Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Kwini

I reckon Harry has scored a double eagle.

She's a weird looking bird, more a bogey I'd say.

Kwini, you have very high standards. I seem to remember you thought Lexi was a bit of a minger.

[McLaren]

Let's face it who wouldn't nail her colours...

[Diggers]

It’s Emily Maitlis who is the sort, or would have been 10 years ago. Does wear some incredibly inappropriate short skirts for a political news program...which is fine by me.

[kwinigolfer]

A Tour win for Thomas, should really be one of the biggest sporting achievements in Welsh history. Unfortunately, all a bit tainted by Sky’s history and the contempt for Froome. Shame really.

Digs,
Just watched his interview w/BBC Wales. Very interesting, quite refreshing. As you say, fantastic achievement - nice to see Wales punching above their weight from time to time, and plenty of humility about the whole thing too.
(Actually a good interviewer too, happy to give Thomas the chance to chat, unlike most of the ego-drenched interviewers we'd see over here.)

[pedro]

Watched deChambeaus mea culpa interview on GC. Actually he came across quite well.

[kwinigolfer]

Agreed!
But a bit of a crossroads for him, especially if he can't recover from a lousy Round 1 this week.
Bunsen's with Andy Sullivan & Kiradech next week.

[navyblueshorts]

Let's face it who wouldn't nail her colours...

I must say, for an SJW, that's a pretty inappropriate comment...

[super_realist]

Let's face it who wouldn't nail her colours...

Crikey Mac, I knew your standards were low (Mirka Federer) but Laura Kuensberg is not someone who'd turn one's head.

[McLaren]

Navy

Gotta to say you are right, that probably wasn't the best way to put it. But I am not so woke that I would argue you can never comment on how attractive you find someone, as long as it's appropriate.


Super

OK two challenges for you. Post a picture of a pair of legs that you think look pleasing or reflect what you consider to be physically ideal.

And name a well known celebrity you find attractive.

[super_realist]

Mac, There's nothing wrong with 9C's legs, other than they aren't in proportion with the rest of his body, he looks like the lower half of Peter Crouch with the upper half of Usain Bolt. Preposterous. No wonder he's injury prone.

A well known attractive celebrity? In terms of one's more attractive than Laura Keunsberg or whatever she's called and who work at a similar level in TV, how about Susannah Reid, Laura Verasamy, Victoria Coren, Alice Roberts, Rachel Riley etc? Far nicer.

Far too much being made of this Boris Johnson comment. If you are going to follow a bronze age belief system and be subject to the misogyny of the book of that belief, you ought to expect some ridicule for it.

His comment wasn't becoming of a backbench MP, but for goodness sake, he didn't discriminate against them, he simply described how they appear to him, i.e. expressing an opinion. We still have freedom of speech, and bad/stupid ideas based on bronze age belief systems don't get special treatment. If people are offended by what he said, so what. Nothing happens when you get offended.

If people dressed up like any other fairy tale, they'd get laughed at, what makes religion a special case? Same goes for all religious garb. Why listen to a book or the traditions of a religion to tell you what you should wear, and in terms of Islam, if a woman should cover her head/hair. So should men.

[pedro]

If he’d said that Pornanong looked like Ronald McDonald I wonder if muslim MPs had called for “training” and disciplinary action.

[NedB-H]

I actually more or less agree with super on this...

His comments did deserve to provoke a furore, and he almost certainly wanted them to, but people are getting upset for all the wrong reasons. If you look at the fundamentals of what he said, he said he thinks burkas look ridiculous and like letterboxes, which is rude but nothing that hasn’t been said before. Then he said that he’d expect women to remove them if they visited his office, but supported their right to wear whatever they like in public, even if he thinks it looks daft. That’s the Jack Straw line from ten years ago, and perfectly sensible.
The problem isn’t the facts of what he said, but the way he said it, the timing of it, and what he hopes to gain from it. The only reason to be as crude with the “letterboxes” line as he was, was to upset people. And he knew as soon as someone got upset it would provoke the far right anti-Islam crowd. It’s an argument he’s started, that didn’t need to be had, where he’s hoping that rousing the far right will unstabilise the government and boost his leadership chances. That’s what people should be calling him out on.

[kwinigolfer]

How long before Drumpf uses the same line? They certainly like to lick each other's arse.

[beninho]

Boris is a plank, but he knows what he is doing. Its a step in his aim of trying to become party leader. The words used were deliberately antagonistic, and surely not what a very recent foreign Secretary should say. Its just pandering to the right wing base with anti islam sentiment.

I've never heard him criticise what other religions choose to wear.

[super_realist]

I'm not sure how it is a step to becoming party leader. However, I think in a positive way it's an important debate because it highlights that we shouldn't be giving fairy tales special consideration and that free speech is important.

Just because it's a religion, doesn't mean you are being Islamaphobic describing how they appear to you and doesn't mean the religion should be immune from criticism or ridicule, it is well within Johnson's right to say this,  just as it wouldn't be Catholicphobic to say that nuns and priests look ridiculous, which of course they do.

If you can't handle your appearance based on misogyny and a stone age book being lampooned, probably time to give up your laughable and preposterous beliefs and join any period after the industrial/scientific revolution when stupid beliefs like Islam, Christianity etc effectively should have died.

Why have people become so hypersensitive in the last 5 years or so? People used to have a bit more of a backbone and personal confidence than this. Why do they care what someone says about them? If you really want to look like a postbox, why care what Boris Johnson says, surely it's irrelevant?

If I was a Muslim, i'd be more concerned that some institution tries to dictate what I wear on the basis of my gender to be part of the religion. Johnson isn't the problem, organised religion is. Wearing burkas/nihab's isn't a good way to promote equality between men and women and those criticising Johnson and demanding action be taken are far more intolerant towards the right to free speech than Johnson was being to them.

Johnson hasn't said anything that requires action. He's a backbench MP, and whilst it might not be statesmanlike, there's no apology to be made.

[Be_the_ball]

The problem is Super, not everyone approaches the topic of Religion from an intellectual standpoint, you fancy yourself as 606's answer to Christopher Hitchens. Intellectually your argument is correct. However we all know that's not what Boris is at, he's picking on a minority in order to appeal to the far right.

Unfortunately this appeals to knuckle draggers that use such rhetoric to justify their hate and begrudgery.

[beninho]

Realist, you are anti religion. Thats fine, thats your view. Bj isnt. He isn't having a go at all religions, he isn't saying sikhs shouldn't wear turbans, jews shouldn't wear skull caps, Christian shouldn't wear crosses. He is purely picking on islam in order to appeal to the right wing and garnet further suppory for his likely bid to become leader.

I'm surprised if people cannot see this is what he's doing.

[Diggers]

I can’t think of a single thing Johnson has ever done that didn’t have an agenda...the agenda being him. Anyone who thinks he said this to provoke an informed argument and defends him on that premise is a complete and utter mug. And whatever you think about how people (and specifically in this case women) dress, there is no reason to present your view in this kind of playground manner when you (sadly) hold a senior office. Burkas have had no impact on the security or the well being of other British citizens, none, so why make that a debate? If you wanted to have a conversation about reduced women’s right in Islam and how that could be monitored, well there is a debate there, instead he insults Muslim women. What a guy...

[pedro]

Ironic that back in the day the Left was all for womens rights and critical of religion. But nowadays, when it comes to Islam, they fend off every criticism with all sorts of arguments.

[Diggers]

You really think this is a debate about women’s rights?

[pedro]

You really think this is a debate about women’s rights?

Not only, but to some extend. And my comment was also of a more general character, which you are welcome to relate to.

[beninho]

Has Boris ever talked about orthodox Judaism and the rights of women?

[Diggers]

You really think this is a debate about women’s rights?

Not only, but to some extend. And my comment was also of a more general character, which you are welcome to relate to.

So insulting women is supporting their rights? In the middle of the left being in a storm over anti semitism they are suddenly pro religion? Where is any evidence the left is suddenly averse to women’s rights? Have you decided that on the back of this Johnson jibberish or do you have any valid policy/appointment/agenda examples?

[beninho]

If a woman is made or forced to wear a burqa or niqab or veil it is wrong in any country of the world. If any woman is forced or made to wear anything or do anything against their will it is also wrong.

But if a woman makes the choice to wear it then why call them bank robbers or postbox. People talk about freedom of speech which is fine but surely clashes with freedom of religion if said speech is anti religious.

"We can say what we want, but you can't do what you want"

[McLaren]

Why would we assume Boris was just supporting women's rights when he has a long history of making racist comments.

And "just criticising a religion" can be racist when the intentions behind what is being said. Dawkins and Hitchens liked to say Islam is nor a race but unfortunately for them racism isn't that simple and just making up a rule can't shield you from being exposed as a racist.


If as Ben and diggers have pointed out you are shaming one particular group of people to incite anti immigrant sentiments then what are you going to call it other than racism?

[pedro]

So it’s racist to think/say burkas look stupid?

As I said, my comment is of a more general character: What do you think about objectifying women, even if it’s based on religion? Some women may say they wear burkas for different reasons but the fact is that it’s based on religious beliefs regarding the womans place in society.

And how can it be an insult if they choose to wear it voluntarily?

Also, I didn’t say the left is pro religion. But they do fail/neglect/avoid to address all the issues surrounding Islam who is very much in your face throughout Europe, for all the wrong reasons. Maybe someone should hire them a PR agency; the political correct Left is certaintly not doing the job for them.

Far right parties are on the advance all over Europe. Currently the far right Sweden Democrats are looking at 20-25% of the votes at the upcoming general elections. Even they’ve had enough. And it’s not the likes of Boris Johnson we have to thank for this.

[NedB-H]

But that’s the rest of Europe Pedro. The far right isn’t on the rise nearly so much in the UK, despite Tommy Robinson’s best efforts. The BNP are finished, the EDL couldn’t organise a bar fight never mind a functioning political party, and even UKIP are getting wiped out in the polls. When it comes to burkas, we had that debate years ago; Jack Straw said similar to Johnson in less provocative terms, and he hasn’t been in government for 8 years.
Johnson had to peg his column on a new law in Denmark - since when have we cared what Denmark does - because it’s not a debate we’ve needed to have in this country for a long time. If you think the man actually cares less either way about burkas you’re being very naive. If he did he’s just had two years as a leading cabinet member to push his ideas. His only motive is to stir up trouble in the hope of destabilising the government to advance his own career.

Having a debate about burkas is exactly playing into the man’s hands, because he’s been very careful to err just shy of outright racist views. No one really disagrees on burkas. Some people think they look daft, that’s their prerogative. Most of us, even Boris agree that women should be allowed to wear them if they want to, but individual institutions have the right to ask for face coverings to be removed for security reasons. There’s no real debate, the only controversy that should be here is that it’s unwise and unnecessary for a prominent politician to use needlessly antagonistic language to discuss the issue. If you want to call them letterboxes down the pub to your mate, go for it. But there’s no need to do it in a national newspaper column when you’ve just quit as foreign secretary.

[Diggers]

So it’s racist to think/say burkas look stupid?

As I said, my comment is of a more general character: What do you think about objectifying women, even if it’s based on religion? Some women may say they wear burkas for different reasons but the fact is that it’s based on religious beliefs regarding the womans place in society.

And how can it be an insult if they choose to wear it voluntarily?

Also, I didn’t say the left is pro religion. But they do fail/neglect/avoid to address all the issues surrounding Islam who is very much in your face throughout Europe, for all the wrong reasons. Maybe someone should hire them a PR agency; the political correct Left is certaintly not doing the job for them.

Far right parties are on the advance all over Europe. Currently the far right Sweden Democrats are looking at 20-25% of the votes at the upcoming general elections. Even they’ve had enough. And it’s not the likes of Boris Johnson we have to thank for this.

Did I say they were racist? What they are is inflammatory, stupid and pointless. And I’d say there is, looking at everything the tool had said in the past, a case the be made that Johnson is a racist in some level.
The fact we have middle class, christian white blokes somehow being experts and massively concerned on Islam and supporting women (whilst never supporting the advancement of women as a rule) strikes me as very ironic.
It’s myopic to suggest that either the political left or right is doing a great job re religious issues but I don’t see any Labour front benchers saying something that pointless and stupid.
Still waiting to see how the Left is somehow lagging behind the Right on women’s rights in general, if you look at the measures the Conservatives are taking re benefits they are massively detrimental to women, but hey, as long as they have a poo at what they feel a burka look like it’s all good.

[McLaren]

Pedro

You seem to be struggling with this. A man with a history of racist views insulting women from his position as an elected official to normalise anti immigrant ideas is not the same as questioning whether a woman's rights have been harmed.

And as pointed out by ned above context can also come into this.

[super_realist]

If a woman is made or forced to wear a burqa or niqab or veil it is wrong in any country of the world. If any woman is forced or made to wear anything or do anything against their will it is also wrong.

But if a woman makes the choice to wear it then why call them bank robbers or postbox. People talk about freedom of speech which is fine but surely clashes with freedom of religion if said speech is anti religious.

"We can say what we want, but you can't do what you want"

If a woman is forced to wear a burkha, then that shows how backward and suppressive a religion is and it should be challenged, if she chooses to wear a burkha then it is not a religious matter and therefore cannot be construed as being Islamophobic.

You CANNOT be racist against something to which you can convert. Islam, like Judaism or Christianity is not an effing race.  Commenting on how stupid a burkha looks is exactly the same as if someone chose to wear Leiderhosen every day of their lives, or decided wearing the full Liverpool home kit out every day. That wouldn't make you "Liverpoolphobic" that would just be a comment on how stupid something looks.  Just because it's associated with a religion, it's no more different to laughing at someone wearing a bright pink suit.  We all laughed at the white Liverpool suits for example, or how about Dennis Rodman, MC Hammer, or people in hoodies, or the way golfers look.

Muslims don't deserve extra consideration for their choice of clothes anymore than someone else wearing ridiculous clothes. You'd laugh if someone wore John Daly trousers and short down the pub or at work, why not at a burkha?


Freedom of speech isn't even clashing with freedom of religion as it doesn't stop them "practicing" their religion. It's merely a comment on appearance, and there is NEVER a benefit to a woman having to cover up to the effect that she is just eyes in a garment.

Islam can GTF. Trying to force special consideration on us has no place in any modern society. If you want to "practice" a religion, then you can do so in the home, or in your special fairy tale book club premises. It deserves no place or no special treatment anywhere else. Not in school, not in the workplace, not in any public place where people are supposed to do anything to accommodate such infantile and ridiculous practices.

No one has to respect beliefs or the customs associated with them, you simply have the right to hold those beliefs and be permitted to practice them. Nothing else. So if anyone wants to say you look stupid in your fancy dress costume, that's simply hard cheese.

ALso, what Johnson said is nowhere near the level of offence in regards to how Islam actually treats women. If they really want something to complain about, perhaps look in their own institutions where women are worth 50% of a man.

I hate seeing the burkha, and I think it looks possibly the most stupid garment I've ever seen anyone wear. That's nothing to do with being racist and everything to do with despising religion and the outdated way it holds people back.

Perhaps the only thing for certain here is that Islam has a sensitivity issue, it simply cannot take any criticism without having a persecution complex. It should grow up and stop taking itself so bloody seriously.

[beninho]

Realist, How many people have you personally seen wearing a burqa or full veil in the last week, month or year?

Do you go mental when you see a nun? What about Sikhs, do you hate the turban? What about Hasidic jews, do you froth with anger when you see them? What about buddhist monks?

[beninho]

I've definitely seen worse clothes then a burqa. Just look at most fashion shows.

[super_realist]

In the last month, maybe a couple of dozen, what with Edinburgh being more "diverse" than Mac would have you believe.

It's not about the number, it's not about security or anything like that. It's about being able to make a comment about something without being construed as being "racist" or "islamophobic".

I don't care when I see a Sikh or a Hindu, because I don't see women being oppressed in that religion and being made/pressured to wear one.


I do get annoyed that any institution based on belief systems which I consider to be brainwashing and dangerous (including Hasidic Jews) that forces people to appear in particular clothing, against their will and especially if these people think that they should be immune from anyone making a comment on it.

I also despise the gender element of who has to wear what. Why is a woman required to "dress modestly", but not men?

The most ironic thing is that Muslims complain about this sort of "language" by Johnson, but do nothing to change their backward and revolting religion from actively discriminating against women and treating them as second class citizens. Shame they can't see the irony.

[beninho]

You are clearly islamaphobic though. You hate islam. You appear to hate all religions, but you mainly keep it to Islam. Not really heard any particular views on judaism, hindhuism, Buddhism.

Though surprised by the lack of issues with sikhs wearing turbans which in most cases as religious a choice as the burqa or hijab.

[NedB-H]

You love accusing Mac of straw man arguments super. Who on this thread has actually said what Johnson did was “racist” or “Islamophobic”? We’ve actually gone to lengths to AVOID those terms, and spelled out that Johnson was being careful to stay just short of saying anything that actually fell under those categories.
I consider myself atheist, and I completely agree with you in regarding the “brainwashing” elements of
religion distasteful, particularly raising kids in religion without introducing them to other ideas. I would agree with you regarding the suppression of women too, but I’d like to know your evidence for saying it’s an inherent part of Islam. I’ve met plenty of women who considered themselves Muslim and not remotely oppressed, or at least by their chosen religion. You can find sexism and chauvinism in any religion if you look for it.

The important point is though, although I might have these views about religion I’m still polite and civil to any religious people I come across. I find the dress of Hasidic Jews at least as daft as burkas, but I’d never dream of saying that to someone wearing it. Whether such a comment would qualify as “anti-Semitic” is kind of irrelevant, in the same way as it’s irrelevant whether Johnson strayed into outright Islamophobia or not. The point is, it’d be a rude and insulting thing to say to someone.

Your views on religion are fair enough, but I’d like to think when you encounter religious people in your life you bite your tongue on the more strident opinions whilst dealing with them. And Boris is entitled to his opinions on burkas, but the stupid and unnecessary thing was for him to put them down in such crude terms in a national newspaper, when he’s a prominent politician. It doesn’t matter whether he was actually “Islamophobic” or not, and since he’s a professional controversialist he probably knew exactly where to draw the line. What matters is that he was unnecessarily provocative about something associated with Islam, and that will almost certainly inflame tensions amongst the far right. It’s dangerous behaviour, and that’s why he should be criticised.

[kwinigolfer]

We have hundreds, possibly thousands of men & women wearing traditional dress here in our small town. Must admit, I think that's great, in many cases beautiful.
How dare Johnson or Drumpf snark at them/us?

[super_realist]

You love accusing Mac of straw man arguments super. Who on this thread has actually said what Johnson did was “racist” or “Islamophobic”? We’ve actually gone to lengths to AVOID those terms, and spelled out that Johnson was being careful to stay just short of saying anything that actually fell under those categories.
I consider myself atheist, and I completely agree with you in regarding the “brainwashing” elements of
religion distasteful, particularly raising kids in religion without introducing them to other ideas. I would agree with you regarding the suppression of women too, but I’d like to know your evidence for saying it’s an inherent part of Islam. I’ve met plenty of women who considered themselves Muslim and not remotely oppressed, or at least by their chosen religion. You can find sexism and chauvinism in any religion if you look for it.

The important point is though, although I might have these views about religion I’m still polite and civil to any religious people I come across. I find the dress of Hasidic Jews at least as daft as burkas, but I’d never dream of saying that to someone wearing it. Whether such a comment would qualify as “anti-Semitic” is kind of irrelevant, in the same way as it’s irrelevant whether Johnson strayed into outright Islamophobia or not. The point is, it’d be a rude and insulting thing to say to someone.

Your views on religion are fair enough, but I’d like to think when you encounter religious people in your life you bite your tongue on the more strident opinions whilst dealing with them. And Boris is entitled to his opinions on burkas, but the stupid and unnecessary thing was for him to put them down in such crude terms in a national newspaper, when he’s a prominent politician. It doesn’t matter whether he was actually “Islamophobic” or not, and since he’s a professional controversialist he probably knew exactly where to draw the line. What matters is that he was unnecessarily provocative about something associated with Islam, and that will almost certainly inflame tensions amongst the far right. It’s dangerous behaviour, and that’s why he should be criticised.

Well Mac has for a start.

Of course wearing a headcovering is inherent to Islam, what other religion insists upon women covering their head? However, if these women who wear this garb are not doing it in deference to their fairy tale, then therefore they shouldn't be turning round and claiming it to be "offensive" or "islamophobic".

Either it's a religious garment, or it isn't. Either way, criticising the garment for what it looks like is not dependent on WHY people wear it.

How many times have you seen someone receive the joke "Are you wearing that for a bet?" That's exactly the level of "Insult" that Johnson has done here, the degree of fake outrage is absurdly disproportionate to the original joke it is a retort to.

Fortunately I don't have people forcing religion down my throat and faking persecution on the basis of a joke. I'd like to think in a country that is atheist in the majority that they won't kowtow to disgusting belief systems and that the majority of people who subscribe to such beliefs have the good manners to keep it to themselves.

No one has a problem with these morons believing what they want, just that they shouldn't get special treatment for it and that they should take an insult the same way any other person not having to hide behind the shield of religion tries to do. IF anything, we should ridicule these beliefs more, not give them special dispensation to be excused ridicule.

I've already said it's not Johnson's place to make light of it given his previous position, but we shouldn't treat any religion as a special case. They all deserve to be mocked and laughed at, because they are indefensible and as laughable as any other fairy tale or myth.

[super_realist]

You are clearly islamaphobic though. You hate islam. You appear to hate all religions, but you mainly keep it to Islam. Not really heard any particular views on judaism, hindhuism, Buddhism.

Though surprised by the lack of issues with sikhs wearing turbans which in most cases as religious a choice as the burqa or hijab.

I hate Islam, yes, how could you not, but I don't hate the people who happen to be Muslim. Having legitimate reasons to dislike a religion doesn't make you "islamaphobic" though does it? Phobias are by definition IRRATIONAL, there's very good reasons to dislike religion. I hate all religions equally, it's just that at the current time the most problematic religion happens to be Islam. If I was alive in the 1930's I'd have said it was Catholicism.

Judaism and Hinduism don't appear to cause much problem and Buddhism is barely even a religion given that they don't have a god.

Turbans may be a requirement, but it's simply the head or more specifically the hair, it isn't an entire body and doesn't force an entire gender to be considered second class and supressed by those wearing it does it? That's my objection to burka's etc, how it is designed to oppress females.

[beninho]

Islamophobia is the fear, hatred of, or prejudice against, the Islamic religion or Muslims generally- quoted ftom Wikipedia

I hate Islam, yes - quote from super realist.

Own it baby. Don't hide from it. Go and join tommy robinson and his gang. Islamaphobic realist, you should change your name.

Do you ever have to employ and interview people for jobs?

[super_realist]

What is wrong with hating a religion which is not equal and which the punishment for leaving is death? Why try to paint me as a villain for hating something which is a terrible idea to believe and follow? (well done on missing out the crucial part of the definition though, very crafty)

Hilarious that you say I should join Tommy Robinson for saying I dislike religion, talk about the typical kneejerk reaction. That's the equivalent of Godwins Law. You can legitimately dislike religion without being like Tommy Robinson. I'm probably more like Maajid Nawaz when it comes to criticising Islam.  How am I discriminating against the religion. I'm pointing out WHY it is such a bad belief system. Why would you try to deny how backward and brainwashing it is?

Yes, I do have to employ and hire people, but given that they have to understand that the earth is 4.5bn years old and part of a natural process to do the job, sort of means that they'd be too embarrassed to bring their fairy tale up doesn't it?

I have known and got on with Muslims, but fortunately the majority of religious people understand that their beliefs don't go down well in a work or social environment, so thankfully it's never brought up.

[Be_the_ball]

This is a pretty sad thread today. Looks like Boris knows there's gold to be mined, and is willing to stoop low enough to mine it.

[super_realist]

I really can't see how it will do him any benefit. He's cleaver enough to see the harm that it has done Comrade Corbyn blowing his political chances of an election win to be seen as  an anti semitic party leader who socialises with Hamas and refuses to condemn many anti semitic statements. Surely he's bright enough to see that poking fun at Islam dress will have similar effect on him and his party?

Both Labour and the Tories are in complete disarray. No one gains from this really as far as I can see.

[dynamark]

At present I am working in darkest Leicester highfields area which is basically a moslem area mosques.halal the full works.Like a little community of its own everyone knows everyone in rows of terraced streets and most are very polite and friendly.Large extended families in one house very different to other parts of town.But it is a different place with a separate identity. Just yesterday I went to a property I had been to several times and the young lady wasn't wearing the birka as she always has in the past her partner was at home.So much easier and pleasant to discuss the issues with them and very relaxed and yet previously she wouldnt even come to the door unless fully covered.I get the feeling she covers up in her own community but doesn't feel the same outside of that group.
Still don't get it though.How many times do you here 'we are not allowed to do x 'because of religion

[Be_the_ball]

Gary Neville & the Premier League trophy outside the office in Dublin today...

[beninho]

So tranny deadline day is done, squads are settled. Man city adding Mahrez strengthens them. Liverpool have made some good signings. You'd exp them to be top 2. Fulham, everton and hammers seem to have had a good window in the end as have wolves.

[kwinigolfer]

Hoping that Danny Ings coming home is good for Southampton - provided it goes through.
Otherwise, how many are going to find subtraction by addition? I'd say Everton for starters.
Burnley with at least four goalies, and Chelsea paying 35 mil to (possibly) downgrade.

Bizarre, and doesn't do Southgate any good if he's hoping for young English players to get a decent chance of Premier playing time.

[Diggers]

Ings is a good buy, offers plenty. I think we will see a lot of young English players next year Kwini, they are too good not to play. Lots of teenagers getting game time, a lot of lads under 23 starting, can’t wait to see what Sessignon does. Foden again showed what a talent he is in the Charity Shield, Loftus Cheek back at Chelsea will be interesting, it’s exciting times.

[kwinigolfer]

Ings is a good buy, offers plenty. I think we will see a lot of young English players next year Kwini, they are too good not to play. Lots of teenagers getting game time, a lot of lads under 23 starting, can’t wait to see what Sessignon does. Foden again showed what a talent he is in the Charity Shield, Loftus Cheek back at Chelsea will be interesting, it’s exciting times.

Hope you're right Digs, but the more overseas coaches come in, the more they bring in international players, many of whom are no better, some a lot worse, than the GB or I guy they're replacing. Can see Everton being a case in point, as Saints have been since Koeman left; hate seeing young'uns getting warehoused on the bench or worse.

[Diggers]

A lot more of our kids are going abroad now , Kwini. Good to see that as well. At the end of the day if the kids are good enough they will play, plenty did last year.

[super_realist]

A lot more of our kids are going abroad now , Kwini. Good to see that as well. At the end of the day if the kids are good enough they will play, plenty did last year.

About time Diggers, been saying it for years.

[JAS]

I really can't see how it will do him any benefit. He's cleaver enough to see the harm that it has done Comrade Corbyn blowing his political chances of an election win to be seen as  an anti semitic party leader who socialises with Hamas and refuses to condemn many anti semitic statements. Surely he's bright enough to see that poking fun at Islam dress will have  similar effect on him and his party?

Both Labour and the Tories are in complete disarray. No one gains from this really as far as I can see.

I would say otherwise Super. I don’t believe for a minute that Johnson spoke without thinking on this one. It was a clear, calculated “pebble thrown into the pond” to create and observe the ripples. Those kind of statements are quite deliberately engineered to divide the masses by engaging them in an immigration & national values type debate. Of course the media help by going into a feeding frenzy over it. Rather than disciplining him the Tories should be congratulating him because for me the biggest piece of news this week was the Conservative Northamptonshire County Council going financially belly up. Just think about that, a Conservative council going bust under a conservative administration. If that doesn’t highlight the ridiculous state of government finances and the lies were being fed then I don’t know what does. Burkagate has pretty much buried it as a topic of conversation.

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