Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Kwini

I reckon Harry has scored a double eagle.

She's a weird looking bird, more a bogey I'd say.

Kwini, you have very high standards. I seem to remember you thought Lexi was a bit of a minger.

[wiretapper]

The World Cup starts next week. For our UK based posters here is TV guide for the group stages



And here is an excellent guide to all squads

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2018/jun/05/world-cup-2018-complete-guide-players-ratings-goals-caps

With the US Open next week I'll be juggling between the two

[westisbest]

Also for rugby fans, summer tours start Saturday

[super_realist]

Also for rugby fans, summer tours start Saturday

Hard to get very interested in meaningless friendlies isn't it?

[westisbest]

Not if your into Rugby no.
Wouldn’t say they’re meaningless either.

But hey that’s your take on it.

[Diggers]

England heading off on good form. This is definitely a good shape for them with a squad picked to play to that formation. Best shape going into a tournament since 98 for me. Wellbeck showing why he's a good pick.

[NedB-H]

I quite like Welbeck, but he scored a tap in today. They seem to be playing alright, but nothing amazing; Costa Rica looked like they just stepped off the plane today and England struggled to create much despite having all the ball. The system may have worked ok in these friendlies but it worries me that Southgate has said there is no plan B, England aren’t going to beat any of the top teams with this set of players in this formation.

[kwinigolfer]

I quite like Welbeck, but he scored a tap in today. They seem to be playing alright, but nothing amazing; Costa Rica looked like they just stepped off the plane today and England struggled to create much despite having all the ball. The system may have worked ok in these friendlies but it worries me that Southgate has said there is no plan B, England aren’t going to beat any of the top teams with this set of players in this formation.

It worries me that they only had two warm-up games; this is the game Southgate should have had his notional 1st XI out there.
Having said that, not many remember Connelly, Greaves, Callaghan, Paine as World Cup winners. But they all played.

[Diggers]

I quite like Welbeck, but he scored a tap in today. They seem to be playing alright, but nothing amazing; Costa Rica looked like they just stepped off the plane today and England struggled to create much despite having all the ball. The system may have worked ok in these friendlies but it worries me that Southgate has said there is no plan B, England aren’t going to beat any of the top teams with this set of players in this formation.

The thing about tap ins is that they show a player was in exactly the right place at the right time.

[super_realist]

Not if your into Rugby no.
Wouldn’t say they’re meaningless either.

But hey that’s your take on it.

I quite like Rugby these days, but in what way do these matches have meaning? It's not a tournament, and nothing is at stake, so it is effectively a friendly, even if big teams are playing one another.

[Davie]

With international rugby there is only the world cup every four years and no qualifying (for the bigger nations anyway) so what do you suggest to fill the other 3 years? Football has World Cup and Euros each every 4 years and qualifying in between so apart from the meaningless friendlies in between there is always something to play for

At least with Rugby you get international teams going on tour in the off season so they often aren't one-off matches .. surely as meaningful as possible?

[navyblueshorts]

Also for rugby fans, summer tours start Saturday

Hard to get very interested in meaningless friendlies isn't it?

Rugby doesn't do 'friendlies'. They're all full on, just some a little more than others.

[westisbest]

The summer tours are great to watch.
Difficult for a northern hemisphere team to win a tour in the Southern Hemisphere.

Teams want to go down there and win the series.
Certainly won’t be a friendly to the players.
It’s not a tournament, but certainly a test series to be won, which is a big deal.

[super_realist]

With international rugby there is only the world cup every four years and no qualifying (for the bigger nations anyway) so what do you suggest to fill the other 3 years? Football has World Cup and Euros each every 4 years and qualifying in between so apart from the meaningless friendlies in between there is always something to play for

At least with Rugby you get international teams going on tour in the off season so they often aren't one-off matches .. surely as meaningful as possible?

I'm not saying they shouldn't play them, but my point is that given nothing is at stake, other than pride, they are effectively friendlies, just under the name "test", so much like all those cricket games which have no bearing on them.

[dynamark]

I still thought England looked pretty average in those two games .Nigeria really put us under pressure as soon as they put their foot down a bit.
Still the fear factor in England play generally with the odd exciting moment.We live in hope.

[I'm never wrong]

Your team Leicester Dyna? In theory you have picked up a bargain. WBA rejected £25 million for him earler in the season, you get him for £3m. (There is the issue of timing, of course)

[Diggers]

I still thought England looked pretty average in those two games .Nigeria really put us under pressure as soon as they put their foot down a bit.
Still the fear factor in England play generally with the odd exciting moment.We live in hope.

Do international teams ever look much more than average a lot of the time? I thought they looked really comfortable most of the time, they definitely have the personnel for a back 5. Lots of nice interplay up front, Alli is looking sharp again. They are 10 games unbeaten now with some tough matches in that time, hardly a goal conceded. If you look at Southgate record with the under 21's and the full side it's about played 45, lost 5. I think he knows what he's doing.

[kwinigolfer]

I see you unloaded some Prem salaries this week, Digs; must be happy to see the back of Lens &, Ndong.


Still not sure about this England team, reckon they badly need a good result vs Tunisia just to reinforce whatever confidence they've gained. Agree about Southgate though.

[Diggers]

Yeah, looks like we might be turning a corner financially.
We won't win it, but I hope he sticks with the system. I don't believe any team had a plan B, you just need different players who can bring a different dimension to the system you play. Play a stopper on your back 3 or play Walker. Sterling rather than Rashford, Lingard or Alli. Same system, different challenges for the other side.
I'm looking forward too watching how we go, I'm looking forward to the whole thing to be honest.

[raycastleunited]

I think England's plan B will be the ball over the top to Vardy. This won't work against a team sitting deep. England always struggle to break down teams who sit deep.

I think we always need a plan B, even if it's as simple as lumping it up to Andy Carroll or Peter Crouch.

It's only the very very best teams who don't need a plan B, because they have such good players that eventually they will outplay their opponents. Spain 2010 for example. England don't have those players.

[NedB-H]

I’m not that worried about the teams sitting deep. They’re normally the group stage teams and one way or another we can normally find our way out of the group. It’s the proper footballing teams we’ll have to play if we make a run it the knockouts who we’ll need a plan b against, because they’ll do what we do, but better. A Ranieri’s Leicester style counter attack based on Vardy’s pace is a good option, but I’m not sure Southgate has picked the defense to make that work.

[pedro]

All that talk about Plan A or Plan B. Why not just A Plan?

[NedB-H]

Because if you go into a knockout tournament with only one plan of playing, and you don’t have the best set of players, a team with a better squad will know exactly what to do to beat you.

[pedro]

Yes but I'm talking about not having a plan at all.

[raycastleunited]

Yes but I'm talking about not having a plan at all.

I know your tongue is in your cheek, but that is harsh. I think England's playing style has been fairly consistent for a number of years, it's just been a case of finding the right formation that plays to the strengths of the players available. Southgate has allowed this to evolve and I think he has a very good idea of what he wants.

The challenge of course is that England's attractive playing style goes out of the window when the players all freeze under tournament pressure. (Hopefully this year will be different).

[kwinigolfer]

Still think they could have used a third warm-up game using their A Team rather than going to Russia early and thinking about it, twiddling their laces, playing video games, for six days. Recipe for freezing "under tournament pressure" right there.

[Diggers]

Give me a big example of a big team changing plan mid game. It doesn't happen, complete myth. A 3 at the back is also a 5 if necessary, or becomes a 2 with a sweeper playing high. Good forwards interchange so the formation should always be fluid. These are small changes, no team makes radical formation and style changes mid game, it would be lunacy. What you need is a settled, recognisable style and players who trust it. Worrying about a plan B seems crazy to me when we haven't watched much plan A.

[Diggers]

Re the ball over the top for Vardy as a Plan B, I'd say have a look at his record against the top clubs, its excellent. When games are stretched, and they will be, pace is massive and we have 3 very quick forwards.

[super_realist]

Re the ball over the top for Vardy as a Plan B, I'd say have a look at   his record against the top clubs, its excellent. When games are stretched, and they will be, pace is massive and we have 3 very quick forwards.

Comparing domestic to tournament football is a bit like comparing Matchplay to Strokeplay.

In domestic football, Vardy is surrounded by players who generally perform better than their counterparts for England. The majority of England players don't rate more than 6/10 in tournament football. England have an easy group, so getting out will be progress, but I wouldn't expect them to get much further.

[super_realist]

Re the ball over the top for Vardy as a Plan B, I'd say have a look at   his record against the top clubs, its excellent. When games are stretched, and they will be, pace is massive and we have 3 very quick forwards.

Comparing domestic to tournament football is a bit like comparing Matchplay to Strokeplay.

In domestic football, Vardy is surrounded by players who generally perform better than their counterparts for England. The majority of England players don't rate more than 6/10 in tournament football. England have an easy group, so getting out will be progress, but I wouldn't expect them to get much further.

[Diggers]

No, setting up a team due to past failures would be stupid. You go to a tournament set up to play to your strengths. The players at Leicester are not better than the England squad, I dont think anyone would say that. They had an amazing year based on a game plan, a few good players and great spirit. England need to emulate that. England where once the best team in the world then they weren't. We've recently been poor, to say they will always remain poor make sure no sense to me. There are lots of signs for cautious optimism.
Let's see what happens, all people really want is a commitment to decent football which should end up with a reasonable run. I think we'll get that, I think we'll make the quarters and maybe even the semis.

[Diggers]

Just to clarify England didn't qualify in 74 or 78. They went home from 82 unbeaten after stuffing an excellent French side on the way.
I'd simply ask, could Southgate have done a better job thus far?
1. Qualified.
2. Made a team that does not give away goals, fewest in Europe in qualifying. Any good manager knows you start with a strong defence.
3. Old egos and dead wood gone and a youthful squad picked.
4. Adopted a playing style and picked a squad based on that.
5. Got rid of the cliques and made a happy squad.

He may not have the best pedigree but he knows international football, he's gone into the later stages and is smart enough to have learned from the experience.
Why not give a team going in the right direction a bit of backing rather than slate it before it begins.

[super_realist]

I don't think Southgate could have done any better Diggers. I think he's the best England could have by a very long way. Certainly better than Obese Sam.

England in general do not produce top notch managers, but all he's achieved so far is the same as any other England manager in getting through a very easy qualifying group. Will he do any better? We'll see.

I applaud him for picking a young team in general and getting rid of scum like Wilshere.

As for Leicester and saying they aren't as good as the England players, I see that as a trap that England fall into all the time, they forget about the importance of how good a team can be and concentrate on picking individuals and trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
If anything Leicester/Iceland/Portugal/Wales have shown us that it's not about having 11 big time charlies in your team, but having a cohesive unit who perform as a team, and not a team of individuals.

Having said that, I think England are closer to this than any time in the last 20 years, but they have the least experience as players in the tournament. Last 16 and at a stretch last 8 would represent a fantastic tournament (and a last 8 wouldn't really surprise me with the improvements and easy group on paper)

As for England being the "best team in the world" When? Surely you don't mean 52 years ago?

[Diggers]

Well this England side don't seem to be big time Charlies. Like I say, and as you clearly agree, cautious optimism. Toulon under 21 win for third time in a row with a side including 5 of the under 20 Cup winning side. More guys used to winning international matches. Lewis Cook will have a big season next year I think.
Yes I mean 52 years ago, the whole point is its irrelevant. We might never win a global tournament again (though that seems unlikely) but we will produce good sides and do well again.

[super_realist]

Be realistic Diggers, The Toulon tournament isn't a barometer for anything. Scotland nearly beat them for goodness sake.

Why does it seem "unlikely" that England will never win a tournament again? They've only ever performed at one tournament in the last 40 years that wasn't at home.

Sweden have achieved the same as England in that respect, and Denmark and Greece have won tournaments. I doubt they think that it's "likely" they'll win a tournament again, so why would England?

That's exactly the arrogance and expectation that cause England such problems in the first place. The entitlement that you somehow belong in that company because you won one ONCE, ever such a long time ago.

Do think it likely Uruguay will win another just because they've won it before?

Bottom line is there's a lot of good teams around the world these days, tournaments have more teams, it's a more professional game and it's not 1966 anymore. It's a completely different game. England's level hasn't really improved in 30 years, in fact, prior to this campaign it was at it's lowest ebb whilst countries like Spain, Germany and even smaller countries like Portugal have improved dramatically.

[Diggers]

It's unlikely because bar catastrophe they'll be playing for 100's of years and at some point England, as a big country with a strong league, should be in the reckoning. It could have happened again bar a hand of god, better penalties or a perfectly good Sol Campbell goal being disallowed. They haven't been far off before and won't be again.
Your right, winning age group tournament after age group tournament is a really bad thing.

[Be_the_ball]

The amount of resources and general interest in the game nationally make it statistically very likely England win a major tournament again. Obviously a number of things have to click but it's more likely than Denmark or Greece winning another. Funnily enough for me it will take either a manager who can stand up to the media and not be afraid to drop "big" players, or a group of young players that don't carry the scar tissue. If a group of young players have become used to winning together then it's more likely they will at least want to continue doing that at Snr level. In Paul Scholes book when he spoke about the England setup and what players attitudes were, it spoke volumes about the dysfunction. That type of attitude needs to go before they can achieve success.

[Diggers]

Isn't that just what's happening now BTB? Players are making an effort to not let club hostilities get in the way, maybe because they aren't the really big club names that helps.
I watched Stones talk the other day and he was clearly mates with Rashford. I think these guys are coming through the age groups together (not those 2) and will continue to do so.
At Toulon they had the under 21's play 3 at the back. In the final they also tweaked they system when they were down. Consistancy of plan A with sone form of Plan B when in trouble.
There is definitely a good plan in place for now and for the future.

[Be_the_ball]

Yes Diggers, and as long as Southgate can standup to the media pressure when they start trying to pick the team they have a chance. Funnily enough the Sterling thing could turn out to be a force for good and foster a good old "us against them" attitude in the team. Good also to read a few opinions on here, well clued up on the media antics. Shameful crap from the tabloids right before a major tournament. Anyway best of luck lads

[super_realist]

It's unlikely because bar catastrophe they'll be playing for 100's of years and at some point England, as a big country with a strong league, should be in the reckoning. It could have happened again bar a hand of god, better penalties or a perfectly good Sol Campbell goal being disallowed. They haven't been far off before and won't be again.
Your right, winning age group tournament after age group tournament is a really bad thing.

I thought you were talking about in our lifetimes. Talking any time longer is as useless and vague as a biblical prophecy, and a bit like saying "I predict in the future it is likely there will be wars, i'm not saying when or where, I just think it's likely"

However you can't go on about "if your aunty had balls" scenarios as virtually every single country could claim exactly the same and also overlooks some of the lucky breaks  (1966 ball not over the line for example) England have had when they have been "successful". It goes both ways.


The mistake people make when talking up England and their chances is that they seem to forget about every other country also making improvements and is having their own success and progress.

As for having the resources and interest, well yes, there are, just as there are in Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, etc  but the very best players in the EPL are generally not English, and the most successful clubs have a heavy reliance on non English players and none of them have English managers.

I'm not saying they won't improve or be successful in future, and the junior events they've done well in points to reason for optimism, but it's a very long way from actually winning a proper adult tournament against the best in Europe or the World.

[Be_the_ball]

If Leicester City can win the Premier league then anything can happen. No one gave them a chance.

[pedro]

If Leicester City can win the Premier league then anything can happen. No one gave them a chance.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFB2akLh4s

[Be_the_ball]

If Leicester City can win the Premier league then anything can happen. No one gave them a chance.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFB2akLh4s

"So you're telling me there's a chance..."

The odds are a little better than 1 in a million in fairness.

[raycastleunited]

If Leicester City can win the Premier league then anything can happen. No one gave them a chance.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFB2akLh4s

Hahaha

I think this comparison is relevant for the Euros... we've seen Denmark, Greece and Portugal win it with limited ability.

Not so for the World Cup. There are still only 8 countries who have won it.

[raycastleunited]

Give me a big example of a big team changing plan mid game. It doesn't happen, complete myth.

You are joking right? Teams very frequently make substitutions to alter their tactics.

You want a big example or a big team... what about Germany using Klose up front and then bringing on Bierhoff. Klose was all about pace and quick touches, Bierhoff was a big target man. Allowed Germany to knock long balls into the box, which they frequently did when needed. Plenty of times I've seen Germany play a high pressing game, and then vary it to sit back and play deep.

[I'm never wrong]

Englands preparations seem to be going swimmingly - as opposed to Spains. Might show up how much influence a coach has.

[pedro]

Englands preparations seem to be going swimmingly - as opposed to Spains. Might show up how much influence a coach has.

The head of the Spanish FA says of the sacking: "You can't do things this way, two or three days before the World Cup. We have been compelled to make this decision."

Eeeh? So your ego is more important than the Spanish team? I'm not defending Lopetegui, but you must put the national team and their preparations higher than anything else, such as personnel issues. Unwise to rock the boat at this stage.

[wiretapper]

I dunno Pedro, I think Real Madrid and Lopetegui are the ones in the wrong and while I don't dispute this will have a massive effect on their preparations, they have acted incredibly underhandedly. Lopetegui knew the terms of his contract - as I am sure Madrid did as well - and decided to go ahead anyway when all it would have taken was for them to involve the Spanish FA in the discussion. They chose to hide it until the last minute.

When the news started to break this morning that he may be sacked I hoped they would come to a resolution allowing him to stay on. Spain have played the best football of all the European qualifiers over the last two years and after the debacle of WC14 and the short-comings of EURO16 I was looking forward to seeing them play this month.

[NedB-H]

As I understand it the head of the Spanish FA is a recent appointment. Seems to me that Real have effectively called his bluff that he wouldn’t sack Lopetegui this close to the tournament. Poaching a manager days before a tournament is the ultimate power move so if Lopetegui stayed it’s effectively saying Real are bigger than the Spanish FA. With the political implications I don’t think they had any option but to sack him.

[Diggers]

Give me a big example of a big team changing plan mid game. It doesn't happen, complete myth.  

You are joking right? Teams very frequently make substitutions to alter their tactics.

You want a big example or a big team... what about Germany using Klose up front and then bringing on Bierhoff. Klose was all about pace and quick touches, Bierhoff was a big target man. Allowed Germany to knock long balls into the box, which they frequently did when needed. Plenty of times I've seen Germany play a high pressing game, and then vary it to sit back and play deep.

All of those are easily done without any massive formation change. You can play a 3 5 2 in lots off different ways depending on personnel and the state of a game. Whether you end up playing deep usually comes down to being pressed by another team (England often look hemmed at the back in bad games). If you ship a goal early and a team sits deep then you won't need as much of a press. That's when you need Alli playing between the lines.

[Diggers]

Worth remembering Portugal won the Euros with their weakest team for years. Their best playing performance was beating Wales (which even England did) and they only drew with Iceland and I think Austria . PBacks to the wall against a French side that looked overwhelmed by the occasion.
Not as big a shock as Leicester but in terms of squad strength I wouldn't have had them as a really top team.

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