Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Kwini

I reckon Harry has scored a double eagle.

She's a weird looking bird, more a bogey I'd say.

Kwini, you have very high standards. I seem to remember you thought Lexi was a bit of a minger.

[pedro]

navy, In theory I agree. But UEFA need to make sure the money adds up by offering a 2nd tier tournament that TV networks, sponsors and fans will embrace.

And it's only 3rd place fininshers that parachute into the EL - which makes the CL group stage relevant till the end.

[beninho]

Season 1999/00 clubs who had already competed in the Champs League were allowed to compete in the Uefa Cup/ Europa League. 19 finals and 8 winners who had previously been knocked out of the Champs league.

I think the mix is good. The champions league is so dominated by the massive clubs, this gives the opportunity to the next level of club to get a chance to win something and get the chance to also get a slice of the champions league money pie!

[pedro]

Tho UEFA did consider doubling the number of teams in the CL and scrapping the EL. Dunno what happened to that idea. It would probably mean more games for the top teams, and less for the softer teams, which could be a show stopper?

[JAS]

I’ve always thought the Europa is pretty tinpot, but recently I’ve been reading opinions from fans of clubs who feature in it and I’ve kind of reassessed. The Champions League is getting ever more dominated by the same teams, so as a fan even if your club does make the group stage you’re likely on a hiding to nothing. The Europa gives clubs outside of England/Spain/Germany, and non elite clubs in those leagues, something to aim for. And for fans it’s a chance to watch something different, and visit new places if they want to do away games. Celtic to Baku is a trek but that’s because they’re the two extremities; if you’re Hungarian or Slovakian or Serbian neither is more ridiculous than the other. Same as Carlisle playing Plymouth, a nuisance for those two but inevitable when you’re located somewhere inaccessible.

Being at a lower level there’s always the inclination to consider the Europa League “Tinpot” especially in comparison to the champions league. I however would agree with your reassessment Ned but from a more cynical standpoint. I think the CL is becoming a monetarist elitist charade, a pissing up the wall contest for the clubs with the biggest money laundering owners. It’s also a huge misnomer, how many of the previous 20 winners have been champions of their own league on entering? I’ve said before I no longer see the day when a team outside of Spain, England, Italy, Germany or France can possibly have a chance of winning the CL therefore for the Dutch, Portuguese, Belgian, Russian, Croatian, Scottish, Greek, Swedish etc teams the Europa League presents a more relevant competition. I know I’m in the minority but my personal view is that those nations should tell Uefa to go Shaft itself and form an alternative and leave the money launderers to play with each other on their own.

[pedro]

Jas, I think you’ll have a hard time convincing clubs like Ajax, Feyenoord, Anderlecht, Benfica, Porto, Olympiakos, Celtic, Spartak Moscow, Zenit, Shakthar, etc. that they shouldn’t parttake in a pissing up the wall contest with teams from the 5 big leagues.

[super_realist]

Many of those teams don't have a choice Pedro as they aren't good enough to get through qualification.

[kwinigolfer]

Stifling conditions in New York again for the Open Tennis. Looks like Isner could keel over at any minute.

And Serena Williams gets her fourth (out of five) night game, just to keep her out of the worst of it (tho' it didn't do Federer much good . . . . . .)

[pedro]

just to keep her out of the worst of it

Roland Garros already took care of that...

[kwinigolfer]

[navyblueshorts]

I’ve always thought the Europa is pretty tinpot, but recently I’ve been reading opinions from fans of clubs who feature in it and I’ve kind of reassessed. The Champions League is getting ever more dominated by the same teams, so as a fan even if your club does make the group stage you’re likely on a hiding to nothing. The Europa gives clubs outside of England/Spain/Germany, and non elite clubs in those leagues, something to aim for. And for fans it’s a chance to watch something different, and visit new places if they want to do away games. Celtic to Baku is a trek but that’s because they’re the two extremities; if you’re Hungarian or Slovakian or Serbian neither is more ridiculous than the other. Same as Carlisle playing Plymouth, a nuisance for those two but inevitable when you’re located somewhere inaccessible.

Being at a lower level there’s always the inclination to consider the Europa League “Tinpot” especially in comparison to the champions league. I however would agree with your reassessment Ned but from a more cynical standpoint. I think the CL is becoming a monetarist elitist charade, a pissing up the wall contest for the clubs with the biggest money laundering owners. It’s also a huge misnomer, how many of the previous 20 winners have been champions of their own league on entering? I’ve said before I no longer see the day when a team outside of Spain, England, Italy, Germany or France can possibly have a chance of winning the CL therefore for the Dutch, Portuguese, Belgian, Russian, Croatian, Scottish, Greek, Swedish etc teams the Europa League presents a more relevant competition. I know I’m in the minority but my personal view is that those nations should tell Uefa to go Shaft itself and form an alternative and leave the money launderers to play with each other on their own.

Well put. Include me in that 'minority' (which I suspect actually isn't one...).

[JAS]

Jas, I think you’ll have a hard time convincing clubs like Ajax, Feyenoord, Anderlecht, Benfica, Porto, Olympiakos, Celtic, Spartak Moscow, Zenit, Shakthar, etc. that they shouldn’t parttake in a pissing up the wall contest with teams from the 5 big leagues.

Indeed Pedro and those are EXACTLY the clubs that need to push for change. What has happened to UEFAs much trumpeted “Financial fair play”. Bloody toothless charade as usual. The problem is that there isn’t a level playing field. In one sense the problem isn’t UEFAs it’s the grotesque imbalances in TV rights/income in the big 5 leagues compared to the others. It’s not going to change without some sort of radical action/threat. The rich will get richer, commercialism will get even more excruciating and the elite teams will get further and further away from the true essence and spirit of the game Uefa could actually help by pumping a lot more money into the Europa League in comparison to the CL and make it a real stepping stone to compete in the CL from non big 5 league teams.
The possibility of a breakaway may encourage UEFA to have a rethink, it may not. If it didn’t then fair enough, the 2nd tier countries teams could be back in a place where there was a more open competition that more than half a dozen teams had a realistic chance of winning.

[kwinigolfer]

Making America Great Again:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/09/05/kennewick-washington-man-alleged-sexual-assault-beaver-meth-possession-police/1205843002/

Probably sounds good to Drumpf right now . . . . . . .

[pedro]

Making America Great Again:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/09/05/kennewick-washington-man-alleged-sexual-assault-beaver-meth-possession-police/1205843002/

Probably sounds good to Drumpf right now . . . . . . .

Probably the last beaver he will get for a while..

[NedB-H]

Serena Williams is very good at tennis, but she’s also an absolutely horrendous example of sportspeople being good role models. Disgraceful behaviour today.

[super_realist]

She must be one of the worst losers in sport. A disgrace last night and a real shame for Osaka who should have had nothing but good memories from her first win of a major.
Williams absolutely ruined this for her and I hope her behaviour comes with greater punishment than a docked game.
Serena really does think she's bigger than the game.

Ghastly human being and a spoiled brat still boring us with the fact she's a mum. So effing what. No one cared about Klijsters or Azarenka being mums, but somehow were all supposed to be in awe of Williams being one.

[beninho]

England lost, I didn't watch it. But the goal was a thing of beauty. Played out from the back in a tight position to score. Really good to see. And that welbeck goal should clearly have stood. Other thrn that no opinion.

I didn't watch any of the Serena Williams thing, only know what I read, which is she acted like an bumhole. But when did a player ladt get a violation for coaching?

[pedro]

Serena Williams is very good at tennis, but she’s also an absolutely horrendous example of sportspeople being good role models. Disgraceful behaviour today.

Apparently there’s a fine line between guerilla tactics and monkey business.

[Diggers]

Williams was OTT, no doubt about that. The coaching violation was a complete joke though, they never call them so why now? All in all a shame for Osaka.

[NedB-H]

Djokovic and Cecchinato both got coaching code violations at the French Open in the same match I believe. Murray and Verdasco had a blazing row after their match in this tournament over whether one should have been issued; that was probably weighing on the umpire’s mind last night.
The fundamental stupidity of it all is that Serena’s temper, ego and pride blew it up so much more than it needed to be. A code violation first warning is so insignificant and happens a lot, she should just have got on with things and vented in her interview afterwards. Instead she tried to make herself bigger than the game over a minor ruling. It was reminiscent of Pakistan forfeiting that Test a few years ago over a five run penalty.

There’s quite a sad irony in Serena hinting at sexism, racism and prejudice against new mothers in her rant. She was playing an opponent who is also a mixed race American citizen. And the last time she blew up at officials like this was when she lost to Clijsters, when she was playing her first tournament since giving birth.
I’m sure Serena has encountered those prejudices at points, but it’s pretty obvious she now has a victim mentality , justified or not, which means she sees every criticism through those lenses.

[navyblueshorts]

Djokovic and Cecchinato both got coaching code violations at the French Open in the same match I believe. Murray and Verdasco had a blazing row after their match in this tournament over whether one should have been issued; that was probably weighing on the umpire’s mind last night.
The fundamental stupidity of it all is that Serena’s temper, ego and pride blew it up so much more than it needed to be. A code violation first warning is so insignificant and happens a lot, she should just have got on with things and vented in her interview afterwards. Instead she tried to make herself bigger than the game over a minor ruling. It was reminiscent of Pakistan forfeiting that Test a few years ago over a five run penalty.

There’s quite a sad irony in Serena hinting at sexism, racism and prejudice against new mothers in her rant. She was playing an opponent who is also a mixed race American citizen. And the last time she blew up at officials like this was when she lost to Clijsters, when she was playing her first tournament since giving birth.
I’m sure Serena has encountered those prejudices at points, but it’s pretty obvious she now has a victim mentality , justified or not, which means she sees every criticism through those lenses.

Well put.

[Diggers]

At the opposite end of the role model scale, sad to see Cook go. A guy who weird every last molecule of ability to carve a fantastic career. They really did break the mould when he came along. By all accounts and absolutely top bloke as well. Super, you can have a go at him because his wife looks normal.

[super_realist]

Diggers, I'm happy if a sportsman breaks the mould and has a normal wife.

I've actually been told I look a bit like Cook, so I'm not going to have a go at the fellow.

[NedB-H]

I thought you grumbled about Federer having a plain wife super?

[super_realist]

No, I wasn't grumbling about her being plain, there's nothing wrong with being normal and plain, I'd much rather have a normal looking wife than one of those vacuous, blonde indentikit "princesses" that footballers tend to favour.

In regards to Federer I was having a go at Mac for saying that she was hot. She's ordinary and plain and if Mac passed her in the Edinburgh streets he wouldn't even notice, but because she's attached to Federer, somehow that makes her more attractive. It doesn't. She's better looking that your average fat Brit, but nothing remotely special and nothing that isn't bettered any time you walk around a continental European city.

[beninho]

Realist, do you have a gf or wife, ever been married?

Whos your celeb fantasy, your type of girl or guy?

[kwinigolfer]

I see Williams got done $17K, which is ridiculously trivial. Pity they can't penalise the crowd too, it was like a Drumpf rally goading the mob into toxic booing of women/blacks/dems/gays/immigrants/sh1thole countries.
I can't stand divas in any sport, but Williams is even worse than Sharapova.

But tennis has got to get some consistency in its umpiring, too many black eyes this week and last. Trust Alison Hughes gets thru this evening unscathed.

Osaka played terrific tennis, hope she goes on to win some more Grand Slams, hopefully beating Williams in a couple.

[NedB-H]

I think tennis is belatedly catching up to other sports in realising that officials can interpret rules in different ways, and you have to be able to read your referees. Reading up it’s clear last night’s ump is a stickler with a history of enforcing code violations where others might be more lenient. That’s life, football and rugby have strict officials too.

Not sure I buy the argument flying around that the situation would’ve been handled differently in a men’s game though. I can think of loads of examples of male players getting penalised for behaviour, Johnny McEnroe got docked games all the time. I remember Jeff Tarango, Henman and Nalbandian getting kicked out of tournaments but I couldn’t give you an example of a woman getting a DQ.

As for Serena she’s clearly a thoroughly dislikeable character, as top sportspeople often are. Lucky for her she’s in a sport with a history of them, she’ll go down in the history of unpleasant tennis champions as behind Court, Năstase and Bobby Riggs at the very least. And then there’s Bill Tilden who spent his retirement getting thrown in prison for touching up boys.

[ralphjohn69]

Serena is a hideous person, regardless of her colour, sex, parental status, etc.

[pedro]

Ok to be upset. But playing on sexism and motherhood is just effing pathetic.

[super_realist]

Seems sexism is becoming the new race card.

1. Serena's coach did admit to coaching.  Therefore umpire was justified.
2. Serena broke a racket, therefore she was justifiably handed a code violation.
3. Serena verbally abused the umpire and inferred dishonesty. Therefore her punishment was just.
4. The umpire has a history of handing out code violations to both men and women, so any claim of sexism or a lack of consistency is just preposterous, furthermore it's not the place to voice her petulant opinion.

Serena doesn't have a leg to stand on.  I remember her getting similarly angered when she was getting beaten by Heather Watson. She was almost in tears. What a horrible brat she is.
She also had a blow up when getting beaten by Kiljsters, who ironically had just returned to the tour after giving birth.

She should have been fined her entire tournament prize for absolutely ruining Osaka's big day. Hopefully this is the beginning of a quick demise for this revolting creature.

[Davie]

Amazingly there seems to be growing support for Serena! Hard to understand...

[super_realist]

Seems there's a hardcore of virtue signallers for this sort of thing Davie. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Mac was on Williams side because he feels she's an oppressed minority.


What Williams did was indefensible, Tarango like levels of petulance. A similar ban to his would be fair.

[raycastleunited]

Serena Williams is arguably the biggest name in tennis. None of the "big" male players are American so don't have her $$$ profile. She ticks a lot of diversity boxes, although would be better if she was a single parent and a lesbian. Authorities need to tread a fine line between setting an example and shooting themselves in the foot.

I expect we will see a public apology from her soon, maybe a donation to some sort of charity, and a slap on the wrist.

[NedB-H]

What I find most extraordinary is that the sexism/racism card is being played, when the reality is completely the opposite - any other player acting as Serena did would be slated by fans and media, and rightly so. Just like McEnroe, and Tarango, and Năstase, and Kyrgios.

Even the WTA is now supporting the sexism line, when it’s patently obvious with a look at the umpire’s record that he’s just as strict with the men. I hope he sues for defamation.

[kwinigolfer]

Trouble is that, rather like Tarango in the GB media, it's McEnroe here who is among the leaders in criticism, all a bit like Joey Barton talking about referees.
All we need now is Tomic or Tiriac or Nastase, perhaps Jelene Dokic's Dad(?), weighing in and the lunatics will all be in charge.

[super_realist]

Serena Williams is arguably the biggest name in tennis. None of the "big" male players are American so don't have her $$$ profile. She ticks a lot of diversity boxes, although would be better if she was a single parent and a lesbian. Authorities need to tread a fine line between setting an example and shooting themselves in the foot.

I expect we will see a public apology from her soon, maybe a donation to some sort of charity, and a slap on the wrist.

Bigger than Federer or Nadal? Federer is probably one of the biggest names in global sport in history.

That's like saying Freddy Adu is the biggest name in Football because Ronaldo and Messi aren't American. Federer and Nadal make 10x what Serena does, Serena isn't even in the top 100 earning sportspeople in the world in the last year (granted some of that is due to being up the duff), Nadal and Federer are right up there. Federer is #7.

Even Kei Nishikori makes more than Serena in one of her good years.

[Diggers]

Guess it depends what earnings list you look at. If you look up overall net worth then Serena is certainly on a par with Rafa and Novak (richer on the sites I looked at) with around 160 million dollars. Federer is way ahead. Nishikori is way back in around 25 million. She’s clearly a huge name and has made absolute shedloads, as has Sharapova who was the biggest tennis earner for a while. She is obviously an icon, we might well think she behaved badly but there is a phenomenal amount of support for her, even from the WTA.
Fantastic to see Supers rent a clone, Chef, make a ton. He’ll be pleased to know he can earn a living in the future by being a stunt double for the worlds most morose man!!

[super_realist]

I was talking about annual lists from Forbes and Williams is never above Nadal or Federer, or even Djokovic.

It's clearly nonsense to say that Williams is arguably the biggest name in tennis.

Nishikori earned $35million last year, mostly in endorsements, so I think he's worth a fair bit more than £25million, given that he's the biggest sports star in Japan.

[Diggers]

We don’t really know what they earn, it’s all guesswork, but she has definitely been right up there before as a top earner and all the available numbers confirm she is worth a fortune. If you asked someone to name a tennis player I suspect she’d be in the top 3 named, she is undoubtedly right up there as a huge name and is a massive tournament draw. Not saying any of that makes it right, but its true.

[super_realist]

I'm sure she is relatively up there, but the point is she's not the biggest name in tennis. It's pretty funny that Ray (I think it was) said that not being American made Federer and Nadal lesser names in the game. There's no one bigger.

Besides, if the umpire hadn't given her the penalty and code violation then we'd be talking about him showing favouritism towards her. He can't win, and Serena should have kept her cakehole shut and made a complaint in the proper manner as at the time there wasn't a legitimate complaint to be made. She was just being a brat as she regularly is.

I'm not sure Serena would be named as one of the top 3, not because she isn't excellent and one of the best tennis players of all time, but because people aren't that interested in womens' sports in general and it tends to get over-looked (rightly or wrongly)

[Diggers]

For what it’s worth she is 12th on the ESPN famous sports star list for this year, behind Federer and Nadal but not by much. She’s one of those people who have transcended their sport, not too many manage that.

[super_realist]

True, but I still don't think that "arguably" she's the biggest name in Tennis. I think the previous poster must have forgotten about Federer and Nadal, Federer especially is probably even a bigger name than Tiger Moobs was in his pomp, but perhaps only because Golf is less popular than tennis.

I put about as much stall in the ESPN most famous list as I do in the Smash Hits Poll Winners Party.

[Diggers]

Well, we don’t have any real way of judging these things, I’d say it’s as accurate as guessing Nishikoris endorsement earnings. Tennis is the one sport where Joe Public can reel off both make and female legends. Martina and Evert were as big as the male legends, Graf as recognisable as Sampras (maybe more so).
Anyway, re the sexism stance I think it’s more about a few poor decisions this year. The WTA were not happy about the catsuit ban, the appalling one was the French girl getting a warning for turning a t-shirt around when Novak sits there shirtless, that was a ludicrous call. And now this. Like I say, I’m reasonably ambivalent but she is a huge name and sexism in the sport seems like a bit of a hot potato. The amount of support from other women players might suggest more goes on than we are privy to. Still think she was out of order but can kind of see why the support is there.

[pedro]

Really difficult to compare male and female sport stars. But tennis is probably the only sport where women are almost as ‘famous’ as men.

You also see that reflected in prize money which, at least in the Majors, equal those of the men.

[NedB-H]

As I understand it, the incident with Cornet changing her shirt was misconstrued. She was given a warning for unnecessary delay because she was changing her shirt at the back of the baseline when play was ready to resume. If she’d done it in her chair - which is what the blokes do - she’d have been fine. Still a bit daft considering she just had it on back to front, but not sexist. Serena’s catsuit I'd have more sympathy for if anyone could give me a plausible explanation as to its supposed health benefits.

It’s all a bit sad because it seems people are going out of their way to look for sexism which I’m not at all convinced is there, and in tennis of all sports which is almost certainly the least sexist sport there is. There was a storm when a Premier League game had a woman linesman, yet tennis has happily interchanged the sexes of umpires for years, with barely any problems until now. That should be something to celebrate, if anything Serena will move things backwards not forwards.

[Diggers]

Hmm, that’s wasn’t my take on the Cornet issue and the US Open issued a full apology. Cornet to her credit wasn’t that fussed but did think the catsuit issue was appalling. Seems to me that everything isn’t as rosey as it seems. You basically have a load of blokes saying, “what are you whinging for, you’ve nearly got it as good as the men!” The actual women playing don’t seem to see it that way, I don’t think we can just assume they all have a victim complex.
If you look at the prize money across the board (article on BBC today) the women are still earning a lot less.
Like I say, don’t agree with the Serena rant but equally get a bit bored with sexism/racism being constant dismissed as not being there (not saying that’s what’s happening on here).

[pedro]

Yes but only cry wolf when it’s there.

[kwinigolfer]

Surely the Williams nonsense is blown out of all proportion because it's in the US and is such a huge deal for American TV (whose contracts are so lucrative and she is by far the most popular tennis player here) and print media. And that's why most of her matches were played in the relative cool of the evening, in "prime time" instead of sweltering in the midday sun as her rivals (incl Venus) had to.

Glad the ITF has come out in support of Ramos, though the WTA clearly didn't.

[kwinigolfer]

Third European Club Competition:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45483586

Hope they consulted super_ before introducing this . . . . . . . .

[wiretapper]

Third European Club Competition:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45483586

Hope they consulted super_ before introducing this . . . . . . . .

I reckon this will be a second tier Champions League for non Spanish - English - German - Italian - French and maybe Portuguese teams plus a couple other plucky qualifiers (cannon fodder).

As a supporter of a team which sometimes gets into the Champions League but cannot compete when we get there I think this may be a good idea

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