F1 Racing Point Belgium GP Thread

[GSC]

First topic message reminder :

Imagine it'll all be temp like most street circuits

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

I'm no conspiracy theorist but it is rather strange that just before qualifying in Singapore Vettel's battery pack 'failed'. Ferrari claimed it wasn't a major problem, but subsequently Vettel's pace has disappeared. Was that said battery pack illegal? Subsequently since that replacement battery pack was fitted, the #5 Ferrari looks all over the place. The stability isn't the same even as in Monza after Vettel's floor got damaged.

[Guest]

Wouldn’t surprise me. All the questions regarding Ferrari’s sudden surge in power, in comparison to Mercedes, was about their twin battery system, and how they were discharging the power. Suddenly being half a second off Mercedes, doesn’t strike me as solely down to setup, or a Mercedes upgrade.

[No name Bertie]

There was a general consensus that Ferrari had the fastest car and their upgrades seemed to be more effective than Mercedes upgrades.  

But since Singapore qualifying it seems that Mercedes may now have the fastest car.  I had Singapore down as a one off - because it was not a power circuit, was very difficult to overtake and much depended on getting the tires to work.  But it seems that maybe there has been a shift.  I was imagining that Mercedes must have upgraded something to cause the shift.  But reading Nathaniel's comment maybe it is something in Ferrari that has been downgraded.   Of course difficult to know whether this is going to continue to be the case during the race and in the races to come.

[dyrewolfe]

I love a good conspiracy theory and am quite prepared to believe Ferrari's momentary superiority was down to some experimental bit of kit, that subsequently proved unreliable or caused problems elsewhere in their power units.

Guess we'll never know, since the team aren't exactly forthcoming with any info, at the best of times and pretty much stonewall the media when things aren't going their way.

Either way, the season looks all over bar handing out the trophies. Will say an early congrats to Lewis on his 5th title and hope (probably in vain) for better things next season.

Think the most interesting thing about 2019 will be seeing how the new driver combos work out...particularly whether Leclerc can provide any genuine competition to Vettel.

[dyrewolfe]

Thoughts on Renault deliberately not taking part in Q2?

It's clever, they're guaranteed 11th and 12th due to grid penalties to others, free choice of tyres for the race instead of having to start on slightly worn ones, and only a couple of places back from where they'd be.

Smart from Renault...but to me its just another example of how idiotic the current technical regs are, with the equipment limitations and penalties imposed for exceeding them. Not only do they mess up the grid and prevent genuinely quick cars & drivers challenging each other at the start of races, but they're even making quali less of a spectacle, with teams actually benefitting more from qualifying outside the top 10, due to the equally stupid tyre regs.

So much wrong with F1 right now (and for the last decade or so, come to that).

[Guest]

Mercedes just messed Hamilton up

[Born Slippy]

How terrible was that decision by Mercedes?

[Born Slippy]

Hamilton is so damn good.

[Guest]

Get in there, Lewis.

[Guest]

Bottas didn’t have the pace, sensible decision.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

If Hamilton had superior speed he should've passed Bottas on merit. But just like Germany, Mercedes have to gift wrap wins for Hamilton. He talks about mental strength, he hasn't got any. Bottas should quit Mercedes

[Guest]

It’s how you win championships. Ferrari couldn’t make those decisions, hence why they have a 10 year championship drought.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Stop talking nonsense. You said Hamilton was faster why didn't he get passed ? Bottas has heavier tyre wear as well

[No name Bertie]

Given how easily Mercedes appeared to out-qualify the Ferraris, in the race they are much closer - except perhaps for Raikkonen. That is Vettel's Ferrari is a lot closer to the Mercedes. Hamilton now reporting issues with his car.

[Guest]

Mercedes just conserving to the end to make the one stop last. Hence, why Verstappen still looks so fast on worn tyres. Max on ultras at the end will be interesting

[No name Bertie]

I would have expected Bottas to have put more distance between himself as race leader and the Ferraris before the pit stops - and that was one of the reasons why Ferrari were able to get out ahead of Hamilton. I assume Hamilton's efforts at overtaking Vettel caused the issue with his tyre. However, Verstappen seemed to have no issues with regards his tyres overtaking car after car. So I assume that the Red Bull have a much better set up in terms of preserving the tyres - at least for this race. Of course this could also be due to Verstappens driving skills (or a combination of both).

[No name Bertie]

Just shows how risky driving close behind another car is for tyre wear, let alone overtaking. As soon as Verstappen pits the cars behind (e.g. Hamilton) are able to immediately go over a second per lap faster.

[Born Slippy]

Verstappen with no pace on the ultras. How bizarre.

Hamilton absolutely cruising in this race.

[No name Bertie]

Verstappen should have pitted a lot earlier if he wanted to challenge Raikkonen - so he has to settle for fifth - which is pretty good from where he started.

[Guest]

Bottas lacked the pace in the first stint, it cost him the race. He shouldn’t be complaining really, he knows the state of play in the WDC.

Hamilton wins the Russian GP, and extends lead to 50 points. Vettel made a mistake in locking up, and it cost him again.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Hamilton gifted the Russian GP, he wasn't apply to pass his wingman and needed an assist from daddy Toto.

[No name Bertie]

The BBC are headlining the race as a "team order victory" casting Bottas as victim and Hamilton as guilty party. Whether this is fair or not it just shows the power of the media, especially the BBC, to set the narrative - because for those that didn't watch the race - they will just take that BBC narrative and assume that is the take home message for this race.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Well the Beeb aren't lying. At no stage did Hamilton show he was capable of passing Bottas legitimately

[Born Slippy]

I really don’t get the issue around team orders, particularly at this part of the season. Ultimately, Hamilton probably could have got past Bottas but would have to take risks to do so. Makes no sense for Mercedes to take that chance. If Bottas wasn’t already 100 points behind his teammate he wouldn’t have to step aside. I’m sure he’ll get his chance when/if the title is won.

[Guest]

Nothing story, which will blow over. Mercedes in the sport to win championships, and to do that, you have to make these decisions. Ferrari did it with Schumacher and Alonso, RB did it with Vettel/Webber, and Merc have done it today. Embarrassing how people get their knickers in such a twist over it, and act like it’s an outrageous act.

Bottas knows what he is, he’s the support act. If he had the speed in the first stint, and built a sizeable gap, then the pit wall wouldn’t of had the ability to orchestrate who won.

[CaledonianCraig]

Well the Beeb aren't lying. At no stage did Hamilton show he was capable of passing Bottas legitimately

Can we subtract about 4 or 5 World titles from the Schu then? He won so many due to Ferrari team orders. Heck I remember Barrichello having to pull over on the last corner of a race to let Schumacher win. In any case so what if Hamilton won instead of second he still extended his lead over Vettel even without the win. And how many times has Kimi helped Seb out. Lots.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Well the Beeb aren't lying. At no stage did Hamilton show he was capable of passing Bottas legitimately

Can we subtract about 4 or 5 World titles from the Schu then? He won so many due to Ferrari team orders. Heck I remember Barrichello having to pull over on the last corner of a race to let Schumacher win. In any case so what if Hamilton won instead of second he still extended his lead over Vettel even without the win. And how many times has Kimi helped Seb out. Lots.

Schumacher essentially rebuilt ferrari from laughing stocks to champions. Schumacher had Barrichello on toast pretty 95% of the time. Austria is probably Schumacher's worst moment in a Ferrari. Kimi can't really 'help Vettel' when majority of the time he's miles behind.

[CaledonianCraig]

However, you wish to paint it Ferrari wrote the manual on team orders so they can have no complaints when other teams follow it. In any case we could also say Lewis Hamilton established Mercedes as a winning machine.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

In any case we could also say Lewis Hamilton established Mercedes as a winning machine.

This isn't remotely true. Juan Manuel Fangio made Mercedes relevant in F1 with his consecutive championships in 1954 and 1955. Even after the left F1 as a team Mercedes have been perennial winners with McLaren. Let's not try and give out false accolades

[CaledonianCraig]

In any case we could also say Lewis Hamilton established Mercedes as a winning machine.

This isn't remotely true. Juan Manuel Fangio made Mercedes relevant in F1 with his consecutive championships in 1954 and 1955. Even after the left F1 as a team Mercedes have been perennial winners with McLaren. Let's not try and give out false accolades

It is as true as your Schumacher analogy. Ferrari were mightily successful before he came along. Years earlier though just as Mercedes as Silver Arrows were successful decades earlier.

[Guest]

As for the WDC, doubtful that Vettel overhauls a 50 point deficit now, if anything, it will probably extend out. Season unravelled a while ago for Ferrari, and now looks more than likely, that both WDC and Constructors, have been lost.

As for Honda, apparently TR believe that their new engine has gained 0.5s in performance, and will be used at Suzuka. Problem is, typhoons expected, so doubtful to see it’s full potential.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Ferrari are so incompetent that even if they had a 50pt lead they'd find away to blow it.

[No name Bertie]

I was impressed with Vettel's post race press conference - he is showing growing maturity - he basically said it was a no-brainer what Mercedes did.  He also drove fair again with one minor contentious issue.   The main issue was the track - it is not a "racing" track - it is more a precession track with overtaking next to impossible - unless you're in a much much faster car.  Last year there was only one racing overtake in the entire race.  Hamilton was able to overtake Vettel in a narrow window of opportunity.  

Hamilton wasn't really able to answer questions competently - he seemed a bit too "guilt ridden" and glum.  He did give a proper explanation but the journalists kept asking the same question in different ways.   Yes Bottas was unfortunate - but the Mercedes made the right decision, giving the exact conditions of the race when it occurred, and their responsibility to maximise the result for the entire racing team comprising thousands of employees, support staff, sponsors etc.  It can't be just about the individuals drivers they are dependent on and responsible to the team.  I think Hamilton would have better handled the questionings if he had focused on that.

In my view the biggest issue was the circuit itself, and yes Bottas was unfortunate and "deserved" the victory as an individual - but the Mercedes team got the result that they too deserved - given the effort they have put in and the bigger picture of the championship.

[Guest]

I was impressed with Vettel's post race press conference - he is showing growing maturity - he basically said it was a no-brainer what Mercedes did

Anyone who follows the sport, or remotely understands it, knows why it was a no-brainer of a decision. Unfortunately, the situation has arisen, and the media are just scraping the barrel for some controversy, to bring to it’s casual fans, because Sochi is such a bore-fest. Vettel is actually quite lucky that the team orders situation has taken centre piece, instead of the focus on another mistake of his at T13.

As Toto Wolff stated, ‘I’d rather be the baddie for today, and not be the idiot at the end of the year’. He’ll go into his Daimler board meeting with a Championship, and come out with a bonus, and his job in tact. Arriverbene will be going into his meeting, and come out unemployed.

To further this, Arrivabene is one of the candidates being considered, to become General Director at Juventus F.C.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Ferrari struggling like hell yet decide in their wisdom that Japan is a good place to introduce their Philip Morris sponsorship livery.

[GSC]

If you're changing quali just make Q3 a one shot attempt, with the drivers going out in reverse Q2 order.

[CaledonianCraig]

If you're changing quali just make Q3 a one shot attempt, with the drivers going out in reverse Q2 order.

The problem you'd have with that is that those going first may have wet track conditions that dry out for those going last and vice versa. Okay it would throw up a more varied grid but I am not sure if those that hold the power would agree to it (Mercedes and Ferrari).

[Guest]

Not overly fussed about changing Q, neither are the drivers.

Nathaniel, seems Ferrari’s drop in power unit performance, could have coincided with the FIA deciding to install a second sensor, to measure electrical energy flow. It was only installed on Ferrari supplied PU’s, as the FIA wanted a more accurate reading of there twin-battery system. The sudden reduced power in the Ferrari, also coincides with the disappearance of the burnt oil smoke coming out of the exhaust.

Big weekend for Honda coming up. Horner stating that they’re expecting a 0.5s gain in performance from TR.

[GSC]

If you're changing quali just make Q3 a one shot attempt, with the drivers going out in reverse Q2 order.

The problem you'd have with that is that those going first may have wet track conditions that dry out for those going last and vice versa. Okay it would throw up a more varied grid but I am not sure if those that hold the power would agree to it (Mercedes and Ferrari).

If there's a threat of weather revert back to 10 min session imo.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Not overly fussed about changing Q, neither are the drivers.

Nathaniel, seems Ferrari’s drop in power unit performance, could have coincided with the FIA deciding to install a second sensor, to measure electrical energy flow. It was only installed on Ferrari supplied PU’s, as the FIA wanted a more accurate reading of there twin-battery system. The sudden reduced power in the Ferrari, also coincides with the disappearance of the burnt oil smoke coming out of the exhaust.

Big weekend for Honda coming up. Horner stating that they’re expecting a 0.5s gain in performance from TR.

Some of the pitlane reporters are suggesting Ferrari's downturn is due to the revised bodywork upgrade being a dud.

I still believe it's the battery issue but these experts are paid the big bucks to evaluate these things

[Guest]

It’s all just hush, hush, but everything eventually gets leaked. It’s the battery, and everyone in the paddock knows it. FIA installed the secondary sensor, and Cyril Abitboul suggested that there is clear evidence, that using their GPS tracker, it has shown Ferrari has less grunt since Singapore. Mercedes engine guru Andy Cowell insists Ferrari "still has plenty of power", but the data still points to a drop off of power, under acceleration.

[Guest]

Hamilton pole, Bottas 2nd, and Verstappen in 3rd. Vettel in 8th.

Dysfunctional outfit are Ferrari. Vettel

Positive step forward for Honda though.

[Guest]

Comfortable win for Lewis Hamilton. 63 pts ahead of Vettel, who finished in sixth.

Mercedes lead Ferrari by 78 pts in the Constructors Championship.

Fifth World Championship pretty much in the bag for Hamilton now. Vettel producing another mistake, as he collided with Verstappen unnecessarily. In terms of driving performance, this has to be one of the worst driving seasons for Vettel.

George Russell looking likely to have secured a Williams seat for 2019

[CaledonianCraig]

I think we saw Ferrari raise the white flag today. They didn't even bother to ask Rear Gunner Raikkonen to move over for Vettel.

[dyrewolfe]

In any case we could also say Lewis Hamilton established Mercedes as a winning machine.

This isn't remotely true. Juan Manuel Fangio made Mercedes relevant in F1 with his consecutive championships in 1954 and 1955. Even after the left F1 as a team Mercedes have been perennial winners with McLaren. Let's not try and give out false accolades

     

God, your blatant anti-Hamilton bias does you no favours at all. Makes you look pretty stupid, in fact.

Mercedes had been out of F1 for the best part of 50 years. Their current winning streak with Hamilton & Rosberg is what makes them relevant today.

Grow up and at least try to have some semblance of objectivity. Your arguments might make more sense then.

[dyrewolfe]

Comfortable win for Lewis Hamilton. 63 pts ahead of Vettel, who finished in sixth.

Mercedes lead Ferrari by 78 pts in the Constructors Championship.

Fifth World Championship pretty much in the bag for Hamilton now. Vettel producing another mistake, as he collided with Verstappen unnecessarily. In terms of driving performance, this has to be one of the worst driving seasons for Vettel.

George Russell looking likely to have secured a Williams seat for 2019

Yep - Vettel again showing he is prone to mistakes / poor decision-making under pressure. Title was effectively in the bag for Hamilton a couple of races ago, but this just confirms it. Vettel now needing Mercedes to have absolute disasters at the remaining races...not looking likely.

Utterly predictable race at the front. The only thing that made it worth watching were the battles going on in the midfield pack. Think the early SC stopped them getting spread out too early.

[Guest]

World Titles: Schumacher 7 - Hamilton 4 (soon to be 5)
Pole Positions - Schumacher 68 - Hamilton 80
Race Wins: Schumacher 91 - Hamilton 71
Fastest Laps: Schumacher 77 - Hamilton 40
Podiums: Schumacher 155 - Hamilton 131
Most Consecutive seasons with a race win: Schumacher 15 - Hamilton 12
Wins at an individual Grand Prix/Circuit: Schumacher 8 (at France/Magny-Cours) - Hamilton 6 (Canada/Montreal and Hungary/Hungaroring)

Kind of laughed at the ridiculous thought of anyone matching Schumacher's records a few years ago, but Hamilton seems on a relentless mission, in pursuit of achieving & extracting everything out of his career. How many of Schumacher's stats will be matched/broken by Hamilton over the next couple of seasons?

Personally, I still think seven world titles is out of reach. He might make it to six, but surely the Mercedes era has to end at some point? Is anyone good enough to step up and do it, is another question.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Tbh these most wins, most poles etc are getting distorted by the ever expanding race calendar. A better comparison would be Schumacher 2000-04 vs Hamilton 2014-18 - as these periods have been both most dominant stages

Races:
Schumacher - 85
Hamilton - 96(potentially raising to 100)

Wins:
Schumacher - 48
Hamilton - 49

Winning %:
Schumacher - 56%
Hamilton - 51%

Podiums:
Schumacher - 66
Hamilton - 77

Podium %:
Schumacher - 77%
Hamilton - 80%

Pole position:
Schumacher - 48
Hamilton - 49

Pole position %:
Schumacher - 56%
Hamilton - 51%

Fastest lap:
Schumacher - 27
Hamilton - 27

Championships:
Schumacher - 5 WDC + 5 WCC
Hamilton - 4 WDC + 5 WCC (I took the liberty of polishing off 2018)

At their peaks it close but the German was marginally superior. I thought Hamilton had more poles in the turbo hybrid era

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Williams confirmed the signature of Mercedes junior George Russell for 2019. The reigning GP3 champion close to emulating Rosberg, Hamilton, Hulkenberg and LeClerc by winning the GP2/F2 title at the first attempt. Hopefully Williams give young Russell a decent car so he can showcase his immense talent

[Guest]

Mercedes – Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas
Ferrari – Sebastian Vettel and Charles Leclerc
Red Bull - Max Verstappen and Pierre Gasly
Renault – Daniel Ricciardo and Nico Hulkenberg
Haas – Romain Grosjean and Kevin Magnussen
McLaren – Carlos Sainz and Lando Norris
Force India – Lance Stroll and Sergio Perez
Toro Rosso – Daniil Kvyat and TBC
Sauber – Kimi Raikkonen and Antonio Giovinazzi
Williams – George Russell and TBC

Two seats remain. Sergio Perez expected to be announced alongside Lance Stroll in Mexico, while Esteban Ocon looks likely to become the Mercedes reserve driver for 2019.

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