The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

Stone Motif wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/the-maths-of-pro-rugby-wales-is-skint/

Where's the like button

Usual delusion from Wales. If there ever was a time when there could have been a combined league with the English clubs it's long gone.
I can see that there might be a perceived benefit to the Welsh clubs but the problem is that there is no perceived benefit or advantage to the English clubs. By Phil's own admission the Welsh have no money (and I'd be very surprised if a glut of rugby loving Welsh millionaires suddenly come out the woodwork).
The PRL are looking to ringfence the league not expand it and given the likely backlash from the Championship clubs if they try it, try adding the idea that not only are we freezing English clubs out we are letting Welsh clubs in, it would be a hugely controversial idea for English rugby to swallow.
I also assume that playing in the English league means that the Welsh clubs qualification for Europe would be via the "English" allocation to the Premiership so no Champions Cup rugby in Wales then.
If someone can show the advantages to English club rugby I'd like to see them.

Usual failure to comprehend from Ireland. Phil is pointing out that there are two choices based on the finances, either seek to enter the teams into a more profitable league in order to sustain them, or Martin Anayi needs to find another two far flung corners of the globe to invite into the jambO'ree to replace Newport and Swansea.

Well in that case there is only one choice as the English clubs don't want you/won't have you - I've get to see any evidence to the contrary or any evidence that there are lots of Welsh millionaires waiting in the wings to turn the Welsh clubs into financial powerhouses if only the WRU would keep out of it.
I suppose the question might be better phrased as "what do Welsh rugby supporters want and how can Wales do it within the existing set up" ?

marty2086 wrote:

Brendan wrote:
The assertion that Exeter cost £20m to run so the Welsh Regions should aswell is rubbish. I don't think any Pro14 teams cost near that to run.  I'm not sure how the management of the WRU and the Regions are chosen but they don't seem to get the bang for their buck.  The SRU was worse and near bankruptcy (if possible) before they turned things around.

Ulster for 2017/18 cost £10.1m
Scarlets for 2016/17 cost £11m
Ospreys for 2016/17 cost £9.7m
Cardiff Blues for 2016/17 cost £9.8m
SRU costs for the whole professional game were £28.9m

Thanks Marty for the figures.

So what the figures show is the Cheifs are under performing or more likely the Pro14 only does value for money and scraped the extras

geoff999rugby wrote:Is that the same PhilBB who post hear?
If so can be ignored as he has been 100% wrong re Irish finances in the past

Liar.

carpet baboon wrote:

And on a final note on the author of that article, although he does highlight some some interesting points ( not just in that article but in general) his credibility takes a huge hit with his almost religious fervour to blame the IRFU (as shown with his constant Pr'o 14 and blazer's comments) to be taken too seriously, as he often comes across as having a mahoosive chip on his shoulder

Fair play, that's epic in its projecting.

I don't blame the IRFU for anything. They've looked after their own and the silly billy WRU have allowed them to do it.

Stone Motif wrote:

And on a final note, Phil has been only too complementary about how the Irish fund their teams to the betterment of Irish rugby as a whole. He has just pointed out it makes a mockery of fair competition, as he has also done with the Dragons being owned by the WRU, or the proposed 3+1 model being discussed here in Wales now. He might say it in a high-falutin', I'm right about everything, assumptive, me me me me me way, but then I think he's from Cardiff. And he's right on the points above, no matter how much certain people's own shoulder chips prevent them from looking at the message not the poster.

Spot on. And thank you for correcting those who deliberately misrepresent.

Pot Hale wrote:
In fairness, Stone, Phil BB’s assertions about finances for both WRU and IRFU have been somewhat skewy in the past.  And he’s used the same assertions in other fora previously including his blog that you’ve linked above.    Saying that he is complimentary about IRFU finding is somewhat disingenuous given his oft-repeated use of phrases like Pro’14, and assumptions of Irish bias, incompetence, etc.   I notice you also like to use Pro’14 repeatedly like some permanent whinge - or is it a badge of honour amongst a select number of Welsh posting fans?

Drivel. And you should write better stuff than that.

Nothing has been "skewy". There is Irish bias in the league, it is run for the benefit of the Irish, so the "PrO'14" moniker is valid.

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:
And on a final note, Phil has been only too complementary about how the Irish fund their teams to the betterment of Irish rugby as a whole. He has just pointed out it makes a mockery of fair competition, as he has also done with the Dragons being owned by the WRU, or the proposed 3+1 model being discussed here in Wales now. He might say it in a high-falutin', I'm right about everything, assumptive, me me me me me way, but then I think he's from Cardiff. And he's right on the points above, no matter how much certain people's own shoulder chips prevent them from looking at the message not the poster.

How exactly does it make a mockery of fair competition?

How does one Australian controlling the unequal budget of four entrants make a mockery of fair competition?

It's embarrassing that you'd even have to ask such a moronic and stupid question.

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:
And on a final note, Phil has been only too complementary about how the Irish fund their teams to the betterment of Irish rugby as a whole. He has just pointed out it makes a mockery of fair competition, as he has also done with the Dragons being owned by the WRU, or the proposed 3+1 model being discussed here in Wales now. He might say it in a high-falutin', I'm right about everything, assumptive, me me me me me way, but then I think he's from Cardiff. And he's right on the points above, no matter how much certain people's own shoulder chips prevent them from looking at the message not the poster.

How exactly does it make a mockery of fair competition?

How does it not?

Well argued
Should we take it you don't actually know and can't explain hence that post?

No, you should take it that I don't want to hear your yapping chihuahua impression.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/the-maths-of-pro-rugby-wales-is-skint/

Where's the like button

Usual delusion from Wales. If there ever was a time when there could have been a combined league with the English clubs it's long gone.
I can see that there might be a perceived benefit to the Welsh clubs but the problem is that there is no perceived benefit or advantage to the English clubs. By Phil's own admission the Welsh have no money (and I'd be very surprised if a glut of rugby loving Welsh millionaires suddenly come out the woodwork).
The PRL are looking to ringfence the league not expand it and given the likely backlash from the Championship clubs if they try it, try adding the idea that not only are we freezing English clubs out we are letting Welsh clubs in, it would be a hugely controversial idea for English rugby to swallow.
I also assume that playing in the English league means that the Welsh clubs qualification for Europe would be via the "English" allocation to the Premiership so no Champions Cup rugby in Wales then.
If someone can show the advantages to English club rugby I'd like to see them.

I don't know what you're referring to be as being "deluded" as I haven't suggested that PRL would be receptive. I've just noted that it's the only route of professional rugby thriving in Wales.

By the way, the glut of rugby loving Welsh millionaires are already in situ. They already own the three teams. I'm not surprised that you didn't know that.

Brendan wrote:

Philbb raises some valid points but not in the way he thinks

WRU Finances £85m
SRU Finances £57m
WRU has an extra £28m while the SRU view they have £5m they can invest in another team each year.

Attendances17/18 (includes playoffs)
Scarlets 9k
Ospreys 7k
Blues 11.4k (JD)
Dragons 10.3k (JD)
Glasgow 7.6k
Edinburgh 7.6k (Club final)
The Regions get higher attendances than the Districts

Private Investors only is in Wales.

I think the problem with the Regions is poor synergy between the Regions and Unions.  Also the WRU should fund the Regions based on Criteria they set out.  Wales has the best potential

Why are you comparing turnovers instead of money invested into the professional game?

The Oracle wrote: I thought the figures (WRU £85m, SRU £57m) were revenue and not profit or surplus?  Not sure it takes into account outgoings, which may be higher for the WRU than SRU?

Exactly.

Many people don't understand how a business works.

Brendan wrote:

I'm not saying that the WRU have tons of money just the assertion that they need to go to the SRU model of two clubs is total rubbish.  Giving all the Regions the same amount of money isn't ideal either as it doesn't reward/punish what teams are doing.

Wales has the fan numbers to support 4 teams and the Union money to fund them.  Hard choices may need to be made to reduce spending in other areas to fund them fully but that is what the board is paid to do.

The assertion that Exeter cost £20m to run so the Welsh Regions should aswell is rubbish. I don't think any Pro14 teams cost near that to run.  I'm not sure how the management of the WRU and the Regions are chosen but they don't seem to get the bang for their buck.  The SRU was worse and near bankruptcy (if possible) before they turned things around.

How dumb is this? I've just gone through the numbers in the WRU accounts to prove that the WRU does NOT have the "Union money to fund them".

The "spending in other areas" is now ring fenced and the PRB have access to only the sources of expenditure listed in the blog.

If you don't think that PrO'14 teams cost that much to run then you are compounding your stupidity. Do some of your own research.

Stone Motif wrote:

Usual failure to comprehend from Ireland. Phil is pointing out that there are two choices based on the finances, either seek to enter the teams into a more profitable league in order to sustain them, or Martin Anayi needs to find another two far flung corners of the globe to invite into the jambO'ree to replace Newport and Swansea.

Again, thank you for taking the time to translate for the stupid.

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:
And on a final note, Phil has been only too complementary about how the Irish fund their teams to the betterment of Irish rugby as a whole. He has just pointed out it makes a mockery of fair competition, as he has also done with the Dragons being owned by the WRU, or the proposed 3+1 model being discussed here in Wales now. He might say it in a high-falutin', I'm right about everything, assumptive, me me me me me way, but then I think he's from Cardiff. And he's right on the points above, no matter how much certain people's own shoulder chips prevent them from looking at the message not the poster.

How exactly does it make a mockery of fair competition?

How does it not?

Well argued
Should we take it you don't actually know and can't explain hence that post?

No, you should take it that I don't want to hear your yapping chihuahua impression.

No, it seems pretty clear you don't know why it's meant to be unfair

marty2086 wrote:

Brendan wrote:
The assertion that Exeter cost £20m to run so the Welsh Regions should aswell is rubbish. I don't think any Pro14 teams cost near that to run.  I'm not sure how the management of the WRU and the Regions are chosen but they don't seem to get the bang for their buck.  The SRU was worse and near bankruptcy (if possible) before they turned things around.

Ulster for 2017/18 cost £10.1m
Scarlets for 2016/17 cost £11m
Ospreys for 2016/17 cost £9.7m
Cardiff Blues for 2016/17 cost £9.8m
SRU costs for the whole professional game were £28.9m

Another fragrant lie. The Ulster revenue was £10.2m with a large part of the costs not included (of course, as they are paid by the IRFU) in its annual report.

marty2086 wrote:
No, it seems pretty clear you don't know why it's meant to be unfair

The answer is so blindingly obvious as to render the questioner as thick as mince.

The reason why proper sports don't allow one entity to control more than one entrant is because it allows that entity to skew competition by weighting some teams better than others, or by dictating to coaches over selection for certain matches.

This is so basic to understand that the question should never have to be asked.

Brendan wrote:

Thanks Marty for the figures.

So what the figures show is the Cheifs are under performing or more likely the Pro14 only does value for money and scraped the extras

FFS, Brendan.

The cost of the businesses in Wales is indicative of their poor performances. Each will need to add SIGNIFICANT costs to their coaching and playing wages IF they want to be a Champions Cup competitive team.

It's really not difficult to understand that each will have to spend a minimum of £3m more in order to compete. And to spend that money normally requires the business to earn more than that. You know, not everything costs nothing but generates income.

It really is Billy Basic stuff.

marty2086 wrote: yap yap, yap yap yap yap yap

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote: yap yap, yap yap yap yap yap

The irony, can't back up your complaints yet accuse others of yapping

Shows the level of intelligence involved

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote: yap yap, yap yap yap yap yap

The irony, can't back up your complaints yet accuse others of yapping

Shows the level of intelligence involved

More yap. Enough with your mouth-breathing buffoonery. It would be obvious to a child.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Thanks Marty for the figures.

So what the figures show is the Cheifs are under performing or more likely the Pro14 only does value for money and scraped the extras

FFS, Brendan.

The cost of the businesses in Wales is indicative of their poor performances. Each will need to add SIGNIFICANT costs to their coaching and playing wages IF they want to be a Champions Cup competitive team.

It's really not difficult to understand that each will have to spend a minimum of £3m more in order to compete. And to spend that money normally requires the business to earn more than that. You know, not everything costs nothing but generates income.

It really is Billy Basic stuff.

So what you are saying is the season before Cockerill took over Edinburgh, their ok form was them doing as expected.  Suddenly he came in the spent massive amounts of money to finish 3rd in the Conference with 15 wins out of 21 games.  He then spent massive more money once back in the Champs Cup to be top of their group and in with a shout of a home Quarter.

Oh wait, that's not what happened.  £28m to get two teams into the Champs quarters.  The SRU also voted against the IRFU for 2023 yet seem to be doing fine in the league.  If you honestly believe that the provinces are running on £20m a year they must have a leprechaun feeding them his pot of gold to make things balanced in the IRFU. After all that would be £80m a year just to run the mens provinces.

I would highly suggest that the WRU hire the guy who sorted the finances at the SRU.  I think from a finance point of view to be where they are now compared to the dark days is unbelievable. They also seem to be able to get good coaches and good squads on not a massive budget.  If as you suggest it is costing them £40m for the 2 teams plus the £5m they wanted to invest plus the Super 6 money they must also have pixies in their vaults.

The WRU has more bills that's fine but to claim that they can't spend more on the Regions is a lie.  They could if they wanted to they chose not to.  Yes they might have the money going places now but that is their choice.  It also doesn't help when the WRU try and invest in the Dragons and the other Regions won't let them.  So cleary money was there to spend

It couldn't be that the private investors are just rubbish at running clubs and that is why the Premiership, T14 & Welsh clubs spend loads yet underperform.  The old saying about spending other people's money comes to mind for the club's boards.

Brendan wrote:https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/r78m-per-year-wps-budget-the-biggest-in-sa-20180730

€1 = 16.5R
Big Mac Index (US$) Euro area 4.74, UK 4.23, SA 2.32 (for comparing true value of the money)
An article that seems to have gone under the radar regarding SA club wage bills.  I am sure certain posters will be able to inform us if the two Pro14 teams are exceeding expectation.

Stormers R78 million on128 players (average R609 375)
Bulls R68 million for 151 players (average R450 331)
Lions R66 million for 117 players (average R564 103)
Sharks R65 million for 111 players (average R585 586)
Cheetahs R41 million (€2.48m) for 92 players (average R445 652/€27k)
Southern Kings R12 million (€0.72m) for 68 players (average R176 471/€10.5k)

It shows how much of a strain on player resources the Currie Cup is.  Kings play in the lower division so their B team are not as strained.
If the Clubs can keep the same money on 50-60 players it should help alot
Becoming full members should boost the finances of the Pro14 teams.  Also looking at the figures are we surprised SA players are leaving for higher wages

Philbb you might not have seen this either.  Seems like some teams have even less money spent on wages then the Welsh teams.

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote: yap yap, yap yap yap yap yap

The irony, can't back up your complaints yet accuse others of yapping

Shows the level of intelligence involved

More yap. Enough with your mouth-breathing buffoonery. It would be obvious to a child.  

Yet you are incapable of explaining something so obvious?

I suppose it is unfair that the Regions have had union and private funding while the Irish and Scottish dont have to rely on the unions rather than a sugardaddy like their Welsh brethren

Brendan wrote:

Brendan wrote:https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/r78m-per-year-wps-budget-the-biggest-in-sa-20180730

€1 = 16.5R
Big Mac Index (US$) Euro area 4.74, UK 4.23, SA 2.32 (for comparing true value of the money)
An article that seems to have gone under the radar regarding SA club wage bills.  I am sure certain posters will be able to inform us if the two Pro14 teams are exceeding expectation.

Stormers R78 million on128 players (average R609 375)
Bulls R68 million for 151 players (average R450 331)
Lions R66 million for 117 players (average R564 103)
Sharks R65 million for 111 players (average R585 586)
Cheetahs R41 million (€2.48m) for 92 players (average R445 652/€27k)
Southern Kings R12 million (€0.72m) for 68 players (average R176 471/€10.5k)

It shows how much of a strain on player resources the Currie Cup is.  Kings play in the lower division so their B team are not as strained.
If the Clubs can keep the same money on 50-60 players it should help alot
Becoming full members should boost the finances of the Pro14 teams.  Also looking at the figures are we surprised SA players are leaving for higher wages

Philbb you might not have seen this either.  Seems like some teams have even less money spent on wages then the Welsh teams.

How were the Southern Kings allowed to join the Pro 14? Even their provincial side couldn't get into the first division in the currie cup.

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote: yap yap, yap yap yap yap yap

The irony, can't back up your complaints yet accuse others of yapping

Shows the level of intelligence involved

More yap. Enough with your mouth-breathing buffoonery. It would be obvious to a child.  

Yet you are incapable of explaining something so obvious?

I suppose it is unfair that the Regions have had union and private funding while the Irish and Scottish dont have to rely on the unions rather than a sugardaddy like their Welsh brethren

Yap yap yap. I've been here long enough to have witnessed you befoul every single thread you smear your presence across, with this attention seeking, desperate dance. I come on here to talk about rugby, not educate the pig ignorant on the meaning of simple concepts.

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote: yap yap, yap yap yap yap yap

The irony, can't back up your complaints yet accuse others of yapping

Shows the level of intelligence involved

More yap. Enough with your mouth-breathing buffoonery. It would be obvious to a child.  

Yet you are incapable of explaining something so obvious?

I suppose it is unfair that the Regions have had union and private funding while the Irish and Scottish dont have to rely on the unions rather than a sugardaddy like their Welsh brethren

Yap yap yap. I've been here long enough to have witnessed you befoul every single thread you smear your presence across, with this attention seeking, desperate dance. I come on here to talk about rugby, not educate the pig ignorant on the meaning of simple concepts.

I asked you to clarify why it's unfair, instead of doing that you repeatedly attack me personally. If you came to talk about rugby you would have

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Brendan wrote:https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/r78m-per-year-wps-budget-the-biggest-in-sa-20180730

€1 = 16.5R
Big Mac Index (US$) Euro area 4.74, UK 4.23, SA 2.32 (for comparing true value of the money)
An article that seems to have gone under the radar regarding SA club wage bills.  I am sure certain posters will be able to inform us if the two Pro14 teams are exceeding expectation.

Stormers R78 million on128 players (average R609 375)
Bulls R68 million for 151 players (average R450 331)
Lions R66 million for 117 players (average R564 103)
Sharks R65 million for 111 players (average R585 586)
Cheetahs R41 million (€2.48m) for 92 players (average R445 652/€27k)
Southern Kings R12 million (€0.72m) for 68 players (average R176 471/€10.5k)

It shows how much of a strain on player resources the Currie Cup is.  Kings play in the lower division so their B team are not as strained.
If the Clubs can keep the same money on 50-60 players it should help alot
Becoming full members should boost the finances of the Pro14 teams.  Also looking at the figures are we surprised SA players are leaving for higher wages

Philbb you might not have seen this either.  Seems like some teams have even less money spent on wages then the Welsh teams.

How were the Southern Kings allowed to join the Pro 14? Even their provincial side couldn't get into the first division in the currie cup.

Port Elisabeth is the next biggest city. Politics got them a SR spot which is how they got the Pro14 slot. Due to mismanagement they had to be bailed out which resulted in them having no money as the above shows.

They have potential due to the size of the city and they did recently get private money in and get their academy back up and running.

The Déjà vu thread continues apace.... or is that the Groundhog day thread? Well, it's one of them. Tally ho.

And things were going so well....

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
In fairness, Stone, Phil BB’s assertions about finances for both WRU and IRFU have been somewhat skewy in the past.  And he’s used the same assertions in other fora previously including his blog that you’ve linked above.    Saying that he is complimentary about IRFU finding is somewhat disingenuous given his oft-repeated use of phrases like Pro’14, and assumptions of Irish bias, incompetence, etc.   I notice you also like to use Pro’14 repeatedly like some permanent whinge - or is it a badge of honour amongst a select number of Welsh posting fans?

Drivel. And you should write better stuff than that.

Nothing has been "skewy". There is Irish bias in the league, it is run for the benefit of the Irish, so the "PrO'14" moniker is valid.

Unfortunately, they have been skewy because some of your written assumptions about the finances have been lacking in detail, partly due to ignorance - I had to enlighten you about these on a number of occasions. It’s your prerogative to have an opinion about bias within the PRO14 - I won’t resort to calling it drivel though.

PS Welcome back to the weird world of 606v2 - it knocks big spots off Twitter.

Love and kisses. PH

PhilBB wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/the-maths-of-pro-rugby-wales-is-skint/

Where's the like button

Usual delusion from Wales. If there ever was a time when there could have been a combined league with the English clubs it's long gone.
I can see that there might be a perceived benefit to the Welsh clubs but the problem is that there is no perceived benefit or advantage to the English clubs. By Phil's own admission the Welsh have no money (and I'd be very surprised if a glut of rugby loving Welsh millionaires suddenly come out the woodwork).
The PRL are looking to ringfence the league not expand it and given the likely backlash from the Championship clubs if they try it, try adding the idea that not only are we freezing English clubs out we are letting Welsh clubs in, it would be a hugely controversial idea for English rugby to swallow.
I also assume that playing in the English league means that the Welsh clubs qualification for Europe would be via the "English" allocation to the Premiership so no Champions Cup rugby in Wales then.
If someone can show the advantages to English club rugby I'd like to see them.

I don't know what you're referring to be as being "deluded" as I haven't suggested that PRL would be receptive. I've just noted that it's the only route of professional rugby thriving in Wales.

By the way, the glut of rugby loving Welsh millionaires are already in situ. They already own the three teams. I'm not surprised that you didn't know that.

But if by your own admission that route is closed, and will remain so unless there is some sort of B & I league, what should the WRU, the Welsh club owners and the fans do? You can sit and snipe and wait for Bruce Craig and Nigel Wray to come calling before jilting you, or you can do something about it. Everybody wants Welsh rugby to thrive and would like to see Welsh teams competing the HEC and getting quarter and semi final spots, but there see,s to be disconnect in Wales which some people are projecting on the "Pro'12". It all sounds a bit like hearing Scottish football fans going on about "if Celtic and Rangers could play in the English Premier League we'd be giving the Liverpools and Chelseas a hammering every week."
The situation is what it is, so if one direction is closed isn't it time to get on with making the best of the hand you've got to play.
And regarding these millionaire owners, if they aren't putting their hands in their pockets now to get better players for the current sides, how are they going to try and keep up with the Premiership clubs?
I get that you (and quite a few other people) don't like the set up at it is but it's up to Wales to help itself rather than sniping at everyone else.

Yes Phill is correct the WRU, SRU and the Italians all make sure the league is run specifically to benefit the Irish, as that's not a deluded I'm a victim mentality at all.

Just take a second to think about what your claiming, in your world your own Union and regions go out of there way to make sure us Irish are looked after first, and the Scots and the Italians do to.
So that's 3 unions and 8 teams all hurting themselves to help the Irish.
It's absolute bollix , but I suppose the only alternative would be to admit that maybe, just maybe the IRFU and provinces worked out how to run professional clubs better than your lot did.

But then you would have to stop playing the victim, and that suits you so well.
You and LD are so similar it's funny. Its always someone else's fault, the refs are biased, the league is a fix waa waa waa .

Next he will be calling everyone "champ" to prove his intellectual superiority.

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote: yap yap, yap yap yap yap yap

The irony, can't back up your complaints yet accuse others of yapping

Shows the level of intelligence involved

Writes the man who argued for years that the IRFU doesn't contract all professional rugby players in Ireland.

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
In fairness, Stone, Phil BB’s assertions about finances for both WRU and IRFU have been somewhat skewy in the past.  And he’s used the same assertions in other fora previously including his blog that you’ve linked above.    Saying that he is complimentary about IRFU finding is somewhat disingenuous given his oft-repeated use of phrases like Pro’14, and assumptions of Irish bias, incompetence, etc.   I notice you also like to use Pro’14 repeatedly like some permanent whinge - or is it a badge of honour amongst a select number of Welsh posting fans?

Drivel. And you should write better stuff than that.

Nothing has been "skewy". There is Irish bias in the league, it is run for the benefit of the Irish, so the "PrO'14" moniker is valid.

Unfortunately, they have been skewy because some of your written assumptions about the finances have been lacking in detail, partly due to ignorance - I had to enlighten you about these on a number of occasions.   It’s your prerogative to have an opinion about bias within the PRO14 - I won’t resort to calling it drivel though.

PS Welcome back to the weird world of 606v2 - it knocks big spots off Twitter.  

Love and kisses.  PH

Got to love Phil, tried making out on Twitter to his mate Simon Thomas he never said such things

Brendan wrote:

So what you are saying is the season before Cockerill took over Edinburgh, their ok form was them doing as expected.  Suddenly he came in the spent massive amounts of money to finish 3rd in the Conference with 15 wins out of 21 games.  He then spent massive more money once back in the Champs Cup to be top of their group and in with a shout of a home Quarter.

Oh wait, that's not what happened.  £28m to get two teams into the Champs quarters.  The SRU also voted against the IRFU for 2023 yet seem to be doing fine in the league.  If you honestly believe that the provinces are running on £20m a year they must have a leprechaun feeding them his pot of gold to make things balanced in the IRFU. After all that would be £80m a year just to run the mens provinces.

I would highly suggest that the WRU hire the guy who sorted the finances at the SRU.  I think from a finance point of view to be where they are now compared to the dark days is unbelievable. They also seem to be able to get good coaches and good squads on not a massive budget.  If as you suggest it is costing them £40m for the 2 teams plus the £5m they wanted to invest plus the Super 6 money they must also have pixies in their vaults.

The WRU has more bills that's fine but to claim that they can't spend more on the Regions is a lie.  They could if they wanted to they chose not to.  Yes they might have the money going places now but that is their choice.  It also doesn't help when the WRU try and invest in the Dragons and the other Regions won't let them.  So cleary money was there to spend

It couldn't be that the private investors are just rubbish at running clubs and that is why the Premiership, T14 & Welsh clubs spend loads yet underperform.  The old saying about spending other people's money comes to mind for the club's boards.

You really are a confused bunny, aren't you? Let's break this down for you, so hopefully you can grasp it:

1. Edinburgh were underperforming before Cockerill, that's why Cockerill was employed. The SRU spends £29m on its pro rugby - that's undeniable. That's what it SPENDS on pro rugby, not what it earns to spend. Do you see the difference? You have to earn £1 to spend £0.50p.
2. The cost base in Ireland is different from what it is in the Sterling economies. Do you understand this? Do you understand the difference between what a business has to turn over in order to what it needs to spend.
3. The "guy who sorted out the finances at the SRU" was the deal with BT Sport.
4. The SRU budget is £29m for professional rugby. That is the definition of a MASSIVE BUDGET. Do you understand this now? Again, you seem to be mentioning £40m because you don't understand the difference between turnover and spend.
5. The 'other regions' actively want the WRU to spend on the Dragons because every £1 spent on the Dragons also gets spent on them. The money that was there to do that has now gone.
6. The Premiership, T14 and Welsh clubs don't underperform compared to their spend. Anybody who knows anything about rugby history will know that.

So, in short, you're extremely confused, Brendan.

Brendan wrote:
Philbb you might not have seen this either.  Seems like some teams have even less money spent on wages then the Welsh teams.

What an irrelevant list as you've ignored cost of living, for starters.

Pot Hale wrote:

Unfortunately, they have been skewy because some of your written assumptions about the finances have been lacking in detail, partly due to ignorance - I had to enlighten you about these on a number of occasions.   It’s your prerogative to have an opinion about bias within the PRO14 - I won’t resort to calling it drivel though.

PS Welcome back to the weird world of 606v2 - it knocks big spots off Twitter.  

Love and kisses.  PH

That's complete revisionism, fair play. Or, in other words, fabrication.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
In fairness, Stone, Phil BB’s assertions about finances for both WRU and IRFU have been somewhat skewy in the past.  And he’s used the same assertions in other fora previously including his blog that you’ve linked above.    Saying that he is complimentary about IRFU finding is somewhat disingenuous given his oft-repeated use of phrases like Pro’14, and assumptions of Irish bias, incompetence, etc.   I notice you also like to use Pro’14 repeatedly like some permanent whinge - or is it a badge of honour amongst a select number of Welsh posting fans?

Drivel. And you should write better stuff than that.

Nothing has been "skewy". There is Irish bias in the league, it is run for the benefit of the Irish, so the "PrO'14" moniker is valid.

So the all powerful Irish have the league run for them on the basis that they get the WRU, SRU and FIR to voluntarily do things to make themselves weaker just so Ireland can win the PRO14, the HEC and the 6Ns ? In fact the WRU and SRU are such good friends of Ireland that they voted for France to host the RWC finals ahead of them.

Anyway, back to my point, the English don't want you or need you, so what is the way forward for rugby in Wales in the current set up. Like it or not it's literally the only game in town.

Irish Londoner wrote:
But if by your own admission that route is closed, and will remain so unless there is some sort of B & I league, what should the WRU, the Welsh club owners and the fans do? You can sit and snipe and wait for Bruce Craig and Nigel Wray to come calling before jilting you, or you can do something about it. Everybody wants Welsh rugby to thrive and would like to see Welsh teams competing the HEC and getting quarter and semi final spots, but there see,s to be disconnect in Wales which some people are projecting on the "Pro'12". It all sounds a bit like hearing Scottish football fans going on about "if Celtic and Rangers could play in the English Premier League we'd be giving the Liverpools and Chelseas a hammering every week."
The situation is what it is, so if one direction is closed isn't it time to get on with making the best of the hand you've got to play.
And regarding these millionaire owners, if they aren't putting their hands in their pockets now to get better players for the current sides, how are they going to try and keep up with the Premiership clubs?
I get that you (and quite a few other people) don't like the set up at it is but it's up to Wales to help itself rather than sniping at everyone else.

Ok, so the natural conclusion from this is that Wales moves to two teams. This will massively negatively affect the National Team and the development structure, because both require four teams, and so, eventually, the income from the national game that pays for those two teams will fail to keep pace with the costs of the game.

I wrote that in the blog.

As for why there would be more money in the English game for Welsh clubs than there is in the PrO'14, I really shouldn't have to explain something so fundamentally obvious.

carpet baboon wrote:Yes Phill is correct the WRU, SRU and the Italians all make sure the league is run specifically to benefit the Irish, as that's not a deluded I'm a victim mentality at all.

Just take a second to think about what your claiming, in your world your own Union and regions go out of there way to make sure us Irish are looked after first, and the Scots and the Italians do to.
So that's 3 unions and 8 teams all hurting themselves to help the Irish.
It's absolute bollix , but I suppose the only alternative would be to admit that maybe, just maybe the IRFU and provinces worked out how to run professional clubs better than your lot did.

But then you would have to stop playing the victim, and that suits you so well.
You and LD are so similar it's funny. Its always someone else's fault, the refs are biased, the league is a fix waa waa waa .

Next he will be calling everyone "champ" to prove his intellectual superiority.

Nobody is hurting themselves to look after the Irish. That's your extrapolation and a wholly false one at that. You're guessing at the consequences and guessing wrong.

I have no victim card to play, Champ.

marty2086 wrote:
Got to love Phil, tried making out on Twitter to his mate Simon Thomas he never said such things

Because I never did, as you couldn't prove. And Simon ruined you because your own intellectual shortcoming in being unable to differentiate between opinion and fact.

Not that you noticed and not that you asked yourself why you were getting smashed, of course. You just scuttled back here to a place of comfort where your shortcomings are pandered to and where you can ignore those giving you a pasting.

Irish Londoner wrote:
So the all powerful Irish have the league run for them on the basis that they get the WRU, SRU and FIR to voluntarily do things to make themselves weaker just so Ireland can win the PRO14, the HEC and the 6Ns ? In fact the WRU and SRU are such good friends of Ireland that they voted for France to host the RWC finals ahead of them.

Anyway, back to my point, the English don't want you or need you, so what is the way forward for rugby in Wales in the current set up. Like it or not it's literally the only game in town.

Oh, Christ, you've got the same false assumptions as that carpet bloke. It's good to see how that RWC vote still sticks in the throats of so many, however.

You may well be right about it being the only game in town. What I think that you're struggling to see is that it will make it the only game in town for not very long.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
How were the Southern Kings allowed to join the Pro 14? Even their provincial side couldn't get into the first division in the currie cup.

Because they (and their mates) brought a £6m a year TV contract with them.

Pot Hale wrote:
PS Welcome back to the weird world of 606v2 - it knocks big spots off Twitter.  

Does it balls, by the way

PhilBB wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:
But if by your own admission that route is closed, and will remain so unless there is some sort of B & I league, what should the WRU, the Welsh club owners and the fans do? You can sit and snipe and wait for Bruce Craig and Nigel Wray to come calling before jilting you, or you can do something about it. Everybody wants Welsh rugby to thrive and would like to see Welsh teams competing the HEC and getting quarter and semi final spots, but there see,s to be disconnect in Wales which some people are projecting on the "Pro'12". It all sounds a bit like hearing Scottish football fans going on about "if Celtic and Rangers could play in the English Premier League we'd be giving the Liverpools and Chelseas a hammering every week."
The situation is what it is, so if one direction is closed isn't it time to get on with making the best of the hand you've got to play.
And regarding these millionaire owners, if they aren't putting their hands in their pockets now to get better players for the current sides, how are they going to try and keep up with the Premiership clubs?
I get that you (and quite a few other people) don't like the set up at it is but it's up to Wales to help itself rather than sniping at everyone else.

Ok, so the natural conclusion from this is that Wales moves to two teams. This will massively negatively affect the National Team and the development structure, because both require four teams, and so, eventually, the income from the national game that pays for those two teams will fail to keep pace with the costs of the game.

I wrote that in the blog.

As for why there would be more money in the English game for Welsh clubs than there is in the PrO'14, I really shouldn't have to explain something so fundamentally obvious.

I can't understand, how in a thread entitled 'The Future of the Pro14' those harping on about 'making the best of it' can miss the point that two teams in the league are about to drop off the precipice, and what that means not just for the league but as a knock on international competition too. Staggering ignorance.

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
How were the Southern Kings allowed to join the Pro 14? Even their provincial side couldn't get into the first division in the currie cup.

Because they (and their mates) brought a £6m a year TV contract with them.

Surely actual first division clubs with actual fan bases such as the Griquas or Pumas would have brought the same tv deal. The Southern Kings are being pushed by the SARU because that's where the see the most potential for fulfilling their black player quotas nothing more.

Stone Motif wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:
But if by your own admission that route is closed, and will remain so unless there is some sort of B & I league, what should the WRU, the Welsh club owners and the fans do? You can sit and snipe and wait for Bruce Craig and Nigel Wray to come calling before jilting you, or you can do something about it. Everybody wants Welsh rugby to thrive and would like to see Welsh teams competing the HEC and getting quarter and semi final spots, but there see,s to be disconnect in Wales which some people are projecting on the "Pro'12". It all sounds a bit like hearing Scottish football fans going on about "if Celtic and Rangers could play in the English Premier League we'd be giving the Liverpools and Chelseas a hammering every week."
The situation is what it is, so if one direction is closed isn't it time to get on with making the best of the hand you've got to play.
And regarding these millionaire owners, if they aren't putting their hands in their pockets now to get better players for the current sides, how are they going to try and keep up with the Premiership clubs?
I get that you (and quite a few other people) don't like the set up at it is but it's up to Wales to help itself rather than sniping at everyone else.

Ok, so the natural conclusion from this is that Wales moves to two teams. This will massively negatively affect the National Team and the development structure, because both require four teams, and so, eventually, the income from the national game that pays for those two teams will fail to keep pace with the costs of the game.

I wrote that in the blog.

As for why there would be more money in the English game for Welsh clubs than there is in the PrO'14, I really shouldn't have to explain something so fundamentally obvious.

I can't understand, how in a thread entitled 'The Future of the Pro14' those harping on about 'making the best of it' can miss the point that two teams in the league are about to drop off the precipice, and what that means not just for the league but as a knock on international competition too. Staggering ignorance.

Phil of course there's more money in the English game, there's more money in the French game as well, maybe you should try contacting the FFR ? There can be untold riches in England, that does not change the fact that no-one outside England is getting their hands on it. Don't you think the Irish provinces would "snap the hand off" anyone who proposed a GB & I league with BT Sport TV money on the table ?

I mentioned the RWC vote as an illustration of how the other unions in the PRO14 are not under the thumb of the IRFU, which seems to contradict your position that the whole shebang is run for the benefit of Ireland.

It would be terrible if the number of Welsh teams reduced, it wasn't that long ago that there was talk of a fifth team wasn't there? That said what do you expect the PRO14 to do about it ?  

The future of the PRO14 is uncertain (like many things in the current times) but it is what it is. What is the actual problem that you have with the Irish set up, I genuinely don't understand it. The IRFU has gone down a different road to Wales and England in the way they run and fund the game, but it's not "cheating" it's a model that works for them. Wales have the option to follow whatever model they like, whether that means the WRU following an Irish/NZ model of close control or the English model of privately owned clubs and devil take the poorest/hindmost. That's up to them but I don't understand how what Ireland or Scotland or Italy or anyone else does disadvantages Welsh rugby.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:
Philbb you might not have seen this either.  Seems like some teams have even less money spent on wages then the Welsh teams.

What an irrelevant list as you've ignored cost of living, for starters.

Just like we are constantly told living in Wales is cheaper and one of the poorest places in Europe I posted the Big Mac Index to compare price comparisons. I would say SA is a third the cost of living in Ireland so kings still well under the Dragons wage bill

Stone Motif wrote:

I can't understand, how in a thread entitled 'The Future of the Pro14' those harping on about 'making the best of it' can miss the point that two teams in the league are about to drop off the precipice, and what that means not just for the league but as a knock on international competition too. Staggering ignorance.

You have to understand the narrative that has been fed to them for a couple of decades, about the big bad English and French. About how PRL ruined the Heineken Cup (by immediately bringing in more revenue through it), how the good Irish boys stay at home for de craic and der jer-seee, not for money (even though the IRFU accounts disprove this).

Any dose of actual factual reality to disprove this state of mind simply cannot be comprehended, let alone tolerated, let alone accepted after researching its veracity.

Look at that clown Marty. He argued with me for months that the IRFU didn't hold all of the player contracts. And he's a bloke actively engaged with his rugby team, so you'd expect him to know something, so if you consider him "engaged" just think how pig ignorant most are.