The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

BamBam wrote:
We don't want them either

Hey, BamBam - what's your role within PRL?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

What's so difficult about that?  If that's what the majority of Welsh club-owners, teams, coaches, players, and fans and union think, let them at it.

I wish it were that easy. As usual, it's the Unions that would stop it.

The Unions. Who should have zero say in how domestic rugby is run.

No. The PRL have absolutely no interest,that's why it will never happen.
Although next time they need your vote I'm sure they will promise to "look into it" and like the good boys you are you will fall in line , and through tears of joy you shall exclaim " they want us they really want us"
Only for them to tell you In the end that it's not possible just yet but they will assure you that "one day" the time will be right.

And you will blame it all on the irish, well because union, blazer's etc etc etc

carpet baboon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

What's so difficult about that?  If that's what the majority of Welsh club-owners, teams, coaches, players, and fans and union think, let them at it.

I wish it were that easy. As usual, it's the Unions that would stop it.

The Unions. Who should have zero say in how domestic rugby is run.

No. The PRL have absolutely no interest,that's why it will never happen.
Although next time they need your vote I'm sure they will promise to "look into it" and like the good boys you are you will fall in line , and through tears of joy you shall exclaim " they want us they really want us"
Only for them to tell you In  the end that it's not possible just yet but they will assure you that "one day" the time will be right.

And you will blame it all on the irish, well because union, blazer's etc etc etc

Somebody needs a hug. It's just the way it is sorry. I don't want to be in a league with you.

carpet baboon wrote:
No. The PRL have absolutely no interest,that's why it will never happen.
Although next time they need your vote I'm sure they will promise to "look into it" and like the good boys you are you will fall in line , and through tears of joy you shall exclaim " they want us they really want us"
Only for them to tell you In  the end that it's not possible just yet but they will assure you that "one day" the time will be right.

Next time?

When has that happened before?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

What's so difficult about that?  If that's what the majority of Welsh club-owners, teams, coaches, players, and fans and union think, let them at it.

I wish it were that easy. As usual, it's the Unions that would stop it.

The Unions. Who should have zero say in how domestic rugby is run.

No. The PRL have absolutely no interest,that's why it will never happen.
Although next time they need your vote I'm sure they will promise to "look into it" and like the good boys you are you will fall in line , and through tears of joy you shall exclaim " they want us they really want us"
Only for them to tell you In  the end that it's not possible just yet but they will assure you that "one day" the time will be right.

And you will blame it all on the irish, well because union, blazer's etc etc etc

Somebody needs a hug. It's just the way it is sorry. I don't want to be in a league with you.

And the PRL don't want a league with you.
I will miss going to the Welsh grounds to watch Ulster play, always had a good time great fans to have a drink with.

Well good luck, where ever you end up playing
I hear Germany are looking to expand

Pot Hale wrote:So, in summary, Phil thinks the Welsh sides are shoite because they are not sufficiently funded. A comparison with English clubs indicates that they need £12m to survive and they'll never get that.

The funny thing being he talks up private ownership yet blames unions for the lack of funding. Private owners are so great they have failed to make sure that the regions have been adequately funded

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

What's so difficult about that?  If that's what the majority of Welsh club-owners, teams, coaches, players, and fans and union think, let them at it.

I wish it were that easy. As usual, it's the Unions that would stop it.

The Unions. Who should have zero say in how domestic rugby is run.

Really? See how long domestic rugby goes without the laws, refs and Union funding you like to bitch about not being enough

marty2086 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:So, in summary, Phil thinks the Welsh sides are shoite because they are not sufficiently funded. A comparison with English clubs indicates that they need £12m to survive and they'll never get that.

The funny thing being he talks up private ownership yet blames unions for the lack of funding. Private owners are so great they have failed to make sure that the regions have been adequately funded

Yeah, it's really funny to be unable to comprehend a Union paying its supply chain the market rate.

It's really funny to understand that if, for example, the RFU pay £5 a day for player access but the WRU only £2 a day, the private owner in Wales has to fund an additional £3 just to get parity.

Yeah, that's funny.

Except not in the way you'd hope. It's only funny laughing at your complete ignorance of understanding.

PhilBB wrote:

BamBam wrote:
We don't want them either

Hey, BamBam - what's your role within PRL?

The same as yours within Welsh rugby. The difference is I waste less of my time shouting into the wind about it

Why are you thinking what the RFU paid is the market value?
It appears to me that the WRU believe that the RFU have overpaid.
Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, the Welsh teams and WRU agreed on the value. If its less than the RFU paid thats maybe what it is worth.
The FFR do not pay anything and do not have additional player access, except in WC years maybe you should consider that model for the regions instead of the RFU one?

Kingshu wrote:Why are you thinking what the RFU paid is the market value?

Because England, and the English test players, play in the same competitions as Wales and the Welsh test players.

Therefore, it's the same market.

This is basic stuff.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Why are you thinking what the RFU paid is the market value?

Because England, and the English test players, play in the same competitions as Wales and the Welsh test players.

Therefore, it's the same market.

This is basic stuff.

So do the French

Is Phil still going on about the WRU over an amount that was agreed between them and the Regions? So the WRU are to blame for the Regions accepting an amount that is apparently insufficient, those in charge are doing a great job making sure the clubs they are in charge of don't get enough funding then underfund it themselves leaving them trailing behind everyone it seems

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Why are you thinking what the RFU paid is the market value?

Because England, and the English test players, play in the same competitions as Wales and the Welsh test players.

Therefore, it's the same market.

This is basic stuff.

So do the French

Should also add there is no market here, Welsh players either play for Wales or they don't so there is no market for their services making market value an argument that has no relevance to the situation

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:So, in summary, Phil thinks the Welsh sides are shoite because they are not sufficiently funded. A comparison with English clubs indicates that they need £12m to survive and they'll never get that.

The funny thing being he talks up private ownership yet blames unions for the lack of funding. Private owners are so great they have failed to make sure that the regions have been adequately funded

Yeah, it's really funny to be unable to comprehend a Union paying its supply chain the market rate.

It's really funny to understand that if, for example, the RFU pay £5 a day for player access but the WRU only £2 a day, the private owner in Wales has to fund an additional £3 just to get parity.

Yeah, that's funny.

Except not in the way you'd hope. It's only funny laughing at your complete ignorance of understanding.

So if the clubs are getting short changed by the WRU why did they agree to the deal ?

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:So, in summary, Phil thinks the Welsh sides are shoite because they are not sufficiently funded. A comparison with English clubs indicates that they need £12m to survive and they'll never get that.

The funny thing being he talks up private ownership yet blames unions for the lack of funding. Private owners are so great they have failed to make sure that the regions have been adequately funded

Yeah, it's really funny to be unable to comprehend a Union paying its supply chain the market rate.

It's really funny to understand that if, for example, the RFU pay £5 a day for player access but the WRU only £2 a day, the private owner in Wales has to fund an additional £3 just to get parity.

Yeah, that's funny.

Except not in the way you'd hope. It's only funny laughing at your complete ignorance of understanding.

So if the clubs are getting short changed by the WRU why did they agree to the deal ?

Bless you Londoner for sharing that

He is a silly little arrogant sausage

I guess Im ignorant and didn't realise that the WRU are the only source of funding for the Regions. Maybe that's why he is so keen to join the English, he thinks they'll finally get someone capable of negotiating a decent deal working on behalf of the regions.

Do the English players not get paid more on average? Meaning their value to the clubs is higher, coupled with a wealthier union and throw in the argument the English are making about relegation and greater competition in their league increasing the impact of losing players for games and the quality needed to replace them it drives their value up

It's not like RF and Phil like to say the leagues being run for the Irish, if that's the case then losing players during the league will have less impact

Imagine arguing about market rate for something that isn't available on the market and he belittles other peoples intelligence

Then follows it up with 'ignorance of understanding'

Phil's having a sit down on the naughty step so won't be replying for a while.

Let that be a warning...

For those that have reported this post for wumming (thanks for that BTW) - this is a follow up to my red penning yesterday. Phil didn't head the warning so has been given a ban. The offending post has been removed.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't

I propose a 20 team Welsh pro league. With just Welsh players in it. We'll then have, like, 800 pro players to choose from and we'll rule the woooooooooooooooorld! That'll show 'em!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Phil's having a sit down on the naughty step so won't be replying for a while.

Let that be a warning...

For those that have reported this post for wumming (thanks for that) - this is a follow up to my red penning yesterday. Phil didn't head the warning so has been given a ban. The offending post has been removed.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't

That was me! Meant as a bit of fun/tongue in cheek

The Oracle wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Phil's having a sit down on the naughty step so won't be replying for a while.

Let that be a warning...

For those that have reported this post for wumming (thanks for that) - this is a follow up to my red penning yesterday. Phil didn't head the warning so has been given a ban. The offending post has been removed.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't

That was me!  Meant as a bit of fun/tongue in cheek

Fair enough - my patience level with this thread has reach its limits so that report pushed me over the edge!

The Oracle wrote:I propose a 20 team Welsh pro league.  With just Welsh players in it.  We'll then have, like, 800 pro players to choose from and we'll rule the woooooooooooooooorld!  That'll show 'em!

Ah, the Ponty/Valleys Rugby model.

I do not think Phill has done anything wrong on this thread.

Don't get me wrong, he is very tiresome. But there are others that are just as bad, but never cop a ban.

Well done RDW_Scotland, your selective moderating on here is wonderful.


No doubt. I will cop a ban for this now, as well. But I'm sorry, it had to be said.

LordDowlais wrote:I do not think Phill has done anything wrong on this thread.

Don't get me wrong, he is very tiresome. But there are others that are just as bad, but never cop a ban.

Well done RDW_Scotland, your selective moderating on here is wonderful.


No doubt. I will cop a ban for this now, as well. But I'm sorry, it had to be said.

Like a certain Mr L Dowlais?!

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I do not think Phill has done anything wrong on this thread.

Don't get me wrong, he is very tiresome. But there are others that are just as bad, but never cop a ban.

Well done RDW_Scotland, your selective moderating on here is wonderful.


No doubt. I will cop a ban for this now, as well. But I'm sorry, it had to be said.

Like a certain Mr L Dowlais?!  

I have been banned for less. So no.

Stone Motif wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I propose a 20 team Welsh pro league.  With just Welsh players in it.  We'll then have, like, 800 pro players to choose from and we'll rule the woooooooooooooooorld!  That'll show 'em!

Ah, the Ponty/Valleys Rugby model.

What happened to that, the whole 5th region thing - it seemed like a while back that was on the verge of being a goer ?

Irish Londoner wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I propose a 20 team Welsh pro league.  With just Welsh players in it.  We'll then have, like, 800 pro players to choose from and we'll rule the woooooooooooooooorld!  That'll show 'em!

Ah, the Ponty/Valleys Rugby model.

What happened to that, the whole 5th region thing  - it seemed like a while back that was on the verge of being a goer ?

We'll be lucky to keep four at the moment.

Who will you support then Munk ?

Will you get behind your region based in Cardiff ?

Irish Londoner wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I propose a 20 team Welsh pro league.  With just Welsh players in it.  We'll then have, like, 800 pro players to choose from and we'll rule the woooooooooooooooorld!  That'll show 'em!

Ah, the Ponty/Valleys Rugby model.

What happened to that, the whole 5th region thing  - it seemed like a while back that was on the verge of being a goer ?

Um, no, only to a bunch of valley cretins and the shyster MP for Ponty. They wanted to run a pro side on half of what the Dragons get.

Stone Motif wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I propose a 20 team Welsh pro league.  With just Welsh players in it.  We'll then have, like, 800 pro players to choose from and we'll rule the woooooooooooooooorld!  That'll show 'em!

Ah, the Ponty/Valleys Rugby model.

What happened to that, the whole 5th region thing  - it seemed like a while back that was on the verge of being a goer ?

Um, no, only to a bunch of valley cretins and the shyster MP for Ponty. They wanted to run a pro side on half of what the Dragons get.

Is he not referring to RGC ?

munkian wrote:The only issue I can see with a B&I league is that it would devalue the European cups even further.

From what I recall, when last talked about the English were interested in a joint league comprising Munster, Leinster, 2 Welsh teams and dump the Scots and Italians.

If independent clubs, I'd imagine Leinster & Munster would have jumped at that. Fortunately, the IRFU have the interests of rugby in general at heart.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Suggest you ask Pat Lam if he is only motivated by money......

I think he got a bit of a shock with the death of Anthony Foley and thought he better secure the future of his family as there is a history of heart disease.

edit: further to your other posts - Pat Lam didn't like a clause in his contract (and there are other coaches who have not liked it either - notably Rob Penney), but he did sign a new contract with the IRFU. The reason he left was because he got an offer he couldn't refuse which was enabled by that clause. If that clause was not in his contract, he would not have been contacted by Bristol.

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Yeah you can really see that with the massive crowds that turned up a the Parc Y Scarlets for their game against Leicester at the weekend or the huge crowd in the liberty stadium when the Ospreys hosted Worcester in what was basically a knockout match for the challenge cup... Oh wait.

Is this seriously the level of thinking? One off non-entity matches are picked at random to try to suggest a theme?

All done so from the other side of the water?

I mean, come on. You should be better than that.

The irony of this statement is quite something given how you used a one of game between Cardiff and Saracens to try prove there was more interest in playing against English sides very recently. This isn't the first time  I've used European attendances between Welsh and English sides to prove that this deep rivalry between English and Welsh clubs is a myth...this argument comes up quite a lot on here

Edit: The Ospreys game against Wuss was effectively a European knockout game, an important game in my book and yet couldn't get a higher turnout that Connacht, who were in a similar position when they played against Sale.

munkian wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I propose a 20 team Welsh pro league.  With just Welsh players in it.  We'll then have, like, 800 pro players to choose from and we'll rule the woooooooooooooooorld!  That'll show 'em!

Ah, the Ponty/Valleys Rugby model.

What happened to that, the whole 5th region thing  - it seemed like a while back that was on the verge of being a goer ?

Um, no, only to a bunch of valley cretins and the shyster MP for Ponty. They wanted to run a pro side on half of what the Dragons get.

Is he not referring to RGC ?

Potato pot-ah-to

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/exclusive-the-pro14-in-takeover-talks-with-private-equity-firm/

The PRO14 in takeover talks with private equity firm

Kingshu wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/exclusive-the-pro14-in-takeover-talks-with-private-equity-firm/

The PRO14 in takeover talks with private equity firm

Hmmm.  CVC talked with PRO14 previously before they contacted the Premiership and discussions were postponed until the SA and broadcasting deal were sorted.  

Lets see what the story idevelops into.

An asset stripping company would be fantastic for developing our league....

munkian wrote:An asset stripping company would be fantastic for developing our league....

I hope they sit back and wait a few months to see how things pan out with England before they sign this off.

On the other hand given that they could end up with a stake in both leagues, would they (CVC) push for a GB & I league. The TV money could make it happen as it might get Sky as the only cross border platform.

Is it CVC who are interested in Pro14 though?

Any investment/share would have strict rules and clauses in it.

So it is still a little early to say this maybe but as long as Scarlets match Tigers and Blues lose by less than 10 we will have no last placed teams in either cup.

Benetton will most likely miss out by 1pt on a quarter final spot.  Scotland with two quarter finalists in the big cup.  Also a point not really brought up but going into the last round of Matches each group has the potential to be topped by a Pro 14 team.  Not sure if that has been the case since the restructuring of the competition.

Backs up last year's results and re-forces that if you are in the playoff spots for the Pro14 you are a good team who should be holding their own in Europe.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Edit: The Ospreys game against Wuss was effectively a European knockout game, an important game in my book and yet couldn't get a higher turnout that Connacht, who were in a similar position when they played against Sale.

Thats because, despite what people would have you believe on here, the interest in regional rugby is dying.

I take no pleasure in saying this, but decisions that have been made for the Pro14 this season have seriously hampered the focus on it in Wales.

Brendan wrote:Any investment/share would have strict rules and clauses in it.

Yeah...easily changed by a secret ten minute meeting at an undisclosed location in Siberia...................

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Edit: The Ospreys game against Wuss was effectively a European knockout game, an important game in my book and yet couldn't get a higher turnout that Connacht, who were in a similar position when they played against Sale.

Thats because, despite what people would have you believe on here, the interest in regional rugby is dying.

I take no pleasure in saying this, but decisions that have been made for the Pro14 this season have seriously hampered the focus on it in Wales.

Don't lie lord. It's your greatest pleasure in the world telling everyone that rugby in Wales is losing its grip on life and will shortly shuffle off this mortal earth. (And in Phil's mind that shuffling is just over to the east a bit to the fortunes of the PRL)

I envision a time when I'll only truly follow International rugby.

I see the greed in the club game growing and growing and this desire for bigger and bigger 'League' mergers/link ups is just something that will turn rugby into football

(endless weekend leagues stuffed with endless table permutations chat.  Endless transfer chat and salary chat.  Endless inane head coach rubbish in endless week day press conferences; and endless little match feeds on Saturday radio shows from obscure Lowest League games in obscure parts of the world that somehow will have some strategic meaning for the top of the table in the Biggest World League!

I love rugby as a game.  Some people seem to love the endlessness possibilities of endless 'growth' and endless complexity.  So be it, we're all different.

carpet baboon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Edit: The Ospreys game against Wuss was effectively a European knockout game, an important game in my book and yet couldn't get a higher turnout that Connacht, who were in a similar position when they played against Sale.

Thats because, despite what people would have you believe on here, the interest in regional rugby is dying.

I take no pleasure in saying this, but decisions that have been made for the Pro14 this season have seriously hampered the focus on it in Wales.

Don't lie lord. It's your greatest pleasure in the world telling everyone that rugby in Wales is losing its grip on life and will shortly shuffle off this mortal earth. (And in Phil's mind that shuffling is just over to the east  a bit to the fortunes of the PRL)

If Regional Rugby is dying in Wales no one has told the fans.  Yes Attendances go up and down based on results and weather but have attendances dropped below their core base.

I would say rugby has/is stagnating in Wales.  Just as it did before in Scotland which are now growing on and off the field.

Dragons have a solid base of at least 4k who have stuck with them.  I am sure the other regions have simillar or bigger core bases.

What sports team has the highest attendance after Cardiff City and Swansea City. Is it the mighty Newport County with their average of 3.3k this season just over 50% of the Dragons.

SecretFly wrote:I envision a time when I'll only truly follow International rugby.

I see the greed in the club game growing and growing and this desire for bigger and bigger 'League' mergers/link ups is just something that will turn rugby into football

(endless weekend leagues stuffed with endless table permutations chat.  Endless transfer chat and salary chat.  Endless inane head coach rubbish in endless week day press conferences; and endless little match feeds on Saturday radio shows from obscure Lowest League games in obscure parts of the world that somehow will have some strategic meaning for the top of the table in the Biggest World League!

I love rugby as a game.  Some people seem to love the endlessness possibilities of endless 'growth' and endless complexity.  So be it, we're all different.

Rugby is pretty much destined to become like football.

What is scary is that Rugby, as a professional game, is still very much in its early days.

Meanwhile greedy unions arrange internationals outside of international windows and increase the number of sides in annual tournaments in order to feather their nest and place an additional burden on top-level players. It’s not all one way.

Cyril wrote:Meanwhile greedy unions arrange internationals outside of international windows and increase the number of sides in annual tournaments in order to feather their nest and place an additional burden on top-level players. It’s not all one way.

I am sure that those players play the same amount of Rugby if they have the extra international or not. But the players get a nice appearance fee so I don't think they mind. I doubt any of the Unions are feathering their nest as the money goes out as quick as it comes in.

Cyril wrote:Meanwhile greedy unions arrange internationals outside of international windows and increase the number of sides in annual tournaments in order to feather their nest and place an additional burden on top-level players. It’s not all one way.

Isn't that partially because the unions need to raise revenue to subsidise the club game?