best. That was excellent looking pack on paper yesterday and we just played into SA hands and made it an arm wrestle. Some of the handling from our forwards was truly awful in easy situations.

Where do we go from here???

(It would be nice if we could stick to rugby chat on here, the usual wums are really spoiling this site)

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well he's due a break and has been far from his best. That was excellent looking pack on paper yesterday and we just played into SA hands and made it an arm wrestle. Some of the handling from our forwards was truly awful in easy situations.

Where do we go from here???

(It would be nice if we could stick to rugby chat on here, the usual wums are really spoiling this site)

Yes agree, those thinking they won when they lost has no place here. Glad Mako’s taking a break as well, he needs to stick to playing rugby rather than continuously attacking the heads of opposition players, as he did here, and tried to twice on Barrett, but wasnt quick enough.

Sigh, any chance the adults can talk about the rugby?

Not sure why the calls for Brown to be dropped? He's been one of our best performers so far, even in his ill-suited wing position.

Forwards were in general faster and secured the breakdown better yesterday, a plus. Curry, Shields Vunipola looked good.

Ford is shot to bits and needs some time away from England. I can't see him doing anything other than crumbling again in the WC. Keep him around for thinking the group minnows where he shines (i.e. against weak defences where he has loads of time)

Not convinced by Slade. Some decent passing moves going on, but nothing really opening up defences. I don't think it's a coincidence that we've started leaking tries since JJ was dropped. JJ is a master at his defensive positions and making the right decisions.

Taylorman wrote:

ebop wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry but SA shouldn’t be wnning this series but the analysis of why is lacking.

Why shouldn’t SA be winning this series? Some analysis of ‘what planet you are living on’ should be carried out

Geez, the day I write something like that when my team is 2-0 down after being outplayed, outscored will be the day Ive lost it. I mean for a start, how completely disrespectful is that? Amazing how some fans teams dont lose even when they actually do...twice

To be fair South Africa arent that good at the moment so England losing 2-0 isnt a good result for them.

Lol. Wums out in force then! Hepburn coming in shame for genge picking up the unfortunate injury.

Utterly woeful.

Time to get shot of Eddie Jones and half that squad.

I have never really been a fan of Mike Brown but he is having a very good tour for me.

I am getting more and more underwhelmed with Itoje, I think he may need a break. He was superb when he first arrived but is going backwards at a rate of knots.

Composure and on field leadership is what is required for England. In both games, they got off to great starts only to allow South Africa to get under their skins. They got the England lads all wound up and dragged them down. Had England shown a lot more composure and focus then I believe that they would have won both tests.

Well as bad as England fans feel, at least we didn't wake up to news that we had lost to USA. Looks like we're not the only team to be struggling. It's also refreshing to see tier two teams having a crack. Geordie I feel for you mate concentrate on the great season falcons have had and don't let it spoil your day. Happy Father's Day everyone who has kids.

Yoda wrote:Well as bad as England fans feel, at least we didn't wake up to news that we had lost to USA. Looks like we're not the only team to be struggling. It's also refreshing to see tier two teams having a crack. Geordie I feel for you mate concentrate on the great season falcons have had and don't let it spoil your day. Happy Father's Day everyone who has kids.

To be fair it wasn't great from Scotland but it was a massively inexperienced team (11 players less than 10 caps) against a strong USA who are no mugs these days. They'll cause other tier 1 nations problems if they keep this up!

I'm a big fan of Owen Farrell but his frustration is showing.

Ford is a problem.
Nathan Hughes is never in a million years international standard.

Itoje is a major problem.
Sinkler is questionable
Slade is not taking his chance
Brown is showing class and why I wish he was 10 years younger.

The SA forwards look powerful , dynamic and fast. Ours look like an old vets team having a run out on a Sunday.

Paul Gustard is blatantly deserting a sinking ship

It's frightening to see how bad it's gone.

From the outside England have the players, but they seem to lack leadership during the game.
When it started to get a bit heated rather than showing leadership Farrell and Itoje seemed more intent on getting late hits in on Faf rather than trying to take control of the game.

I agree the sevens programme has really helped the USA get better. Admittedly it was an inexperienced Scotland just clutching at straws to make us English feel less crap! I think we can all agree that it's been a long couple of seasons and players and fans need a rest. Saying that I will be watching the rugby championship with interest, I think Argentina are going to find it a very long hard season and the boks forwards are just warming up for the all blacks. The kiwis already have the game plan sorted 'keep it away from their green orcs and run at the 13 channel.'

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'm a big fan of Owen Farrell but his frustration is showing.

Ford is a problem.
Nathan Hughes is never in a million years international standard.

Itoje is a major problem.
Sinkler is questionable
Slade is not taking his chance
Brown is showing class and why I wish he was 10 years younger.

The SA forwards look powerful , dynamic and fast. Ours look like an old vets team having a run out on a Sunday.

Paul Gustard is blatantly deserting a sinking ship

It's frightening to see how bad it's gone.

Ford's always a problem if you don't play a game plan where he gets the ball to attack the gain line with runners on his shoulder. We saw in the opening test he shredded the Book defence when given runners on his shoulders. That ended quickly and we went back to trying to rumble it up off of 9. Then we only give Ford the ball when it's nice and slow, when he's got no threatening runners in midfield and the Boks are all over him. Complete waste of time playing Ford in these conditions.

If we're going to play off 9 and wide the play Cipriani. That's how he plays at Wasps and how he likes to play. Ford likes to be on the ball a lot, as seen at Tigers where MOC's moronic one out tactics were ditched for the final game and Ford was allowed to play his way. Ford went from being a 5 or 6 out of 10 player to a 10 out of 10 player. Cipriani will suit England more now and it's not about form it's about picking the players that suit the way we play which currently we just don't do.

Having said all that if the forwards don't look like they can break out of a wet paper bag the the halfbacks will always have a miserable time.

Players whose reputations have been burnished during the this tour:

Curry, Brown, May.

Anyone else, well these...

Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Kruis, Haskell etc etc

Who's the England captain? Must be a concern going into RWC year not having a solid captain that is best in position and experienced.

Lol. Good one ebop.

Robshaw, Hartley, Farrell, who’s the guy?

Ha. Comedy gold every time.

I know hysteria is all the rage these days, but it's not the drama people are making it out to be.

We had a period when we managed to find a way to win tight games. We weren't massively better than everyone else, just 'enough' better to win. Now we've got an issue where players are making bad decisions on the pitch and swinging games the other way.

We have haven't gone from being a brilliant team to a terrible one. We've gone from a slightly better than most, to slightly worse. We aren't getting stuffed, we're coming out worse off away against an improved South Africa.

Seems to be a mental issue, things that were working a year ago aren't now, players are getting frustrated with themselves and each other, and losing their heads.

We are missing a really talismanic captain to steady the ship. Farrell isn't the right man for the job, he's too niggly and close to the edge, when you need someone to calm people down so they make the right decisions.

The most encouraging this from yesterday's test is that we defended the ruck area effectively for the first time in 12 months, that was a glaring issue that we hadn't been able to solve previously.

7.5, when you say comedy gold do you actually mean, oh damn we’re in trouble?

That total fall away from us in the 2nd half was awful, if we played like we did in the first 20 minutes for 80 we'd blow every team on the planet away.

I can't see how EJ keeps picking Nathan Hughes, he's never been an international for me?

Lol. Good one ebop.

I'd line up next week with

1.Ellis Genge
2.Jamie George
3.Kyle Synclare.
4.Joe Launchbury (c)
5.Nick Isekwe
6.Brad Shields
7.Tom Curry
8.Sam Simmonds

9.Ben Youngs
10.Danny Cipriani
11.Denny Solmano
12.Owen Farrell
13.Henry Slade
14.Jonny May
15.Elliot Daley

16.Singleton 17.Marler 18.Williams 19.Itoje 20.Wilson 21.Spencer 22.Lozowski 23.J Hill

Who’s your preferred captain 7.5?

Genge is injured and on the way home.

Is it a lack of 12's in England which is why Farrell is constantly played there? I still very much believe his best position is 10. England look a lot more balanced when he plays at 10.

Well it may be because he's a class 12 billy.

Problems continue for England - both Vunipolas have gone home. Billy injured, Mako family reasons.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it may be because he's a class 12 billy.

He can be a class 12 but only if he plays next to a class 10. Personally I feel he is a better 10 than 12. Maybe not so dynamic a 10 but certainly better than any options England have right now.

He may well be the best 10 we have but him and ford have proven they're the best 10 12 combo hence why they tend to start.

I think Ford is a very good 10 at club level but not so much at International level. He is far too inconsistent for me.

Driver wrote:I'd line up next week with

1.Ellis Genge
2.Jamie George
3.Kyle Synclare.
4.Joe Launchbury (c)
5.Nick Isekwe
6.Brad Shields
7.Tom Curry
8.Sam Simmonds

9.Ben Youngs
10.Danny Cipriani
11.Denny Solmano
12.Owen Farrell
13.Henry Slade
14.Jonny May
15.Elliot Daley

16.Singleton 17.Marler 18.Williams 19.Itoje 20.Wilson 21.Spencer 22.Lozowski 23.J Hill

Genge has gone home.
Sinckler has had 3 starts in a row and so far has done nothing to suggest he should keep the shirt.
I understand dropping Itoje as his penalty count is abysmal but Isiekwe probably needs some TLC beyond the capabilities of the coaching team. Could we possibly lose anything by giving Hill a go (note he is a lock )
Not seen anything from Shields to suggest he is better than Robshaw, while Simmonds would add pace but not force.
Would be tempted to try Robson and Cips, yet behind our supine pack they could be mangled.
Slade has not taken his chances so far, but who else is there?

Keeping some players in because they should get a fair chance, my lineup would be:

Marler, George, Williams, Launchbury, Hill, Shields, Curry, Simmonds, Spencer, Farrell, Daly, Lozowski, Slade, May, Brown

LCD, Hepburn, Sinckler, Itoje, Wilson, Robson, Cipriani, Solomona

Major part of the world.record equally number of wins in tier 1. He's not as good as sexton but no one is perhaps bar farrell if he were playing there.

eirebilly wrote:I think Ford is a very good 10 at club level but not so much at International level. He is far too inconsistent for me.

He's been playing in the same way for the entire season I'd say the opposite he's extremely consistent. Ford is slightly limited in that his biggest skill, which makes him a stand out flyhalf, is not being utilised by England (and for much of the season by Tigers but don't get me started). There probably isn't another flyhalf in the NH who can take the ball to the line and out runners through gaps like he can, the problem England have is there's no one making those runs and robbed of his great strength he's made to look average.

Farrell is a brutally efficient flyhalf at club level but he's not looked as good internationally because generally defences are tougher and he lacks the skills to unlock sides. This was best shown in the first test Vs the ABs for the Lions where it swiftly dawned on the Lions catching team that they'd need Sexton on the park. Cipriani is used to playing wide off a pack that lacks power use him with these tactics and he'll do better

Ford hasn’t been the issue in either test. He’s been effective with the ball in hand but is getting a dreadful platform.

thomh wrote:Ford hasn’t been the issue in either test. He’s been effective with the ball in hand but is getting a dreadful platform.

We have started each test well, and with front foot ball the midfield has looked good. Then we start losing the collisions and start to play differently. Very few 10s could look good when the pack is being mangled and while I feel that mean going Farrell to 10 for T3 may be sensible as a damage limitation exercise, playing behind a lumbering powderpuff pack we are seeing at the moment will make it academic.

While Faf n Willie have looked good, but our backs behind the SA pack and I believe they would have run riot.

Ford wasn't good enough at the 2015 WC and he isn't good enough now. Just because we had a winning spell doesn't give every member of the squad a free pass when they consistently fail to perform.

You need a 10 that can take the game by the scruff of the neck, *especially* when your forwards are under the cosh.

You need your 10 to put in some booming clearances safely into touch well in the opposition half, to take the pressure off. All Ford does when he's put under pressure is shovel the ball onto Farrell.

Sure when he puts his head up and doesn't have a line of forwards about to smash him, he can throw some lovely passes and cute little kicks in, but against good sides, he might as well not be on the pitch.

ebop wrote:7.5, when you say comedy gold do you actually mean, oh damn we’re in trouble?

It's certainly looking that way.

mid_gen wrote:

You need a 10 that can take the game by the scruff of the neck, *especially* when your forwards are under the cosh.
.

Not sure I have ever seen a 10 who can do that.

Plenty of 10s are capable of operating when their space is getting closed down. Ford's been charged down one too many times and with Farrell outside never takes responsibility himself to take the pressure off with some accurate kicking.

Instead when our forwards are coming off second best we get Ford's rabbit in the headlights act, shovelling slow ball on ad nauseum.

Most 10s move on slow ball when they're getting slowed down. That's why you normally have a powerful carrier in the centres to crash the ball up and reset. Farrell heavily relies on Barritt at Sarries to do this where as Ford has nothing at the minute. There's no forwards coming off his shoulder, there's no centres cutting angles. Unless May comes off his wing Ford is isolated and it's pretty pointless selecting him.

You look at the first twenty of the first test when we have him options, three tries. Then we started losing contact, tiring and went back into our shells and Ford was back to having no options. You offer Ford no options then he's a passenger, you give Ford options and you'll score tries.

eirebilly wrote:I have never really been a fan of Mike Brown but he is having a very good tour for me.

I am getting more and more underwhelmed with Itoje, I think he may need a break. He was superb when he first arrived but is going backwards at a rate of knots.

Composure and on field leadership is what is required for England. In both games, they got off to great starts only to allow South Africa to get under their skins. They got the England lads all wound up and dragged them down. Had England shown a lot more composure and focus then I believe that they would have won both tests.

Totally agree re Itoje, I think Lawes is now the player people seem to think Itoje is - a genuine all-rounder, and honestly probably our only world class lock, possibly with Launchbury on occasion. I don't think Itoje is particularly powerful, dynamic or energetic. Though that applies to most of our pack sadly. We're utterly without go forward without BV.

Still think the speed of our play and work at the ruck is the glaring problem. The fact Eddie has not brought us forward at all in this area would be enough, for me, to get shot of him. But then again, we've been crap here for years it seems. Biggest alarm bell and reason to change things is how fast our defence and set piece is now retreating. I'm sure SA have improved and good on them, but that quickly? Feels like it's a least partly a result of our regression. If England can't out scrummage the SH teams, we really are in the poop.

I was very impressed with how Itoje led the line against the SA threat, he did a fine job. But.....his loose play is suffering. His trademark turnovers have disappeared and he looks like a penalty waiting to happen....his handling....well. I honestly think we're expecting too much.

On the plus, Curry went well again, that's pretty much all.

“Ford wasn't good enough at the 2015 WC and he isn't good enough now.”

He didn’t start either of the crunch games, and the only time we looked in the game against Australia was for a period when he was on the ball a lot shortly after his introduction.