England Summer Tour - Part 2

by Geordie Fri 22 Jun 2018, 11:19 am

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't get the point in the Cipriani experiment...and I don't get why Robson was taken.

Eddie Jones just baffles me. What is actually going on in his head. Whats his plans with people like this..and Mark Wilson?? etc. Why does he manage people like this.

Pick them for tours then not even look at them again until another meaningless tour needs some bodies to fill the squad.

At least Cipriani is getting a start. I was wondering if Eddie only took him on tour to stop him signing a big money contract overseas. It does seem strange that Robson has not had even a sniff, especially with Danny-boy starting this test. Supposedly the weather is meant to be wet and windy tomorrow so maybe Jones thinks the Wasp's game is not tight enough?

Wilson has at least added marginally to his tally of caps - but Jones does seem to view him as an inferior alternative to Robshaw.

I agree that's how he probably does see him, and probably a large majority of England fans aswell. However in that case why bother taking him. Why not take the young potential in both Curry's to see if they can eclipse Robshaw. Why has Simmonds not even had a minute on the pitch.
Why is Mercer not getting games.
Why take Ben Earl??

His whole management just confuses me a lot.

by mid_gen Fri 22 Jun 2018, 12:42 pm

I don't know what is so confusing.

Coach takes a squad of players for the tour. There are more players in the squad than can be involved in each game. Coach selects the players that most impress/suit for each match. Players that don't impress coach, don't get picked...and on top of that, EJ liks to involve players in the England setup even if they aren't getting game time (see M Smith etc).

There's nothing mystifying about it, other than his opinion on certain players differs from yours.

by Geordie Fri 22 Jun 2018, 1:06 pm

We'll agree to disagree mid_gen

by robbo277 Fri 22 Jun 2018, 1:07 pm

mid_gen wrote:I don't know what is so confusing.

Coach takes a squad of players for the tour. There are more players in the squad than can be involved in each game. Coach selects the players that most impress/suit for each match. Players that don't impress coach, don't get picked...and on top of that, EJ liks to involve players in the England setup even if they aren't getting game time (see M Smith etc).

There's nothing mystifying about it, other than his opinion on certain players differs from yours.

I agree. For instance scrumhalves. He took 3, and can only play 2 in each squad. He's under no obligation to give everyone a go, he's got two new guys in there and if he likes Spencer more than Robson then Spencer will get the shots. If he picks (what he sees as) an inferior 9, he's going to have a lot more trouble judging the backs outside him.

I am baffled by some of his decisions, Hughes over Simmonds being one of the biggest ones. I think he should have had Simmonds on the bench for the first two tests, but I don't think he should play Simmonds just because he toured. If he was play Simmonds I wouldn't be calling for Hughes to get a go because otherwise "what's the point of taking him".

by Guest Fri 22 Jun 2018, 1:08 pm

It’s a shame England have fallen from grace and now ranked 6th. When England were 2nd Eddie was really entertaining and gave a lot of smarmy arrogant interviews that made me smile. The way he tries to talk himself out of difficult situations these days is sad and doesn’t really make me smile.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Jun 2018, 4:59 pm

Lol. Good one ebop.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 22 Jun 2018, 5:16 pm

All coaches have to take risks when putting a team together. The simple act of selecting one player over another is risky, because you might be wrong. Do you choose two players for a squad because they offer different strengths, or do you want them to have similar playing styles, so the shape of the team doesn't change when you swap one for the other?

I always assume there's some logic at work, even when I can't see it. It used to frustrate me that Lancaster never had a proper plan for a back-up captain to Robshaw, or an alternative goal kicker to Farrell. Perhaps other issues had priority, and never gave him the chance to address them. Maybe he didn't consider them to be problems.

The most annoying aspect of this tour has been the missed opportunity to rest players. Many of those left behind seemed to be on the verge of being dropped, with their potential replacements being given a run instead. If at least three from Mako V, George, Robshaw, Itoje, Billy V and Daly had been rested, then I'd feel happier for the future. Even if they are physically up to the task, then, mentally, there must be some strain. Once next season starts, there is virtually no break until the World Cup. This summer was the last chance to give key players a break, whether they seemed to need it or not.

Will it make a difference? Who knows. I wanted lots of player rested for the 2016 tour of Australia, because I thought they had been beasted for too long. We then got a clean sweep, and maybe that was more important at the time.

I'm also disappointed that Robson hasn't seen action. If, however, Jones rates Spencer the better option, then he ought to play him until he decides otherwise.

by robbo277 Fri 22 Jun 2018, 5:50 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:All coaches have to take risks when putting a team together. The simple act of selecting one player over another is risky, because you might be wrong. Do you choose two players for a squad because they offer different strengths, or do you want them to have similar playing styles, so the shape of the team doesn't change when you swap one for the other?

I always assume there's some logic at work, even when I can't see it. It used to frustrate me that Lancaster never had a proper plan for a back-up captain to Robshaw, or an alternative goal kicker to Farrell. Perhaps other issues had priority, and never gave him the chance to address them. Maybe he didn't consider them to be problems.

The most annoying aspect of this tour has been the missed opportunity to rest players. Many of those left behind seemed to be on the verge of being dropped, with their potential replacements being given a run instead. If at least three from Mako V, George, Robshaw, Itoje, Billy V and Daly had been rested, then I'd feel happier for the future. Even if they are physically up to the task, then, mentally, there must be some strain. Once next season starts, there is virtually no break until the World Cup. This summer was the last chance to give key players a break, whether they seemed to need it or not.

Will it make a difference? Who knows. I wanted lots of player rested for the 2016 tour of Australia, because I thought they had been beasted for too long. We then got a clean sweep, and maybe that was more important at the time.

I'm also disappointed that Robson hasn't seen action. If, however, Jones rates Spencer the better option, then he ought to play him until he decides otherwise.

They'll get a long break before the World Cup. They'll finish the season at the end of May and then there's no summer tour. They'll convene again for a training camp probably in mid-July and then train before some warm-ups in August/September. I don't think rest before a World Cup is as big an issue as is being made.

Eddie wanted to try out a few options, but he wanted a strong team out there. It's all well and good saying he should have rested players, but if we'd taken a B squad and lost 3-0 he would have probably got some stick anyway.

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 1:27 am

Rugby Fan wrote:The most annoying aspect of this tour has been the missed opportunity to rest players. Many of those left behind seemed to be on the verge of being dropped, with their potential replacements being given a run instead. If at least three from Mako V, George, Robshaw, Itoje, Billy V and Daly had been rested, then I'd feel happier for the future. Even if they are physically up to the task, then, mentally, there must be some strain. Once next season starts, there is virtually no break until the World Cup. This summer was the last chance to give key players a break, whether they seemed to need it or not.

Will it make a difference? Who knows. I wanted lots of player rested for the 2016 tour of Australia, because I thought they had been beasted for too long. We then got a clean sweep, and maybe that was more important at the time.

Agree 101%. Some of the players left in England are already hurt or seemed to be losing it. As I said before, I think this looks like a shot team at the moment. Nothing that 3 months in the Bahamas couldn't fix.

In hindsight, I think the Australia tour was misleading. I don't think we played all that well. I think Australia were bottoming out and simply out-mispeformed us (if that is a word).

by lostinwales Sat 23 Jun 2018, 12:36 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:The most annoying aspect of this tour has been the missed opportunity to rest players. Many of those left behind seemed to be on the verge of being dropped, with their potential replacements being given a run instead. If at least three from Mako V, George, Robshaw, Itoje, Billy V and Daly had been rested, then I'd feel happier for the future. Even if they are physically up to the task, then, mentally, there must be some strain. Once next season starts, there is virtually no break until the World Cup. This summer was the last chance to give key players a break, whether they seemed to need it or not.

Will it make a difference? Who knows. I wanted lots of player rested for the 2016 tour of Australia, because I thought they had been beasted for too long. We then got a clean sweep, and maybe that was more important at the time.
Agree 101%. Some of the players left in England are already hurt or seemed to be losing it. As I said before, I think this looks like a shot team at the moment. Nothing that 3 months in the Bahamas couldn't fix.

In hindsight, I think the Australia tour was misleading. I don't think we played all that well. I think Australia were bottoming out and simply out-mispeformed us (if that is a word).

There is a bit of that. Australia had a lot of structural problems at the time but had and still have some wonderful players. What was exciting about the way England performed was that we were adaptable and patient. We were (and are now) very good at scoring tries, but defense, control and discipline all seem to be major issues

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:28 pm

No one watching?
George just screwed two lineouts, Youngs not paying attention at a ruck whilst SA successfully counter ruck, taking a kick which should have gone to Cipriani, on and on.

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:28 pm

That SA scrum half is a real good player.

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:32 pm

Cripe, England gain momentum then lose the ball in contact. Basic schoolboy stuff.

by **Rugby Fan** Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:34 pm

I'm watching through my fingers.

by BamBam Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:37 pm

Hughes getting sent backwards rather quickly by the SA 9 was amusing

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:41 pm

Tom Curry is playing very well. He is just missing something at the moment, but he looks to be really developing into a terrific player.

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:43 pm

Why is it that Youngs seems to be playing in quicksand?

by alfie Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:49 pm

Bit of a contrast to the first two matches : won't be a try-fest in these conditions. Which ought to suit England.

And once again they are away to the early lead ...if by rather different methods.

Not a lot in it at half time if SA land this penalty : which they do. 6-3

by **LondonTiger** Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:55 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Why is it that Youngs seems to be playing in quicksand?

Not noticed that, though do feel like Hughes and Brown look like they are running through deep mud.

I know the conditions are not great, but we have had more ball than in first two tests yet look very disjointed in attack.

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:58 pm

First of all, I don't think that last pen by SA should have been awarded. There was a penalty, SA kicked a Garryowen and regained possession before knocking on. I don't think that should have been awarded.

George has messed up at least 4 lineouts two of which we were lucky to retain possession. Weird.

And does it seem Youngs does not trust Cipriani, trying to run the game through himself?

However, in the big picture, it is clear England's strategy is to avoid scoring. In the last two matches, they screwed up and scored tries early, which turned up the heat on the Boks, and we know how that turned out. By avoiding scoring tries, they keep the Boks under control???????

by **Rugby Fan** Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:24 pm

Bit worried that pollard is coming on. Jantjes has been one of England's best players.

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:27 pm

Worried if George keeps throwing into the lineouts after he missed another one?

by alfie Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:34 pm

Farrell has his kicking boots on today.

Got a bit too ambitious trying for that drop goal though. Into the last 15 minutes and still in front so I dare to hope...can they refrain from conceding silly penalties now ?

by alfie Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:39 pm

Lovely kick from Cipriani ...and May with terrific pace has surely settled this game clap

Farrell doesn't miss either and it seems the losing run is over at last thumbsup

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:42 pm

Cippy for PM

by Duty281 Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:46 pm

Good win for England. 2-1 South Africa is what I expected the series result to be, so no disappointments from me.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:47 pm

Great performance from the pack. Marler Launchbury and curry in particular. May for motm for me though. Simply great again.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Great performance from the pack. Marler Launchbury and curry in particular. May for motm for me though. Simply great again.

Back to sea level and the pack (lineout throwing excepted) were phenomenal. As well as those you mention, thought Williams made a big difference when he came on.

by **Rugby Fan** Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:51 pm

Think we always knew that Marler had the edge over Mako in the scrum. Today, though, Marler showed he could do a bit more. Seems to me that opposition scrums look strong across the board, so perhaps it's a good time for Joe to be making his case.

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:51 pm

It's a funny thing, but I remember thinking if May can learn to run straighter and play defense, he could be something. I think this is the best all around game he has played for England. Really, really strong.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:55 pm

doctor_grey wrote:It's a funny thing, but I remember thinking if May can learn to run straighter and play defense, he could be something. I think this is the best all around game he has played for England. Really, really strong.

Jonny May has to be our player of the series, yet reading articles in the last week Barnes, Dayglo, Greenwood all reckon Watson and Nowell should be straight back into the team come the Autumn.

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:56 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Great performance from the pack. Marler Launchbury and curry in particular. May for motm for me though. Simply great again.

Back to sea level and the pack (lineout throwing excepted) were phenomenal. As well as those you mention, thought Williams made a big difference when he came on.

England really started dominating the scrums when Williams came on. Great point.

by nathan Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:57 pm

Think may has had a great tour in a pretty dreadful overall one for England. Wouldn't say his defence is weak in anyway and asking him to run straight (most likely into the defense) takes away from his game. Think his distribution skills have improved this year.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 23 Jun 2018, 5:58 pm

May Watson and Daly surely. Just a toss up who hoes to left wing.

To be fair to those criticising jones and tactics the pack has shown again that they can boss games so there needs to be balance to wanting to play loser and knowing when to grind

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 6:00 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:It's a funny thing, but I remember thinking if May can learn to run straighter and play defense, he could be something. I think this is the best all around game he has played for England. Really, really strong.

Jonny May has to be our player of the series, yet reading articles in the last week Barnes, Dayglo, Greenwood all reckon Watson and Nowell should be straight back into the team come the Autumn.

It seems one of the three is always hurt, so it shouldn't matter. But on the performance from this tour, May has to be the top winger.

by No9 Sat 23 Jun 2018, 6:05 pm

Well done England, brilliant win to paper over the cracks and ensure Uncle Eddie keeps his job.

Love Eddie saying this team has set a record by getting the first England win at Newlands Laugh

Its like saying England has an unbeaten game run, since June 22nd 2018 Yahoo

by englishborn Sat 23 Jun 2018, 6:07 pm

Better performance from England, the silly silly penalties cut out and it was SA turn to struggle on the penalty count.

There still is a disturbing lack of penetration by the England pack and midfield, which on a dry day would have been much more telling.

Youngs still does not look the player he can be, he was slow not even attempting to snipe round the sides and just watched ball get turned over when he was the only one who could have attempted to get the ball out. Really is time for others to be given a go as scrum half currently is very passive with either Care or Youngs

Slade has not done much in the centre, if we are going to continue with ford/cips and farrell then we having another creative player there is not helping the team as they are not crashing any ball.

The pack played much better and Robshaw once again showed why he is very rarely a bad pick. Launchberry is looking like his former self and causing problems. If Mako is not going to gain you ground (as he has not for the last few tests) then Joe Marler has to be used to gain a much more stable scrum, and amazingly currently less of a penalty machine. Jamie George is playing ok but with Hartley comes some leadership and Jamie from this tour has offered little that Hartley cannot.
The tour has given Tom Curry a very good taste of test rugby and he has not disappointed, got some useful turnovers and hopefully stopped the idiotic desire to put a second row at 6 (Ben has gone well in the U20 as well). All in all the pack was better but still not giving much forward ball the backs can take advantage of, that will really need to change.

Cips has proven he is good enough and deserves to be picked, Ford needs to learn how to cope when the forwards are not giving the platform he wants, until then Cips offers more but I do wish his defence was a bit better for the international stage.

Brown is still the best full back we have, Elliot is a great player but needs to either be put on the wing (or centre) or spend a lot more time at club level at full back. It is a shame Brown no longer has the speed as he really is a safe pair of hands at the back. May has had a very good tour and been one of the few England players to shine in all 3 tests.

As we all knew England did not suddenly become a bad team, but the weaknesses we have are very obvious and when the rest of our game is struggling due to out of form players (or players out of position) or people losing their heads and giving penalties away our weaknesses become fatal.

South Africa looked a much better team with their exiles returned and for the game in general I hope it continues so.

by BamBam Sat 23 Jun 2018, 6:10 pm

No9 wrote:Well done England, brilliant win to paper over the cracks and ensure Uncle Eddie keeps his job.

Love Eddie saying this team has set a record by getting the first England win at Newlands

Its like saying England has an unbeaten game run, since June 22nd 2018

Whichever Welsh council estate has lost its resident moron, he's been located

by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 23 Jun 2018, 6:14 pm

I think that the "establishment" in the England hierarchy were put out that Ford had been dropped; Farrell's best mate and all that, Cips was not trusted to do anything. He has a lovely left boot but rather than try and let him gain some confidence, they chose Daly to take the kicks from the left, result in touch in goal. Not a game for Cips to show his skills and to be fair he understood that and played to the conditions.

Farrell had his kicking boots on today, thank goodness, but he did little else, couple of good kicks through, but seemed to be scared of passing the ball out wider, even when the space was there.

Best player for me was Marler, showed that he can truck the ball up and even pass. Scrum looked much more solid against the same pack that has dominated the last two games. Williams looked very good but against their second string, need more time to see what he is like against the number 1s.It would be interesting to see the scrum penalty count for this game against previous, we even out mauled them.

Hope for the future after all, lets see how they (SA) play over in England at sea level, they weren't too good today.

by doctor_grey Sat 23 Jun 2018, 6:15 pm

BamBam wrote:
No9 wrote:Well done England, brilliant win to paper over the cracks and ensure Uncle Eddie keeps his job.

Love Eddie saying this team has set a record by getting the first England win at Newlands

Its like saying England has an unbeaten game run, since June 22nd 2018

Whichever Welsh council estate has lost its resident moron, he's been located

There was a brief point in the match where Brits gave George a gentle pat on the back after another poor lineout throw that seemed to hark back to the true spirit of Rugby. Kind of a chin-up moment.

by kingelderfield Sat 23 Jun 2018, 6:32 pm

Oh Danny boy, the old lady she came calling......

Well played England. It was a shocking game of rugby but compelling all the same.

All in all, given the series was lost it was good to see the team/squad still show the pride and desire to step up and deliver.

Here's hoping one and all get all the rest they need and that young Danny goes well early doors down at Glaws, as I think he should be worth another opportunity to start.

GF is no mug and it will certainly have given him the hurry up to step it up.

And finally great series Jonny May. That is now the standard.

by eirebilly Sat 23 Jun 2018, 6:34 pm

Very good result for England. Not the best of games but it is a very important game for England to win, this will give them some much needed confidence back.

by lostinwales Sat 23 Jun 2018, 6:44 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
BamBam wrote:
No9 wrote:Well done England, brilliant win to paper over the cracks and ensure Uncle Eddie keeps his job.

Love Eddie saying this team has set a record by getting the first England win at Newlands

Its like saying England has an unbeaten game run, since June 22nd 2018

Whichever Welsh council estate has lost its resident moron, he's been located
There was a brief point in the match where Brits gave George a gentle pat on the back after another poor lineout throw that seemed to hark back to the true spirit of Rugby. Kind of a chin-up moment.

Long established team mates and all that.

I would not at all be surprised if Hartley does not come back, but that does leave us short on leadership and short in the front row.

by mikey_dragon Sat 23 Jun 2018, 6:56 pm

BamBam wrote:
No9 wrote:Well done England, brilliant win to paper over the cracks and ensure Uncle Eddie keeps his job.

Love Eddie saying this team has set a record by getting the first England win at Newlands

Its like saying England has an unbeaten game run, since June 22nd 2018

Whichever Welsh council estate has lost its resident moron, he's been located

Anyone know why BamBam seems to get away with his non-stop pathetic behaviour?

by Yoda Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:03 pm

Well when Wales achieve anything of note down south then fine have a go but when your record dreadful you should keep very quiet otherwise you look a little silly.

by Yoda Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:08 pm

Thank God for the Irish on this site at least we can complement each other without small minded wumming. Well done Ireland and England and Wales for victories, hopefully us NH will compete come the business end of 2019. No pressure on the Scots tonight. A full house of home nation semifinals would be great after the last disappointment.

by kingelderfield Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:25 pm

Hooker is a weakness for us. Of the current bunch I hope Cowan-Dickie progresses

by **RiscaGame** Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:29 pm

Didn’t really see that result coming, so well done England. I wonder if Jones will keep Cipriani as his ten in the AIs?

by No 7&1/2 Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:40 pm

Hard to say Risca. Rain makes it difficult to judge him fairly. Didn't really dictate that was more youngs, fairly given the conditions. Great kick for mays try but tbf could have easily gone out or be dabbed down by sa on another day. For me if you're going to give someone a chance you've got to give them a go. Did enough. I did see the result coming should be still kicking ourselves for not winning that first test.

by Geordie Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:44 pm

Didn't see the game so interesting to read the comments.

Good to hear Marler had a stormer...on his day he's far better than MAko (whos a "finisher")

Not sure why May gets so much criticism. He's class and always has been. He's an eccentric individual and that comes across in his play. He's Englands best winger.

Ill watch the highlights with interest to see how intense SA were with the series already won.

Curry at least has been blooded now.

SA and New Zealand in the AI's! They'll tell us a lot.

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