20th Gathering of Edinburgh and Glasgow Discussion

First topic message reminder :

Edinburgh Squad

LH's: Schoeman, Dell, Marfo, Sutherland
Hookers: McInally, Ford, Fenton, Cherry
TH's: Nel, Berghan, McCallum, Ceccarelli
Second Row: Gilchrist, Toolis, McKenzie, Carmichael, Hunter-Hill
Back Row: Barclay, Hamilton, Crosbie; Watson, Ritchie; Bradbury, Mata, Miller, Nayalo

SH's: Pyrgos, Fowles, Kennedy, Shiel
FH's: Hickey, VDW, McLelland, Baggott
Centres: Scott, Socino, Bennett, Dean, Johnstone, G Taylor
Back 3: Fife, VDM, Hoyland, Brown, Graham; Kinghorn

Forward Total: 26
- Internationals: 16 (14 Scots, 1 Italian, 1 Fijian)
- NSQ: 4 (1 of whom is a project)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 7 (2 capped)
Backs Total: 20
- Internationals: 8 (Socino lone non-Scot)
- NSQ: 4 (2 projects)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 10 (2 capped)

Total: 46

Glasgow Squad

LH's: Bhatti, Allan, Kebble
Hookers: Brown, Turner, Stewart, Bryce
TH's: Fagerson, Nuka, Rae, Nicol
Second Row: Gray, Swinson, Cummings, McDonald, Brian, Peterson, Davidson
Back-Row: M Fagerson, Harley; Gibbins, Smith, Fusaro; Wilson, Ashe, Tameilau, Flockhart

SH's: Price, G Horne,Frisby, Mata, Baletto
FH's: Horne, Hastings, Jackson
Centres: Dunbar, H Jones, Johnson, Dunbar, Grigg, P Kelly
Back 3: Seymour, VDM, L Jones, Masaga, Tagive, Hughes, Beattie, Nairn; Hogg, Thomson

Forward Total: 27
- Internationals: 15 (12 Scots, 2 Americans, 1 Tongan)
- NSQ: 6 (2 projects)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 11 (4 capped, both projects)
Backs Total: 24
- Internationals: 14 (10 Scots, 1 Fijian, 1 Kiwi, 1 Canadian, 1 Aussie)
- NSQ: 4 (No projects if Thomson is already tied to SA)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 8 (1 capped)

Total: 51

Overall: 97 players
- Internationals: 53 (43 Scots)
- NSQ: 19 (5 projects)
- Under 25: 36 (9 capped)

Much stronger Edinburgh team - I suspect the team to play the Ospreys will be broadly similar.

I'm also surprised to see Farndale involved, although given he's on the bench he's not likely to get too much of a run to make in impact. He is close to being a world class 7s player, but if he's going to play 15s he's going to need a decent amount of gametime to get up to speed.

Strange to see no D'Arcy Graham yet given he was left out of the 7s World Cup squad so that he could do a full Edinburgh pre-season?

Yeah the lad is a genuine prospect. Dean and John wells are bringing through some seriously good locks and this young lad is another on the conveyor belt.

I wonder if he views a permanent move in the future. He's strong and athletic. He plays 6 very well also...so that gives you an idea.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah the lad is a genuine prospect. Dean and John wells are bringing through some seriously good locks and this young lad is another on the conveyor belt.

I wonder if he views a permanent move in the future. He's strong and athletic. He plays 6 very well also...so that gives you an idea.

There may be something in that, Glasgow have a few locks out of contract at the end of this season and if he impresses on loan then surely could put himself in the frame. I suppose it depends as well whether he manages to break through into the match day squad at the Falcons when he goes back as well. As you say, there are a host of decent locks at Newcastle and that might not be easy to do. Dean Richards, to his great credit always seems willing to let players move on if they are not getting opportunities.

Anyway, all speculation atm, lets see if he gets his chance and how he gets on.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Much stronger Edinburgh team - I suspect the team to play the Ospreys will be broadly similar.

I'm also surprised to see Farndale involved, although given he's on the bench he's not likely to get too much of a run to make in impact. He is close to being a world class 7s player, but if he's going to play 15s he's going to need a decent amount of gametime to get up to speed.

Strange to see no D'Arcy Graham yet given he was left out of the 7s World Cup squad so that he could do a full Edinburgh pre-season?

Injured maybe?

You don't tend to get much info on that front in the new Edinburgh set up. Surely he would have had a run out in one of the games had he been fit though. There is going to be a lot of competition at wing this season at Edinburgh, with or without Farndale. Graham is going to have to be on his game to get his chance.

I can only assume so given they gave a random 18 year old a run out last week instead. Why not play Farndale last week instead?

It's all my fault. As I know very little about Glen Young (other than seeing him in a Falcons warmup last year against Doncaster, before drunkenly texting Jimbo about a Scottish Nakarawa.) I had to ask Dean Richards to send up Andrew Davidson instead, a much more known quantity.

I'm sure you guys remember the Scotland v England U20 game back in 2016 (a.k.a. the Blair Kinghorn and Matt Smith show) where Davidson singlehandedly dismantled the excellent English lineout. I'm pretty happy to see him back in the West!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I can only assume so given they gave a random 18 year old a run out last week instead. Why not play Farndale last week instead?

The random 18 year old is on the bench this week as well (Blain), I'm assuming Cockers thinks he could be capable of stepping up, or failing that just doesn't want to risk some of the other players yet.

Two pretty strong franchise sides. 

How fabulous to see Matt Scott and Mark Bennett partner in midfield. 

I have said for years that Farndale should come back to 15s because he's wasted in 7s in my opinion. Big, strong winger - physically the exact opposite to D'Arcy G. I am very keen to see what a full season's conditioning programme will do for Graham too. 

Don't remember seeing Davidson play but we need a stable of test class locks very badly and so I am keen for him to kick on.

Anyone going down to Kingston Park tonight? If I was to mention that I'll be there with Hagia Sophia, would that make you more or less likely to venture to the Toon?

I expect a detailed match report Bru!

IanBru wrote:Anyone going down to Kingston Park tonight? If I was to mention that I'll be there with Hagia Sophia, would that make you more or less likely to venture to the Toon?

No. Never.

I had been planning to take Pippetto to Franklin Gardens but he blotted his copybook earlier in the week. Princess Daughter had bought tickets for The Globe for MrsPip and self (Mark Rylance is amazing as Iago) and the females in the household decided that it would be the perfect time to try a "trust and responsibility" exercise with himself. I won't go into details but he is a 15 year old bag of hormones and attitude. You can pretty much guess the rest.

On a rugby note; last week's Warriors 9-15 probably won't be seen again this season but tonight's backs may feature quite often. If they get enough ball they could make the Stains look as knackered as a Solly Luvvies XV.

Strong Edinburgh team. Agreed on Graham, he must be injured. No sense in picking Brown over Graham on the wing.

So excited about Scott and Bennett in the centres.

Fife a late call off with injury so Farndale gets a start

Glasgow losing 22-10 at halftime with the pack apparently getting absolutely mullered.

Niko keeping Glasgow in the game!

Edinburgh winning 13-6 half time with  Matt Scott scoring a barge over try from a rolling maul

Great win for Edinburgh 23-13 against Newcastle, with both teams appearing to take things more seriously in terms of gametime to players and subs used.

Glasgow were pumped 41-15 away to Newcastle, with lots of comments on social media suggesting Glasgow's pack were lucky even to come 2nd best. Worrying signs?

On my way back from the game. Great defence from Edinburgh, driving Newcastle back time & again.

Scrum was solid or dominant
Lineouts - probably 50/50
Attack mixed bag, lot of rain in the 2nd half so slippy ball

Duhan stood out in the first half & mata went through a power of work.
When Kennedy came on his box kicks were terrible but his passing was ok
No one really stood out, but was a decent team performance.

EWT Spoons wrote:On my way back from the game. Great defence from Edinburgh, driving Newcastle back time & again.

Scrum was solid or dominate
Lineouts - probably 50/50
Attack mixed bag, lot of rain in the 2nd half so slippy ball

Duhan stood out in the first half & mata went through a power of work.
When Kennedy came on his box kicks were terrible but his passing was ok
No one really stood out, but was a decent team performance.

I suspect we're going to see a lot of that this season, which is fine by me if we're winning.

I suspect Glasgow will be the opposite - relying on individual magic at times instead!

How was Farndale?

Pretty quiet. Got the 2nd try but that was more just finishing off a move.

Problem he had was that duhan was on the other wing, and so most of the ball went towards his side.

Wasn't really a game for the wingers though as just after HT it started pouring down.

Couldn't say if he was good or bad based on that game, he was just there.

Just back from Franklin Gardens watching what can only be described as a pretty poor Glasgow performance.

Our set piece was very dysfunctional and so we had no ball to play with at all. We made the most of some scraps in the usual Glasgow fashion and managed to conger up some tries burt we were well beaten. First up tackling was poor as well.

Just to put a gloss on the night, Sam Johnson took a bad head injury toards the end and left for hospital on a stretcher. He is awake and fine by all accounts, but I imagine will now be having a few weeks off.

Well I guess the only positive to take is that if you are going to have a stinker, best do it in pre season!

We have still got a few players to come back and judging by that, a few of them will be back next week for the Connacht game!

EWT Spoons wrote:Pretty quiet. Got the 2nd try but that was more just finishing off a move.

Problem he had was that duhan was on the other wing, and so most of the ball went towards his side.

Wasn't really a game for the wingers though as just after HT it started pouring down.

Couldn't say if he was good or bad based on that game, he was just there.

Aye similar to the Visser days I can see our tactics being 'give it to Duhan!'

Saw a few comments from Newcastle fans complimenting Edinburgh highly on their defence and ferocity at the breakdown which is good. Key to our success this year is whether we can combine that with attacking threat.

Our defence was largely outstanding. Repeatedly when we were in or around our 22 the players rushed out and after a couple of mins we were defending at the halfway line. Not sure it will always work but it was pretty impressive. But have to factor in it was preseason and a lot of changes for both teams.

Breakdown was pretty good, I'm not sure on Hamilton but he was part of a fairly dominant pack and cockers praised him after the game so I assume I'm in the wrong about my doubts on him.

Shoeman - our Scrum was very good last night which included him, but I fear he could see a lot of cards unless he calms down a bit. If the game was anything other than a friendly I think he'd have been in the bin for a bit, due to an incredibly late hit on Flood.

Ford - looks fit, probably fitter than he's looked in a while. Will be interesting to see how he goes this season.

Nel - came off the bench and made a difference to the Scrum pretty much straight away. I think he might be over his injury issues. Could be a big season for him.

Scott & Bennett looked OK, but didn't stand out

Socino didn't really do much when he came off the bench, but the ball was very wet by that time so it was very forward orientated. As was Edinburgh’s game throughout.

Newcastle looked decent at times as well, the lad who got their final try is rapid and has a decent step on him.

Good summary Spoons. Schoeman looks to be an absolute unit but sounds like he's a bit 'exciteable' too - comes with the territory when you sign a physical saffer prop I suppose!

We must have close to the best scrum depth in the league - can only be demoralising for a team to be having a hard time in the scrums only to see a seasoned international class trio trotting off the bench!

Thanks for the summaries - glad to see Edinburgh get a win in pre-season.

The less said about the soapdodgers the better. I am going to be peed at Rennie if our tight five are struggling for possession all season. We knew it was a weakness last season - fairly unforgiveable not to shore it up.

I remain hopeful (you really have to be at this stage of the season) that we can get out a better pack than the one we saw last night when we get all our players back.

Zander, Fraser Brown, Johnny G, Big Brian, Swinson will all surely add something to the mix. For some reason, Keeble was on the sheet yesterday and was never played either.

DR may have gone into that game hoping a few of his squad would play themselves into contention and in reality he may only have found out that some of them have played themselves out.

It will be interesting to see who lines up against Connacht next Saturday.

Classic Finn Russell performance in his competitive debut so far tonight - 2 missed penalties, a missed kick to touch plus two tries!

Well he inspires Racing to a BP win away to Toulon - let's hope he keeps that up!

He scored 12 points in 3 minutes just before the break and it turned the game. 

You'd argue that's the Ayr training paying off.

DR's comments after the match included,

"Ultimately we needed to be a little more patient and we ended up chasing the game. Defensively we just fell off too many tackles and I thought Northampton were good."

He also mentioned that the scrum wasn't solid enough to provide a decent attacking platform which meant Glasgow struggled to get on the front foot.

Considering he said almost exactly the same thing after far too many matches last season it does not bode well for the coming months.

Groundhog Season anyone?

Glasgow should still be there or there abouts in the Pro 14 come the end of the sesson, and I'm sure they'll rack up big scores against some of the lesser teams, but nothing has happened in the off season to make me think they'll cope in Europe (even with a more favourable group) or the business end of the season.

A good big 'un still usually beats a good little 'un when it comes to forward power and Glasgow have the same level of forward firepower that they did last season. By contrast Edinburgh's strong pack has got even stronger this year, and with Hickey and Scott hopefully our backs will be a little more potent.

Glasgow still have plenty quality though, and with a bit of luck on the injury front they should still have a decent season. Edinburgh are no longer going to be able to play the underdog card so will have the pressure of expectation to deal with!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=dISwI08Ga3Y

Finn's Racing debut, with 2 well taken tries.

Also, I know it's early days but is it a sign Toulon aren't nearly the force they used to be? They've still got a plethora of stars but Edinburgh might be able to surprise them, especially in the 2nd round at Murrayfield.

Official picture of Glasgow's squad on their website. 

Worryingly, without any footnotes saying that Brodie Retallick and Sam Whitelock will join the squad a bit later.

George Carlin wrote:Official picture of Glasgow's squad on their website. 

Worryingly, without any footnotes saying that Brodie Retallick and Sam Whitelock will join the squad a bit later.

You aren't too bad for 2nd row though. It's props and a backrow you need!

Tiger, I think we have three fit second rows; Gray, Peterson and Cummings. I am discounting academy lads or emergency loan cover, on the basis that if we are serious about challenging for the title we should have a first team squad that is up to the job.

You can tell how worried I am: no-one was referred to by nickname.


DR keeps mentioning that the Scotland lads can't play more than four consecutive games, so unless Naughty Boy is fit by the start of October (Swinson and McDonald are both longer term injuries) we could be in real trouble.

We had Cummings 2 seasons ago and McDonald last season as bolters in the 2nd row. This year Davidson, Henderson and Sykes are all going to get an opportunity to impress. Our luck will eventually run out but Sykes and Davidson have both been given praise from their work at the u20's and Newcastle reserves respectively.

Probably see quite a bit of Harley in the second row as well...  

I am not too worried about the start of the season. We started the season on fire last year. Realistically, we don't have the props, back-row or half-backs to do much in Europe unless we see some serious improvement from 8-10 good, not great, players. The key will be preserving the energy of the starting 23 going into May and getting the young guys up to speed, in particular Hastings and the props. Titles are won in May, not in September.

jimbopip wrote:Tiger, I think we have three fit second rows; Gray, Peterson and Cummings. I am discounting academy lads or emergency loan cover, on the basis that if we are serious about challenging for the title we should have a first team squad that is up to the job.

You can tell how worried I am: no-one was referred to by nickname.


DR keeps mentioning that the Scotland lads can't play more than four consecutive games, so unless Naughty Boy is fit by the start of October (Swinson and McDonald are both longer term injuries) we could be in real trouble.

I thought Brian was back and ready?

BB is out for another 3 or 4 weeks apparently, which is a pain, as we could do with him at the moment, still as long as he gets back to full fitness sooner rather than later. He hardly played at all last season.

The second row I want to see step up a bit this year is Cummings, who burst onto the scene a couple of years ago as a precocious kid who we all saw as JG mark 2. It is probably fair to say he has not quote lived up to that billing so far and as a potential internationalist, has fallen behind a few of the Edinburgh prospects as well, Carmichael especially.

Of course he is still young and has plenty of time to catch up again, but this season he surely needs to start delivering on his promise. Sykes is a prospect but is only 18 and I would be surprised if we see a lot of him this year, they will spend a lot of time conditioning him and let him carry on developing with the U20s with maybe a turn or two of the bench for Glasgow if we are still really short in International windows.

On Hazel’s point around starting the season well last year, do Glasgow fans think they’ll get off to a similarly strong start, or do you think other teams figured out how to play against Glasgow?  

Just wondering if the fall away at the end of last season was due to teams working out the best way to play against them, and if that will pick up again this year.

This isn’t a dig at Glasgow just to be clear, given Edinburgh’s game plan for long enough was “give it to visser”, just curious if Glasgow fans are a bit worried.

EWT Spoons wrote:On Hazel’s point around starting the season well last year, do Glasgow fans think they’ll get off to a similarly strong start, or do you think other teams figured out how to play against Glasgow?  

Just wondering if the fall away at the end of last season was due to teams working out the best way to play against them, and if that will pick up again this year.

This isn’t a dig at Glasgow just to be clear, given Edinburgh’s game plan for long enough was “give it to visser”, just curious if Glasgow fans are a bit worried.

I actually think a lot of the time for the past two seasons and last year in particular, Glasgow on the whole beat themselves by not looking after the ball very well.

I think teams have known how to play against them for a while now, but when at their best, as against Racing and Tigers in the Euros and against Munster in the cup final, that mattered not a jot as to some extent they were unplayable and other teams just could not do anything about it.

So what has changed other than the coach?

Firstly a couple of players, that have not been replaced to the same extent, mainly Nakarawa and Strauss, who were the two that really gave us the go forward and then allowed the flair players to run riot.

Secondly, I think the calls of international rugby are taking their toll on Glasgow. For the past two seasons, it has been very obvious that the Scotland players have come back from the 6N completely cooked and have not shown any form in the latter part of the season.

Clearly replacing players of the capability of the two mentioned above is not easy and may even be impossible on our budget, we can only hope that we can grow some of our own of a similar ilk.

Managing the players a bit better, so that they manage to survive a whole season and have some gas in the tank at the end though is something that could be done a lot better than it was in Toonie's last year and with DR last season.

That may mean that we don't go 10 from 10 at the beginning of the stretch though. If we don't start quite so well this year, yet manage to build into our form as the year goes on, I will be happy enough with that.

We can't have an Edinburgh thread without a Glasgow one!

https://www.606v2.com/t67885-connacht-v-glasgow-warriors-saturday-1st-sept

I'm not a highly paid coach but even I've figured out how to play against glasgow. You only need to look at Edinburgh, the current and future 1872 champions, to see how to do it.

Play simple rugby and do the basics.

Glasgow are a team devoid of effective forwards. Phase play, ball retention and territory are not Glasgow's strong points. They play a broken unstructured way where their talented backs can strike from anywhere.

Just don't give them loose kicks to attack from and their backs are starved of the ball in open play and Glasgow struggle.

Edinburgh on the other hand play with structure. You know, like a proper rugby team and not a collection of individuals.

It is amazing that as everyone knows how to beat Glasgow, they still manage to win so many games!

I guess they are just lucky!

BigGee wrote:It is amazing that as everyone knows how to beat Glasgow, they still manage to win so many games!

I guess they are just lucky!

Luck that always runs out just in time for the knock outs/euros...

tigertattie wrote:
Edinburgh on the other hand play with structure. You know, like a proper rugby team and not a collection of individuals.

I share the sentiment but let's see Edinburgh win something first...

To be fair, you could argue that once teams worked it out last season, Glasgow's form went out the window.  

It doesn't work for all teams as Glasgow are still a good team and not everyone are good enough to adjust their play to negate Glasgow, but it's a fair point that they struggle if the opposition keep the play tight in the forwards.

I think both teams will face different challenges this season, as teams will no longer underestimate Edinburgh (or at least not to the same degree), and likewise they'll try and starve Glasgow of getting the ball out to their backs in space.

EWT Spoons wrote:To be fair, you could argue that once teams worked it out last season, Glasgow's form went out the window.  

.

I still think it is the other way around. Our form went first, then teams worked out how to beat us.

Early in the season, we were beating good teams: Leinster, Munster, Cheetahs away. The first game against Exeter was also very close and could have gone either way but we then had nothing left in the tank following that game and the SA trip when Leinster came calling the following week.

That was probably the point where it started to unravel a bit, even though we were still winning games quite comfortably after that. I would like to think that we would have beaten Montpellier at home as well, had it not been for that bit of idiocy from George Turner.

Anyway that is all in the past now and so we will just have to see if lessons have been learnt from it and carried over into this season.

Every season is different and it will be for Edinburgh as well this year. Sides are not going to have any complacency when they are playing them and may change their selections accordingly. Life may not be as it was for them last year either.

I actually think that the league generally may well be more competitive this season. Some of the also rans from previous years do seem to have strengthened up a bit. Dragons are certainly better on paper and the Italian sides seemed to be stirring a bit last year. It remains to be seen how the Kings and Cheetahs, who looked to have had some of their better players pinched from them, come out, but at least they will have had time to prepare properly this time around.

Can't wait for it to get started.

BigGee wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:To be fair, you could argue that once teams worked it out last season, Glasgow's form went out the window.  

.

Every season is different and it will be for Edinburgh as well this year. Sides are not going to have any complacency when they are playing them and may change their selections accordingly. Life may not be as it was for them last year either.

Can't wait for it to get started.

Totally agree on the Edinburgh bit - well I agree on both bits, but covering Edinburgh first - I think teams will no longer underestimate Edinburgh, at least not to the same level anyway. Despite us having a good season last year, I think it may be seen as an anomaly by some and whilst they might treat Edinburgh with a bit more respect, I don't think it'll be to the same levels as the traditional powerhouses of the league. It does however mean Edinburgh will have to improve to show it wasn't a fluke. As you say (in the bit I've already deleted and I can't be bothered to put back in) other teams have improved too, so it's going to be tougher this season. Especially Ulster. We were fortunate last year they were terrible (relatively speaking), this year with a new coach and away from the off field stuff, they'll be a different proposition.

Looking forward to it all starting on Friday.