The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub

First topic message reminder :

Welcome to the virtual rugby pub - a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no defacing the Tommy Bowe photo on the bar. That's a banning offence

So pull up a chair....what'll it be?

Mick(TEFC) wrote:Because I've never had the feeling that the Ulster team should have been doing better. I did however feel that the synergy of the team and the recent imports for a while saw them doing better than I expected. I don't profess expertise, that's just how I saw it.


See it,or saw it? Mon cher,times change

Oui, oui Monsieur, c'est tres vraiment.

We have the same level of facilities, fanbase, Academy etc. as Munster and Leinster, yet have been nowhere near as successful. There's just as much ptential up here, but we've been desperately poor at harnessing that potential.

That's changing. What's not significant is the current group of players, but rather the sudden and dramatic improvement in how the club is being run off the field. They've negotiated whopping sponsorship deals that have increased our spending power exponentially. That, combined with a fertile academy and talented home-grown players, should see a steady improvement over the next few years.

Notch,Although I know nought, it appears that your team has been caught up in the demand for national glory,whereas a team is a team and should only be responsible to its local supporters.Yes, I despise ALL that is nationalistic tendencies(but I suppose that when money is getting thown at you to improve the national level,then you have little choice).We do not have that here...only money

Notch I'm merely referring to a post I read above that says that Ulster have under achieving since 2006. I think thats nonsense for the reasons I have said. I think Ulster had a fantastic season last year and will prove that it wasn't a flash in the pan over the next few years. All I think its that up until now they were average and that they will not beat both Clermont and Tigers.

I suspect Munster will break the bank for Nonu.

This g.p should go down to the wire....go on Jenson!!

We clearly were under-achieving as a squad though from 2006 onwards. A team that goes 1st to 6th to 9th across three seasons without changing any of the players that won them the league is underachieving!

To be fair, after that we lost a lot of experienced players and had to spend a few seasons basically rebuilding from the ground up. So at that point- we were what we were. A young team without leaders that tended to play well but fail to close out tight games. Then this year we added some experienced players and built a bit of a siege mentality and suddenly we started climbing the table again

Prop how do you expect Gloucester to do next year. To me they seem to have lost some very good squad players like Attwood, Robinson, Doran-Jones and Azam without really bringing in experience to replace them. Looking at their squad on paper I wouldn't back them to make playoffs or qualify from their European pool.

Or are you more optimistic?

And reading theASM blogs,Ravenhill is feared more than Welford.Is that because of the nature of the defeat,or the number of bonus points gleaned?

I have no idea. Maybe the weather?

The reason this is the hardest pool is because all of the away games for every side will be hard, hard games. All three sides have the 'Fortress' mentality when it comes to their home games.

Aironi should be harder to beat away as well.

Come and play in -5° conditions at Michelin;that is cold;wet is slippery

Yes, I've heard as much. Leicester is nice and sunny and welcoming though, so it won't be too bad 8)

Notch wrote:Have patience. We are on the way back to where we belong.

Notch, I can only hope that you made the above comment with tongue firmly in cheek, otherwise it has to be one of the most arrogant things I've read on here?

Notch wrote:We have the same level of facilities, fanbase, Academy etc. as Munster and Leinster, yet have been nowhere near as successful. There's just as much ptential up here, but we've been desperately poor at harnessing that potential.

That's changing. What's not significant is the current group of players, but rather the sudden and dramatic improvement in how the club is being run off the field. They've negotiated whopping sponsorship deals that have increased our spending power exponentially. That, combined with a fertile academy and talented home-grown players, should see a steady improvement over the next few years.

I beg to differ. Ulster dont have the same level of facilities, fanbase or Academy as Leinster or Munster. Leinster are streets ahead of both in their Academy. And compared to Ulster, before and now - in fan levels.

I think it will be long time before Ulster reach those levels. Maybe 5 years. IF all goes incredibly well.

The RDS holds 20,000. Its a higgedly-piggeldy stadium and will have to be upgraded. That is our achilles heel. The only one. Still, 20,000 is healthy in the meantime. I know Ulster have plans there too. Munster have TP - it is built for the future, but they will find it hard to fill, if they dont do well in the HC. They did not build it with the ML in mind.

I think Leinster will leave both behind for years to come. Why? Because we have streaked ahead in the Irish player base (check the Irish squad) , in marketing and will do so in training facilties next year. Success helps buy more success. The Leinster Way is the model to follow for the other provinces. Ulster have just begun this process. Munster look on it with envy and will up the ante.But that will take time. It took us 10 years.

Not a WUM. Just reality. So dont get upset. Just follow.

red_stag wrote:Prop how do you expect Gloucester to do next year. To me they seem to have lost some very good squad players like Attwood, Robinson, Doran-Jones and Azam without really bringing in experience to replace them. Looking at their squad on paper I wouldn't back them to make playoffs or qualify from their European pool.

Or are you more optimistic?

Personally i'm quite optimistic, we've blooded a lot of youngsters and ESF has hit top form. It is a worry about a leader in the front row but this is Nick Wood's chance to become more of a leader. The world cup may hurt us with Hamilton likely to be going but overall i'm fairly happy. I'd like to think that Redpath and Hogg are aiming for the following: LV champions, prem final and to get out of the group in the h.c. Also having John Brain on board should help find some youngsters. I'm intrigued by this argentinian hooker we've signed. I could go on and do a large analysis but would be here for a while, maybe I should look at doing my 1st v2 article on it!

In other news....get in Jenson!!

Thanks for the advice Gibbo. I'll pass it onto McGahan

A lot of sensitive souls on here tonight.

Gibbo

I think Notch may well have been referring to where the relative provinces where at the advent of professionalism. I may be wrong but at present i would say Leinster and Munster have a lot more what i would call 'active fans' than Ulster. There is a massive amount of laps Ulster fans and where the issue has been (and to a degree still is ) is in mobilising them. Success will help with that

It seems to many youngsters though Prop?

Nick Wood and Jim Hamilton are top blokes to have in your front and second row but what about the other 3. Narraway is a superb number 8 but the backrow lacks depth. Taylor and Burns (who is a superb talent) lack experience and I feel there may come a time the Glaws halfbacks are found wanting. EFS, Simpson Daniel and Sharples are all great backs.

So really I suppose from 1-10 it looks shaky, 11-15 look fine.

Evening all

Just watching the Saxons game from earlier. I don't remember ever seeing 3 penalty tries for one team in one match before.

A few players really put their hand up to be included with the senior squad for the pre WC friendlies. Martin Johnson could have some real tough decisions to make which is great news.

Are you serious Asbo?

Is there something wrong with ambition? We measure ourselves against our provincial rivals and to have fallen so far behind them is the exception rather than the rule throughout over a hundred years of Irish Rugby. The gap is slowly being closed; on and off the pitch.

I think it's telling that you come out as a fan and say 'we should be better than we are' and there are hordes of people waiting to knock you down. Gibson makes good points, but at the beginning of the professional era Leinster had an un-upgraded Donnybrook, no-one had ever handled a rugby ball outside South Dublin () and they were being run out of a portacabin. By one guy! They built themselves up as an organisation to something thats completely unrecognisable from where they were. A massive success story. It's that example we are following. The thing is, the amount of untapped potential in Ulster is huge. It's not on the pitch which was the biggest thing holding us back. Now we actually have people running the place that know what they are doing.

Gibson; in a few years we'll have a stadium the size of the RDS and own it to boot. Our academy is pretty good and getting better. My point is we have the potential to match what Leinster have done not that we have already done it. I'm comparing the potential of the respective provinces. Leinster have maximised their potential, Ulster have not. As for fanbase, it comes and goes with success. The example is that there were something like 500 fans at the first game of the season Ulster won the European Cup and 40,000 at the Final with thousands more looking for tickets. Marketing is important, but success is even more important. The bandwagon element is crucial to any provincial side.

Pete I think England will always have tough choices to make. There have been some fantastic England players who have had fairly non existent interntional careers. With such a large playing base it must be that way.

But yes its a particularly strong Saxons line up.

Notch the thing that suggests arrogance is that you said Ulster will soon be back where you belong. That is very different to suggesting improvement.

LDCPete wrote:Evening all

Just watching the Saxons game from earlier. I don't remember ever seeing 3 penalty tries for one team in one match before.

A few players really put their hand up to be included with the senior squad for the pre WC friendlies. Martin Johnson could have some real tough decisions to make which is great news.

England only play friendlies,Pete? When you read the comments from the other side of the Irish Sea,battle begins in earnest as soon as theres a non IQ facing them,those guys know how to plan.

red_stag wrote:Thanks for the advice Gibbo. I'll pass it onto McGahan

Id pass it on to Eddie O Sullivan, Stag. Or Deccie, if he goes back. McGahan does not have the wherewithall to take you back to the levels you once reached.
I think most Munster fans realise that too. Axel is a step in the right direction. He is precious as part of a the future coaching team. He is Munster. But you need an experienced, top-level coach to win the HC again. That and your acadmey to produce the same level of player who did. That will not happen with this batch.

BTW, just to be clear here, I am being deadly serious. Not WUMing. I respect the regs in here too much for that.

Ive done far too much niceness. Time for reality.

Gibbo, this isn't a wum, just being realistic.

Leinster doesn't own its own ground and to make it with the truly great clubs, thats what its going to have to do. Just think - Toulouse has a Michelin Star Restaurant - the RDS has portacabin toilets!

I don't see why. It's always been the case in Irish Rugby that there was very little to seperate Leinster, Munster and Ulster. Inter-provincial games were always hard fought and close.

In the last 10 years, Ulster fell behind the other two provinces. Now we're slowly building towards catching them up and making it a three-way rivalry rather than a two-way thing.

That's where we belong in truth.

Sin é wrote:Gibbo, this isn't a wum, just being realistic.

Leinster doesn't own its own ground and to make it with the truly great clubs, thats what its going to have to do. Just think - Toulouse has a Michelin Star Restaurant - the RDS has portacabin toilets!

wetting myself, but the Ladies race on the opening day of the show is something to be beholden(source Kia)

red_stag wrote:Pete I think England will always have tough choices to make. There have been some fantastic England players who have had fairly non existent interntional careers. With such a large playing base it must be that way.

But yes its a particularly strong Saxons line up.

The best thing about the Saxons line up Stag is the average age. There was only one back in the starting line up who was over the age of 23.

12 and 13 have been problem shirts for England in recent times, but Twelvetrees and Trinder have looked excellent prospects. I know it is not full test rugby, but I am heartened by a number of players performances in the Churchill Cup. It is a shame that Ireland are not in it this year, I think that an Ireland 'A' side with players fighting for a place on the plane to NZ would have been a much sterner test for England than any of the teams in this years competition.

Gibson wrote:

red_stag wrote:Thanks for the advice Gibbo. I'll pass it onto McGahan

Id pass it on to Eddie O Sullivan, Stag. Or Deccie, if he goes back. McGahan does not have the wherewithall to take you back to the levels you once reached.
I think most Munster fans realise that too. Axel is a step in the right direction. He is precious as part of a the future coaching team. He is Munster. But you need an experienced, top-level coach to win the HC again. That and your acadmey to produce the same level of player who did. That will not happen with this batch.

BTW, just to be clear here, I am being deadly serious. Not WUMing. I respect the regs in here too much for that.

Ive done far too much niceness. Time for reality.

Certainly hope so Gibbo because I agree with all that. McGahan has been a stop gap. Laurie Fisher didn't work. We have BJ Botha in to improve the scrum by teaching the way he did at Ulster. Anthony Foley is the future. Wouldn't really mind if O'Sullivan came along to be honest. Agree about current academy batch. But we have good enough 23-25 year olds to tide us over a few years.

Mick(TEFC) wrote:

LDCPete wrote:Evening all

Just watching the Saxons game from earlier. I don't remember ever seeing 3 penalty tries for one team in one match before.

A few players really put their hand up to be included with the senior squad for the pre WC friendlies. Martin Johnson could have some real tough decisions to make which is great news.

England only play friendlies,Pete? When you read the comments from the other side of the Irish Sea,battle begins in earnest as soon as theres a non IQ facing them,those guys know how to plan.

I suspect Ireland will beat us in the warm up games Chef, but when it comes to the serious business down under, I wager a pound to a pinch of shoite that we go further in the competition than they do.

Not WUMming, just keeping it real!

Stag: I'm hopeful, off to bed now so will continue a glos chat tomorrow and maybe compose an article.

Nos da all

Probably as they can get right to the semi finals without facing Australia, South Africa, New Zealand or Ireland. The big 4

England to beat Scotland, Argentina, Georgia and Romania. Beat France in the quarters. Easy peasy.

Yeah, I'd back them to make the semi-finals at least Pete.

Ireland really need to beat Australia and win the group to make the semis. Smart money is on a quarter-final exit.

Standulstermen wrote:A lot of sensitive souls on here tonight.

Gibbo

I think Notch may well have been referring to where the relative provinces where at the advent of professionalism. I may be wrong but at present i would say Leinster and Munster have a lot more what i would call 'active fans' than Ulster. There is a massive amount of laps Ulster fans and where the issue has been (and to a degree still is ) is in mobilising them. Success will help with that

Stand,
I may cause gritted teeth. The reason being - I am telling the truth. Someone has to here. For Ulster to get 20,000 fans at Ravenhill and fill Lansdowne with 50,000 - 4 times in row is not being realistic. It wont happen. With Munster either now. Unless they play Leinster in the ML and progress in the HC. If they dont progress in the HC next season, it will get worse. The signs are already there to see.

Nice to dream, but hard to be subjective. At least be honest. At least have some grounds in actual reality in our discussions. That's all I ask.
Sheer demographics and momentum - makes this impossible to compare the provinces any more. The East is awake.

Respect you all, so I owe you the Truth as I see it. The Leinster horse has bolted and is running away fast from the provincial pack. So, its best not to compare. Just do it on your own level and see what happens.

Oi As, it that arrogant? No, it's the truth.

Gibson wrote:So, its best not to compare

The only one comparing is you

Notch wrote:I don't see why. It's always been the case in Irish Rugby that there was very little to seperate Leinster, Munster and Ulster. Inter-provincial games were always hard fought and close.

In the last 10 years, Ulster fell behind the other two provinces. Now we're slowly building towards catching them up and making it a three-way rivalry rather than a two-way thing.

That's where we belong in truth.

I should add it's not where we are entitled to be. It's not somewhere that we'll reach without significant improvement and dare I say a bit of luck... it's just the way Irish Rugby is. Cyclical, but generally the three provinces tend to be quite close with one dominating at any one time. Looks to be Leinster for the next five years or so. Ulster are now improving again. We're catching up.

I honestly don't see how this is arrogant.

Evening all.

Have just signed up in the last week. This looks like a busy pub forum - nice idea.

I must admit Gibbo, you never fail to raise a smile

Evening all, just popping my head round the door before heading off for some sleep.

Pot Hale - welcome! always good to see a new face around here

France Who?

honestly,and I don't get excited about national sport(besides French Handball-you'll get to appreciate the sport!!!),the FFR is on a very long walkabout,with perhaps B'echu and Galthie bailing them out as of next season

You ooo it here first

According to the Munster players, Laurie Fisher was brilliant with regard to the breakdown (think back to the 'gang tackle' Munster used against Perpignam and now Ireland have started using - that was down to Fisher).

I wouldn't let EOS near the place. There is a reason why he is coaching USA. Ireland got very stale and predictable with him as coach. The players forgot how to play heads up rugby. Something similar happened with Leinster & Cheika.

If Munster was to bring in a coach, I'd like to see someone like Gert Smal - defininately someone who would be happy to play to Munster's traditional strengths. But to be honest, I don't think McGahan is as bad as you all make out. Cheika got similar stick for a while (probably up to 2008 when Leinster won the Magners).

Notch wrote:Are you serious Asbo?

Is there something wrong with ambition? We measure ourselves against our provincial rivals and to have fallen so far behind them is the exception rather than the rule throughout over a hundred years of Irish Rugby. The gap is slowly being closed; on and off the pitch.

I think it's telling that you come out as a fan and say 'we should be better than we are' and there are hordes of people waiting to knock you down. Gibson makes good points, but at the beginning of the professional era Leinster had an un-upgraded Donnybrook, no-one had ever handled a rugby ball outside South Dublin () and they were being run out of a portacabin. By one guy! They built themselves up as an organisation to something thats completely unrecognisable from where they were. A massive success story. It's that example we are following. The thing is, the amount of untapped potential in Ulster is huge. It's not on the pitch which was the biggest thing holding us back. Now we actually have people running the place that know what they are doing.

Gibson; in a few years we'll have a stadium the size of the RDS and own it to boot. Our academy is pretty good and getting better. My point is we have the potential to match what Leinster have done not that we have already done it. I'm comparing the potential of the respective provinces. Leinster have maximised their potential, Ulster have not. As for fanbase, it comes and goes with success. The example is that there were something like 500 fans at the first game of the season Ulster won the European Cup and 40,000 at the Final with thousands more looking for tickets. Marketing is important, but success is even more important. The bandwagon element is crucial to any provincial side.

The bandwagon is vital Notch. I was actually getting annoyed with some wee lass in NLR when she told me to please stop shouting an jumping up and down at the Toulouse game. Her boyfriend - a fan, just went red. I told her "to go make me a cup of tea - I was watching the game". He laffed his orse off. NLR possibly had about 10/15,000 of them. Men and wimmin. Thats a lot of tea. And money for the coffers. I know what's happening. Ive seen it with Munster.

Your other points are also valid. It will take some going though man. I love your passion for Ulster. I am the same - only different.

Believe.

red_stag wrote:

Gibson wrote:So, its best not to compare

The only one comparing is you

Erm dont think so Stag. I didnt start this mo chara. I just joined in.

Bandwagons are hugely important - when they arrive thats how you know your going palces.

gibbo drinx T in public

I agree and disagree Gibbo. Its hard to judge Ulster by the same criteria because we havent had the success of the other 2 provinces, we dont have the advantage of proximity to Lansdowne as Leinster do, and we havent had the countrys pre-eminent sportsman in our team for the past 10 years.

Leinster are ahead yes but how many Munster fans contributed to the Aviva sellout? Im not diminishing their acheivements and i think they are ahead as you say. They may well remain so for many years but i think BOD's retirement will affect this. His example has been immense.

Who is the next talisman for Ireland? SOB, Heaslip, Ferris, Marshall, Gilroy, Jones, etc etc
Success is what breeds this popularity and while i agree Leinster have been exemplary in capitalising on this there will come a period when it isnt maintained. Its the same with Irish rugby in general. There are a fair amount of blow ins that were taken to fill Croke Park. If Ulster or Munster produce a player of the calibre of BOD (only 20 odd years to wait for my son ) then we can see a shift. Whilst i am envious of Leinster at present i definately dont resent it and if Ulster cant be the pre-eminent team in Europe i want an Irish team to be. I do think that you Leinster lads shouldnt take this period for granted as there is no guarantee that this will continue to be the case. Munster arent a million miles away and Ulster are making the right noises. whether Ulster have the same finance or not as Leinster is secondary. Leinster beat Toulouse who have a massive advantage in terms of finance.

A strong Leinster makes for a strong Ireland and i agree it looks set to continue but a lot will change from season to season and we cant guarantee anything.

It's the first steps in a massive journey Gibson. A journey that will take us years.

I'm getting a bit of flak for it from the regs here, but there's a real desire within Ulster Rugby to not just have one season and then regress. There's a genuine desire to build something long lasting and special. No shortcuts. I doubt we'll win a trophy at all next year, I'd be happy if we reached the Amlin and the Magners playoffs, but we'll keep progressing as a side and the lessons we learn from going to Michelin and Welford Road will be echoed in future, successful European campaigns. What I'm saying is... we believe! You should understand that sentiment

Munsty,
I suppose this is too late

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qga5eONXU_4

Pot Hale wrote:Evening all.

Have just signed up in the last week. This looks like a busy pub forum - nice idea.

Hoi Pot Hale man.

Welcome to this Jungle we call the Pub. We dont bite... well I say that...

rugbydreamer wrote:Evening all, just popping my head round the door before heading off for some sleep.

Pot Hale - welcome! always good to see a new face around here

Thanks Rugbydreamer and Gibson. Good layout. Is it topic-based only or are there articles created from these as well?