The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

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South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Surely actual first division clubs with actual fan bases such as the Griquas or Pumas would have brought the same tv deal. The Southern Kings are being pushed by the SARU because that's where the see the most potential for fulfilling their black player quotas nothing more.

Well as it was SARU who set up the deal, you've answered your own question as to why the other two didn't get the gig.

Irish Londoner wrote:
Phil of course there's more money in the English game, there's more money in the French game as well, maybe you should try contacting the FFR ? There can be untold riches in England, that does not change the fact that no-one outside England is getting their hands on it. Don't you think the Irish provinces would "snap the hand off" anyone who proposed a GB & I league with BT Sport TV money on the table ?

I mentioned the RWC vote as an illustration of how the other unions in the PRO14 are not under the thumb of the IRFU, which seems to contradict your position that the whole shebang is run for the benefit of Ireland.

It would be terrible if the number of Welsh teams reduced, it wasn't that long ago that there was talk of a fifth team wasn't there? That said what do you expect the PRO14 to do about it ?  

The future of the PRO14 is uncertain (like many things in the current times) but it is what it is. What is the actual problem that you have with the Irish set up, I genuinely don't understand it. The IRFU has gone down a different road to Wales and England in the way they run and fund the game, but it's not "cheating" it's a model that works for them. Wales have the option to follow whatever model they like, whether that means the WRU following an Irish/NZ model of close control or the English model of privately owned clubs and devil take the poorest/hindmost. That's up to them but I don't understand how what Ireland or Scotland or Italy or anyone else does disadvantages Welsh rugby.

The Irish provinces have no autonomy to "bite off" any hand. They don't exist outside of the IRFU. They are just departments of the IRFU.

If you think that a vote on a separate agenda is sufficient to disprove the fact that the PrO'14 is run for the benefit of the IRFU then you really are struggling with basic logic.

What do I expect the PrO'14 to do about the financial difficulties of Welsh rugby? Nothing. I've not asked for them to do anything about it, so why are you asking me such a stupid question?

The problem with the Irish set up (AND Scottish) is that it stifles competition. It has set the league up to be third in the list of relevance for four of its entrants, so its no surprise that the league doesn't generate enough revenue. It's a training ground, a means to an end, it's not a fair or level competition. Therefore, it prevents Welsh clubs from playing in a more profitable environment and, guess what, we are now seeing the results of that.

The Irish and NZ models are vastly different, of course, but let's not get into that right now.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:

So what you are saying is the season before Cockerill took over Edinburgh, their ok form was them doing as expected.  Suddenly he came in the spent massive amounts of money to finish 3rd in the Conference with 15 wins out of 21 games.  He then spent massive more money once back in the Champs Cup to be top of their group and in with a shout of a home Quarter.

Oh wait, that's not what happened.  £28m to get two teams into the Champs quarters.  The SRU also voted against the IRFU for 2023 yet seem to be doing fine in the league.  If you honestly believe that the provinces are running on £20m a year they must have a leprechaun feeding them his pot of gold to make things balanced in the IRFU. After all that would be £80m a year just to run the mens provinces.

I would highly suggest that the WRU hire the guy who sorted the finances at the SRU.  I think from a finance point of view to be where they are now compared to the dark days is unbelievable. They also seem to be able to get good coaches and good squads on not a massive budget.  If as you suggest it is costing them £40m for the 2 teams plus the £5m they wanted to invest plus the Super 6 money they must also have pixies in their vaults.

The WRU has more bills that's fine but to claim that they can't spend more on the Regions is a lie.  They could if they wanted to they chose not to.  Yes they might have the money going places now but that is their choice.  It also doesn't help when the WRU try and invest in the Dragons and the other Regions won't let them.  So cleary money was there to spend

It couldn't be that the private investors are just rubbish at running clubs and that is why the Premiership, T14 & Welsh clubs spend loads yet underperform.  The old saying about spending other people's money comes to mind for the club's boards.

You really are a confused bunny, aren't you? Let's break this down for you, so hopefully you can grasp it:

1. Edinburgh were underperforming before Cockerill, that's why Cockerill was employed. The SRU spends £29m on its pro rugby - that's undeniable. That's what it SPENDS on pro rugby, not what it earns to spend. Do you see the difference? You have to earn £1 to spend £0.50p.
2. The cost base in Ireland is different from what it is in the Sterling economies. Do you understand this? Do you understand the difference between what a business has to turn over in order to what it needs to spend.
3. The "guy who sorted out the finances at the SRU" was the deal with BT Sport.
4. The SRU budget is £29m for professional rugby. That is the definition of a MASSIVE BUDGET. Do you understand this now? Again, you seem to be mentioning £40m because you don't understand the difference between turnover and spend.
5. The 'other regions' actively want the WRU to spend on the Dragons because every £1 spent on the Dragons also gets spent on them. The money that was there to do that has now gone.
6. The Premiership, T14 and Welsh clubs don't underperform compared to their spend. Anybody who knows anything about rugby history will know that.

So, in short, you're extremely confused, Brendan.

Philbb the blog claimed that Exeter a turnover of £20m, as they make a small profit (mainly due to funds given rather than loaned to the club) so we will say costs of £19m. For the Scottish clubs (Who are in the sterling market) to compete according to the blog they would have to spend the same as the costs for running the Scottish clubs is the same as the English clubs. I was showing that was rubbish but again you answered the questions you wanted to not what was asked.

I do understand what turnover is and spend is. Most of the private owned clubs are spending more than their turnover. As I have stated Chiefs spend must be at least 19m as they don't have massive profits. Like it or lump it with a game to go in Europe and over half way through the league the Scottish teams are again showing that they are a cut above the Welsh Regions and will soon catch up to them at international once they learn to win away.

The BT money did not sort the SRU Finances unless you mean the SRU took sponsorship money. Maybe you should write to the WRU telling them they should be better at getting sponsorship. The SRU now have healthy finances and a clear model of how they want to run the professional setup. The £5m a year they were looking to put into a premiership team.

The problem in Wales is simply it is private teams wanting to be union teams.

Brendan wrote:
Just like we are constantly told living in Wales is cheaper and one of the poorest places in Europe I posted the Big Mac Index to compare price comparisons.  I would say SA is a third the cost of living in Ireland so kings still well under the Dragons wage bill

What's the relevance of this to Wales being unable to afford four professional rugby teams, sorry?

Brendan wrote:
Philbb the blog claimed that Exeter a turnover of £20m, as they make a small profit (mainly due to funds given rather than loaned to the club) so we will say costs of £19m.  For the Scottish clubs (Who are in the sterling market) to compete according to the blog they would have to spend the same as the costs for running the Scottish clubs is the same as the English clubs.  I was showing that was rubbish but again you answered the questions you wanted to not what was asked.

I do understand what turnover is and spend is.  Most of the private owned clubs are spending more than their turnover. As I have stated Chiefs spend must be at least 19m as they don't have massive profits.  Like it or lump it with a game to go in Europe and over half way through the league the Scottish teams are again showing that they are a cut above the Welsh Regions and will soon catch up to them at international once they learn to win away.

The BT money did not sort the SRU Finances unless you mean the SRU took sponsorship money.  Maybe you should write to the WRU telling them they should be better at getting sponsorship.  The SRU now have healthy finances and a clear model of how they want to run the professional setup.  The £5m a year they were looking to put into a premiership team.

The problem in Wales is simply it is private teams wanting to be union teams.

FFS. You cannot understand that the EXPENDITURE on the professional game in Scotland is £29m. The INCOME of the SRU was £57m.

You can't seem to get your head around the fact that different businesses will have different cost bases because they do different things.

Scotland won't catch up with Wales whilst one has two teams and the other has four, of course.

And of course BT Sport's input was a huge sponsorship deal thanks to the signing of EPCR (something that the then Chief Executive of the WRU cost Welsh rugby millions over).

And that final sentence is pure ignorance. Ignorance personified. I bet that you could not even justify your thought process behind writing that.

PhilBB wrote:

If you think that a vote on a separate agenda is sufficient to disprove the fact that the PrO'14 is run for the benefit of the IRFU then you really are struggling with basic logic.  

No.  You - you are endlessly struggling with basic logic when you drag rubbish in as quantifiable fact.  It's crud, that's what that supposition is - crud.

Like I always say, you don't want Welsh regions in the Pro14 - Period.  That's much simpler to say.  Just keep stamping your feet and saying that - it's your only honest argument.

Irish teams benefit from the Pro14 because the Irish structure works.  It ain't rocket science.  

The European Cup was fundamentally changed by the big boys from England and France.  I don't think Irish provinces are 'running' that competition any more - as was the implied allegations at the time pre-change.  And yet, here we are.  Irish provinces adapted again, got in the right people and started talking again where it really only matters - the field of play.  

The Irish structure proves its worth again.  Hell, even Mr Rugby Brain himself, McGeechan, says the Irish way is really the only way.
But nope............. bury the head in the sand and dream up instead the evil IRFU plan in operation to destroy Welsh, Scottish, Italian and SA rugby. I love Evil Plans. Box office stuff.

Brendan wrote:

The problem in Wales is simply it is private teams wanting to be union teams.

Hear! hear! Excellent brain capacity point there Brendan. Hope the general intellect operating on these boards is sufficient to grasp that. I live in hope.

SecretFly wrote:

No.  You - you are endlessly struggling with basic logic when you drag rubbish in as quantifiable fact.  It's crud, that's what that supposition is - crud.

Like I always say, you don't want Welsh regions in the Pro14 - Period.  That's much simpler to say.  Just keep stamping your feet and saying that - it's your only honest argument.

Irish teams benefit from the Pro14 because the Irish structure works.  It ain't rocket science.  

The European Cup was fundamentally changed by the big boys from England and France.  I don't think Irish provinces are 'running' that competition any more - as was the implied allegations at the time pre-change.  And yet, here we are.  Irish provinces adapted again, got in the right people and started talking again where it really only matters - the field of play.  

The Irish structure proves its worth again.  Hell, even Mr Rugby Brain himself, McGeechan, says the Irish way is really the only way.
But nope............. bury the head in the sand and dream up instead the evil IRFU plan in operation to destroy Welsh, Scottish, Italian and SA rugby.  I love Evil Plans.  Box office stuff.

Jesus, if that's what you come up with when you're not trying to be funny (and failing) then no wonder you do it so infrequently.

I love how a brief moment in the sun and the Irish Rugby Followers claim "our way is the best". The huge number of Grand Slam wins must be convincing you of thi..... oh, hang on.

PhilBB wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:
Phil of course there's more money in the English game, there's more money in the French game as well, maybe you should try contacting the FFR ? There can be untold riches in England, that does not change the fact that no-one outside England is getting their hands on it. Don't you think the Irish provinces would "snap the hand off" anyone who proposed a GB & I league with BT Sport TV money on the table ?

I mentioned the RWC vote as an illustration of how the other unions in the PRO14 are not under the thumb of the IRFU, which seems to contradict your position that the whole shebang is run for the benefit of Ireland.

It would be terrible if the number of Welsh teams reduced, it wasn't that long ago that there was talk of a fifth team wasn't there? That said what do you expect the PRO14 to do about it ?  

The future of the PRO14 is uncertain (like many things in the current times) but it is what it is. What is the actual problem that you have with the Irish set up, I genuinely don't understand it. The IRFU has gone down a different road to Wales and England in the way they run and fund the game, but it's not "cheating" it's a model that works for them. Wales have the option to follow whatever model they like, whether that means the WRU following an Irish/NZ model of close control or the English model of privately owned clubs and devil take the poorest/hindmost. That's up to them but I don't understand how what Ireland or Scotland or Italy or anyone else does disadvantages Welsh rugby.

The Irish provinces have no autonomy to "bite off" any hand. They don't exist outside of the IRFU. They are just departments of the IRFU.

If you think that a vote on a separate agenda is sufficient to disprove the fact that the PrO'14 is run for the benefit of the IRFU then you really are struggling with basic logic.

What do I expect the PrO'14 to do about the financial difficulties of Welsh rugby? Nothing. I've not asked for them to do anything about it, so why are you asking me such a stupid question?

The problem with the Irish set up (AND Scottish) is that it stifles competition. It has set the league up to be third in the list of relevance for four of its entrants, so its no surprise that the league doesn't generate enough revenue. It's a training ground, a means to an end, it's not a fair or level competition. Therefore, it prevents Welsh clubs from playing in a more profitable environment and, guess what, we are now seeing the results of that.

The Irish and NZ models are vastly different, of course, but let's not get into that right now.

Well OK my bad - the IRFU would bite the hand off anyone suggesting a B & I league. The provinces would go along because of the benefits it would bring - the IRFU "own" the provinces but the provinces in return have a lot of say in how the IRFU is run, it's called cooperation and has saved Irish rugby from a lot of the "owners" v "unions" problems of other countries.

Can you give some examples of the IRFU railroading the rest into things please ? The base in Ireland is as everyone knows a tax dodge, same as when the HEC moved from Dublin, it went to Switzerland not London, Paris or Cardiff.

If you don't expect the PRO14 to do anything why are you so angry about them ?

If the set up stifles competition then how come that Scarlets won it less than two seasons ago? And if the Irish choose to prioritise players for certain games or competitions what's wrong with that, every club does that, either in rugby or in other sports, how many teams put out full strength sides in the FA Cup Third round a couple of weeks ago.

As for preventing Welsh clubs playing a more profitable environment where should they go - for the umpteenth time England don't want you and never will.

From the things you say if you want to direct your anger at anyone it should be the WRU and the teams who agree the deals. The problems are on your own doorstep not in Dublin, Galway, Limerick or Belfast.

SecretFly wrote:

Brendan wrote:

The problem in Wales is simply it is private teams wanting to be union teams.

Hear! hear!  Excellent brain capacity point there Brendan.  Hope the general intellect operating on these boards is sufficient to grasp that.  I live in hope.

Go on then, explain it.

Explain how Cardiff Blues are wanting to be a "union team", but do start by telling us what a "union team" actually is.

I'm sure that you're capable of explaining it else you wouldn't have written the post I quoted. And I appreciate that your sole answer to this will be to try to write something funny (but failing again) because you'll be unable to explain it, but the challenge is there for you now.

See if you can surprise me.

Irish Londoner wrote:
Well OK my bad - the IRFU would bite the hand off anyone suggesting a B & I league. The provinces would go along because of the benefits it would bring - the IRFU "own" the provinces but the provinces in return have a lot of say in how the IRFU is run, it's called cooperation and has saved Irish rugby from a lot of the "owners" v "unions" problems of other countries.

Can you give some examples of the IRFU railroading the rest into things please ? The base in Ireland is as everyone knows a tax dodge, same as when the HEC moved from Dublin, it went to Switzerland not London, Paris or Cardiff.

If you don't expect the PRO14 to do anything why are you so angry about them ?

If the set up stifles competition then how come that Scarlets won it less than two seasons ago? And if the Irish choose to prioritise players for certain games or competitions what's wrong with that, every club does that, either in rugby or in other sports, how many teams put out full strength sides in the FA Cup Third round a couple of weeks ago.

As for preventing Welsh clubs playing a more profitable environment where should they go - for the umpteenth time England don't want you and never will.

From the things you say if you want to direct your anger at anyone it should be the WRU and the teams who agree the deals. The problems are on your own doorstep not in Dublin, Galway, Limerick or Belfast.

It's not called co-operation at all. It's called Master / Slave. The "provinces" are just internal departments, they have no autonomy to agree or disagree.

I can give no example of any railroading as I've never suggested any railroading has happened.

I'm not angry about the PrO'14.

Welsh teams have won it (almost) as many times as Irish teams, but that doesn't negate the fact that fair competition is stifled by Nucifora and Browne weighting teams as they see fit. That whole exercise is clearly designed to stifle fair competition. It doesn't need any further explanations. I don't know many teams in other sports who send second teams out to play derbies, by the way.

As for the English "Don't want you", well we've had two occasions where they have wanted "us". I believe the WRU should be doing all that it can to ensure an way in to PRL - just as the FIR did into the PrO'14, just as SARU did.

My "anger" is solely directed at the WRU. It's the chippy Irish rugby follower who thinks that highlighting the IRFU sourced major fault lines within the PrO'14 is somehow aimed at them. I've written it plenty of times: the IRFU can do what it likes and good on it for doing what it likes.

I can't really make this any clearer.

PhilBB wrote:

I love how a brief moment in the sun and the Irish Rugby Followers claim "our way is the best". The huge number of Grand Slam wins must be convincing you of thi..... oh, hang on.

The past is the past. The present is the present. There's another brain box lesson for ya, Phil. And that one was free on me.

One day, indeed, Chicken Farmers will scientifically make the best Rugby team owners. I can see it coming because of the brain capacity of most Chicken Farm owners - it's on a different level. Their destiny is rugby team ownership.

............... but for now, in the present (not the future/not the past) the present structure that works best for club and International success is the Irish one.

But you keep fixating on Pro14 hatred. That's your only Honest argument.

SecretFly wrote:
The past is the past.  The present is the present.  

Ok. So if Ireland fail to win a RWC knock out game again, you'll be campaigning to change the system.

Right?

You know, because the present will be the present and the present will be a failure.

Right?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
The past is the past.  The present is the present.  

Ok. So if Ireland fail to win a RWC knock out game again, you'll be campaigning to change the system.

Right?

You know, because the present will be the present and the present will be a failure.

Right?

No.  Life is a law of averages, Phil.  In your more sober moments, you know this to be true.  

Irish rugby has been growing and growing - all through the Professional age (because of attention to structure).  
It wasn't a smooth graph (law of averages) but it was an upward curve all the way (law of averages).  

Wales could win the 6N and Scotland could win the WC - Irish rugby will still grow in the right direction - upward.  

So I'm on the train.  How many years ago now was the 'Golden Generation' on the go?  That was supposedly our moment in the sun, wasn't it.  Everybody knew things would quickly go downhill when the 'Golden Generation' began to retire. But structure attention to detail made that a bum prediction.  

Of course Ireland will plateau in its 'growth', and it'll have bad seasons (law of averages) - but our structure is sound.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
The past is the past.  The present is the present.  

Ok. So if Ireland fail to win a RWC knock out game again, you'll be campaigning to change the system.

Right?

You know, because the present will be the present and the present will be a failure.

Right?

No.  Life is a law of averages, Phil.  In your more sober moments, you know this to be true.  

Irish rugby has been growing and growing - all through the Professional age (because of attention to structure).  
It wasn't a smooth graph (law of averages) but it was an upward curve all the way (law of averages).  

Wales could win the 6N and Scotland could win the WC - Irish rugby will still grow in the right direction - upward.  

So I'm on the train.  How many years ago now was the 'Golden Generation' on the go?  That was supposedly our moment in the sun, wasn't it.  Everybody knew things would quickly go downhill when the 'Golden Generation' began to retire. But structure attention to detail made that a bum prediction.  

Of course Ireland will plateau in its 'growth', and it'll have bad seasons (law of averages) - but our structure is sound.

So life has gone from "the present is the present" to "life is a law of averages" in under half an hour.

And now, seemingly, the structure isn't dependent upon success.

There's a few "brain box lessons for ya", it seems.

Plus, of course, you're still to answer the question about what a "union team" is etc. but I knew that you couldn't answer that just as I knew that you couldn't hold any coherent line of thought, as you've proven with your flip flopping in the last few minutes.

You think you're a joker when, in reality, you're just a joke. Somebody unable to hold a coherent line of thought with any kind of honesty.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Brendan wrote:

The problem in Wales is simply it is private teams wanting to be union teams.

Hear! hear!  Excellent brain capacity point there Brendan.  Hope the general intellect operating on these boards is sufficient to grasp that.  I live in hope.

Go on then, explain it.

Explain how Cardiff Blues are wanting to be a "union team", but do start by telling us what a "union team" actually is.

I'm sure that you're capable of explaining it else you wouldn't have written the post I quoted. And I appreciate that your sole answer to this will be to try to write something funny (but failing again) because you'll be unable to explain it, but the challenge is there for you now.

See if you can surprise me.

Tick tock, tick tock.....

You're a mouse on a treadmill, Phil.  You've talked oceans and you're still running around the same little course.  The Lab people forgot to come back I suppose.  Keep running.

Meanwhile, the Regions want WRU money and the pleasure of telling the WRU to 'f**k off' in their Thank You notes.

Explanation?  Run over your own endless detailed upon detail posts these last number of years...... it's all in there.  And if that bores you then ask the champion of the little rugby people, chairman of the WRU, Gareth Davies. He was the saviour, wasn't he.

I see Phill is still deluded in believing the English want them.
Being nice to you every time they want you to vote there way is not love Phil, it's simple manipulation and your so blinded by your need to be wanted you fall for it every time.
How your heart aches for your unrequited love, poor Phill, poor Phil.


Also I do love Phil's demands that everyone explains themselves to him, whilst telling everyone else they are stupid for not understand his claims, although he offers no proof for his perception of things.

Don't go changing Phill your tantrums keep us all entertained

SecretFly wrote:You're a mouse on a treadmill, Phil.  You've talked oceans and you're still running around the same little course.  The Lab people forgot to come back I suppose.  Keep running.

Meanwhile, the Regions want WRU money and the pleasure of telling the WRU to 'f**k off' in their Thank You notes.

Explanation?  Run over your own endless detailed upon detail posts these last number of years...... it's all in there.  And if that bores you then ask the champion of the little rugby people, chairman of the WRU, Gareth Davies.  He was the saviour, wasn't he.

Thanks for underlining my point so well. You're empty - you throw it out but scuttle when challenged.

carpet baboon wrote:I see Phill is still deluded in believing the English want them.

Well, let's see if the baboon can prove that.

Go on, give it a go. Justify that claim.

carpet baboon wrote:I see Phill is still deluded in believing the English want them.
although he offers no proof for his perception of things.

One post, two lies.

Top work.

"As for the English "Don't want you", well we've had two occasions where they have wanted "us". I believe the WRU should be doing all that it can to ensure an way in to PRL"

Errr they you go Phil... Your words, your hunger for them laid bare by your own words

PhilBB wrote:

So life has gone from "the present is the present" to "life is a law of averages" in under half an hour.

And now, seemingly, the structure isn't dependent upon success.

There's a few "brain box lessons for ya", it seems.

Plus, of course, you're still to answer the question about what a "union team" is etc. but I knew that you couldn't answer that just as I knew that you couldn't hold any coherent line of thought, as you've proven with your flip flopping in the last few minutes.

You think you're a joker when, in reality, you're just a joke. Somebody unable to hold a coherent line of thought with any kind of honesty.

Wonderful post, Phil. You really do love your job as paid heckler. "Boo! Hiss! Boo!"

I am wrong. I stand corrected. The present is the present. We are a better side than the ABs.... and one game in November is enough evidence to tell us this.

So the Irish structure is better than even I thought. No.1 side in the World!

I'm sure you believe that? Law of averages.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You're a mouse on a treadmill, Phil.  You've talked oceans and you're still running around the same little course.  The Lab people forgot to come back I suppose.  Keep running.

Meanwhile, the Regions want WRU money and the pleasure of telling the WRU to 'f**k off' in their Thank You notes.

Explanation?  Run over your own endless detailed upon detail posts these last number of years...... it's all in there.  And if that bores you then ask the champion of the little rugby people, chairman of the WRU, Gareth Davies.  He was the saviour, wasn't he.

Thanks for underlining my point so well. You're empty - you throw it out but scuttle when challenged.

I'm answering you but I'm not going to write you a bible of bullschidt to do so. That's your job

carpet baboon wrote:"As for the English "Don't want you", well we've had two occasions where they have wanted "us". I believe the WRU should be doing all that it can to ensure an way in to PRL"

Errr they you go Phil... Your words, your hunger for them laid bare by your own words

That quote in no way suggests that PRL want Welsh teams now. If they did want them, I wouldn't suggest that the WRU goes to them, would I?

Come on, at least try a little. If you're going to be a crap liar don't then try to justify it with an attempt at logic that would shame an 8 year old.

SecretFly wrote:

Wonderful post, Phil.   You really do love your job as paid heckler.  "Boo!  Hiss! Boo!"

I am wrong.  I stand corrected.  The present is the present.  We are a better side than the ABs.... and one game in November is enough evidence to tell us this.  

So the Irish structure is better than even I thought.  No.1 side in the World!  

I'm sure you believe that?  Law of averages.

It's a lovely spaghetti of words, but it's completely incoherent. Your small brain is clearly telling you "write something, anything, just write words so that, hopefully, nobody can see that I cannot sustain a coherent train of thought or justify the previous bullpwp that I've produced. More. Words."

Desperately sad behaviour from an adult, it really is.

carpet baboon wrote:"As for the English "Don't want you", well we've had two occasions where they have wanted "us". I believe the WRU should be doing all that it can to ensure an way in to PRL"

Errr they you go Phil... Your words, your hunger for them laid bare by your own words

Explain the word Belief, hotshot!  Phil didn't even mean believe - he meant something different that might take two years of posts to explain fully.

We don't got time Phil!   WW3 might be upon us this year.  We have to get this Pro14 thing solves sooner than the next millennium.

SecretFly wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:"As for the English "Don't want you", well we've had two occasions where they have wanted "us". I believe the WRU should be doing all that it can to ensure an way in to PRL"

Errr they you go Phil... Your words, your hunger for them laid bare by your own words

Explain the word Belief, hotshot!  Phil dodn't even mean believe - he meant something different that might take two years of posts to explain fully.

We don't got time Phil!   WW3 might be upon us this year.  We have to get this Pro14 thing solves sooner than the next millennium.

I explained it above, you gibbering halfwit.

Explain the word 'explain'.

tick tock, tick tock...

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:"As for the English "Don't want you", well we've had two occasions where they have wanted "us". I believe the WRU should be doing all that it can to ensure an way in to PRL"

Errr they you go Phil... Your words, your hunger for them laid bare by your own words

That quote in no way suggests that PRL want Welsh teams now. If they did want them, I wouldn't suggest that the WRU goes to them, would I?

Come on, at least try a little. If you're going to be a crap liar don't then try to justify it with an attempt at logic that would shame an 8 year old.

My god Phill, your seething rage has made you incapable of understanding English.
Your unrequited love Phil, yours.

You do love to try and belittle folk don't you Phil. Poorly might I add but you do try. Bless you

PhilBB wrote:More. Words."

Desperately sad behaviour from an adult, it really is.

I know Phil. I've been saying brevity in your posts might better explain your real argument.... i.e., you don't care whether Pro14 works or doesn't work - you hate the Pro14, hate the Irish involvement in it and ...................... em.................. that's about it. The other endless stuff is just hollow words.

carpet baboon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:"As for the English "Don't want you", well we've had two occasions where they have wanted "us". I believe the WRU should be doing all that it can to ensure an way in to PRL"

Errr they you go Phil... Your words, your hunger for them laid bare by your own words

That quote in no way suggests that PRL want Welsh teams now. If they did want them, I wouldn't suggest that the WRU goes to them, would I?

Come on, at least try a little. If you're going to be a crap liar don't then try to justify it with an attempt at logic that would shame an 8 year old.

My god Phill, your seething rage has made you incapable of understanding English.
Your unrequited love Phil, yours.

You do love to try and belittle folk don't you Phil. Poorly might I add but you do try. Bless you

Well, that was the obvious attempt-at-face-saving retort that seems so common on this board.

And, as ever, it failed.

Nowhere have I written that PRL "want" the Welsh teams, as per your deliberately false claim.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:More. Words."

Desperately sad behaviour from an adult, it really is.

I know Phil.  I've been saying brevity in your posts might better explain your real argument.... i.e., you don't care whether Pro14 works or doesn't work - you hate the Pro14, hate the Irish involvement in it and ...................... em.................. that's about it.  The other endless stuff is just hollow words.

Thanks for underlining your capability of comprehension.

Pot Hale wrote:
PS Welcome back to the weird world of 606v2 - it knocks big spots off Twitter.  

I think that the downright dishonest behaviour of a number of your fellow contributors to this board will mean that you don't really mean what you've written there.

So the prl are unlikely to want a joint league. The teams in the pro 14 will continue to have different models. LD is spot on for once. Support your local Welsh prem side.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:"As for the English "Don't want you", well we've had two occasions where they have wanted "us". I believe the WRU should be doing all that it can to ensure an way in to PRL"

Errr they you go Phil... Your words, your hunger for them laid bare by your own words

That quote in no way suggests that PRL want Welsh teams now. If they did want them, I wouldn't suggest that the WRU goes to them, would I?

Come on, at least try a little. If you're going to be a crap liar don't then try to justify it with an attempt at logic that would shame an 8 year old.

My god Phill, your seething rage has made you incapable of understanding English.
Your unrequited love Phil, yours.

You do love to try and belittle folk don't you Phil. Poorly might I add but you do try. Bless you

Well, that was the obvious attempt-at-face-saving retort that seems so common on this board.

And, as ever, it failed.

Nowhere have I written that PRL "want" the Welsh teams, as per your deliberately false claim.

Haha you really can't read.

Phil it's you that want the PRL. You phil. Not the WRU. Not PRL. You and your love for the English

carpet baboon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:"As for the English "Don't want you", well we've had two occasions where they have wanted "us". I believe the WRU should be doing all that it can to ensure an way in to PRL"

Errr they you go Phil... Your words, your hunger for them laid bare by your own words

That quote in no way suggests that PRL want Welsh teams now. If they did want them, I wouldn't suggest that the WRU goes to them, would I?

Come on, at least try a little. If you're going to be a crap liar don't then try to justify it with an attempt at logic that would shame an 8 year old.

My god Phill, your seething rage has made you incapable of understanding English.
Your unrequited love Phil, yours.

You do love to try and belittle folk don't you Phil. Poorly might I add but you do try. Bless you

Well, that was the obvious attempt-at-face-saving retort that seems so common on this board.

And, as ever, it failed.

Nowhere have I written that PRL "want" the Welsh teams, as per your deliberately false claim.

Haha you really can't read.

Phil it's you that want the PRL. You phil. Not the WRU. Not PRL. You and your love for the English

Sanity is optional in this thread....

Staggering levels of comprehension, delusion and mistruth in this thread. Not one poster is able to address Phil's points and have a coherent argument. Brendan seemingly tried but got a bit lost in the financials and then very bizarrely said the Welsh regions wanted to be Union run sides. I did laugh at that. Isn't that the very thing they've been fighting to avoid becoming for 15 years?

At this point, the Pro14 is such an invalid, turgid, pointless competiton, I'd much rather take a punt on the Championship and play Cornish pirates and Ealing Trailfinders for a few years in the hope that we somehow get osmosized into the English structure.

It would be a risk worth taking as we are going to die soon stuck in this hellhole that is the awful Pro14.

And you'd flourish with Ealing trailfinders?

Just so I've got this right Phil:
1 - You would like the Welsh teams to join the English teams ?
2 - You think that the Irish provinces have no say whatsoever in how the IRFU is run ?
3 - You don't like the way the PRO14 is structured because you think it favours the Irish as they rest and rotate players and manage their welfare in order to prioritise the HEC and international game?

1 - Fully understand why you want that, it would bring in a lot more money to the Welsh clubs, however you also understand that it is very unlikely to happen. The last time the PRL fluttered it's eyelashes at Wales during the HEC restructure nothing came of it because when push came to shove there were a host of reasons (went over at the time) why it was a non starter. That position has not changed and with the influx of the CVC money why do the PRL need Welsh clubs, they might want to reform the English league somewhat and ringfence it but I can't see how Welsh clubs fit into that structure. If there was a window for this it's long closed and it would take a seismic change in domestic rugby to reopen it - maybe if the owners try a breakaway league they might invite the Welsh teams but could the Welsh afford to play with the big boys financially?
2 - That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Given that after the international matches the provinces are the major revenue generators then I'd suggest they have some input.
3 - The core problem with the PRO14 structure is the travel which reduces the number of away fans who travel- we all agree that, however until such time as a B & I League it's the way it is. If you have some suggestions for reforming it I'd be interested to hear them, rather than just complaints. What would make the PRO14 better for you and do you think most other Welsh fans feel the same ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:Staggering levels of comprehension, delusion and mistruth in this thread. Not one poster is able to address Phil's points and have a coherent argument. Brendan seemingly tried but got a bit lost in the financials and then very bizarrely said the Welsh regions wanted to be Union run sides. I did laugh at that. Isn't that the very thing they've been fighting to avoid becoming for 15 years?

At this point, the Pro14 is such an invalid, turgid, pointless competiton, I'd much rather take a punt on the Championship and play Cornish pirates and Ealing Trailfinders for a few years in the hope that we somehow get osmosized into the English structure.

It would be a risk worth taking as we are going to die soon stuck in this hellhole that is the awful Pro14.

Good points - go for it.  The Pro14 circus could degenerate back to a Pro10 (4 Irish/2 Scottish/2 Italian/2 SA).

The trick is to go with your hearts.  That's all it needs to be.  Fight for the exit (amongst yourselves).  rather than constantly niggle. Just set in motion the Welsh centric 606 debate threads for exit from Pro14. Positive Threads on possible futures.


Oh and on the first bit.... the 15 years fighting the WRU?  I go back to Gareth Davies - he was the saviour to help that process along, wasn't he....when he became WRU chairman.
He joined the beast to kill the beast but the beast has gotten stronger?  Bad plan maybe.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Staggering levels of comprehension, delusion and mistruth in this thread. Not one poster is able to address Phil's points and have a coherent argument. Brendan seemingly tried but got a bit lost in the financials and then very bizarrely said the Welsh regions wanted to be Union run sides. I did laugh at that. Isn't that the very thing they've been fighting to avoid becoming for 15 years?

At this point, the Pro14 is such an invalid, turgid, pointless competiton, I'd much rather take a punt on the Championship and play Cornish pirates and Ealing Trailfinders for a few years in the hope that we somehow get osmosized into the English structure.

It would be a risk worth taking as we are going to die soon stuck in this hellhole that is the awful Pro14.

And we're back to why would Ealing want you ? It's their league and apart from the political shotstorm that would follow (the championship is owned/managed by the RFU) what would the Welsh bring to the party?
If they bring good teams then the other English clubs won't want rivals who might take the Premiership place away from them, if they are weaker than the English sides are the fans going to turn out to watch Scarlets V Doncaster in large numbers, how do the clubs get by without European rugby and the TV money from that, would the WRU give funding to clubs playing outside their jurisdiction, would they be allowed to, e.g. how would the RFU/PRL react if the IRFU took on London Irish as a "fifth province" based in England.

SecretFly wrote:

Brendan wrote:

The problem in Wales is simply it is private teams wanting to be union teams.

Hear! hear!  Excellent brain capacity point there Brendan.  Hope the general intellect operating on these boards is sufficient to grasp that.  I live in hope.

Glad someone understood it
If they are private teams they get paid by the union to use the players. If they are union teams they get as much cash as the union deems they need.
Seems that for Philbb that point is to comlicated

Brendan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Brendan wrote:

The problem in Wales is simply it is private teams wanting to be union teams.

Hear! hear!  Excellent brain capacity point there Brendan.  Hope the general intellect operating on these boards is sufficient to grasp that.  I live in hope.

Glad someone understood it
If they are private teams they get paid by the union to use the players.  If they are union teams they get as much cash as the union deems they need.
Seems that for Philbb that point is to comlicated

Wasn't there a case a number of years back whereby the WRU and Regions had agreed a deal around finances etc and then within a matter of months the regions were publically complaining about it saying the WRU had shafted them?

Why do the Welsh always want to piggy back on the back of English success?

Surely its time they ran an independence campaign, I strongly hoped Scotland voted to stay as part of the union but would sure as hell back Welsh independence

Brendan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Brendan wrote:

The problem in Wales is simply it is private teams wanting to be union teams.

Hear! hear!  Excellent brain capacity point there Brendan.  Hope the general intellect operating on these boards is sufficient to grasp that.  I live in hope.

Glad someone understood it
If they are private teams they get paid by the union to use the players.  If they are union teams they get as much cash as the union deems they need.
Seems that for Philbb that point is to comlicated

Only after the union has paid to buy the business and stadia, of course. They won’t be union teams unless they’re bought out, surely? Are they for sale? Would the WRU be able to afford them? Or want to own them?

BamBam wrote:Why do the Welsh always want to piggy back on the back of English success?

Surely its time they ran an independence campaign, I strongly hoped Scotland voted to stay as part of the union but would sure as hell back Welsh independence

Only Phill seems to want this. On here, at least. I can see some benefits. But I’m certainly happy in our current league thanks very much.

Irish Londoner wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Staggering levels of comprehension, delusion and mistruth in this thread. Not one poster is able to address Phil's points and have a coherent argument. Brendan seemingly tried but got a bit lost in the financials and then very bizarrely said the Welsh regions wanted to be Union run sides. I did laugh at that. Isn't that the very thing they've been fighting to avoid becoming for 15 years?

At this point, the Pro14 is such an invalid, turgid, pointless competiton, I'd much rather take a punt on the Championship and play Cornish pirates and Ealing Trailfinders for a few years in the hope that we somehow get osmosized into the English structure.

It would be a risk worth taking as we are going to die soon stuck in this hellhole that is the awful Pro14.

And we're back to why would Ealing want you ? It's their league and apart from the political shotstorm that would follow (the championship is owned/managed by the RFU) what would the Welsh bring to the party?
If they bring good teams then the other English clubs won't want rivals who might take the Premiership place away from them, if they are weaker than the English sides are the fans going to turn out to watch Scarlets V Doncaster in large numbers, how do the clubs get by without European rugby and the TV money from that, would the WRU give funding to clubs playing outside their jurisdiction, would they be allowed to, e.g. how would the RFU/PRL react if the IRFU took on London Irish as a "fifth province" based in England.

Meanwhile, over in the English Championship Ealing seem to want to come the other way:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/english-clubs-eye-shock-pro14-move/

The Oracle wrote:

BamBam wrote:Why do the Welsh always want to piggy back on the back of English success?

Surely its time they ran an independence campaign, I strongly hoped Scotland voted to stay as part of the union but would sure as hell back Welsh independence

Only Phill seems to want this. On here, at least. I can see some benefits. But I’m certainly happy in our current league thanks very much.

Excellent, glad to hear it

Now about that independence campaign ...

To be clear

Union Team - team where the union must put in as much money as is needed to run it to a standard the union is happy with

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.

The Blues asked the WRU to fund them for a bit while they did some development. Is that not asking to be a union team

Generally things with Debt are brought for little money. Do any of the Regions have assets that exceed the debt. Most stadiums are owned by other organisations