The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub

by Adam D Fri 10 Jun 2011, 11:17 am

First topic message reminder :

Welcome to the virtual rugby pub - a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no defacing the Tommy Bowe photo on the bar. That's a banning offence

So pull up a chair....what'll it be? appletini

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:19 pm

Welcome aboard Pot Hale Ale

. The "Pub" tends to be pretty free wheeling in terms of chat. Out on the main rugby board we get some decent articles coming out of the woodwork, and some pretty good debate Smile

.

Evening everyone, I've been feeling knackered all day so have been a bit quiet. Great win for Button in the F1 tonught though.

I'm off to bed, so ka kite ano.

by red_stag Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:20 pm

Hi Pot, hows the form? You can create articles if you want. Many people do and to be honest we should be creating more. This is just a thread we use to chit chat.

by Gibson Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:20 pm

Standulstermen wrote:I agree and disagree Gibbo. Its hard to judge Ulster by the same criteria because we havent had the success of the other 2 provinces, we dont have the advantage of proximity to Lansdowne as Leinster do, and we havent had the countrys pre-eminent sportsman in our team for the past 10 years.

Leinster are ahead yes but how many Munster fans contributed to the Aviva sellout? Im not diminishing their acheivements and i think they are ahead as you say. They may well remain so for many years but i think BOD's retirement will affect this. His example has been immense.

Who is the next talisman for Ireland? SOB, Heaslip, Ferris, Marshall, Gilroy, Jones, etc etc
Success is what breeds this popularity and while i agree Leinster have been exemplary in capitalising on this there will come a period when it isnt maintained. Its the same with Irish rugby in general. There are a fair amount of blow ins that were taken to fill Croke Park. If Ulster or Munster produce a player of the calibre of BOD (only 20 odd years to wait for my son ) then we can see a shift. Whilst i am envious of Leinster at present i definately dont resent it and if Ulster cant be the pre-eminent team in Europe i want an Irish team to be. I do think that you Leinster lads shouldnt take this period for granted as there is no guarantee that this will continue to be the case. Munster arent a million miles away and Ulster are making the right noises. whether Ulster have the same finance or not as Leinster is secondary. Leinster beat Toulouse who have a massive advantage in terms of finance.

A strong Leinster makes for a strong Ireland and i agree it looks set to continue but a lot will change from season to season and we cant guarantee anything.

Stand, you are the voice of reason as always. Im just pointing out the sheer weight of numbers, momentum and the slick marketing-machine- backed up by a burgeoning academy. Ulster are producing there for sure now. Im busy promoting Gilroy, Jackson and the sublime Marshall, on every relevent post I hit. Sooo. balance

Me? I just want another Mike Gibson. So.. send us one Ulster. Send us one. BOD retiring, will be a devastating loss for us all. We will dip. He's that influential.

by Pot Hale Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:29 pm

red_stag wrote:Hi Pot, hows the form? You can create articles if you want. Many people do and to be honest we should be creating more. This is just a thread we use to chit chat.

The form is fine, thank you, Red Stag. Does one submit articles to Mods for consideration or do they go in the same place as the topics automatically?

by Gibson Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:30 pm

Munster arent a million miles away and Ulster are making the right noises. whether Ulster have the same finance or not as Leinster is secondary. Leinster beat Toulouse who have a massive advantage in terms of finance.

A strong Leinster makes for a strong Ireland and i agree it looks set to continue but a lot will change from season to season and we cant guarantee anything.

Its true. For all the financial might of Toulouse, ASM and Racing - we saw them off.

I dont even compare ourselves to them. Just liked beating them despite their resources. Is that what you are saying re Ulster? I hope ye do and put us in our place. Then, we have to step up again. All good. It is vital to have 3 strong provinces at the very top end. I want that bad.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:33 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
red_stag wrote:Hi Pot, hows the form? You can create articles if you want. Many people do and to be honest we should be creating more. This is just a thread we use to chit chat.

The form is fine, thank you, Red Stag. Does one submit articles to Mods for consideration or do they go in the same place as the topics automatically?

.

Pot Hale, you create them yourself and they show up as topics. Us Mods only touch them if you're being "naughty" Wink

or if there's already a similar thread up (in which case we'll merge 2 together).

by **Notch** Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:34 pm

Hola Pot. Welcome aboard! Another Irishman. We do like to talk.

by Sin é Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:36 pm

Do you seriously think that Leinster/Ireland will lose supporters when BOD retires?

I honestly don't think it will make a difference. Keith Wood was a big personality, and Ireland survived when he retired and Munster went onto great things after he went back to Quins.

Interesting questions at a Q&A with Leinster chief Exec/Leinster supporters club.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/olsc/6278.php

by Gibson Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:41 pm

Sin é wrote:Gibbo, this isn't a wum, just being realistic.

Leinster doesn't own its own ground and to make it with the truly great clubs, thats what its going to have to do. Just think - Toulouse has a Michelin Star Restaurant - the RDS has portacabin toilets!

Sin,
Feic off! Ok the truth hurts, but we have posh burgers like.

Long way to go to match those lads. On so many levels. I love Toulouse. They are and should be our model. And Im not talkin about restaurants here either. Ale

Enough. Going to watch a bit of TV.

Its been real. Its been emotional. thumbsup

by Gibson Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:51 pm

Sin é wrote:Do you seriously think that Leinster/Ireland will lose supporters when BOD retires?

I honestly don't think it will make a difference. Keith Wood was a big personality, and Ireland survived when he retired and Munster went onto great things after he went back to Quins.

Interesting questions at a Q&A with Leinster chief Exec/Leinster supporters club.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/olsc/6278.php

Last one for my mate Sin. I dont think we will lose supporters. I just think we will lose more than we know or realise yet. Loved Woody. He carried us through dark days and made us look special when we were not. He was inspirational. Wish he was still playing. But, he had nowhere near the same influence as BOD has had on Ireland for 10 years. He is exceptional and we will dip for a bit as a team. IF we dont fill the gaps now.

There is no one there now, to match his playing ability, or to do what he singularly does for us. No one. So, we will have to make it up in other areas.

I must read that article later man. Thanks. And goodnight.

Slaap lekker.

by nottins Sun 12 Jun 2011, 11:59 pm

Cymroglan wrote:Nottins are you doing the same job as you were before or is this one a career change.

What was the job I was doing before ?

by Sin é Mon 13 Jun 2011, 12:03 am

Gibson wrote:
Sin é wrote:Do you seriously think that Leinster/Ireland will lose supporters when BOD retires?

I honestly don't think it will make a difference. Keith Wood was a big personality, and Ireland survived when he retired and Munster went onto great things after he went back to Quins.

Interesting questions at a Q&A with Leinster chief Exec/Leinster supporters club.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/olsc/6278.php

Last one for my mate Sin. I dont think we will lose supporters. I just think we will lose more than we know or realise yet. Loved Woody. He carried us through dark days and made us look special when we were not. He was inspirational. Wish he was still playing. But, he had nowhere near the same influence as BOD has had on Ireland for 10 years. He is exceptional and we will dip for a bit as a team. IF we dont fill the gaps now.

There is no one there now, to match his playing ability, or to do what he singularly does for us. No one. So, we will have to make it up in other areas.

I must read that article later man. Thanks. And goodnight.

Slaap lekker.

Sorry, I disagree with you about BOD. We very nearly beat France in Croke Park when BOD was injured with Shane Horgan at centre! No man is bigger than any team - thats the ethos of rugby. Even the Lions managed to win a game without him at centre.

EDIT: Wasn't BOD missing for the Wembly game against Saracens? That was a great win for Leinster.

by Guest Mon 13 Jun 2011, 12:44 am

Notch wrote:Hola Pot. Welcome aboard! Another Irishman. We do like to talk.

Oh cripes, Portnoys will have kittens. Whistle

Finally got back to base and thought I'd left my room key in Wales. Thankfully they somehow were on my car key bunch. I can't remember doing that, so maybe my wonderful wife did it? Or I just forgot due to my drunkeness on Friday. So I'm lucky I don't have a three hour round trip back to Wales and then back here again.

I don't think it's arrogant to expect good things for your side. I expect a good season for the Dragons and that's based on nothing (no new signings of note and with losing a few key players to the WC squad). Tony Brown has already pumped money into the ground redevelopment and I think we'll get some signings soon. No household names, but a few hard edged players and we could possibly push for the playoffs. It seems our Amlin draw might be trickyish (seems like we'll get a decent French team from seed 1 and Exeter will be hard with their pack, especially down there) but we could maybe do okay there and get out of the group. I can't wait to be back on the terrace anyway, come what may. I'll certainly be making the most of it before my winter training camp (Nov-Feb) though I do regret in a way buying a season ticket given my uncertainty over games I can attend. Just like the status of being one I guess.

Anyway, I'll be off and leave this hiberno-centric pub to it Wink

I'll not be around much this week due to my course. Such A Sickener having no Internet.

by MBTGOG Mon 13 Jun 2011, 5:14 am

I'm up as early as Glas. What's going on?

by Glas a du Mon 13 Jun 2011, 6:05 am

Munsty, (unless you've been out all night) are you sure you're a student?

Sorry I took a bit to get back to you, but I had an Irish provincial discussion to read back.

by Mickado Mon 13 Jun 2011, 7:37 am

Morning all, a couple of Irish players nailing their political colours to the
Mast here. I say fair play to them, what do you think??

http://rugbyonslaught.blogspot.com/2011/06/irish-players-back-irish-ship-to-gaza.html

by mickyt Mon 13 Jun 2011, 7:46 am

Seen that alright mickado. Thought it was quite good to see. A lot of rugby players or sportsmen I'm general stay out of that sort of thing. So its refreshing to see

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 13 Jun 2011, 7:51 am

Morning all,

There's a whole lot more shakin' goin' on.
More detail Sad

I'm off to work, catch you all after 9.

by Cari Mon 13 Jun 2011, 8:06 am

Morning All mug

Won't be in much today as I've a long meeting later.

Mickado - don't see anything wrong with that. Sport is political anyway, so they might as well put a positive message out there.

Kiwi - heard about the latest quake this morning on the news. Hope your friends and familiars back home are OK. Smile

In other news, our department has given us all £50 each in vouchers. Some will consider it a bit of a cheek considering jobs are going but there we are. It's makes a change for them to recognise our hard work and dedication - I've only had "Reward & Recognition" once before and that was cause I was specifically nominated.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 13 Jun 2011, 8:38 am

red_stag wrote:Notch the thing that suggests arrogance is that you said Ulster will soon be back where you belong. That is very different to suggesting improvement.

Notch, Staggy picks up the emphasis correctly - I'm sorry but I find it distasteful that you clearly think you have some 'right' to be at the very top. Why Ulster, why are they any different to any other team?

Notch wrote:Are you serious Asbo?

Is there something wrong with ambition? We measure ourselves against our provincial rivals and to have fallen so far behind them is the exception rather than the rule throughout over a hundred years of Irish Rugby. The gap is slowly being closed; on and off the pitch.

Nothing wrong with ambition in the slightest, in fact, as I suspect most people do, I admire it (especially when it's attached to some pragmatism, which it may well be in Ulster's case. But to suggest that you have a 'right' just because of your history? I don't understand, even tho I can sit on the sidelines and enjoy watching you close "the gap" to L&M.

Notch wrote:I think it's telling that you come out as a fan and say 'we should be better than we are' and there are hordes of people waiting to knock you down.

Perhaps it is simply a case of words/semantics, but it sounded like you originally said that it was effectively owed to you to be at the top, which to me is very different to this comment - I don't think anyone would knock your ambitions for your club.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that, I suspect that a conversation in person might lead me to a different train of thought as to what you originally meant.

Good morning all, lovely cycle into work this morning, avoided all the major puddles! Usual for me pls: egg

&

by Mickado Mon 13 Jun 2011, 8:40 am

That’s pretty cool though Cari, 50’s is not to be sniffed at. Where’s the voucher for?

As for sport being political, yeah it can be (like the opening of Croker), but some would say it shouldn’t go out of its way to be. I say fair play to them, and even Trevor Hogan is actually going to travel with the flotilla so he’s backing up his words at least.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 13 Jun 2011, 8:46 am

Notch wrote:
Notch wrote:I don't see why. It's always been the case in Irish Rugby that there was very little to seperate Leinster, Munster and Ulster. Inter-provincial games were always hard fought and close.

In the last 10 years, Ulster fell behind the other two provinces. Now we're slowly building towards catching them up and making it a three-way rivalry rather than a two-way thing.

That's where we belong in truth.

I should add it's not where we are entitled to be. It's not somewhere that we'll reach without significant improvement and dare I say a bit of luck... it's just the way Irish Rugby is. Cyclical, but generally the three provinces tend to be quite close with one dominating at any one time. Looks to be Leinster for the next five years or so. Ulster are now improving again. We're catching up.

I honestly don't see how this is arrogant.

Notch, thank you, that is a significant clarification - confirmed that how you were coming across was not as you intended - thanks thumbsup

by Mickado Mon 13 Jun 2011, 8:59 am

I just have one point to add to the provincial conversation from last night, and for a change I’m going to contradict Sin E. Wink

The “gang tackle” that Laurie Fisher invented was actually added to the Irish canon by Les Kiss. He’s been talking about it for years, it was one of the weapons that made our defense so solid the year we won the GS.

by Cari Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:01 am

Mickado wrote:That’s pretty cool though Cari, 50’s is not to be sniffed at. Where’s the voucher for?

As for sport being political, yeah it can be (like the opening of Croker), but some would say it shouldn’t go out of its way to be. I say fair play to them, and even Trevor Hogan is actually going to travel with the flotilla so he’s backing up his words at least.

Oh I'm not complaining. It'll do nicely cause it's my sister's 40th at the beginning of July so they'll get used. They're usually the High Street ones where you can use them in any of the main shops.

Fairdo's to Hogan

Morning Asbo!

by **rodders** Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:02 am

red_stag wrote:Notch I'm merely referring to a post I read above that says that Ulster have under achieving since 2006. I think thats nonsense for the reasons I have said. I think Ulster had a fantastic season last year and will prove that it wasn't a flash in the pan over the next few years. All I think its that up until now they were average and that they will not beat both Clermont and Tigers.

Stag you have completely misinterpreted what I have said. Ulster won the league in 2006 then rather than kicking on, the on field perfromances and consistancy dropped dramatically. For most of the past 5 seasons we have had a very good crop of players but the performances have been very poor.

I actually think we played better rugby last season and also at times under Matt Williams than this year but what has changed is that we seem to have more of a winning mentality, probably in part due to the NIQ signings but also the young guys coming through without the baggage. The rugby we have played has been disjointed at times this year but we look a mentally stronger side.

We do not have a devine right for anything but Ulster and their supporters should not be happy with simply finishing above Connacht every season and making up the numbers in the HEC. I'm sorry if people think that is arrogant but to me a side with players of the quality of Trimble, Best, Wallace, Piennar, Muller, Ferris, Court, Jayne, Wannenburg, Danielli, Afoa, Humphreys, Spence, Cave, Thuohy etc. should be aiming a wee bit higher.

I would be very surprised if the Ospreys, Llanelli and Cardiff are not aiming to win the league next season? Or maybe you expect them and their supporters to lie down for Munster and Leinster too?

by Suspicious lurker Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:04 am

Morning all,

Spur of the moment thing and I'm now in the queue for the final of queens, its only a tenner a ticket

Anyway the papers

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/
http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport?mobile-redirect=false
http://sport.scotsman.com/rugby
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/
http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/rugby

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/headlines.cfm?c_id=80
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union

by red_stag Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:07 am

Rodders, no bother at all. As you can see from Asbos comments many of us interpreted the Ulster fans remarks out of context. But the shoe is also on the other foot - where do we say that Ulster fans should be content with the role of the third team in Ireland

by Mickado Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:11 am

What the hell is the final of queens?

by **rodders** Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:15 am

red_stag wrote:Rodders, no bother at all. As you can see from Asbos comments many of us interpreted the Ulster fans remarks out of context. But the shoe is also on the other foot - where do we say that Ulster fans should be content with the role of the third team in Ireland

Hey stag no bother. It just seems when any Ulster fan suggests any optimism about the seasons ahead they get accused of arrogance.

Not that Connacht should accept being the fourth best either of course....

by Cari Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:16 am

Mickado - it's a pre-Wimbledon tennis competition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/default.stm

Hughie - you do realise there's no Irish players in the final.. Wink

by Mickado Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:19 am

Ahh, I get it. I get stuff.

Has Ireland ever had a good tennis player? I remember years ago, whenever Wimbledon was on we’d always play tennis on the street, using the lines on the road as the net (which was 1 dimensional!) and such. It was great craic and girls would play too so everyone could have a go, I’m surprised we didn’t produce a world champ with a tennis culture like that!

by Guest Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:19 am

Morning all,

Very brief visit in here for me today, probs won't get on again until after work, am gasping for a cuppa

Cari - that's pretty nifty on the vouchers, I wouldn't say no to that!

Rodders: just a tiny, tiny point in what you say. Llanelli and Cardiff aren't in the Pro12. Scarlets and Blues are though!

Hughie - I'm very jealous. £10 for the Queens final is a complete bargain!

by Guest Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:20 am

Mick - a couple of years ago an Irish player got through a few rounds at the Australian Open in tennis, can't for the life of me remember his name though! Shall have to google it this evening.

by Cari Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:21 am

I used to play tennis on my own, banging the ball up against the wall, but when I had a go at proper tennis in school I was rubbish.

by Cari Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:23 am

Here you go Mickado & Hughie!

http://www.tennisireland.ie/

by **rodders** Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:24 am

rugbydreamer wrote:Rodders: just a tiny, tiny point in what you say. Llanelli and Cardiff aren't in the Pro12. Scarlets and Blues are though!

You are quite right I do apologise!

by robbo277 Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:33 am

Morning all!

Not a huge fan of tennis, most of the country seems to go tennis crazy for 2 weeks at Wimbledon, then forget about it for the rest of the year. Probably the same with rugby union and the Six Nations though. Last time I played (tennis) was at college, but I got bored after a while and tried to see how many times I could knock the ball over the fence before my friend realised that was what I was doing. Quite a few as it happens!

by **rodders** Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:53 am

mickyt wrote:Seen that alright mickado. Thought it was quite good to see. A lot of rugby players or sportsmen I'm general stay out of that sort of thing. So its refreshing to see

Whats going on with D'arcy and that earriing though? Is that appropriate for a 31 year old rugby player?

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 13 Jun 2011, 9:55 am

Morning all

day off work today, and the wife is at work and the kids at nursery/school so I have the house to myself. A nice relaxing day in front of the TV I hear you ask? Hell no, the wife has left me a list as long as my arm of DIY jobs that need doing!!!

No rest for the wicked eh! devil

Kiwi,

Heard about the quakes in Christchurch again mate, just want to echo what others have already said and say I hope all of yours are ok over there.

Right, must get this bowl of Frosties finished and crack on. Toodlepip!!!

by Adam D Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:01 am

Can I get a little help please guys - a couple of questions for Victor Ubogu have the words "tge" in them:

Glas a du wrote:

Should young players be signed up to professional clubs before they play for tge first team in a competitive match?

Can someone tell me what it means before I send it to him?

by Sin é Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:05 am

Mickado wrote:I just have one point to add to the provincial conversation from last night, and for a change I’m going to contradict Sin E.

The “gang tackle” that Laurie Fisher invented was actually added to the Irish canon by Les Kiss. He’s been talking about it for years, it was one of the weapons that made our defense so solid the year we won the GS.

Just going on what Paul O'Connell said after the Perpignam game (Dec '09) when asked about it. The commentators didn't seem to have noticed it during the GS 6N! In fact they haven't noticed Ireland doing it until the England game this 6Ns.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:07 am

Hobo wrote:Can I get a little help please guys - a couple of questions for Victor Ubogu have the words "tge" in them:

Glas a du wrote:

Should young players be signed up to professional clubs before they play for tge first team in a competitive match?

Can someone tell me what it means before I send it to him?

I think it means that the person posing the question has fat fingers as G is next to H on the keyboard! Wink

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:09 am

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:09 am

Morning again all. Have to admit tennis doesn't do a lot for me - rubbish at playing it (though I haven't tried the switching-to-left-handed move that worked wonders for my squash game) and can't really get into watching it on telly.

So far everyone I've heard from in Chch is safe, though plenty have more property damage, and a fair chunk of the city is still getting power and water back. Lots more liquefaction, and it sounds like a few buildings that were marginal for being saved will be demolished

by Adam D Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:10 am

It appears in two questions though:

Should young players be signed up to professional clubs before they play for tge first team in a competitive match?

and

What does tge future hold for rugby?

by robbo277 Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:21 am

It is a typo and should say "the"

Should young players be signed up to professional clubs before they play for the first team in a competitive match?

What does the future hold for rugby?

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:26 am

Bore da, pawb / good morning all. Drizzle in Newport but an improvement on yesterday.

Kiwi, glad to hear that you and yours are okay in Christchurch. Can you tell me what 'kia kaha' means?

Asbo, I had a puddle-dodging cycle in to work, too - but the cycle in wakes me up a treat!

Hobo, 'tge' is a typo and 'the' is what's meant. Another variant is 'teh.'

by Mickado Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:26 am

Sin é wrote:
Mickado wrote:I just have one point to add to the provincial conversation from last night, and for a change I’m going to contradict Sin E.

The “gang tackle” that Laurie Fisher invented was actually added to the Irish canon by Les Kiss. He’s been talking about it for years, it was one of the weapons that made our defense so solid the year we won the GS.

Just going on what Paul O'Connell said after the Perpignam game (Dec '09) when asked about it. The commentators didn't seem to have noticed it during the GS 6N! In fact they haven't noticed Ireland doing it until the England game this 6Ns.

I wouldn’t just wait for the commentators to mention it. It’s pretty clear that it’s a tactic we’ve been using for a while.

And it was only noticed by the commentators in the England game because it worked, and it only worked because Kidney had a chat with the referee’s and pointed out that it’s not an illegal tactic, we were blown off the pitch for it in all of the games leading up to that England match.

by Adam D Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:31 am

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Bore da, pawb / good morning all. Drizzle in Newport but an improvement on yesterday.

Kiwi, glad to hear that you and yours are okay in Christchurch. Can you tell me what 'kia kaha' means?

Asbo, I had a puddle-dodging cycle in to work, too - but the cycle in wakes me up a treat!

Hobo, 'tge' is a typo and 'the' is what's meant. Another variant is 'teh.'

I was googling it for the best part of an hour!

by **rodders** Mon 13 Jun 2011, 10:33 am

Whats this "gang tackle" tactic and in what way is it legal/illegal?

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