The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

Also world player of the year is only based on international performances. So you are right Sexton's Pro14 or Euro games have no part in it.

Brendan wrote:
So in your world that is not naive the English and Welsh would have joined forces for all age grades or just the top teams in Wales at the time.  Judging by the debt some clubs carried at the time how many of them would have gone the way of Richmond broken by debt.

I know this is a common mistake but let me just explain it to you one more time:

There is nothing wrong with carrying debt. Debt only becomes a problem when a) it cannot be serviced and then b) it gets called in. When debt is owed to the actual owners of the business, it's not real debt. It's just an accounting figure. More often than not, that debt gets written off or converted to equity when it is tax efficient to do so.

Brendan wrote:Also world player of the year is only based on international performances.  So you are right Sexton's Pro14 or Euro games have no part in it.

You obviously missed the point that the PrO'14 games didn't PREPARE him for the international games.

Jesus wept.

Brendan wrote:
Then we have the issue of access to players.  Do we think the PRL would accept less from the WRU than the RFU for the same access.  This money would then be shared over all clubs so the majority of the money from the WRU would have gone to English Clubs.  There also would be no fourth AI which would have resulted in an even poorer WRU (they might not even have afforded to build their money generating stadium).

Hey, Genius, have a think if there's a model that these kind of things could follow. You know, let's call that model the PrO'shambles.

You know, where the WRU deal with PRW and the RFU deal with PRL.

And you're forgetting that England play 4 AIs.

You're not really equipped for this, are you?

Brendan wrote:
Then it comes to fans.  Where would all these fans have come from.  We are always told that people won't support the Regions because they represent the rival team.  Under your suggestion it would most definitely be the rival.  Add in that even the Welsh derbies can be under 10k why would they get over this for other teams that are further away.  Unless you are saying the hatred of the English is more powerful than the love of their team.

Whoever is telling you that about support is treating you like a numpty. The crowds in Wales are the biggest per population in the league. You also seem pig ignorant of something called "away fans".

https://twitter.com/cardiff_blues/status/1065939925982478336

Brendan wrote:
Then we come to wages and the self imposed salary cap.  This was done to keep costs down.  Are you saying in your world the Benefactors would of had more money to spend on their teams on top of what they brought in.  Our do you honestly believe they could have the fan base with the same disposable income as Leicester or Northampton (The more well off area compared to Wales)

I'm not sure what any of that means.

Are you on about the self imposed Welsh salary cap of a few years ago or the PRL salary cap?

"Would of had"? Do you mean would have had?

Welsh teams don't have the fan base with the same disposable income as Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leinster, Ulster and Munster so I've even less idea as to why you're mentioning that.

What are you on about?

Brendan wrote:
Finally player welfare and games during the international windows.  I think in order to play 16 team league it would have been nearly every week.  So less stars for more rounds.

Going off Euro results over the following years after 5 years how many teams would be left in the top division.  Most likely there would have been a two up two down each season.

Finally players being picked for international duty.  Would it be league players only (even though they could all be at English Clubs).  Why would players that were 50/50 on picking Wales or England pick Wales if they were playing at say waps. Or would there be no rules so players could go to France.

I look forward to my naive opinions being exposed

Why have you assumed a 16 team league? Why are you assuming promotion and relegation? Why would players be at English clubs?

Why would players who were 50/50 pick Wales? I don't know. You'd be better off asking Jonah Holmes than me.

I'm glad that I've met your criteria of exposing your opinions. Comfortably.

Christ, I think Phil must have had the mother of all paper cuts in work today. And then got some vinegar in it

?

You just seem extra angry today

The Oracle wrote:You just seem extra angry today

That's not anger, that's pity.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:
So in your world that is not naive the English and Welsh would have joined forces for all age grades or just the top teams in Wales at the time.  Judging by the debt some clubs carried at the time how many of them would have gone the way of Richmond broken by debt.

I know this is a common mistake but let me just explain it to you one more time:

There is nothing wrong with carrying debt. Debt only becomes a problem when a) it cannot be serviced and then b) it gets called in. When debt is owed to the actual owners of the business, it's not real debt. It's just an accounting figure. More often than not, that debt gets written off or converted to equity when it is tax efficient to do so.

The owners of the Welsh regions had to impose a salary cap because they wanted to limit the funds they were spending because they couldn't afford to grow the debt. Did Richmond get fed up with top level club rugby and chose to drop a fair few divions down the club set up. I thought they became insolvent due to their debt and folded. Sure it had nothing to do with the debt they were growing each year as expenses exceeded income. If I was talking about Debt racked up that wasn't a problem I would have used Sarries. Dragon were taken over by the WRU as they had debt issues. If Ponty Debt folded the Warriors how would Ponty have survived by themselves. If you didn't understand the point fine but if you didn't understand the Richmond reference you must not have understood the problems of the 90s that some clubs faced.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:
Then we have the issue of access to players.  Do we think the PRL would accept less from the WRU than the RFU for the same access.  This money would then be shared over all clubs so the majority of the money from the WRU would have gone to English Clubs.  There also would be no fourth AI which would have resulted in an even poorer WRU (they might not even have afforded to build their money generating stadium).

Hey, Genius, have a think if there's a model that these kind of things could follow. You know, let's call that model the PrO'shambles.

You know, where the WRU deal with PRW and the RFU deal with PRL.

And you're forgetting that England play 4 AIs.

You're not really equipped for this, are you?

If Welsh and English clubs had joined together the PRL would have covered all clubs in the top division, possibly the Championship aswell. Now do you honestly think that the Welsh players would only have been at the clubs in Wales. As it is the Regions have problems keeping players from English clubs. So if one body was going to represent all top clubs how would the Welsh have got access to all Welsh players if they only paid the 4 Welsh clubs.

If the Welsh joined the Premiership now don't you think they would have to join the PRL. Do you think the PRL would not demand a much larger fee than currently paid by the WRU and that this money would be shared with all PRL members. Remember Saints got fined because they gave North time off as per his contract because the WRU refused to pay for access for Welsh players.

The RFU pay good money for a 4th AI the WRU don't.

Hmm, this has gone the way of all these threads..................... multi-textured and COMPLEX!

Never a good place to find a solution.



So let's start at the beginning again for it's a very good place to start.



The Future of Pro14 Deconstructed through Hegalian Marxist Substrates in Binary Fusion Analysis.




I'll start and I say Yes - I think it would be a good idea if all project players agreed to it.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:
Then it comes to fans.  Where would all these fans have come from.  We are always told that people won't support the Regions because they represent the rival team.  Under your suggestion it would most definitely be the rival.  Add in that even the Welsh derbies can be under 10k why would they get over this for other teams that are further away.  Unless you are saying the hatred of the English is more powerful than the love of their team.

Whoever is telling you that about support is treating you like a numpty. The crowds in Wales are the biggest per population in the league. You also seem pig ignorant of something called "away fans".

https://twitter.com/cardiff_blues/status/1065939925982478336

So I grew up in a small town of 1000 people. Are you saying that if my town could get it 900 people to watch our team it would mean that the club was getting attendances. Sadly they would only be getting 900. So attendance as a percent of population does mean you will get big crowds. Newcastle and Sale have low attendances because away teams don't bring half the fans to a match. Again can you tell me how many fans you think the away teams would bring or would the home teams have more fans. In Europe are games v English teams much better attended.

As an article I posted before from WOL every region had higher average attendance than their first season in the Celtic league. Welsh club rugby didn't have great attendances except of derbies which in the PRO14 is the Regions best attendance now (though not massive)

Brendan...Phill just yearns for the muck. That's all it is. The B&W (or three dot colour) days were just more nostalgic for the muck and stuff.

Most people when they wipe a tear for the old days, it's usually a sadness that the muck is no more.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:
Then we come to wages and the self imposed salary cap.  This was done to keep costs down.  Are you saying in your world the Benefactors would of had more money to spend on their teams on top of what they brought in.  Our do you honestly believe they could have the fan base with the same disposable income as Leicester or Northampton (The more well off area compared to Wales)

I'm not sure what any of that means.

Are you on about the self imposed Welsh salary cap of a few years ago or the PRL salary cap?

"Would of had"? Do you mean would have had?

Welsh teams don't have the fan base with the same disposable income as Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leinster, Ulster and Munster so I've even less idea as to why you're mentioning that.

What are you on about?

My 10 year old understood it sorry thought it was clear.

Welsh owners agreed a wage cap so that they could reduce costs and not compete against each other to drive up wages. So we know they didn't have money to put into the club. If the Welsh regions joined with the English these owners would still only be able to put in the same money so if they had to impose a self imposed wage cap how could the Regions survive in the Premiership. LI and Worcester never are close to the cap and always close to relegation. The Regions would be the same.

Leicester and Saints are two teams that are nearly self funded. They also are in rich parts of England. They are used as an example of the kind of area a Welsh team would need to be based in to overcome the financial limitions their owners finances. Sadly I don't think that place is in the Wales.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:
Finally player welfare and games during the international windows.  I think in order to play 16 team league it would have been nearly every week.  So less stars for more rounds.

Going off Euro results over the following years after 5 years how many teams would be left in the top division.  Most likely there would have been a two up two down each season.

Finally players being picked for international duty.  Would it be league players only (even though they could all be at English Clubs).  Why would players that were 50/50 on picking Wales or England pick Wales if they were playing at say waps. Or would there be no rules so players could go to France.

I look forward to my naive opinions being exposed

Why have you assumed a 16 team league? Why are you assuming promotion and relegation? Why would players be at English clubs?

Why would players who were 50/50 pick Wales? I don't know. You'd be better off asking Jonah Holmes than me.

I'm glad that I've met your criteria of exposing your opinions. Comfortably.

How many teams would be in the league then.

The WRU pay less than the RFU for player access to the clubs and match fees to the player.

So if you had a player with an English father and Welsh mother you don't think the club would tell the player that "if you choose England we get more money so we can pay you more" and the player would be lured by the match fees. If North at 18 had signed for Saints would he have thought again about picking Wales.

If only we knew if young players who went to France and had a choice of playing for France or a PI team which team they choose.

SecretFly wrote:Brendan...Phill just yearns for the muck.  That's all it is.  The B&W (or three dot colour) days were just more nostalgic for the muck and stuff.

Most people when they wipe a tear for the old days, it's usually a sadness that the muck is no more.

I know but it's Monday and the AIs are over so don't know what to do till Europe starts up, it's not like there was other games on the weekend and again this coming week

Brendan wrote:
The owners of the Welsh regions had to impose a salary cap because they wanted to limit the funds they were spending because they couldn't afford to grow the debt.  Did Richmond get fed up with top level club rugby and chose to drop a fair few divions down the club set up.  I thought they became insolvent due to their debt and folded.  Sure it had nothing to do with the debt they were growing each year as expenses exceeded income.  If I was talking about Debt racked up that wasn't a problem I would have used Sarries.  Dragon were taken over by the WRU as they had debt issues.  If Ponty Debt folded the Warriors how would Ponty have survived by themselves.  If you didn't understand the point fine but if you didn't understand the Richmond reference you must not have understood the problems of the 90s that some clubs faced.

Your first sentence is complete horse balls as proven by the fact that they all grew debt once Roger Lewis left.

To educate you: they imposed the cap when they were fighting the WRU, because they couldn't do a fair deal with Lewis.

Ponty debt didn't fold the Warriors, either.

You're right - you don't understand the fine points. Nor the not so fine, either.

Brendan wrote:

If Welsh and English clubs had joined together the PRL would have covered all clubs in the top division, possibly the Championship aswell.  Now do you honestly think that the Welsh players would only have been at the clubs in Wales.  As it is the Regions have problems keeping players from English clubs. So if one body was going to represent all top clubs how would the Welsh have got access to all Welsh players if they only paid the 4 Welsh clubs.

If the Welsh joined the Premiership now don't you think they would have to join the PRL. Do you think the PRL would not demand a much larger fee than currently paid by the WRU and that this money would be shared with all PRL members.  Remember Saints got fined because they gave North time off as per his contract because the WRU refused to pay for access for Welsh players.

The RFU pay good money for a 4th AI the WRU don't.

Bloody hell.

The reason that Welsh teams have problems keeping hold of their players is because there is more money in the English league. So guess what would happen to the Welsh clubs if they were part of that league: do you think their earnings would go up or down? And, if they went up, do you think that would help them keep hold of Welsh talent?

Why do you think the WRU play 4AIs? To pay money to PRW.

You are utterly clueless.

Brendan wrote:

So I grew up in a small town of 1000 people.  Are you saying that if my town could get it 900 people to watch our team it would mean that the club was getting attendances.  Sadly they would only be getting 900.  So attendance as a percent of population does mean you will get big crowds. Newcastle and Sale have low attendances because away teams don't bring half the fans to a match.  Again can you tell me how many fans you think the away teams would bring or would the home teams have more fans.  In Europe are games v English teams much better attended.

As an article I posted before from WOL every region had higher average attendance than their first season in the Celtic league.  Welsh club rugby didn't have great attendances except of derbies which in the PRO14 is the Regions best attendance now (though not massive)

We can't get "big crowds" in Wales because there aren't many people here. That's the bloody point.

If you want to know how to get bigger crowds in Wales - look at the Saracens sell out.

Brendan wrote:


So if you had a player with an English father and Welsh mother you don't think the club would tell the player that "if you choose England we get more money so we can pay you more" and the player would be lured by the match fees.  

That happens at the moment.

PhilBB wrote:

Why do you think the WRU play 4AIs? To pay money to PRW.

You are utterly clueless.

PRW (Regions therein) not viable again? You keep shooting your own Privately Owned Club model foot... using evidence provided by yourself. Not enough people in Wales. Not enough money coming in from League money/sponsorship etc... not viable and requiring WRU assistance each year to continue trading.
Incidentally, that extra AI game each year... the very thing some Regional fans complain about as it keeps 'stars' away and lowers the odds on Regional wins.

Catch 22.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Why do you think the WRU play 4AIs? To pay money to PRW.

You are utterly clueless.

PRW (Regions therein) not viable again?  You keep shooting your own Privately Owned Club model foot... using evidence provided by yourself.  Not enough people in Wales.  Not enough money coming in from League money/sponsorship etc... not viable and requiring WRU assistance each year to continue trading.  
Incidentally, that extra AI game each year... the very thing some Regional fans complain about as it keeps 'stars' away and lowers the odds on Regional wins.

Catch 22.

You do realise that the second largest customer for the clubs are the Unions who buy their services.

Do you understand that?

I do realise you've used inverted semantics quite a lot to extract yourself from problems. I say again - Regions, by your own oft used arguments, are not currently viable (ie. capable of existing without WRU assistance).

WRU 'buy' the services of players who wouldn't exist in/remain in/return to Regions unless WRU financed them.

SecretFly wrote:Regions, by your own oft used arguments, are not currently viable (ie. capable of existing without WRU assistance).

They are not viable, and I say this with a heavy heart.

If anybody comes on here to try and convince you otherwise, then they must be the most optimistic people on the planet, but the regions are dying. There is no interest what so ever in them anymore outside of the post codes the stadiums are in.

People can say what they like, but taking the Pro14 off the BBC in Wales has all but condemned the regions and the Pro14 in Wales to the scrapheap.

The interest is dying quicker than I first anticipated, no doubt I will have fans on here to come and tell me otherwise.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Regions, by your own oft used arguments, are not currently viable (ie. capable of existing without WRU assistance).

They are not viable, and I say this with a heavy heart.

If anybody comes on here to try and convince you otherwise, then they must be the most optimistic people on the planet, but the regions are dying. There is no interest what so ever in them anymore outside of the post codes the stadiums are in.

People can say what they like, but taking the Pro14 off the BBC in Wales has all but condemned the regions and the Pro14 in Wales to the scrapheap.

The interest is dying quicker than I first anticipated, no doubt I will have fans on here to come and tell me otherwise.

^The sign of the times. Post Truth. You've taken your own opinion and told people it's fact. Why have you done that?

You know that the 4 regions won't be gone at the end of the season. You know this. So why have you said they are on the "scrapheap"?

When you say interest is dying, it's just your interest is dying.

There are many reasons to be concerned about Welsh rugby. Not least with Union involvement creeping more and more into the domestic game, which is utterly wrong.

If the 4 Welsh regions are not viable, then what the heck is Connacht?

RugbyFan100 wrote:You know that the 4 regions won't be gone at the end of the season. You know this. So why have you said they are on the "scrapheap"?

I never said any of that. I suggest you read it again.

RugbyFan100 wrote:When you say interest is dying, it's just your interest is dying.

You honestly believe that ? You honestly believe it's just me ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:^The sign of the times. Post Truth. You've taken your own opinion and told people it's fact. Why have you done that?

I have not said it's a fact, but you must be living outside of Wales or never leave the postcode of the regional grounds to not realise what is happening.

RugbyFan100 wrote:If the 4 Welsh regions are not viable, then what the heck is Connacht?

What has Connacht got to do with anything ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

If the 4 Welsh regions are not viable, then what the heck is Connacht?

Connacht is IRFU owned.  That's what it is.  

The IRFU is viable - Connacht is a single unit in a largely five Unit Operation (four Provinces + International)  It fulfils a function and it gets paid to keep the show on the road.  It's not a stand-alone operation (private) - chances are it wouldn't survive if it were.  Your Irish example emphasises my point to Phil.  It doesn't weaken it, it emphasises it.

So to clarify that point; with WRU involvement in Regions (increasing rather than decreasing) Regions will be viable.  WRU involvement assists viability.

SecretFly wrote:So to clarify that point; with WRU involvement in Regions (increasing rather than decreasing) Regions will be viable.

Ill answer that for you, NO.

There is not enough interest to make them viable, not to the standard needed to compete with the other teams in the league, or Europe. Why ? Lack of interest. Lack of exposure.

But fly you miss the most important point of both Phill and fans argument.
They love the PRL and dream of the day the big manly PRL ride in and sweep the Welsh up in their powerful arms, and off into the sunset they will go, happy, forever.


Which is a shame as the PRL couldn't give two flying F**ks about the Welsh ( unless they need them to vote for something then they whisper "soon " in their ears and the Welsh go weak at the knees)

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So to clarify that point; with WRU involvement in Regions (increasing rather than decreasing) Regions will be viable.

Ill answer that for you, NO.

There is not enough interest to make them viable, not to the standard needed to compete with the other teams in the league, or Europe. Why ? Lack of interest. Lack of exposure.

There Hasn't been enough interest.

Yet, the more clingy WRU involvement is I'd assume just growing.  I'd assume it will be honed and developed to be a more cohesive marketing as much as funding relationship.  It's amazing what winning does to consolidate interest. Puts bums back on seats and kill off moans and groans.

I think Wales will get a 'viable' model off the ground and I believe Regions will attract more of a following into the future.  

There is that lingering problem that all Regions are lying virtually in one region but......... that's a peculiar Welsh problem that I don't begin to pretend I fully understand.  More WRU/Regional cooperation instead of generational in-fighting will work in the end.  It has to because it's the only model that makes sense.

carpet baboon wrote:But fly you miss the most important point of both Phill and fans argument.
They love the PRL and dream of the day the big manly PRL ride in and sweep the Welsh up in their powerful arms, and off into the sunset they will go, happy, forever.


Which is a shame as the PRL couldn't give two flying F**ks about the Welsh ( unless they need them to vote for something then they whisper "soon " in their ears and the Welsh go weak at the knees)

That's the line that made me laugh today. Thanks carpet. It's been a serious day up until now.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So to clarify that point; with WRU involvement in Regions (increasing rather than decreasing) Regions will be viable.

Ill answer that for you, NO.

There is not enough interest to make them viable, not to the standard needed to compete with the other teams in the league, or Europe. Why ? Lack of interest. Lack of exposure.

There Hasn't been enough interest.

Yet, the more clingy WRU involvement is I'd assume just growing.  I'd assume it will be honed and developed to be a more cohesive marketing as much as funding relationship.  It's amazing what winning does to consolidate interest.  Puts bums back on seats and kill off moans and groans.

I think Wales will get a 'viable' model off the ground and I believe Regions will attract more of a following into the future.  

There is that lingering problem that all Regions are lying virtually in one region but......... that's a peculiar Welsh problem that I don't begin to pretend I fully understand.  More WRU/Regional cooperation instead of generational in-fighting will work in the end.  It has to because it's the only model that makes sense.

SF. I do not take pleasure in telling people this, I honestly do not. I am trying to come across as sincere as I can on an internet forum, but trust me, I am witnessing it first hand. I hope I am wrong, I really do, but I do not know where, in the current climate, the regions are going to get these bums on seats from.

There was a point, where I thought the tides were turning, they truly were, there is no real infighting anymore, the bitterness towards the regions is fading, but that is mostly because nobody cares anymore. Interest in the Pro14 and the regions was on an upward curve.

In Wales, the only people who really watch the regions now, are people from Llanelli, parts of Newport, parts of Cardiff, and Parts of Swansea. Outside of that, the rest of Wales, nobody gives a flying frigg. It's a shame, as they were gathering momentum in the not too distant past. But as soon as everything went to Premier Sports, that curve has gone massively downwards.

Perhaps Premier Sports will continue to pay for the Pro14, but why would they pay for something, that very few people in the UK are subscribing to watch ?

I would wager that more people are watching the Welsh Premiership in Wales than the Pro14 now in Wales.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So to clarify that point; with WRU involvement in Regions (increasing rather than decreasing) Regions will be viable.

Ill answer that for you, NO.

There is not enough interest to make them viable, not to the standard needed to compete with the other teams in the league, or Europe. Why ? Lack of interest. Lack of exposure.

There Hasn't been enough interest.

Yet, the more clingy WRU involvement is I'd assume just growing.  I'd assume it will be honed and developed to be a more cohesive marketing as much as funding relationship.  It's amazing what winning does to consolidate interest.  Puts bums back on seats and kill off moans and groans.

I think Wales will get a 'viable' model off the ground and I believe Regions will attract more of a following into the future.  

There is that lingering problem that all Regions are lying virtually in one region but......... that's a peculiar Welsh problem that I don't begin to pretend I fully understand.  More WRU/Regional cooperation instead of generational in-fighting will work in the end.  It has to because it's the only model that makes sense.

Just because a model works in Ireland does not make it the best model for every other country. Countries have different rugby structures and histories. Your comment about all the regions being in South Wales indicates your lack of understanding. The regions are there because that is where the people are. The systems in France and England would not work anywhere else because they do not have the populations to make it work.

I am also very wary of the assumption that because Ireland are winning this year therefore the Irish system must be best. These things come and go. England put together a record run of wins and Sarries won the Cup twice. Did that mean they had the best system? Then came the Lions tour and both England and English clubs had one poor season. Does that mean the English system is broken?

carpet baboon wrote:But fly you miss the most important point of both Phill and fans argument.
They love the PRL and dream of the day the big manly PRL ride in and sweep the Welsh up in their powerful arms, and off into the sunset they will go, happy, forever.


Which is a shame as the PRL couldn't give two flying F**ks about the Welsh ( unless they need them to vote for something then they whisper "soon " in their ears and the Welsh go weak at the knees)

What has that got to do with individual fans’ aspirations to join that league. I don’t particularly want the regions to join the English league but I’m not going to get all high and mighty and tell others that they’re wrong to want it or aspire to it. Do you think NZ clubs gave a flying f*ck about the Argentine team joining their pro league? Course they didn’t. Nor for the Sunwolves joining either I expect. But I bet the Argentines/Japanese and their union were weak at the knees about the prospect of joining. They got their desire in the end. Good for them. But is it your place to tell those Argentines that they shouldn’t aspire to join a league that probably doesn’t want them or ‘give two flying f**cks’ about them, as you so eloquently put it?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So to clarify that point; with WRU involvement in Regions (increasing rather than decreasing) Regions will be viable.

Ill answer that for you, NO.

There is not enough interest to make them viable, not to the standard needed to compete with the other teams in the league, or Europe. Why ? Lack of interest. Lack of exposure.

I think that’s Fly’s point. If the regions are just about struggling to break even and be ‘viable’ in a business sense, then some outside additional involvement/income (e.g. from the WRU) could make up any short fall and therefore make them viable. Talking front a strictly business/break even sense of ‘viability’. Similarly, if a region was not viable at current crowd levels and income levels by, say, £100k and a private investor agreed to make up the shortfall until the end of time then the region would become viable. Again, in a business sense. Regions are only ‘not viable’ if they are at risk of going bankrupt and ceasing to trade and either have to reduce squad size to a point where they can’t field a team or take out loans they can’t pay. While they are able to operate, attract sponsors and pay players and staff then they are technically ‘viable’, even if they are not able to compete as well as they might with bigger budgets.

Unless you mean something else by viable?

The Oracle wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:But fly you miss the most important point of both Phill and fans argument.
They love the PRL and dream of the day the big manly PRL ride in and sweep the Welsh up in their powerful arms, and off into the sunset they will go, happy, forever.


Which is a shame as the PRL couldn't give two flying F**ks about the Welsh ( unless they need them to vote for something then they whisper "soon " in their ears and the Welsh go weak at the knees)

What has that got to do with individual fans’ aspirations to join that league. I don’t particularly want the regions to join the English league but I’m not going to get all high and mighty and tell others that they’re wrong to want it or aspire to it. Do you think NZ clubs gave a flying f*ck about the Argentine team joining their pro league? Course they didn’t. Nor for the Sunwolves joining either I expect. But I bet the Argentines/Japanese and their union were weak at the knees about the prospect of joining. They got their desire in the end. Good for them. But is it your place to tell those Argentines that they shouldn’t aspire to join a league that probably doesn’t want them or ‘give two flying f**cks’ about them, as you so eloquently put it?

My good man I carry no ill will for the region's or there fan's.
It was more directed to a certain poster who for years has gone on and on and on about how unfair it is and how everything and everyone is conspiring against them, and if they weren't being held against there will by the Irish, they would be free to be run in fields of wheat with there one true love.

All in jest my good man

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So to clarify that point; with WRU involvement in Regions (increasing rather than decreasing) Regions will be viable.

Ill answer that for you, NO.

There is not enough interest to make them viable, not to the standard needed to compete with the other teams in the league, or Europe. Why ? Lack of interest. Lack of exposure.

I think that’s Fly’s point. If the regions are just about struggling to break even and be ‘viable’ in a business sense, then some outside additional involvement/income (e.g. from the WRU) could make up any short fall and therefore make them viable. Talking front a strictly business/break even sense of ‘viability’. Similarly, if a region was not viable at current crowd levels and income levels by, say, £100k and a private investor agreed to make up the shortfall until the end of time then the region would become viable. Again, in a business sense. Regions are only ‘not viable’ if they are at risk of going bankrupt and ceasing to trade and either have to reduce squad size to a point where they can’t field a team or take out loans they can’t pay. While they are able to operate, attract sponsors and pay players and staff then they are technically ‘viable’, even if they are not able to compete as well as they might with bigger budgets.

Unless you mean something else by viable?

There is only so much money in Welsh rugby. Whatever the structure of the game in Wales there is only the income generated by the regions themselves plus anything the WRU can generate from international games. If the WRU were to own and control the regions in a similar way to the IRFU it would not automatically generate any extra income. Could the WRU realistically devote more their income to the regional game? Maybe but where would it come from? Pay the internal players less? From the grass roots?

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:

So I grew up in a small town of 1000 people.  Are you saying that if my town could get it 900 people to watch our team it would mean that the club was getting attendances.  Sadly they would only be getting 900.  So attendance as a percent of population does mean you will get big crowds. Newcastle and Sale have low attendances because away teams don't bring half the fans to a match.  Again can you tell me how many fans you think the away teams would bring or would the home teams have more fans.  In Europe are games v English teams much better attended.

As an article I posted before from WOL every region had higher average attendance than their first season in the Celtic league.  Welsh club rugby didn't have great attendances except of derbies which in the PRO14 is the Regions best attendance now (though not massive)

We can't get "big crowds" in Wales because there aren't many people here. That's the bloody point.

If you want to know how to get bigger crowds in Wales - look at the Saracens sell out.

   Aren't Cardiff and the Ospreys based in cities that have populations 300k+? There are a lot of sports teams out there, that would kill for that.

Also one sell out against Sarries doesn't prove anything. I remember the Ospreys got 12k against Ulster but couldn't break the 10k mark when they hosted Leicester in the Hcup, not too long after. The only reason why I remember that is because I've seen this same argument on here before.

Exiledinborders wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So to clarify that point; with WRU involvement in Regions (increasing rather than decreasing) Regions will be viable.

Ill answer that for you, NO.

There is not enough interest to make them viable, not to the standard needed to compete with the other teams in the league, or Europe. Why ? Lack of interest. Lack of exposure.

I think that’s Fly’s point. If the regions are just about struggling to break even and be ‘viable’ in a business sense, then some outside additional involvement/income (e.g. from the WRU) could make up any short fall and therefore make them viable. Talking front a strictly business/break even sense of ‘viability’. Similarly, if a region was not viable at current crowd levels and income levels by, say, £100k and a private investor agreed to make up the shortfall until the end of time then the region would become viable. Again, in a business sense. Regions are only ‘not viable’ if they are at risk of going bankrupt and ceasing to trade and either have to reduce squad size to a point where they can’t field a team or take out loans they can’t pay. While they are able to operate, attract sponsors and pay players and staff then they are technically ‘viable’, even if they are not able to compete as well as they might with bigger budgets.

Unless you mean something else by viable?

There is only so much money in Welsh rugby. Whatever the structure of the game in Wales there is only the income generated by the regions themselves plus anything the WRU can generate from international games. If the WRU were to own and control the regions in a similar way to the IRFU it would not automatically generate any extra income.  Could the WRU realistically devote more their income to the regional game? Maybe but where would it come from? Pay the internal players less?  From the grass roots?

Currently, with the ownership model that we have - yes. Where would it come from?! The WRU are rolling in it! Record turnover announced recently (a bit more than Ireland and double Scotland, but well below England, or sometime like that). I think it was something like £100m for the WRU and €90m plus for Ireland, but Ireland have to fully fund 4 pro teams. Not saying the WRU should give more to the regions based on that as the regions are private entities (well, 3.5 of them are). But they have the money. Funding the regions more would not bankrupt the WRU, but again I’m not suggesting they should

There’s a perception on these boards that most of the regions’ budget comes from the WRU coffers. While it is channeled through the WRU, the vast majority is tv and competition money. The WRU pays for player access (so Gats can have them longer) like in England, however this is up for review as part of the rugby service agreement (RSA) and is not a huge amount in comparison to the tv and competition income. So the WRU contribution is not huge, but I’m sure is welcomed to help swell the coffers. I think, if I’ve understood it correctly, that this year is a bit of an anomaly too as the Dragons were ‘given’ £500k extra by the WRU as part of the buy in but the others kicked up a stink and demanded the same (as is the agreement of the RSA). Not sure what will happen with the new RSA now that one region is part owned by the WRU

The Oracle wrote:Currently, with the ownership model that we have - yes. Where would it come from?! The WRU are rolling in it! Record turnover announced recently (a bit more than Ireland and double Scotland, but well below England, or sometime like that). I think it was something like £100m for the WRU and €90m plus for Ireland, but Ireland have to fully fund 4 pro teams. Not saying the WRU should give more to the regions based on that as the regions are private entities (well, 3.5 of them are). But they have the money. Funding the regions more would not bankrupt the WRU, but again I’m not suggesting they should

To be fair the Irish provinces are not just propped up by the international side, like what would have to happen in Wales.

Leinster could easily hold their own, as would Ulster and Munster. They get big enough crowds.

The interest is dwindling in Wales, the league, and the regions are not in the public eye anymore, people are not missing them either, they are being forgotten.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Currently, with the ownership model that we have - yes. Where would it come from?! The WRU are rolling in it! Record turnover announced recently (a bit more than Ireland and double Scotland, but well below England, or sometime like that). I think it was something like £100m for the WRU and €90m plus for Ireland, but Ireland have to fully fund 4 pro teams. Not saying the WRU should give more to the regions based on that as the regions are private entities (well, 3.5 of them are). But they have the money. Funding the regions more would not bankrupt the WRU, but again I’m not suggesting they should

To be fair the Irish provinces are not just propped up by the international side, like what would have to happen in Wales.

Leinster could easily hold their own, as would Ulster and Munster. They get big enough crowds.

The interest is dwindling in Wales, the league, and the regions are not in the public eye anymore, people are not missing them either, they are being forgotten.

As suggested above I think you’re speaking of your own experience, and perhaps those of your friends, and then trying to apply that across wales. What evidence do you have for this interest dwindling apart from your own experience? Have you carried out the research? Or read research that has been carried out? Have regional crowd levels dropped significantly? I think they’re about the same. Or are just just assuming that with 1 game less on bbc that this means interest has dropped? Isn’t that just guess work? I recently got rid of Sky so no longer have National Geogrpahic (which I miss actually). Doesn’t mean my interest in documentaries has dwindled. It’s as keen as ever. Similarly, one less regional game I personally don’t believe will mean people’s interest in rugby will drop much. It hasn’t happened when rugby has moved to pay tv in other countries and I don’t think it will in Wales either.

Huge amount of misinformation in this thread. The WRU rolling in it? Why do they only make £1.5m profit a year then?

It would cost an estinated £10 - £12m to take the keys of the 4 regions and replace the benefactors. Where is that going to come from?

As for viability, what does it mean? If the Scarlets make a profit of 50p next year, is their model suddenly viable?

If you are talking about financial viabiolity, then 90% of rugby union isn't financially viable and Toulon have the best model.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Currently, with the ownership model that we have - yes. Where would it come from?! The WRU are rolling in it! Record turnover announced recently (a bit more than Ireland and double Scotland, but well below England, or sometime like that). I think it was something like £100m for the WRU and €90m plus for Ireland, but Ireland have to fully fund 4 pro teams. Not saying the WRU should give more to the regions based on that as the regions are private entities (well, 3.5 of them are). But they have the money. Funding the regions more would not bankrupt the WRU, but again I’m not suggesting they should

To be fair the Irish provinces are not just propped up by the international side, like what would have to happen in Wales.

Leinster could easily hold their own, as would Ulster and Munster. They get big enough crowds.

The interest is dwindling in Wales, the league, and the regions are not in the public eye anymore, people are not missing them either, they are being forgotten.

As suggested above I think you’re speaking of your own experience, and perhaps those of your friends, and then trying to apply that across wales. What evidence do you have for this interest dwindling apart from your own experience? Have you carried out the research? Or read research that has been carried out? Have regional crowd levels dropped significantly? I think they’re about the same. Or are just just assuming that with 1 game less on bbc that this means interest has dropped? Isn’t that just guess work? I recently got rid of Sky so no longer have National Geogrpahic (which I miss actually). Doesn’t mean my interest in documentaries has dwindled. It’s as keen as ever. Similarly, one less regional game I personally don’t believe will mean people’s interest in rugby will drop much. It hasn’t happened when rugby has moved to pay tv in other countries and I don’t think it will in Wales either.

Why do you always say this nonsense ?

You live in Wales, if you took 5mins to get out of your regional bubble, you would see that 80% of Wales perhaps more, do not give two hoots about the Pro14, or the regions anymore, but at least I am being honest about it.

I'll tell you what, you keep on dreaming that dream. You keep burying your head in the sand, you keep telling everyone that everything is going GRRRRRREAAATTTT !!!!!!!!!!

Lack of interest in rugby or the format of the league?

Must be a strange mind that is able to just pull arbitrary %s out of thin air without any basis or factual backing to support your claims, then claim everyone else is in a bubble and going mad

LD I get that but what's the solution for Welsh rugby ?
The international team is doing well, the regions are ticking along - neither better nor worse over the last few seasons - but at the other end Neath one of Wales' most historic and prestigious clubs have just gone bankrupt.
Is the problem that Wales doesn't know what to do - the boat has sailed with regard to them ever joining the English league, there appears to still be some reluctance to accept the regional model, there aren't enough fans or money to sustain the Welsh Premiership as a professional league but it seems reluctant to take the step towards semi-pro/paid to play which would work better - what needs to be done?

Irish Londoner wrote:LD I get that but what's the solution for Welsh rugby ?
The international team is doing well, the regions are ticking along - neither better nor worse over the last few seasons -  but at the other end Neath one of Wales' most historic and prestigious clubs have just gone bankrupt.

That's complete and utter mismanagement by the owner. Nothing to do with regional or test rugby or inherent structures.