England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

First topic message reminder :

Off goes Rahul...at least he doesn't waste a review ! That was stone dead.
Jimmy on course for ten ?

Rahane in next as Kohli was off the field too long...

Gooseberry wrote:It doesnt mattwr who you select if they dont play to their ability.
Bairstow and Root are both test class batsmen, but done all over.

This is horrible.

Well there is some good news on this front, as Mark Ramprakash looks set to become the Middlesex head coach - and presumably will leave his post as England batting coach (which has overseen this rapid decline in England's test batting....)

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Bairstow looks totally clueless against this excellent swing bowling.

yes he looked clueless and ended miserably

A little harsh. That was excellent bowling. And he'd survived some good ones before that.

But I don't believe he's a top four bat in any case. He should have been left at seven where he was doing well but that's not the way England seem to operate lately...it's all " move your strong positions somewhere else to fill holes"... And it doesn't work. Maybe one day they'll learn.

Just hope they don't ruin Bairstow by messing him about , as I think they already did with Moeen.

Need this to be one of Cook's average-saving innings.

Oh, Cook has played a loose shot and I think this Test match is over. Not the first loose shot he has played, either, but he did look comfortable for the most part.

36/4.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Need this to be one of Cook's average-saving innings.

Gone for 17.

My bad...

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Need this to be one of Cook's average-saving innings.

Hexed ! Tame dismissal after once again looking solid....

Four down and this is looking like a total disaster. Hope the bowlers are up for some miracle working later...

Here for a Moeen/Buttler counter attack

If you fancy India, SkyBet still have them at 4/5. I can't see you not getting your money's worth

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Here for a Moeen/Buttler counter attack

Stokes hasn't got out yet ! Though even typing that seems a risk

Buttler's luck holding...as Pant badly misjudged that catch.

The last two innings when he's been dropped at the start , he's gone on to post 80 and 100 ; so hopefully this will be an omen...

Excellent bowling from India, on a misbehaving wicket. The England batting order simply doesn't have the ability to fend off consistently good bowling.

The task for England now is to try and reach 200, and hope (for the umpteenth time) that the bowlers can produce some brilliance. But it could easily be a case of one or two quick wickets after lunch and all out for 100.

57/4. Terrific session for India.

But 24 overs in two hours ? Like the old West Indian over rates...

Pant has been neat behind the stumps in collection and good in his reflexes....and agile in flying around
that "dropped" catch off Butler, he did well to get his hands to it

Safe WK-ing is as essential as good batting from a WK

India's session ....not only because the picked wickets but for not letting Eng get away with scoring at anytime

alfie wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Bairstow looks totally clueless against this excellent swing bowling.

yes he looked clueless and ended miserably

A little harsh.  That was excellent bowling.  And he'd survived some good ones before that.

But I don't believe he's a top four bat in any case.  He should have been left at seven where he was doing well but that's not the way England seem to operate lately...it's all " move your strong positions somewhere else to fill holes"... And it doesn't work. Maybe one day they'll learn.

Just hope they don't ruin  Bairstow by messing him about  , as I think they already did with Moeen.

Maybe ideally he wouldn't be a top 4 bat but he's easily Englands second best test batsman currently after Root.
Leaving him at 7 was bonkers, they learnt that lesson when he got stranded with the tail
Jennings, Stokes, Moeen, Buttler, Pope and the Cook of the last two years all average 35 or less (also see Vince , Pope, Malan, Westley, Stoneman and indeed every other batsman tried this decade). If Bairstow can't be in the top 4 then who?
Same with Root at 3.
When you are this short you have to ask your best players to play well and take responsibility. Yes its ridiculous that they have two keepers in the top 6 but they've both done better with their chances than Vince has (up or down the order)

The one good thing from that session - Sky's commentary team. Like Ian Ward, like Rob Key - good to see them "promoted" to the test today.

Maybe it's time to shift Cook down to 3? Get two new openers in?

Burns
???
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Buttler
Stokes

Looks a heck of a lot more solid....

I see Lord Bell of Warwickshire is currently on 94*.

I am hugely behind an opener at three, but I would not be surprised if Cook took it as a sign to retire if he were moved.

Textbook bowling from Shami. Lure Buttler into the drive, get the edge, and another sharp catch from Kohli.

Hope the weather stays fair for the decider...

Two left-handers for Ashwin to bowl at now.

Butler goes for a run a ball 20......and I noted last game his 100 was in a pressure-less situation when the defeat was certain
and that he would struggle in full pressured alive situations

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Maybe it's time to shift Cook down to 3? Get two new openers in?

Burns
???
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Buttler
Stokes

Looks a heck of a lot more solid....

When a question mark looks more solid than your current number 2 you know you've got a problem

Personally Id see the 3 spot as the place to blood a new opener, although they've really missed a trick on that this series and the way things are looking for Jennings its hard to have that luxury.

Burns is closing in on 1000 runs for the season in D1, and it was arguably only failing for the lions that cost him a space ..so yes seems like a no brainer he is next in line. The other player they looked at as a future opener was Gubbins, so if you were going to stick two in it would surely be them....unless they go very left field and pick a non opener as an opener.
There has long been a fringe theory that Bairstow could be a future opener, but they said that about Root too. Given he was unenthused by the idea of playing in the top 4 at all...that doesn't really seem viable. Hales and Roy aren't playing red ball cricket.

That does look like a stronger 4-7 ( and I think those are the right positions for those players) ...but it relies on finding two openers and the current Cook really being the match of Root at 3 to genuinely be better as a unit. I don't have a lot of faith that's possible.

Well for those who wanted Moeen in early ...you've got your way

Completely disagree with Goose re the batting order.

Asking Root to bat at three might have seemed like a good idea. But the figures say it isn't. Frankly having Vince at 3 and Root at 4 was producing more runs than the current set up.
Bat Bairstow at six if you must (not much difference whether he or Buttler occupy those two spots) but while I would love to be proved wrong I am reasonably certain neither of them will make a success of four. Square pegs in round holes...

Trouble is while they keep messing about like this they'll never develop a young player who might fit in the top order.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Maybe it's time to shift Cook down to 3? Get two new openers in?

Burns
???
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Buttler
Stokes

Looks a heck of a lot more solid....

Better than what they've got , anyway. Not that it's a high bar to clear...

I'd probably go with

Burns
.??? Maybe one day Hameed will get his mojo back ? We can hope...
Cook
Root
Stokes
JB
JB. (Those two interchangeable)

Mixes up the rights and lefts.

But it may be too late for Cook to reinvent himself at three. And - even if Burns works out (I agree he should be tried) that second opener is a problem.

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Maybe it's time to shift Cook down to 3? Get two new openers in?

Burns
???
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Buttler
Stokes

Looks a heck of a lot more solid....

Better than what they've got , anyway.  Not that it's a high bar to clear...

I'd probably go with  

Burns
.???   Maybe one day Hameed will get his mojo back ? We can hope...
Cook
Root
Stokes
JB
JB. (Those two interchangeable)

Mixes up the rights and lefts.

But it may be too late for Cook to reinvent himself at three. And - even if Burns works out (I agree he should be tried) that second opener is a problem.

Definitely is an issue - Burns is the only one really knocking the door down in County cricket - Hameed has just collapsed completely, and to be honest, will be doing well to earn himself a county contract next season let alone an England call up. There's guys like Gubbins, Davies, Mitchell (Mitchell averaging mid 40's in Div 1 this season, would have the next best "stats") - but none of them scream anything more than a county opener. Other than that you have just the "funky" options like Hales and Roy...

Remarkable movement all day so far...

Fine bowling ; but the amount of "wobble" even after passing the bat today has been surprising. Pant has done well to avoid byes !

Didn't look initially like one of those "hoop it round corners" days starting in sunshine and all. Kohli must have picked one of those "magic" balls all swing bowlers love to get their hands on...

Hope they've got another one in the box for when England have to choose

83/5 - surprised Ashwin isn't bowling, to be honest.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Maybe it's time to shift Cook down to 3? Get two new openers in?

Burns
???
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Buttler
Stokes

Looks a heck of a lot more solid....

Better than what they've got , anyway.  Not that it's a high bar to clear...

I'd probably go with  

Burns
.???   Maybe one day Hameed will get his mojo back ? We can hope...
Cook
Root
Stokes
JB
JB. (Those two interchangeable)

Mixes up the rights and lefts.

But it may be too late for Cook to reinvent himself at three. And - even if Burns works out (I agree he should be tried) that second opener is a problem.

Definitely is an issue - Burns is the only one really knocking the door down in County cricket - Hameed has just collapsed completely, and to be honest, will be doing well to earn himself a county contract next season let alone an England call up. There's guys like Gubbins, Davies, Mitchell (Mitchell averaging mid 40's in Div 1 this season, would have the next best "stats") - but none of them scream anything more than a county opener. Other than that you have just the "funky" options like Hales and Roy...

A haunted position , isn't t ? Bizarre to think of going back to Hales but he couldn't be worse , could he ? I've never seen Mitchell : have you had a sight of him , Olly ? Opinion ?

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Maybe it's time to shift Cook down to 3? Get two new openers in?

Burns
???
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Buttler
Stokes

Looks a heck of a lot more solid....

Better than what they've got , anyway.  Not that it's a high bar to clear...

I'd probably go with  

Burns
.???   Maybe one day Hameed will get his mojo back ? We can hope...
Cook
Root
Stokes
JB
JB. (Those two interchangeable)

Mixes up the rights and lefts.

But it may be too late for Cook to reinvent himself at three. And - even if Burns works out (I agree he should be tried) that second opener is a problem.

Definitely is an issue - Burns is the only one really knocking the door down in County cricket - Hameed has just collapsed completely, and to be honest, will be doing well to earn himself a county contract next season let alone an England call up. There's guys like Gubbins, Davies, Mitchell (Mitchell averaging mid 40's in Div 1 this season, would have the next best "stats") - but none of them scream anything more than a county opener. Other than that you have just the "funky" options like Hales and Roy...

A haunted position , isn't t ? Bizarre to think of going back to Hales but he couldn't be worse , could he ? I've never seen Mitchell : have you had a sight of him , Olly ? Opinion ?

Not seen him much in the longer format Alfie - only the pajama stuff. Young Mat will have though, I'll put out a call to him for some #analysis

Going back to Hales couldn't be worse, and actually even Stoneman was doing better than Jennings - what we'd give for getting out for 30 most innings now!

Oh forget Ashwin, another corker from Shami this series. Stokes wastes a review. He had looked ok in this innings but, like Root, he overbalanced on a good delivery.

India batting by tea?

well the pitch is not as seaming as the scoreline would suggest.....juts that Indians have bowled very well.....seam and swing at high 80s speed
and more important Eng has not adapted well...yet

India have to be careful to not let the curran guy get away this time.....polish them for under 120

Stokes gone.

I actually expected that to be going over the stumps - think Stokes did too , hence the referral. But not according to the hawk eye...

Need a Sam Curran special now

outfield is remarkably slow ...taken 30 runs off Eng score so far

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:12:07 and only 12 overs bowled...that is absymal

36 overs in the opening three hours! Might only get 75-80 in today at this rate.

Another good reason to bring in Ashwin.

alfie wrote:Completely disagree with Goose re the batting order.

Asking Root to bat at three might have seemed like a good idea. But the figures say it isn't. Frankly having Vince at 3 and Root at 4 was producing more runs than the current set up.
Bat Bairstow at six if you must (not much difference whether he or Buttler occupy those two spots) but while I would love to be proved wrong I am reasonably certain neither of them will make a success of four.  Square pegs in round holes...

Trouble is while they keep messing about like this they'll never develop a young player who might fit in the top order.

Vince was a square peg. Pope was a square peg. Moeen was a square peg. Ducket was a square peg.
The likes of Stoneman, Jennings etc simply not good enough.

Its not like they haven't tried other players up the order.

Root etc may not have been helped by being put up there but they are there to give others a chance to play in the positions they should ( Stokes etc). Most of the solutions offered are to put wholly unsuitable players in as openers (as per Pope at 4 which was just unfair on him).

Not everyone cant play at 6 and 7. Certainly not Bairstow when theres such a paucity of options. You just cant keep hiding your best batsmen down the order. Its notable that everyone is doing well at 7/8 ...so whilst you could argue that Bairstows been broken by being moved up the order we care currently seeing Moeen getting away with murder there and Butler prior to him making good runs there.

The players they have after Bairstow Root (and a functional Cook) are just not good enough to be lead batsmen. None of them have managed to average over 35 regardless of what positions they are played in, most under 30.

That said I did heavily advocate for Burns at 2/3 in this series. As it is for this game because they wanted to hedge their bets in regards to Stokes' bowling that's just not been possible. And ideally yes Root 4, Bairstow 5 .... but its a struggle to achieve that they want (need) Buttler Stokes and Moeen in the side as utilities without creating bigger problems than asking Root to bat well.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Maybe it's time to shift Cook down to 3? Get two new openers in?

Burns
???
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Buttler
Stokes

Looks a heck of a lot more solid....

Better than what they've got , anyway.  Not that it's a high bar to clear...

I'd probably go with  

Burns
.???   Maybe one day Hameed will get his mojo back ? We can hope...
Cook
Root
Stokes
JB
JB. (Those two interchangeable)

Mixes up the rights and lefts.

But it may be too late for Cook to reinvent himself at three. And - even if Burns works out (I agree he should be tried) that second opener is a problem.

Definitely is an issue - Burns is the only one really knocking the door down in County cricket - Hameed has just collapsed completely, and to be honest, will be doing well to earn himself a county contract next season let alone an England call up. There's guys like Gubbins, Davies, Mitchell (Mitchell averaging mid 40's in Div 1 this season, would have the next best "stats") - but none of them scream anything more than a county opener. Other than that you have just the "funky" options like Hales and Roy...

A haunted position , isn't t ? Bizarre to think of going back to Hales but he couldn't be worse , could he ? I've never seen Mitchell : have you had a sight of him , Olly ? Opinion ?

Not seen him much in the longer format Alfie - only the pajama stuff. Young Mat will have though, I'll put out a call to him for some #analysis

Going back to Hales couldn't be worse, and actually even Stoneman was doing better than Jennings - what we'd give for getting out for 30 most innings now!

Hales hasn't played first class cricket in a year (and only T20 since June). (cough Rashid cough Buttler cough) If he was he might be able to make a case, but he did average 27 over 11 tests.
Stonemans having a pretty mediocre season (Although is out performing Burns in the current game) ...but hardly a long term solution and another left hander. Also averaged 27 in 11 tests.

The scary thing is both of them have better test records than Jennings. This is his 11th test, surely this or the next has to be his last unless he does something remarkable.

England cross 100! Ali is up to 14*, pretty much every one of those has been edged through the cordon.

kohli should bring bumrah in and attack curran and ali in ribs

Curran counter-attacking. He won't last long, but how much damage can he do until his inevitable fall?

Ah we aren't going to agree in this , Goose...

A lot of what you say makes sense ; but I'd challenge the notion that they need all those "utilities" ...there are several players who can play at six to eight : ideally , pick the ones who are best in their jobs and most reliable in those spots ; rather than trying to shoehorn them all in. Ultimately , it won't be enough until you fix the top three ; but it would likely be better than the current mess. At least players would be a bit more confident , knowing what was expected of them and not being moved all over the place ...and in fairness , injuries have helped to muddy the waters this year.

Good to see they've passed 111... Young Sam thriving so far with his aggressive approach . Wonder how long he can get away with it...

Specificaly for thsi test they needed those utiltiy players Aflie because of the injury concerns. Prior to Stokes I wouldve heavily advocated Burns in at 3 and Moeen for Rashid. And Im by no means saying its an ideal thing, England themselves said this line up is forced rather than by choice. But senior players need the characther to step up when required and take responsibility, like Smith for Australia who was a lower middle order batsman (and before that utility spinner) promoted to 3 to cover a gaping hole.

And yes ...it looks like Curran should be the new opener. Great controlled attacking play, unlike Moeen whos edging everything and living on a prayer. Hes shown a lot of charachter and potential so far in his career, but sadly doesnt solve any of Englands big problems when everyones fit.

Bumrah has just bowled the inswinger which he got Jennings out with to both Moeen and Curran...thankfully both played it a lot better than Jennings did!

Credit to Moeen and Curran for their knocks but precious else that England's batting can be remotely satisfied with. Winning the toss and batting on what was described as a great batting strip and be reduced to 80 odd for 6 says it all. England's batting at its lowest ebb for some time.

Gooseberry wrote:Specificaly for thsi test they needed those utiltiy players Aflie because of the injury concerns. Prior to Stokes I wouldve heavily advocated Burns in at 3 and Moeen for Rashid. And Im by no means saying its an ideal thing, England themselves said this line up is forced rather than by choice. But senior players need the characther to step up when required and take responsibility, like Smith for Australia who was a lower middle order batsman (and before that utility spinner) promoted to 3 to cover a gaping hole.

And yes ...it looks like Curran should be the new opener. Great controlled attacking play, unlike Moeen whos edging everything and living on a prayer. Hes shown a lot of charachter and potential so far in his career, but sadly doesnt solve any of Englands big problems when everyones fit.

Well yes , the injuries didn't help. But I'm not sure they'd have been any worse off playing Vince at three (or Burns , if you like) and leaving out Rashid. If they're bowled out for 150 they won't be worrying about not having six bowlers...

Curran is ticking all the boxes so far. Remains to be seen how he will fare in Sri Lanka ; but considering even Anderson can't play forever I think he's clearly one for the future.

We all agree the top three is the problem anyway. Unfortunately none of us have a magic wand ...

CaledonianCraig wrote:Credit to Moeen and Curran for their knocks but precious else that England's batting can be remotely satisfied with. Winning the toss and batting on what was described as a great batting strip and be reduced to 80 odd for 6 says it all. England's batting at its lowest ebb for some time.

Yes has been pretty dire , Craig. Must credit some excellent Indian bowling though...and there has been plenty of movement for the bowlers all day.

Good effort by these two : fifty stand has at least put the score past the truly awful and into the just fairly embarrassing category...139/6 at tea and a lot of overs to be bowled after...

Think I will leave the night watch to you fellows and hope to wake up to see a hundred each for Sam and Mo

Biggest partnership of the innings so far, which isn't that surprising. Curran has batted well, but it's a wonder Ali has survived this far!

England probably looking at 200, maybe 250 with a bit of luck, but either of those totals are well short of par.

Not a lot of turn in evidence, so a good thing England didn't pick two spinners...oh, yeah.

Under the circumstances ....Eng's session

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Credit to Moeen and Curran for their knocks but precious else that England's batting can be remotely satisfied with. Winning the toss and batting on what was described as a great batting strip and be reduced to 80 odd for 6 says it all. England's batting at its lowest ebb for some time.

Yes has been pretty dire , Craig.  Must credit some excellent Indian bowling though...and there has been plenty of movement for the bowlers all day.

Good effort by these two : fifty stand has at least put the score past the truly awful and into the just fairly embarrassing category...139/6 at tea and a lot of overs to be bowled after...

Think I will leave the night watch to you fellows and hope to wake up to see a hundred each for Sam and Mo  

Oh for sure this India pace attack has come alive in the last couple of Tests. Pace bowling giving England's batsmen a taste of thee medicine often handed out to Anderson and Broad in English conditions. England are now in damage limitation mode. At 80 odd for 6 they would have been delighted to reach 200 and they may just reach that. However, that will be about 200 runs shy of what they should have reached on a good batting strip.

I don't understand Why it happens that when best Test batsmen are unable to score, the tail comes and score runs. May be because the tail tries to drive more than the top order, or they are lucky. If the former is the case why top orders are resistant from driving. Curan has played some very good shots against the same attack that has outplayed Cook, Root, and others.

Has been following the game on and off, but coming in here only now. Fine morning session for India, the quicks all chipping in pretty well. They didn't let Buttler doo too much damage after he was dropped, and Ben Stokes' stoic effort didn't develop into something substantive. Sam Curran though, inflicting significant damage on the Indians to turn the 2nd session with Moeen somehow hanging around.