Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Kwini

I reckon Harry has scored a double eagle.

She's a weird looking bird, more a bogey I'd say.

Kwini, you have very high standards. I seem to remember you thought Lexi was a bit of a minger.

[McLaren]

don’t agree with the Serena rant but equally get a bit bored with sexism/racism being constant dismissed as not being there (not saying that’s what’s happening on here).

Spot on other than I would say that is what is happening on here.  A lot of the posters on here seem almost afraid of what will happen if racism or sexism is acknowledged.  It doesn't take a shrink to work out that Serena's outburst wasn't just about a some decisions in one match.  The pressure of being in a US open might have meant she didn't present her argument as eloquently as possible but the merits of her points stand.


I would like some of those on here scared of acknowledging sexism or racism what they think would happen if it were called out more often?  Would it be a problem if sexism/racism was called out a little more often than it actually happens?



Lets forget about her shouting at the empire and think about the levels of sexism and racism going about where even someone as "privileged" as Serena is driven to breaking point?



And somewhere someone mentioned hoping the ITF would stand up for the umpire, stand up for what?  If he can't take a bit of abuse during a tennis match I suggest he takes his snowflake tendencies somewhere else.

[superflyweight]

Serena Williams is very good at tennis, but she’s also an absolutely horrendous example of sportspeople being good role models. Disgraceful behaviour today.

Apparently there’s a fine line between guerilla tactics and monkey business.

Is this kind of racist f**kwittery now acceptable on this forum?

[McLaren]

Superflyweight

You would hope not but given one of the mods (Navy) has posted on the thread, either it is acceptable or he hasn't noticed it.

[superflyweight]

Maybe it's being left there to shame the poster?

[pedro]

Superfly, don’t know if you follow this forum regularly. But my comment was a satirical reference (and play on words) to an earlier discussion on this board about a TV commentator being fired for comments about Serena.

[superflyweight]

I only follow the thread intermittently, but if that's true then fair enough and I retract my criticism.

[McLaren]

superfly, don't buy pedro's Love sacks.  At the time most of this board saw no issue with the commentators comparison of Serena with a gorilla.

[kwinigolfer]

Mac,
I referred to the ITF, if that's what you're snarking at.
But I didn't say I hoped they'd stick up for him; I was glad that they had.

Look at Ramos's record of disciplining male pros and you'll see that he was just being consistent with what he always does.

Nothing sexist or racist in any of this. Loads of umpiring inconsistencies from one ump to the next, but that's a separate issue.

[McLaren]

Kwini

The point is that Ramos could have acted entirely consistently and by the rules but it is besides the point.  What we saw was someone reaching her breaking point in having to deal with sexism and racism.  Even if this particular incident on court wasn't the worst of either can we not take a more charitable view towards Serena and understand what she has had to go through her whole life?

Forget Ramos, he will get over it, and think about the sorts of situations Serena has faced that white or male counterparts have not?  As I said in my post I do not understand why some people are so worried about exposing sexism and racism and how it makes people feel.  Why are more people not offering sympathy and support for Serena and instead getting hung up on the application of tennis rules.

If someone has faced many genuine cases of racism or sexism and one day they snap over an incident that might ultimately turn out to not be an act of discrimination (in this case the WTA, other players and woman think it was) would that erase the lifetimes worth of genuine cases?

[NedB-H]

Forget Ramos, he will get over it, and think about the sorts of situations Serena has faced that white or male counterparts have not?  As I said in my post I do not understand why some people are so worried about exposing sexism and racism and how it makes people feel.  Why are more people not offering sympathy and support for Serena and instead getting hung up on the application of tennis rules.

I expect better than this from you Mac. Surely with your political tendencies and your love of sport, you can’t have failed to notice the big push for acknowledgement of mental health issues recently? And in particular, for men’s mental health, as many men feel pressured into bottling it up by a masculine environment, and the mental health of those in top level sport who often feel similar pressure.
You must also be aware of the struggles that amateur sports have been facing in finding willing officials due to the abuse they receive. The referee’s association have got the FA to actively campaign over this after countless cases of volunteer referees facing physical and verbal abuse. The Cricket Umpires and Scorers Association have highlighted similar issues.

Of course we can acknowledge that Serena has probably encountered sexism and racism in her career many times (although I notice you don’t offer examples). That explains why she has blown her top on incorrectly identifying sexism and racism here, I agree. But an explanation doesn’t excuse or justify behaviour, it just explains it. Aggressive abuse of officials is still completely unacceptable, and Serena has previous for this too.

You suggest Ramos would be a “snowflake” for not just putting up with it, but actually he remained calm throughout and has kept a dignified silence since. We can only guess his feelings after having his integrity questioned and his career threatened in a public arena. If anything it was Serena who played a “snowflake” card by bursting in to tears at the end of her tirade; Ramos would have been more than justified in crying himself but he kept himself together, I guess because he’s a man and people like you don’t expect men to show their feelings like that.

[kwinigolfer]

Mac,
Some people, probably in all walks of life but particularly in sport and entertainment, seem to think they are bigger, in this case, than the game. And blow a gasket when they're pulled up on their bad behaviour, in this case abusive.

Apparently Ramos has umped Serena at least four other times, apparently without theft or lying.

Haven't seen you complain about violations that Ramos has called on Murray, Djokovich, Venus, Kyrgios, Nadal etc . . . . . . Turning yourself into a pretzel trying to defend the indefensible is a waste of time.

[raycastleunited]

I was talking about annual lists from Forbes and Williams is never above Nadal or Federer, or even Djokovic.

It's clearly nonsense to say that Williams is arguably the biggest name in tennis.

Nishikori earned $35million last year, mostly in endorsements, so I think he's worth a fair bit more than £25million, given that he's the biggest sports star in Japan.

Williams is a global superstar who transcends her sport in a way that very few do - that's not nonsense. Federer has done, but will he continue to do so? Nadal to some extent has transcended his sport too. Those 3 are the biggest names in tennis, rank Williams how you want out of the 3 but she's on a different level from Nishikori etc.

Tennis is global but the US market is key. I expect if you asked Americans to name a tennis player, Williams would be the top answer.

Anyway, my point wasn't about who is bigger out of Williams and Federer, but about how the tennis authorities will not want to punish / alienate a prized asset.

[raycastleunited]

Kwini

The point is that Ramos could have acted entirely consistently and by the rules but it is besides the point.  What we saw was someone reaching her breaking point in having to deal with sexism and racism.  Even if this particular incident on court wasn't the worst of either can we not take a more charitable view towards Serena and understand what she has had to go through her whole life?

Forget Ramos, he will get over it, and think about the sorts of situations Serena has faced that white or male counterparts have not?  As I said in my post I do not understand why some people are so worried about exposing sexism and racism and how it makes people feel.  Why are more people not offering sympathy and support for Serena and instead getting hung up on the application of tennis rules.

If someone has faced many genuine cases of racism or sexism and one day they snap over an incident that might ultimately turn out to not be an act of discrimination (in this case the WTA, other players and woman think it was) would that erase the lifetimes worth of genuine cases?

Oh dear. This is a very disappointing point of view. You are supporting Serena's bullying of the umpire. She is in a position of power and has sought to abuse that by using her influence to discredit someone just trying to do their job.

If Serena Williams parks on double yellow lines and receives a parking ticket, is it ok for her to beat up the traffic warden because she has suffered racist and sexist abuse from different people in the past?

[kwinigolfer]

Mac,
Here's a rational article from a respected journalist. It kind of lays out the ITF position and offers some Ramos perspective:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/josh-peter/2018/09/10/carlos-ramos-followed-rules-serena-williams-penalty-us-open/1263930002/


rays meter maid analogy is very apropos . . . . . . . !

[pedro]

Mac, when should we NOT feel sorry for black people or women? I mean Serena is (one of) the biggest names in tennis, has 35 grand slam titles, earns gazillions of $, is idolised by millions. But because she, like probably 99.9% of blacks in predominantly white societies and 99.9% of women, have encountered racism/sexism at some point of time she is victimised for life? And whatever she ever does it must always be seen in context of being a victim? Wow, that’s quite a way to stigmatise over half the population.

[McLaren]

So touching to read how worried people are about Ramos.  #JusticeForRamos

[raycastleunited]

I'm waiting eagerly for Mac's next series of posts:
- Mugabe deserves sympathy and support after being victimised
- Pol pot was pushed to breaking point
- Hitler was misunderstood

[McLaren]

Ray

Not sure how making the point that Serena raised some valid points albeit in possibly a less than perfect manner equates to a defence of the people you mentioned above?

[Diggers]

One thing I will say, we don't really watch that much high level, big profile sport involving women. We do watch a hell of a lot that involves men. Now, I've literally lost count of the number of incidents that involve men effing and blinding at refs. It happens countless times every weekend in the premier league, in every league. Someone tonight, in a friendly, will probably call a ref a cnut. I also see plenty of male players in the umpires ear during tennis matches, Murray chunters away constantly.
If so many of us really are so perfect that we just don't see things in terms of gender or colour...why the massive fuss about this incident. Why the huge condemnation of Williams?

[raycastleunited]

Diggers

I think you have to look at this on a sport by sport basis. It's only really football where abuse / intimidation of officials is tolerated (and personally I think this should be clamped down fast).

In tennis (and most other sports) calling the umpire a liar and a thief is not acceptable. Williams had the opportunity after the match to back track and say that it was said in the heat of the moment and she regrets it etc - I think this would have diffused things and she may have got some sympathy - but she didn't.

[Diggers]

Sure, you can look at it sport by sport, because it suits the argument because we are largely only watching men play.
Again, clearly the women on tour think double standards are enforced. Why do we assume they are all wrong or bleating about nothing. There has to be some substance to it.

[navyblueshorts]

don’t agree with the Serena rant but equally get a bit bored with sexism/racism being constant dismissed as not being there (not saying that’s what’s happening on here).

Spot on other than I would say that is what is happening on here.  A lot of the posters on here seem almost afraid of what will happen if racism or sexism is acknowledged.  It doesn't take a shrink to work out that Serena's outburst wasn't just about a some decisions in one match.  The pressure of being in a US open might have meant she didn't present her argument as eloquently as possible but the merits of her points stand.


I would like some of those on here scared of acknowledging sexism or racism what they think would happen if it were called out more often?  Would it be a problem if sexism/racism was called out a little more often than it actually happens?



Lets forget about her shouting at the empire and think about the levels of sexism and racism going about where even someone as "privileged" as Serena is driven to breaking point?



And somewhere someone mentioned hoping the ITF would stand up for the umpire, stand up for what?  If he can't take a bit of abuse during a tennis match I suggest he takes his snowflake tendencies somewhere else.

Was waiting for the Mac post, and it doesn't disappoint.

[navyblueshorts]

Serena Williams is very good at tennis, but she’s also an absolutely horrendous example of sportspeople being good role models. Disgraceful behaviour today.

Apparently there’s a fine line between guerilla tactics and monkey business.

Is this kind of racist f**kwittery now acceptable on this forum?  

Superflyweight

You would hope not but given one of the mods (Navy) has posted on the thread, either it is acceptable or he hasn't noticed it.

No one has/had complained about it FFS. Grow the **** up. Also, I have too many other things to worry about than this sort of childish scheiss. You know, real things...

[McLaren]

Ray

I think most people would agree that calling the umpire a thief is pretty poor form but should it really be the thing we concentrate on.  It seems a pretty statement to say that possibly Serena could have maybe gone about this in a slightly better way.  But given the points she raised should't we let the tennis rules makers worry about her conduct on the court and everyone else can ponder what to do about racism and sexism in tennis and the wider world?  And given the response from the WTA it would seem they and their players are at least a bit concerned that they are not being treated fairly.

It just seems obvious that there are two strands to this incident. The first being Serena's on court behavior and the second being what treatment she has been subjected to over her lifetime that brought her to the point of raising the issues she did?

And why are people so concerned about the first when the second seems a lot more important?

[pedro]

As I said I think it’s ok to be upset, angry, smashing a racket or make a scene. John McEnroe made a legend out of himself doing it. But the main point is when you try to victimise and pity yourself. That’s just pathetic. Doesn’t serve the greater cause (which undoubtedly is an issue), on the contrary. It just makes me think of Ali G: “Is it because I is black?”

[pedro]

I'm waiting eagerly for Mac's next series of posts:
- Mugabe deserves sympathy and support after being victimised
- Pol pot was pushed to breaking point
- Hitler was misunderstood

That’s an easy one, ray:
- It was the British
- It was the French
- It was the Jews

[Diggers]

Wonder if Jimmy Anderson wished he’d announced his retirement before this test, what a way for 2 legends of the English game to bow out that would have been. Jimmy currently world number one but with hard winter tours ahead you’d think at some point he’ll go to the well and the bucket comes up empty.

[wiretapper]

I think Jimmy wants another crack at the Aussies, especially after what happened in the winter.

[Diggers]

I think you are right, I just hope it doesn't become a bridge too far. I'd like him to end on a high.

[McLaren]

A few people have complained about super talking about religion but is there really anything worse than cricket chat?  

[raycastleunited]

ECB must be kicking themselves. Cook and Andersen hit milestones and generate front page news... on the last day of the season. All that interest / euphoria / momentum, and no more international cricket until winter.

[kwinigolfer]

A few people have complained about super talking about religion but is there really anything worse than cricket chat?  

Yes. Faux political correctness.

PS: Can't remember a time when England had so few options of a proven opener, let alone two of them. And a Number Three too, come to think of it. Unless Root takes root there, in which case no Number Four.

[McLaren]

A few people have complained about super talking about religion but is there really anything worse than cricket chat?   :vomit:

Yes. Faux political correctness.

I was expecting someone to reply with "golf chat".

[McLaren]

Yes it's the Guardian but I wonder if this article might help explain how Serena reached the point of yelling at a rules official about sexism due to life experiences most woman will have to put up with.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/sep/11/serena-williams-angry-soraya-chemaly-women-should-unleash-rage

[beninho]

ECB must be kicking themselves. Cook and Andersen hit milestones and generate front page news... on the last day of the season. All that interest / euphoria / momentum, and no more international cricket until winter.

Tour to Sri Lanka starts in about 2 weeks!

[beninho]

A few people have complained about super talking about religion but is there really anything worse than cricket chat?  

Yes. Faux political correctness.

PS: Can't remember a time when England had so few options of a proven opener, let alone two of them. And a Number Three too, come to think of it. Unless Root takes root there, in which case no Number Four.

We've just stuffed the number 1 ranked team in the world, things aren't all that bad. Root is a world class number 4, he should stay at 4. Ali stays at 3 for the winter tours to Lanka and Windies. I think Jennings will stay ( lack of options and a century on slow pitches in India a few years back) I'm guessing Burns of Surrey will be the other one, though I have no knowledge about him apart from he seems to score runs. Another will be needed for back up though, I heard denly mentioned on Tv, though that can only be short term option.

Other then that the team picks itself.

[kwinigolfer]

But would we stuff India in India? And how many of our batsmen would stand up to Aussie quicks in Aussie conditions? And when does Foakes (about whom I know next to Foakes all) get a chance?
Number Four looks good, 4 or 5 allrounders (many of whom are pretty much sh1t or bust) and still decent fast bowling. But batting looks really week.

[NedB-H]

Foakes will struggle to get a chance because, through no fault of his own, he does exactly what Bairstow and Buttler already do.

England have got enough good players to get over the line more often than not when they’re at home, but the reason they’re not better is they keep sticking their pegs into the wrong holes. Bringing Buttler back in at 7 has worked in the sense that he’s scored runs, but it’s forced Bairstow up to 5 where he’s struggled. Anyone halfway sensible can look at Bairstow’s technique and see that it’s good for quick runs but not solid enough defensively for the top 5. And now having debuted three other spinners in the last 12 months we’ll be going back to Asia with Ali and Rashid as the main two, just like two winters ago where India scored piles of runs against them.

I don’t buy the line that there’s no openers out there either. With 18 counties who will play two openers at least there has to be a few. Burns is the current fashionable name, I also like Davies at Lancashire, Mitchell at Worcester is older but could be useful short term, Browne at Essex and Gubbins at Middlesex have decent records, you could even go left field and pick a county stalwart who’s seen it all like Godleman at Derby or Nash at Notts. The problem is that the current selection tactic is giving players “one game too many not one too few”, which is fine except that by the time they’re eventually dropped the next guy to be tried is under unnecessary pressure having been talked about for weeks.

[Diggers]

Butler needs to bat higher, he is clearly quality, think it's jest taken him a while to put all the pieces together. Although I don't really agree about Bairstow being a 7 (made an awful of big scores at county and test level) I'd probably go Butler 5, Stokes 6 and Bairstow 7 right now (because we can). Alli does not look like a 3, he for me is far less a 3 than Bairstow is a 5 if that makes sense. You could argue we bat so deep it might not really matter, even Broad has found a bit of form with the bat.
Although we have bowled well this summer (really was not a stuffing though, I do think 4 - 1 flattered us in what was a fantastic series) I think when we are away that's the issue, will Stokes ever be a fit bowler, can't see it myself. Does Alli see himself a front line spinner, jury is still out.

[NedB-H]

I can’t argue with that over Ali. He bats 3 for Worcestershire, just as Bairstow bats 5 for Yorkshire, but they both look like 6s or 7s to me. Ali is the biggest enigma they have I think, he’s played over 50 tests now I think, scored lots of runs and taken lots of wickets, but no one really seems to know what he’s there for. They’ve stumbled on a side these last two tests where he can play as the second spinner, but that surely can’t be sustainable outside of Asia.

I was at the Nottingham Test this year on day 4 when Buttler and Stokes staged their rearguard. To be honest Stokes looked the much more technically sound of the two of them. If his fitness for bowling is winding down, I wonder if long term he could bat 5 and become a part time sixth bowler.

[super_realist]

Yes it's the Guardian but I wonder if this article might help explain how Serena reached the point of yelling at a rules official about sexism due to life experiences most woman will have to put up with.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/sep/11/serena-williams-angry-soraya-chemaly-women-should-unleash-rage

No Mac, not unless you already subscribe to the pitiful agenda the Graudian occupies.

Serena didn't have the statistics to hand to show whether or not this particular umpire had a history of sexism. It's become clear he does not and is on record as being a pretty firm umpire with many a code violation to both sexes. The Umpire has nothing to do with how women are treated in general, he's there to officiate a match. He was entirely justified in his actions on all three points.

IF tennis has a sexism problem, then the ghastly Serena should raise it with her players representative, not go on a shrieking, entitled millennial type rant.  The umpire has zero reason to consider how Serena has been treated at any point prior to that match. He wouldn't have had to even consider handing anything out had Williams behaved like an adult in the first place and her coach had played the rules.

Serena is a disgrace using that particular point in time and occasion to air her immaturity and the childish victim card. There's not a chance she would have indulged in such histrionics had she won the first set. She's just a bad loser and a terrible human being, not just the way that she acted, but ruining the biggest day in Osaka's life too. No humility or class whatsoever.

[Diggers]

I can’t argue with that over Ali. He bats 3 for Worcestershire, just as Bairstow bats 5 for Yorkshire, but they both look like 6s or 7s to me. Ali is the biggest enigma they have I think, he’s played over 50 tests now I think, scored lots of runs and taken lots of wickets, but no one really seems to know what he’s there for. They’ve stumbled on a side these last two tests where he can play as the second spinner, but that surely can’t be sustainable outside of Asia.

I was at the Nottingham Test this year on day 4 when Buttler and Stokes staged their rearguard. To be honest Stokes looked the much more technically sound of the two of them. If his fitness for bowling is winding down, I wonder if long term he could bat 5 and become a part time sixth bowler.

Ned, I’ve so much time for Ali. Clearly very well liked in the side, never moans, does what’s asked of him. Beautiful batsmen in full flow and made some key knocks. Actually a great final innings bowler most of the time. If he was maybe just 5% a better bowler (which I hope he could be) he’d be one heck of a player coming it at 7, 8 seems a waste, but if he doesn’t bat at 3 with Curran in the side he could even bat 9!

[NedB-H]

That probably sounded harsher than I meant it to on Ali. He’s always done what has been asked if him and has a very good record for someone who’s role has changed so much. But they need to decide if they want him as a top order batsman and bonus bowler, as the main spinner or as the second spinner. If it’s second spinner you can’t justify him playing every game with the seamers we have on home pitches.

[Diggers]

Didn’t he have a massive summer last year, this is a total guess but Id think his home bowling average is pretty useful over the years past few years (better than Broad?). It’s more away I worry, but then I do about the seamers. They do love to play a spinner, if nothing else speeds up the over rate!
I know where you’re coming from though, he’s clearly (for me) our best spinner and should be played as such.

[beninho]

I love Mo. Last year against the saffers he was quality, and he's previously been very good against india in england. We forget he got injured just before the ashes and it impacted his bowling, he then struggled. But a lot of spinners struggle in Australia, evem murali I believe (may be wrong). Cricket is so jone side dominated at present its hard to ve overly critical with away performances.

He can bat 3, and it gives the luxury of being able to have a very good offie played with a leggie in rashid. There may be others on tge county circuit to bat 3, but we've never really replaced trott, so mo is worth a go in the short term at least. To much to have a brand new opener and no3.

Think the order from 3-7 works. With curren, rashid, broad and jimmy. Scope to change it depending on conditions, you could replace rash with a batter and drop mo down, or bring in woakes if needed.

Sri lanka will ve tough, but mo, rash and root should do the spin work. Windies is slow and low now aswell, then its tge ashes again, and we always win tgat at home now!

[kwinigolfer]

Yes it's the Guardian but I wonder if this article might help explain how Serena reached the point of yelling at a rules official about sexism due to life experiences most woman will have to put up with.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/sep/11/serena-williams-angry-soraya-chemaly-women-should-unleash-rage

Mac,
This starts off with an inaccurate preconception, saying: "Of course she'd be angry, but she wasn't explosive." Then she was broken back, possibly saw the writing on the wall, and demolished her racket, got penalised again, and went ballistic directing torrents of bile at the Ump.
Ramos has done plenty of players, male & female, for coaching, but perhaps could have given her a warning. But he didn't, went by the book, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Nothing racist, nothing sexist, only her entitled self to blame.

[Diggers]

Speaking of English spinners, Monty was on Celebrity Masterchef last week. Nice enough guy but so flaky, you could see how he’d drive everyone nuts. Entertain though.

[raycastleunited]

Ali just isn't quite good enough to bat in the top 5. (In the same way his bowling just isn't quite good enough to be a front line spinner - I agree with Boycott's view that he gets wickets because batsmen think he's rubbish and go after him) Maybe with some intensive coaching he could do a job at 3 as an anchor type player (like Trott). Would be very tough as his natural instinct is to attack and he is a great no7 with his fluid stroke play.

Curran is great at 7 as well. No 8 is fine for him now at the start of his career but he has the technique and temperament to go in at 7 or even 6 long term.

Woakes is a much improved batsman too. A very strong 8, good enough to bat at 7.

Despite his reputation as a slogger, Stokes is technically pretty good. The challenge is he is not consistent enough to bat top 5. 6 is perfect for him.

Buttler is wasted at 7. I can see why he is batting there given his past record but he has really grown in maturity and could play at 5.

I think Bairstow has struggled at 5 because the top order above him keeps collapsing and he is coming in too early. He needs more protection - if he is going to keep wicket as well maybe he is better swapping with Buttler and coming in at 7. The alternative is for him to reprise his ODI role and open... although he might get found out at test level.

I know they are ODI sloggers, but I wouldn't discount Hales and Roy from the test team either, as they have proven they can do it under pressure at international level. Hameed is the best looking opener we have now, just a shame his form has been dreadful this year. I also think Gary Ballance should get a look in at 3, he's had his chances and not succeeded, but looked better than Vince, Malan, Jennings, Stoneman etc.

This would be an interesting XI:

Roy
Bairstow
Ali
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Curran
Woakes
Rashid
Broad
Anderson

[Diggers]

I think that side could be very little for 3 very quickly, Ray. Then again whatever we put out we struggle to get to 400, but on this summers wickets nobody would make 400. I do think Roy is worth a go, he’s a dasher but a very good one.
Controversially, I’m not at all sure Curran will be around for the long term. Hope I’m wrong but just have a feeling he (far more than Ali) isn’t good enough with the bat or the ball for a big test career. White ball careeer could be fantastic though.

[Be_the_ball]

So apparently the two Russians had to turn back on their first trip to Salisbury as it was TOO COLD! They're from bleeding Russia ffs, Salisbury in March can't be as cold as Russia I would have thought !?!?

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