England Summer Tour - Part 2

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Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]

But Lt...

Billy V - Permanently Injured
Hughes - Not an international player
Mako - Needs a break
Robshaw - Not a great carrier
Cole - Poor Carrier
Hartley - Doesn't carry as much as he should
Jamie George - Never brought his club game to the international level
Sinkler - Flattering to deceive
Marler - Doesn't carry

Am I being unfair?

Limit as to what can be fixed for Saturday, but I still feel we get far too caught up in whether the forwards are individually big carriers. If they are well coached, and do the basics correctly (set piece and loose play) they will create quick ball that puts our backs on the front foot.

Now Robshaw may not be a carrier who makes big yards, but he usually tidied up crap ball (often from the big carriers). Sadly he does not have the gas for High Veldt, High Octane rugby.

Backs will prefer the one yard carry that gives quick ball, to the 10 or 20 yard carry that can be slowed down.

I believe we have the players, but they are poorly coached and drilled.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Lt...

Billy V - Permanently Injured
Hughes - Not an international player
Mako - Needs a break
Robshaw - Not a great carrier
Cole - Poor Carrier
Hartley - Doesn't carry as much as he should
Jamie George - Never brought his club game to the international level
Sinkler - Flattering to deceive
Marler - Doesn't carry

Am I being unfair?

Not sure if Hughes is an international player or not, but he isn't at the moment which is much the same. He isn't right and has not been for while.

With Isiekwe probably out with a broken hand, pack likely to be (my choice in brackets):

Marler
George
Sinckler (Williams)
Launchbury
Itoje
Shields
Curry
Hughes (Simmond)

That is not a pack light on carrying, but unless they work much harder off the ball will continue to struggle.

LondonTiger wrote:Limit as to what can be fixed for Saturday, but I still feel we get far too caught up in whether the forwards are individually big carriers. If they are well coached, and do the basics correctly (set piece and loose play) they will create quick ball that puts our backs on the front foot.

Now Robshaw may not be a carrier who makes big yards, but he usually tidied up crap ball (often from the big carriers). Sadly he does not have the gas for High Veldt, High Octane rugby.

Backs will prefer the one yard carry that gives quick ball, to the 10 or 20 yard carry that can be slowed down.

I believe we have the players, but they are poorly coached and drilled.

The next match is at sea level so possibly fitness, as opposed to wear and tear, should not be an issue. The point about Robshaw is a good one. I would be hard pressed to find someone who does more of the grunt work than him.

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Limit as to what can be fixed for Saturday, but I still feel we get far too caught up in whether the forwards are individually big carriers. If they are well coached, and do the basics correctly (set piece and loose play) they will create quick ball that puts our backs on the front foot.

Now Robshaw may not be a carrier who makes big yards, but he usually tidied up crap ball (often from the big carriers). Sadly he does not have the gas for High Veldt, High Octane rugby.

Backs will prefer the one yard carry that gives quick ball, to the 10 or 20 yard carry that can be slowed down.

I believe we have the players, but they are poorly coached and drilled.

The next match is at sea level so possibly fitness, as opposed to wear and tear, should not be an issue.  The point about Robshaw is a good one.  I would be hard pressed to find someone who does more of the grunt work than him.  

I believe in world rugby the hardest working player is Pocock. Then comes Robshaw. Then a big gap to everyone else.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Lt...

Billy V - Permanently Injured
Hughes - Not an international player
Mako - Needs a break
Robshaw - Not a great carrier
Cole - Poor Carrier
Hartley - Doesn't carry as much as he should
Jamie George - Never brought his club game to the international level
Sinkler - Flattering to deceive
Marler - Doesn't carry

Am I being unfair?

Not sure if Hughes is an international player or not, but he isn't at the moment which is much the same. He isn't right and has not been for while.

If Hughes was any good, he wouldn't be English.

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Lt...

Billy V - Permanently Injured
Hughes - Not an international player
Mako - Needs a break
Robshaw - Not a great carrier
Cole - Poor Carrier
Hartley - Doesn't carry as much as he should
Jamie George - Never brought his club game to the international level
Sinkler - Flattering to deceive
Marler - Doesn't carry

Am I being unfair?

Not sure if Hughes is an international player or not, but he isn't at the moment which is much the same. He isn't right and has not been for while.

If Hughes was any good, he wouldn't be English.

On those terms he wouldn't be welsh either then....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Lt...

Billy V - Permanently Injured
Hughes - Not an international player
Mako - Needs a break
Robshaw - Not a great carrier
Cole - Poor Carrier
Hartley - Doesn't carry as much as he should
Jamie George - Never brought his club game to the international level
Sinkler - Flattering to deceive
Marler - Doesn't carry

Am I being unfair?

Not sure if Hughes is an international player or not, but he isn't at the moment which is much the same. He isn't right and has not been for while.

If Hughes was any good, he wouldn't be English.

On those terms he wouldn't be welsh either then....

I agree.

Neither Wales nor England want Hughes because he's too good?

We'll take him then....

LondonTiger wrote:

BamBam wrote:Looking a bit further ahead, does anyone want to see how Underhill would go at 6 with Curry at 7? Underhill looks to have the tackling prowess to easily fit in at 6, but think it would be quite reliant on Billy and the locks for carrying

Well I was quite hopeful of an Underhill at 6, Evans at 7 for RWC 2023. However with ELicester stunting Evans development that is looking a long way off - though if he gets games he could still threaten the Currys in teh future. I do see Underhill (and Willis) more as 6s than 7s.

Having had my eye on Underhill the last couple of seasons, I've not seen enough to suggest he's an international starter (particularly at 6). I'd put more money on Curry(s) & Willis as a partnership long-term, also offering better carrying options. Think Mercer and Simmonds would be better off concentrating on being carrying flanks as well. Time and injuries are conspiring against any potential Ewers might have had to make the step up, but I think he'd probably make a better balanced option at 6 for England than Underhill too.

Shame these options are coming so late for 2019, but good potential experience to build for 2023.

I still think Underhill has a bright future, an excellent tackler, will get better at jacking and is good on the clear out. What has stopped him is injury. Willis will be one to watch but sadly players rarely come back fully after knee injuries, time will tell. I think we will be fine just need a bit of luck with our forwards injury wise and we will compete more effectively.

I can see Shields/Curry working on the flanks going forward, I think they have a nice balance and will only improve with time together.

There are options if only they could stay fit!

I think Mercer will end up as a 6. He's probably not that far off making a push for the match day squad.

Both Currys will make a big case for selection. Willis has a log way to come back. Wont see him next season I wouldn't have thought.

Underhill just needs to stay fit and healthy for a good period to see what he can do in an England shirt.

Robshaw back in. Cipriani starts. Hill on the bench.

Shame Shields isn't well enough to play

How does Robshaw leapfrog Wilson? I'm at a complete loss with EJ.

He's a better player tbf despite Robshaw being poor in the previous 2.

Underhill up close, is one serous athletic specimen who is still only 21.....
Backrowers Mercer, Ellis and Bayliss who have all come through the D. Grewcock grooming school in the academy are also all clearly athletes and play with a smile on their faces.
Robinson, Hall and Clarke wouldn't have been at all impressed......

Also disappointing not to see Robson even make it on to the bench

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's a better player tbf despite Robshaw being poor in the previous 2.

On paper perhaps but not in performances. Robshaw was poor in the 1st test and rightfully dropped. Wilson shows up well from the bench and Robshaw is straight back in the side.

Long vs short term certainly sgt. If wilson had made a big impression may have been different.

Cipriani for Ford is the headline, but a lot will come down to the pack. They have to up their game.

6/2 split on the bench is interesting, finally addressing the main issue we've had on this tour so far. A lot of Chiefs on that bench, maybe that familiarity will serve them well.

Marler and Hughes are back in for the Vunipola brothers. It feels like a step down in both of those position. Shields' illness is untimely, but Robshaw should be able to slot straight back in.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Underhill up close, is one serous athletic specimen who is still only 21.....
Backrowers Mercer, Ellis and Bayliss who have all come through the D. Grewcock grooming school in the academy are also all clearly athletes and play with a smile on their faces.
Robinson, Hall and Clarke wouldn't have been at all impressed......

Does that mean they're learning to handle themselves in the dark arts aswell...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's a better player tbf despite Robshaw being poor in the previous 2.

On paper perhaps but not in performances. Robshaw was poor in the 1st test and rightfully dropped. Wilson shows up well from the bench and Robshaw is straight back in the side.

I said before the tour on the falcons thread Sgt that I wish Wilson hadn't been picked and left to have a good summer off ready for our Champions Cup exploits. Jones has simply used him as a squad filler as he did last summer.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Underhill up close, is one serous athletic specimen who is still only 21.....
Backrowers Mercer, Ellis and Bayliss who have all come through the D. Grewcock grooming school in the academy are also all clearly athletes and play with a smile on their faces.
Robinson, Hall and Clarke wouldn't have been at all impressed......

Does that mean they're learning to handle themselves in the dark arts as well...

You mean the gentle art of persuasion? I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that.

And, by the way, I certainly hope so.

robbo277 wrote:

Cipriani for Ford is the headline, but a lot will come down to the pack. They have to up their game.

6/2 split on the bench is interesting, finally addressing the main issue we've had on this tour so far. A lot of Chiefs on that bench, maybe that familiarity will serve them well.

Marler and Hughes are back in for the Vunipola brothers. It feels like a step down in both of those position. Shields' illness is untimely, but Robshaw should be able to slot straight back in.

I wonder if Eddie went a bit slower in practices this week. If he lets people recover and rest a bit, I would not be surprised to see a fresher, better side. Some of our guys have been playing balls-to-the-wall for almost two years.

I see Carl Fearns couldn't resist stirring it up.

https://twitter.com/Carl_Fearns/status/1009492381408940032

I wish he was available but, as Gloucester supporters ahve been letting himknow, it was his decision to stay in France, after initially signing with Gloucester, so he can't really complain.

I do kinda agree with the fans having a go at him mind.

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Underhill up close, is one serous athletic specimen who is still only 21.....
Backrowers Mercer, Ellis and Bayliss who have all come through the D. Grewcock grooming school in the academy are also all clearly athletes and play with a smile on their faces.
Robinson, Hall and Clarke wouldn't have been at all impressed......

Does that mean they're learning to handle themselves in the dark arts as well...

You mean the gentle art of persuasion?  I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that.

And, by the way, I certainly hope so.

Unfortunately big Danny has moved on and so the above players probably never graduated to being taught the infamous enforcer DG one inch punch. Which frankly has no place in the game today.....although pretty sure one or two opposition players who were a dangerously reckless in their interpretation of fair play, remember it well.

We could do with a bot of steel in our pack there's a few wet wipes in there. Should get some old school nasty bar stewards to intimidate sides. Mind you like the Hask said Rugby's going soft, you get carded for nothing these days. You wouldn't have the mess at the breakdown of we were allowed to ruck the player still, used to be self regulatory.

Cipriani to the rescue! Oink oink, flap flap......

If this game alone is the sum total of the 'Danny' experiment/opportunity then really is it worth the bother?

George Ford is a very good player as was shown by his performances in Argentina this time last year, however, pack deficiencies aside, I do think he losses something in partnership with Farrell, though there are real up marks as well. Having the 'Danny' option is a real change of voice that may offer benefits if all concerned can adapt their games?

A point that does strike me is when did DC last play, it must be at least a month ago?

Bon chance mon ami.

Yoda wrote:We could do with a bot of steel in our pack there's a few wet wipes in there. Should get some old school nasty bar stewards to intimidate sides. Mind you like the Hask said Rugby's going soft, you get carded for nothing these days. You wouldn't have the mess at the breakdown of we were allowed to ruck the player still, used to be self regulatory.

Well I guess a bot of steel is a necessity if we are contemplating an arse whipping..

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Mercer will end up as a 6. He's probably not that far off making a push for the match day squad.

Both Currys will make a big case for selection. Willis has a log way to come back. Wont see him next season I wouldn't have thought.

Underhill just needs to stay fit and healthy for a good period to see what he can do in an England shirt.

I think Mercer is a possible FECer post RWC

What a waste taking Robson and not playing him!

For the AI's I'd love to see Young's and Care both dropped unless their form actually warrants it. With a poor pack you need a good scrum half to work with the crap ball you're gonna get, neither seem able to do this. This series Young's has been pants, part of that must be coming back from the injury and his fitness/lack of. But to be honest ropey swings in form have dogged both scrumhalves all their careers, this is nothing new.

From a personal allowance perspective I'm really happy for Cipriani. He's put a lot into getting this chance including sacrificing big money French contracts. It's such a stark contrast to the kid who stuffed things up in the first place.
Whether or not he's really the right player to lift England is another question. It does show just how far things have gone off the rails for the golden boy Ford to get dropped for a guy who couldn't get near the squad only a short while ago.

I just don't get the point in the Cipriani experiment...and I don't get why Robson was taken.

Eddie Jones just baffles me. What is actually going on in his head. Whats his plans with people like this..and Mark Wilson?? etc. Why does he manage people like this.

Pick them for tours then not even look at them again until another meaningless tour needs some bodies to fill the squad.

Who’s the captain? And who is likely to be the captain at the RWC?

ebop wrote:Who’s the captain? And who is likely to be the captain at the RWC?

Dunno you guys got anyone spare with a UK grandparent?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't get the point in the Cipriani experiment...and I don't get why Robson was taken.

Eddie Jones just baffles me. What is actually going on in his head. Whats his plans with people like this..and Mark Wilson?? etc. Why does he manage people like this.

Pick them for tours then not even look at them again until another meaningless tour needs some bodies to fill the squad.

At least Cipriani is getting a start. I was wondering if Eddie only took him on tour to stop him signing a big money contract overseas. It does seem strange that Robson has not had even a sniff, especially with Danny-boy starting this test. Supposedly the weather is meant to be wet and windy tomorrow so maybe Jones thinks the Wasp's game is not tight enough?

Wilson has at least added marginally to his tally of caps - but Jones does seem to view him as an inferior alternative to Robshaw.

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