The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

That's fine. Easier to get annoyed about that when you've clearly acknowledged it's a response to you and be able to avoid it I suppose.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Still obsessed with me BamBam ?

Nice to know.

Yes the Premier sports subscriptions are up, but they were starting at ZERO, so if one person purchased it it would be up.

But there you go.

It's not UP, you fool.

They have hit their target.

Which was ?

Are the same amount of people in Wales watching the Pro14 on PS as they were on the BBC ?

LordDowlais wrote:Still obsessed with me BamBam ?

Nice to know.

Yes the Premier sports subscriptions are up, but they were starting at ZERO, so if one person purchased it it would be up.

But there you go.

Except PremierSports has been around for years and weren't starting at zero, not only that but they weren't talking about subscriptions being up, they were talking about surpassing the target they had for subscription numbers

He gets very angry doesn't he Marty?

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's fine.  Easier to get annoyed about that when you've clearly acknowledged it's a response to you and be able to avoid it I suppose.

I've answered your point to me. Firing riddles into the air when you can't be arsed to write a few letters suggests that you're just after a lame bite. Again.

Try being coherent. Try to avoid being incoherent.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Still obsessed with me BamBam ?

Nice to know.

Yes the Premier sports subscriptions are up, but they were starting at ZERO, so if one person purchased it it would be up.

But there you go.

It's not UP, you fool.

They have hit their target.

Which was ?

Are the same amount of people in Wales watching the Pro14 on PS as they were on the BBC ?

Whats that got to do with it?

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Still obsessed with me BamBam ?

Nice to know.

Yes the Premier sports subscriptions are up, but they were starting at ZERO, so if one person purchased it it would be up.

But there you go.

It's not UP, you fool.

They have hit their target.

Which was ?

Are the same amount of people in Wales watching the Pro14 on PS as they were on the BBC ?

Target numbers aren't released. The same numbers are watching on S4C - remember? You claimed only 2% of the population were interested, so you're in no position to moan about an alleged loss of interest.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He gets very angry doesn't he Marty?

Is that Phil? I wouldn't know, got him on block, only get my giggles from him when one of you kind folks quote him

That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He gets very angry doesn't he Marty?

Ah, so NOW you can write poster's names in your efforts.

So, as predicted, you're just on a wind up the rest of the time.

*Shocker*

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

You have no evidence to support that point of view, do you?

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Still obsessed with me BamBam ?

Nice to know.

Yes the Premier sports subscriptions are up, but they were starting at ZERO, so if one person purchased it it would be up.

But there you go.

It's not UP, you fool.

They have hit their target.

Which was ?

Are the same amount of people in Wales watching the Pro14 on PS as they were on the BBC ?

Target numbers aren't released. The same numbers are watching on S4C - remember? You claimed only 2% of the population were interested, so you're in no position to moan about an alleged loss of interest.

OK I'll concede and give you 5%.

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

How many people in Wales are watching?

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

There's less people watching the Premier League on Sky now than there were when the First Division was on terrestrial TV. Do you think Sky has been beneficial to football in England?

Oh you're able to read posts without your name being mentioned. Imagine. Still just avoid Marty's question it's ok.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

You have no evidence to support that point of view, do you?

Trust me, I have dug around to find anything, but I cannot, but if you are being honest with yourself, and you are a Welsh person living in Wales, you would know that the Pro14 is floundering in this country, and the fact that it is now on pay per view TV has not helped. The interest is at it's lowest ebb ever.

Just be honest about it.

Just look at all the value Welsh teams bring to broadcasting

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6229369/Cardiffs-loss-against-Burnley-watched-Premier-League-tie-season.html

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh you're able to read posts without your name being mentioned. Imagine. Still just avoid Marty's question it's ok.

I haven't avoided Marty's question because it wasn't asked of me, neither did I claim that I couldn't read posts without my name being mentioned.

Well done, genius. 0/3 on your attempts there.

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

There's less people watching the Premier League on Sky now than there were when the First Division was on terrestrial TV. Do you think Sky has been beneficial to football in England?

SKY do not have the Pro14, if they did, they would be doing a lot more with it than PS is.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

How many people in Wales are watching?

A lot less.

In fact, I would wager that there is almost as much people in Wales watching the Welsh Premiership nowadays.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

You have no evidence to support that point of view, do you?

Trust me, I have dug around to find anything, but I cannot, but if you are being honest with yourself, and you are a Welsh person living in Wales, you would know that the Pro14 is floundering in this country, and the fact that it is now on pay per view TV has not helped. The interest is at it's lowest ebb ever.

Just be honest about it.

I'll be honest by pointing out that it's not solely on pay per view TV. I'll be honest by pointing out that one game is shown live per week and another as live, so EXACTLY the same quantity of rugby on free to air TV. I'll be honest by pointing out that Freesports often shows the other games, during the week, on free to air tv.

So, I'll be honest by pointing out that MORE rugby is on Free to Air TV this season than ever before.

Will you now be honest to admit that correlation doesn't imply causation?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

How many people in Wales are watching?

A lot less.

In fact, I would wager that there is almost as much people in Wales watching the Welsh Premiership nowadays.

So you don't know the numbers?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

How many people in Wales are watching?

A lot less.

In fact, I would wager that there is almost as much people in Wales watching the Welsh Premiership nowadays.

So you're wagering blind, by your own admission?

Well you responded to it Phil but answered a different question than the one which was asked.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well you responded to it Phil but answered a different question than the one which was asked.

Not true. Look back.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

There's less people watching the Premier League on Sky now than there were when the First Division was on terrestrial TV. Do you think Sky has been beneficial to football in England?

SKY do not have the Pro14, if they did, they would be doing a lot more with it than PS is.

By what measure? You mentioned that there were less people watching the Pro14 now than when it was on the BBC. I'm saying the same has happened for Premier League football - answer the question rather than going off on random bluster

Just double checked. You haven't. You changed parameters completely and then still didn't answer his question on the set up.

That's fine but my point still holds that Marty's pretty reasonable question was ignored.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That's not my point though, subscriptions will be up, because certain fans will buy it to watch their teams.

My point is, there is less people watching the Pro14 in Wales now than there was when it was on the BBC.

That has ALWAYS been my point, but members like you and BamBam and Oracle always skew it in another direction to suit your own myopic views.

You have no evidence to support that point of view, do you?

Trust me, I have dug around to find anything, but I cannot, but if you are being honest with yourself, and you are a Welsh person living in Wales, you would know that the Pro14 is floundering in this country, and the fact that it is now on pay per view TV has not helped. The interest is at it's lowest ebb ever.

Just be honest about it.

I'll be honest by pointing out that it's not solely on pay per view TV. I'll be honest by pointing out that one game is shown live per week and another as live, so EXACTLY the same quantity of rugby on free to air TV. I'll be honest by pointing out that Freesports often shows the other games, during the week, on free to air tv.

So, I'll be honest by pointing out that MORE rugby is on Free to Air TV this season than ever before.

Will you now be honest to admit that correlation doesn't imply causation?

You are not being honest though.

Not everybody has freesports.

People in Wales are not interested in Benneton V Souther Kings on Freesport anyway.

You are burying your head in the sand if you think that Premier Sports is good for the long term rugby life in Wales, it isn't. Of all the PPV channels it could go to, this one has got to be the worst, and not because they are no good, but the fact that people in Wales are already paying for BT Sport and Sky Sport for the football, they will not pay for another channel. That's how it is.

The regions might be getting more money from PS, but the regions have lost thousands of casual fans, who potentially, could have been more.

Ah bam you could point to the same example.of cricket and sky and say the opposite. It is a balance between money from a broadcaster and access.hence why the prem and euro cup is getting airings on terrestrial.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just double checked. You haven't. You changed parameters completely and then still didn't answer his question on the set up.

That's fine but my point still holds that Marty's pretty reasonable question was ignored.

Wrong. But if that's the level you want to bring to the debate then so be it.

It's not wrong Phil. Everyone can see your replies so it's pointless lying. You also don't have to answer his question. I'm simply saying no has yet addressed it properly.

LordDowlais wrote:

You are not being honest though.

Not everybody has freesports.

People in Wales are not interested in Benneton V Souther Kings on Freesport anyway.

You are burying your head in the sand if you think that Premier Sports is good for the long term rugby life in Wales, it isn't. Of all the PPV channels it could go to, this one has got to be the worst, and not because they are no good, but the fact that people in Wales are already paying for BT Sport and Sky Sport for the football, they will not pay for another channel. That's how it is.

The regions might be getting more money from PS, but the regions have lost thousands of casual fans, who potentially, could have been more.

Freesports shows all of the Welsh teams, too.

If you think people won't pay for another channel, I'm guessing that you're assuming Premier Sports hit their target by subscriptions outside of Wales. Is that your thought process here?

I see that you've completely ignored S4C, too.

Here's how the broadcast contract has affected Cardiff's crowds: http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/attendance_by_opponents_in_pro14.php?clubID=1

You'll see them up on every game, bar being down just 14 for the Dragons.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not wrong Phil. Everyone can see your replies so it's pointless lying. You also don't have to answer his question. I'm simply saying no has yet addressed it properly.

Of course it's wrong. I answered by pointing out how little EPCR delivers to the French. So, yes, it has been addressed properly.

If the value of the domestic leagues increases by just that amount, there'll be no interest / room for the competition within the calendar. 100 claims it could completely, my view is that it is likely to go knockout.

Why can't you grasp that?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah bam you could point to the same example.of cricket and sky and say the opposite. It is a balance between money from a broadcaster and access.hence why the prem and euro cup is getting airings on terrestrial.

Agreed, but the Pro14 is still getting aired on terrestrial whereas the Premier League wasn't. Dowlais made his claim purely on the basis of less viewers = bad

That's not answering his question Phil. Go back and have another read of Marty's question. Or don't. It's up to you but you haven't answered it.

True enough bam. I suppose the football comparison is more suitable anyway given rugby is the national sport in Wales.

No 7&1/2 wrote:rugby is the national sport in Wales.

No it's not.

In Wales:

More people play football than rugby each week.
More people watch football than rugby on tv each week.
More people watch football than rugby live each week.

Still classed as the national sport I'm afraid.

It's not less viewers=bad though is it ?

It' about exposure, it's about getting people involved, it's about making people aware of the product.

It will be interesting to see how Judgement day goes, because I have not seen it advertised anywhere this year, when the Pro14 was on the BBC it used to be in the public eye.

BamBam wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Oh I must have been misreading the many months of debate on here about how Premier Sports would kill rugby in Wales and it was too much to pay

Have a scroll through LordDowlais posting history, I'm sure its still there

So 1 poster said that? When countless others said pay per view tv was good for rugby union?

So Dowlais doesn't speak for the whole of Wales? Someone should let him know, he was at it again earlier this morning

Unfortunately Dowellais is just up to his usual tricks of trying to rattle the cage and pretending he is the voice of the masses. I am unsure whether he is arrogant enough to genuinely believe that he can tell me or others what we would do should Dragons go by the wayside.

Sadly, he has yet again fallen for the celebrity newspaper’s clickbait, but then I guess it is a colleague’s work so he has to back him. Still, that’s how it goes. Today the odd arrogant post, Gwent mafia immaturity (nearly 40 years old mind) and more mindless supposition and then tomorrow back to whinging about how it’s no wonder nobody posts here any more.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:rugby is the national sport in Wales.

No it's not.

In Wales:

More people play football than rugby each week.
More people watch football than rugby on tv each week.
More people watch football than rugby live each week.

That may be so, but rugby is recognised as the national sport because of the international side of things. More people in Britain participate in fishing than any other sport, is fishing our national sport ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Still classed as the national sport I'm afraid.

By who? You?

I guess that's settled then.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:rugby is the national sport in Wales.

No it's not.

In Wales:

More people play football than rugby each week.
More people watch football than rugby on tv each week.
More people watch football than rugby live each week.

That may be so, but rugby is recognised as the national sport because of the international side of things. More people in Britain participate in fishing than any other sport, is fishing our national sport ?

No. Because you need to take into account viewing numbers and attendances and popularity of those who not only play it but watch people play it.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:rugby is the national sport in Wales.

No it's not.

In Wales:

More people play football than rugby each week.
More people watch football than rugby on tv each week.
More people watch football than rugby live each week.

That may be so, but rugby is recognised as the national sport because of the international side of things. More people in Britain participate in fishing than any other sport, is fishing our national sport ?

No. Because you need to take into account viewing numbers and attendances and popularity of those who not only play it but watch people play it.

And by going on that, more people watch Wales play rugby than they do watch them play football, so here we are.

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:rugby is the national sport in Wales.

No it's not.

In Wales:

More people play football than rugby each week.
More people watch football than rugby on tv each week.
More people watch football than rugby live each week.

That may be so, but rugby is recognised as the national sport because of the international side of things. More people in Britain participate in fishing than any other sport, is fishing our national sport ?

No. Because you need to take into account viewing numbers and attendances and popularity of those who not only play it but watch people play it.

And by going on that, more people watch Wales play rugby than they do watch them play football, so here we are.

That's just 1 team!

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:rugby is the national sport in Wales.

No it's not.

In Wales:

More people play football than rugby each week.
More people watch football than rugby on tv each week.
More people watch football than rugby live each week.

National sport has absolutely nothing to do with player numbers. National sport of England is cricket, for example.

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:rugby is the national sport in Wales.

No it's not.

In Wales:

More people play football than rugby each week.
More people watch football than rugby on tv each week.
More people watch football than rugby live each week.

National sport has absolutely nothing to do with player numbers.

Agreed. It's a number of factors. Like my post alludes to.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:rugby is the national sport in Wales.

No it's not.

In Wales:

More people play football than rugby each week.
More people watch football than rugby on tv each week.
More people watch football than rugby live each week.

National sport has absolutely nothing to do with player numbers.

Agreed. It's a number of factors. Like my post alludes to.

Well, the national sport is rugby. It is not football, which your post alludes to.

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:rugby is the national sport in Wales.

No it's not.

In Wales:

More people play football than rugby each week.
More people watch football than rugby on tv each week.
More people watch football than rugby live each week.

National sport has absolutely nothing to do with player numbers.

Agreed. It's a number of factors. Like my post alludes to.

Well, the national sport is rugby.  It is not football, which your post alludes to.

The National sport of Wales is football.

LordDowlais wrote:It's not less viewers=bad though is it ?

It' about exposure, it's about getting people involved, it's about making people aware of the product.

It will be interesting to see how Judgement day goes, because I have not seen it advertised anywhere this year, when the Pro14 was on the BBC it used to be in the public eye.

You're the one who stated that there was less people watching the Pro14 now than when it was on the BBC, so surely you are the perosn implying that less viewers = bad? My point around Sky and the Premier League is that it isn't so black and white