The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

Anywho

Fox Sports have revealed that key Wallabies will be rested during Super Rugby to ensure they are fresh for the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan.

A handshake agreement has reportedly been reached between the national body Rugby Australia and the four Australia-based Super Rugby franchises, with details yet to be finalised.


The same tactic was employed by New Zealand franchises last year, with All Blacks requires to sit out two matches and attend camps throughout the season.

Sooooo, it seems the Pro14 is a bit of a trend setter with the Kiwis, English and now the Aussies trying to imitate

No 7&1/2 wrote:So let's not pretend it's easy to enforce a salary cap or that all clubs who seem to aren't actually cheating it.

What do you know of the legality of external payments with regards to how DNACG view that in rugby, especially in the light of many rugby players having more than one employer?

The Great Aukster wrote:

Thanks for the data Marty.

It shows there is only a 46% correlation between budget and finishing position.

No, it shows that you don't understand what the budgets are used for and you've ignored the French salary cap.

TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

Jesus wept. There's financial ignorance and then there's this.

A agree rugby fan. There's a million ways to get round a cap.

No 7&1/2 wrote:A agree rugby fan. There's a million ways to get round a cap.

Do you still think I'm the poster called PhilBB?

No 7&1/2 wrote:A agree rugby fan. There's a million ways to get round a cap.

Have you told the DNACG this? They'd be interested in your take.

As would Altrad, as DNACG just fined his club.

Maybe they should have employed you to cook their books, as you seem to think it's so easy.

marty2086 wrote:Anywho

Fox Sports have revealed that key Wallabies will be rested during Super Rugby to ensure they are fresh for the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan.

A handshake agreement has reportedly been reached between the national body Rugby Australia and the four Australia-based Super Rugby franchises, with details yet to be finalised.


The same tactic was employed by New Zealand franchises last year, with All Blacks requires to sit out two matches and attend camps throughout the season.

Sooooo, it seems the Pro14 is a bit of a trend setter with the Kiwis, English and now the Aussies trying to imitate

But they are different, they are not self loathing oppressed Celts who feel what they are told about themselves must be true after years of oppression.

Sadly for some who are still under the thumb "mentally" the 3 Celtic Nations have used the Pro10/12/14 to be treated as a equal. For the English and French on the field, for the SH with our money. Yes things aren't perfect but our teams are the equal of any one else. The 90s are in the past and we don't want them back (unless your team is stuck in the 90s then as a fan I guess they are stuck there too).

Just extremely similar or identical views I'm sure rugby.
I'll forward them contact numbers for bath and saracens.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just extremely similar or identical views I'm sure rugby.

So do you think I am the poster PhilBB? Yes or No.

Don't know.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Don't know.

Best to stop with the childish inferences then eh?

You got a problem with me - ask the moderators to deal with it.

That was honestly just a mistake. So similar in your posts.

So on reflection that response is to Phil. Not rugby fan who is completely different....
No. Phil I've not spoken to them. As I said to the wrong person apparently I'll forward them bath and saracens numbers.

LordDowlais wrote:
Something has to be done because the PRO14 has been devalued and kept potential spectators away over the past 24 hours.

No wonder it’s still viewed as a second-rate competition by many rugby followers across the border in England.

Anyone watching the Gallaghers Premiership today?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Something has to be done because the PRO14 has been devalued and kept potential spectators away over the past 24 hours.

No wonder it’s still viewed as a second-rate competition by many rugby followers across the border in England.

Anyone watching the Gallaghers Premiership today?

I was.

What the hell else would be on?

Looking forward to the Ireland v New Zealand game next weekend though.

SecretFly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Something has to be done because the PRO14 has been devalued and kept potential spectators away over the past 24 hours.

No wonder it’s still viewed as a second-rate competition by many rugby followers across the border in England.

Anyone watching the Gallaghers Premiership today?

I was.  

What the hell else would be on?

Looking forward to the Ireland v New Zealand game next weekend though.

Ooh, give me a shout if you get your hands on some tickets for that one. I’ll pay top dollar

Anyway, Pro14. Everybody laughs at it. A belly of fancy tries from Wales and a hard as diamond ruthlessly physical battle by Ireland. You don't learn that kind of stuff within the Pro14.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Something has to be done because the PRO14 has been devalued and kept potential spectators away over the past 24 hours.

No wonder it’s still viewed as a second-rate competition by many rugby followers across the border in England.

Anyone watching the Gallaghers Premiership today?

Why are you quoting me as saying this ?

I am just passing the message on.

Also, as the English league has so many teams, their squads are not as depleted when it comes to internationals.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Something has to be done because the PRO14 has been devalued and kept potential spectators away over the past 24 hours.

No wonder it’s still viewed as a second-rate competition by many rugby followers across the border in England.

Anyone watching the Gallaghers Premiership today?

Why are you quoting me as saying this ?

I am just passing the message on.

Also, as the English league has so many teams, their squads are not as depleted when it comes to internationals.

Yes, because you've never said such things in the past

The squads aren't as depleted yet Saracens had to bring Chris Wyles out of retirement and were without something like 10 players through test duty, Bath 8/9 players missing, Exeter another 9. So not as depleted yet teams were missing many of their first XV yet somehow the product isn't devalued?

Marty, two fixtures had 66 players missing between them in the Pro14. That's two matches, without first teamers, and reserves.

You cannot compare that to one or two games in the English league missing 8 or 9 players, well you can, but that will prove my point more than yours.

Anyway, I am not getting dragged into this with you, members like you is why I try and give this place a wide berth these days.

Yup. Fewer internationals in teams will attract the fans. Not sure it's any English fans viewing pro 14 as send rate though. Certainly on here it's just some Welsh fans.

LordDowlais wrote:Marty, two fixtures had 66 players missing between them in the Pro14. That's two matches, without first teamers, and reserves.

You cannot compare that to one or two games in the English league missing 8 or 9 players, well you can, but that will prove my point more than yours.

Anyway, I am not getting dragged into this with you, members like you is why I try and give this place a wide berth these days.

Except the question was somehow the product isn't devalued? Are you saying not having the biggest stars available doesn't devalue the product and Saracens are just as attractive as product/brand without Farrell/Vunipolas/Itoje/Kruis/George/Williams?

Lord Wales are 3rd in the World Rankings, thank the Pro14 for that no world cup needed.

I think this whole debate has become very clouded - like someone threw muck in the drinking water and stirred. I don't really see the bottom of the bucket no more and amn't interested in drinkin' no more.

I think the fact that nearly every team needs to rotate a lot during the course of a season is the a big factor why we are seeing all 4 NH countries improving their depth at international level. The scarlets can't play their Welsh internationals each week, so the next guys off the rank get regular gametime, which makes them better, improving depth, putting pressure on the starters, driving standards. Before you know it, you have 2 international standard players, rather than just one in a position. Yes, Rodney Parade won't get to see Sexton, but they'll see Ross Byrne, the next Sexton, run the show and put 50 on them.

the-goon wrote: Yes, Rodney Parade won't get to see Sexton, but they'll see Ross Byrne, the next Sexton, run the show and put 50 on them.

Stop it, you! I'll report you to the Angst Police for a good beating!

the-goon wrote:I think the fact that nearly every team needs to rotate a lot during the course of a season is the a big factor why we are seeing all 4 NH countries improving their depth at international level. The scarlets can't play their Welsh internationals each week, so the next guys off the rank get regular gametime, which makes them better, improving depth, putting pressure on the starters, driving standards. Before you know it, you have 2 international standard players, rather than just one in a position. Yes, Rodney Parade won't get to see Sexton, but they'll see Ross Byrne, the next Sexton, run the show and put 50 on them.

That theory only works if the young players coming through are good enough.

Scotland aren't improving their depth at international level, for example.

PhilBB wrote:

the-goon wrote:I think the fact that nearly every team needs to rotate a lot during the course of a season is the a big factor why we are seeing all 4 NH countries improving their depth at international level. The scarlets can't play their Welsh internationals each week, so the next guys off the rank get regular gametime, which makes them better, improving depth, putting pressure on the starters, driving standards. Before you know it, you have 2 international standard players, rather than just one in a position. Yes, Rodney Parade won't get to see Sexton, but they'll see Ross Byrne, the next Sexton, run the show and put 50 on them.

That theory only works if the young players coming through are good enough.

Scotland aren't improving their depth at international level, for example.

So they are obligated to give their current Internationals to Pro14 rather than saving them for International. The less talent you have the more you have to play them in Pro14.

Cruel League/Competition.

You don't know if you don't give them a chance. Players need to be managed, succession needs to managed. Rugby isn't football, where players can play 7/8 games per month; rugby players can play prob 3 max, month in month out. They need to be managed and protected.

the-goon wrote:You don't know if you don't give them a chance. Players need to be managed, succession needs to managed. Rugby isn't football, where players can play 7/8 games per month; rugby players can play prob 3 max, month in month out. They need to be managed and protected.

Of course you know before giving them a chance. That's a daft thing to claim.

And it's completely unrelated to the need for players to be rested.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

the-goon wrote:I think the fact that nearly every team needs to rotate a lot during the course of a season is the a big factor why we are seeing all 4 NH countries improving their depth at international level. The scarlets can't play their Welsh internationals each week, so the next guys off the rank get regular gametime, which makes them better, improving depth, putting pressure on the starters, driving standards. Before you know it, you have 2 international standard players, rather than just one in a position. Yes, Rodney Parade won't get to see Sexton, but they'll see Ross Byrne, the next Sexton, run the show and put 50 on them.

That theory only works if the young players coming through are good enough.

Scotland aren't improving their depth at international level, for example.

So they are obligated to give their current Internationals to Pro14 rather than saving them for International.  The less talent you have the more you have to play them in Pro14.

Cruel League/Competition.

Wisdom, compassion, and courage are the three universally recognised moral qualities of men.

the-goon wrote:I think the fact that nearly every team needs to rotate a lot during the course of a season is the a big factor why we are seeing all 4 NH countries improving their depth at international level. The scarlets can't play their Welsh internationals each week, so the next guys off the rank get regular gametime, which makes them better, improving depth, putting pressure on the starters, driving standards. Before you know it, you have 2 international standard players, rather than just one in a position. Yes, Rodney Parade won't get to see Sexton, but they'll see Ross Byrne, the next Sexton, run the show and put 50 on them.

That's exactly it, Ulster had to bring in Stockdale to cover Trimble and Bowe and now look at it. Leinster have at least 2 internationals for every position except lock and 9

marty2086 wrote:

the-goon wrote:I think the fact that nearly every team needs to rotate a lot during the course of a season is the a big factor why we are seeing all 4 NH countries improving their depth at international level. The scarlets can't play their Welsh internationals each week, so the next guys off the rank get regular gametime, which makes them better, improving depth, putting pressure on the starters, driving standards. Before you know it, you have 2 international standard players, rather than just one in a position. Yes, Rodney Parade won't get to see Sexton, but they'll see Ross Byrne, the next Sexton, run the show and put 50 on them.

That's exactly it, Ulster had to bring in Stockdale to cover Trimble and Bowe and now look at it. Leinster have at least 2 internationals for every position except lock and 9

Which, of course, only works if the replacements are good enough.

If you want to know what it looks like if the replacements are not good enough then look at the Dragons. Or Zebre.

This is just basic logic.

The Dragons have very few Internationals, they aren't affected as much by call ups. Their frontline players will play more pro 14 than those of the Scarlets. Same goes for Connacht.

the-goon wrote:The Dragons have very few Internationals, they aren't affected as much by call ups. Their frontline players will play more pro 14 than those of the Scarlets. Same goes for Connacht.

The number of internationals is irrelevant. The discussion is regarding the quality of their replacements.

If those replacements are not good enough to start with (and it's very easy to tell if they will be or not) then results suffer.

The whole "it gives new players a chance to show their value" theory only works if that value is sufficient. If the replacements are crap then, by definition, the theory is also crap.

PhilBB wrote:

Wisdom, compassion, and courage are the three universally recognised moral qualities of men.

True: Thus why many are relinquishing the term in preference for Transgenderism. Thus why the world is going bat schidt crazy.
It's an easier life not being a man -thus my momma told me years ago, when she was still my dad.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Wisdom, compassion, and courage are the three universally recognised moral qualities of men.

True: Thus why many are relinquishing the term in preference for Transgenderism.  Thus why the world is going bat schidt crazy.
It's an easier life not being a man -thus my momma told me years ago, when she was still my dad.

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself

PhilBB wrote:

the-goon wrote:The Dragons have very few Internationals, they aren't affected as much by call ups. Their frontline players will play more pro 14 than those of the Scarlets. Same goes for Connacht.

The number of internationals is irrelevant. The discussion is regarding the quality of their replacements.

If those replacements are not good enough to start with (and it's very easy to tell if they will be or not) then results suffer.

The whole "it gives new players a chance to show their value" theory only works if that value is sufficient. If the replacements are crap then, by definition, the theory is also crap.

If the theory is that the above theory is crap then you have nothing that is sustainable (on a theoretical basis) and you give yourself over to the notion that all Leagues should exist on a 'Buy-what-you-need' basis.  

And that brings us back to the age old argument in this place.  Which brand of 'League', which Nationwide set-up is most moral and vibrant?  The French 'Buy talent' Private Club system or the Irish Union control 'nurture' system?

That's not a question by the way - it's just rhetorical.  We've all heard all the answers before over the years in 606 'Celtic League' threads. It's a circular discussion that goes nowhere fast.

SecretFly wrote:

If the theory is that the above theory is crap then you have nothing that is sustainable

Nope. That's dumb thinking as you've missed out the steps a player goes through before getting into the first XV of a pro rugby team.

In order to be "good enough" to step up, the player has to have excelled at the next standard down. That's why the Irish have done so well with their A team set up and, below that, the over reliance on the excellent Leinster Academy set up.

We are a long way behind that in Wales as we wasted years placating village clubs. The Scots haven't even got their house in order on any kind of set up below the professional as they are making their mistakes with the Super 6 nonsense.

SecretFly wrote:Which brand of 'League', which Nationwide set-up is most moral and vibrant?  The French 'Buy talent' Private Club system or the Irish Union control 'nurture' system?

Plus, of course, this part of your post is tremendously stupid. Firstly, morals have nothing to do with this issue. Secondly, the JIFF structure in France makes the "buy talent" line extremely stupid, even more so when it is emanating from a country that favours "project players" with the sole aim of making that player qualify for the national team. Thirdly, the French have 26+ professional teams, Ireland 4, so it's obvious that 26 mouths need more feeding than do 4.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Which brand of 'League', which Nationwide set-up is most moral and vibrant?  The French 'Buy talent' Private Club system or the Irish Union control 'nurture' system?

Plus, of course, this part of your post is tremendously stupid. Firstly, morals have nothing to do with this issue. Secondly, the JIFF structure in France makes the "buy talent" line extremely stupid, even more so when it is emanating from a country that favours "project players" with the sole aim of making that player qualify for the national team. Thirdly, the French have 26+ professional teams, Ireland 4, so it's obvious that 26 mouths need more feeding than do 4.

Fourtly, you're talking from the wrong end of your being.

If, as you've endlessly claimed over a good number of years now, that one particular system (Irish/Union owned) is not right for CLUB/Privately owned and run Leagues then that is a moral distinction you are making.  If one is not the right method, the other one is.  You've stated often/alluded to/hinted that the Provinces should be released from Union control to create a more equitable League structure.  You make it a moral point as you say one system can't satisfactorily coexist with another system in a common League - and you've put your cards on the table many times in declaring your allegiance to the Private self-made man owner model.

You can't genuflect before the Leinster academy structure  and then ridicule my allusion to 'buy talent'.  If you don't have a sustainable and vibrant academy structure - then you're forced to buy to sustain quality of presence in a League - or you fail.

The French have 26+ professional teams?  So the theory is that they need to 'buy talent' more than Ireland requires to buy talent because they have more teams?  France also has a population of 67million.
So do the maths.  They have more population per team than Ireland have when you divide up all your 26 pluses and 4s.  So no real excuses down that route either.

It will be interesting to see how all these super kids allegedly coming out of Blackrock get on if/once Schmidt and Lancaster move on.
Exposure to Test standards whilst in familiar and consistent team mate combinations is a fantastic opportunity for players, that is only achievable within an elite managed structure.
Ireland only really use two of their trials sides as the other two have never remotely dominated national selection in the professional era and don't look like doing so in the medium term future either.
The fact that the Leinster Pro14 side are competitive with third and fourth choice players in their 60 player squad either reflects well on their management or standards in that league. I don't watch Pro14 games but suspect it is a little of both.

The whole internal/external recruitment can be viewed either way when a player joins a team. It can be 'meritocratic but takes money' or it can be 'you're not one of us- no thanks' but cheap. Pros and cons to both.

At least the project player approach appears to be consigned to history or at least becomes more difficult, although ironically two of Ireland's best players last Saturday came through that route.

Why can't people accept that the pro14 is based more on wider squads than other leagues? There's no way around that apart from slashing the number of games in it.


It's purely down to physics. Players can only play a number of games per season. Would you rather have less rugby?

SecretFly wrote:

If, as you've endlessly claimed over a good number of years now, that one particular system (Irish/Union owned) is not right for CLUB/Privately owned and run Leagues then that is a moral distinction you are making.  If one is not the right method, the other one is.  You've stated often/alluded to/hinted that the Provinces should be released from Union control to create a more equitable League structure.  You make it a moral point as you say one system can't satisfactorily coexist with another system in a common League - and you've put your cards on the table many times in declaring your allegiance to the Private self-made man owner model.

You can't genuflect before the Leinster academy structure  and then ridicule my allusion to 'buy talent'.  If you don't have a sustainable and vibrant academy structure - then you're forced to buy to sustain quality of presence in a League - or you fail.  

The French have 26+ professional teams?  So the theory is that they need to 'buy talent' more than Ireland requires to buy talent because they have more teams?  France also has a population of 67million.
So do the maths.  They have more population per team than Ireland have when you divide up all your 26 pluses and 4s.  So no real excuses down that route either.

Jesus wept. If that's the level of your thinking then no wonder you try to be funny instead of writing serious stuff.

Morality has nothing to do with a fair and equal commercial competition. It's business, not the bloody Catholic church.

Interesting point about population, of course. Interesting because it shows your pig ignorance of where rugby is popular in France.

As noted, go back to trying to be funny because you only expose your lack of basic thinking when you try to paint your own opinion.

Morality. Jesus wept.

Yes, it's not like the French teams effectively have a home and away team in the TOP 14. Premiership teams also rotate heavily as well (see Bath vs Saracens). The Pro 14 has a higher % of current internationals, this means they will have front line players away more. If you want to see frontline players play in the Pro 14 all the time, reduce the games they play across the board (intl, Europe and Pro 14), or flog them to death. I think what we have is better than the above 2 options.

the-goon wrote:Yes, it's not like the French teams effectively have a home and away team in the TOP 14. Premiership teams also rotate heavily as well (see Bath vs Saracens). The Pro 14 has a higher % of current internationals, this means they will have front line players away more. If you want to see frontline players play in the Pro 14 all the time, reduce the games they play across the board (intl, Europe and Pro 14), or flog them to death. I think what we have is better than the above 2 options.

If it goes to 16 teams next season / season after, then expect to see fewer games.

PhilBB wrote:

the-goon wrote:Yes, it's not like the French teams effectively have a home and away team in the TOP 14. Premiership teams also rotate heavily as well (see Bath vs Saracens). The Pro 14 has a higher % of current internationals, this means they will have front line players away more. If you want to see frontline players play in the Pro 14 all the time, reduce the games they play across the board (intl, Europe and Pro 14), or flog them to death. I think what we have is better than the above 2 options.

If it goes to 16 teams next season / season after, then expect to see fewer games.

If the league goes to 16 I would like to see to 8 team self contained conference.
Either the Pro14 is doing it's job or it's not. From a Welsh point of view surely the Pro14 is doing great. As the pro 10/12/14 has got stronger so has Wales. Gone are the dark days of the 90s. Over the last 10 years when have Wales had injuries where there was no one to cover because the replacements were rubbish. The fact that players want to come back to the league says they like it.

Brendan wrote:From a Welsh point of view surely the Pro14 is doing great.  As the pro 10/12/14 has got stronger so has Wales.  Gone are the dark days of the 90s.  Over the last 10 years when have Wales had injuries where there was no one to cover because the replacements were rubbish. The fact that players want to come back to the league says they like it.

That's wonderfully naive in every sense.

When the Welsh pro teams cut their budgets to £3.5m, there was another 80s and 90s style exodus from Wales. Now that the pro teams are spending again (benefactor money), they have wage bills that are able to keep players in Wales and to bring them back.

The issue of money is key here. Everybody in any position of responsibility within the pro game in Wales knows that our teams would be better off in the English system - better rugby, better financially, better for supporters and better for sponsors. But that ship has sailed. Nobody in their right mind would choose to fly for away games when there are teams within a 2 hour bus journey.

So we're in "next best" land. And the PrO'14 is definitely next best. Team Wales has got stronger because a) Roger Lewis was booted out b) the academies were then signed over to the Pro Teams and away from the WRU c) the benefactors have spent more. The players just happen to be playing PrO'14 rugby.

If you want that point underlined, Sexton didn't get on the World Player of the Year list because he played 6 or 7 PrO'14 games last season, did he?

Is it naive because you don't like what I said or any point you would like to expand on.

So in your world that is not naive the English and Welsh would have joined forces for all age grades or just the top teams in Wales at the time.  Judging by the debt some clubs carried at the time how many of them would have gone the way of Richmond broken by debt.

Then we have the issue of access to players.  Do we think the PRL would accept less from the WRU than the RFU for the same access.  This money would then be shared over all clubs so the majority of the money from the WRU would have gone to English Clubs.  There also would be no fourth AI which would have resulted in an even poorer WRU (they might not even have afforded to build their money generating stadium).

Then it comes to fans.  Where would all these fans have come from.  We are always told that people won't support the Regions because they represent the rival team.  Under your suggestion it would most definitely be the rival.  Add in that even the Welsh derbies can be under 10k why would they get over this for other teams that are further away.  Unless you are saying the hatred of the English is more powerful than the love of their team.

Then we come to wages and the self imposed salary cap.  This was done to keep costs down.  Are you saying in your world the Benefactors would of had more money to spend on their teams on top of what they brought in.  Our do you honestly believe they could have the fan base with the same disposable income as Leicester or Northampton (The more well off area compared to Wales)

Finally player welfare and games during the international windows.  I think in order to play 16 team league it would have been nearly every week.  So less stars for more rounds.

Going off Euro results over the following years after 5 years how many teams would be left in the top division.  Most likely there would have been a two up two down each season.

Finally players being picked for international duty.  Would it be league players only (even though they could all be at English Clubs). Why would players that were 50/50 on picking Wales or England pick Wales if they were playing at say waps. Or would there be no rules so players could go to France.

I look forward to my naive opinions being exposed