The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

So the answer to Wales problems are put a region in one of the poorest places in Western Europe, where each Valley dislikes the next valley, and who we are told think their local team is more important than and Regional team.

We are going to take this new team and they will be less of a drain on Welsh Rugby than the current 4. And I guess this Region would be sponsored by the TV program Gold Rush after all the gold starts coming out of the ground.

And it fixes the geographical issue because it is mid Wales (as in it is between the North and South coastine). And each town will get home games and there will be no issues with Ponty and Merthyr fighting over who is the regional centre.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Where my Caravan is sited, there are mostly people from the Rhondda, all lovely people, no hatred there.

 

Comedy genius

Why ? I have a static caravan cited in West Wales, it's beautiful over there, there are a lot of people from the Rhondda who also have caravans cited there.

I spend most of the summer down there, I love West Wales.

What's so funny about that ?

Brendan wrote:So the answer to Wales problems are put a region in one of the poorest places in Western Europe, where each Valley dislikes the next valley, and who we are told think their local team is more important than and Regional team.

We are going to take this new team and they will be less of a drain on Welsh Rugby than the current 4.  And I guess this Region would be sponsored by the TV program Gold Rush after all the gold starts coming out of the ground.

And it fixes the geographical issue because it is mid Wales (as in it is between the North and South coastine).  And each town will get home games and there will be no issues with Ponty and Merthyr fighting over who is the regional centre.  

some people on here eh.....

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:So the answer to Wales problems are put a region in one of the poorest places in Western Europe, where each Valley dislikes the next valley, and who we are told think their local team is more important than and Regional team.

We are going to take this new team and they will be less of a drain on Welsh Rugby than the current 4.  And I guess this Region would be sponsored by the TV program Gold Rush after all the gold starts coming out of the ground.

And it fixes the geographical issue because it is mid Wales (as in it is between the North and South coastine).  And each town will get home games and there will be no issues with Ponty and Merthyr fighting over who is the regional centre.  

some people on here eh.....

He’s got a point though...

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:So the answer to Wales problems are put a region in one of the poorest places in Western Europe, where each Valley dislikes the next valley, and who we are told think their local team is more important than and Regional team.

We are going to take this new team and they will be less of a drain on Welsh Rugby than the current 4.  And I guess this Region would be sponsored by the TV program Gold Rush after all the gold starts coming out of the ground.

And it fixes the geographical issue because it is mid Wales (as in it is between the North and South coastine).  And each town will get home games and there will be no issues with Ponty and Merthyr fighting over who is the regional centre.  

some people on here eh.....

He’s got a point though...

Has he ?

A TV program called Gold Rush ? Seriously ?

Also, it's just come to me, I have mentioned about how Connacht are managing with about the same population as my home town, I see everybody conveniently dodged that.

You said they were unfairly financed and not self sustainable though.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Brendan wrote:So the answer to Wales problems are put a region in one of the poorest places in Western Europe, where each Valley dislikes the next valley, and who we are told think their local team is more important than and Regional team.

We are going to take this new team and they will be less of a drain on Welsh Rugby than the current 4.  And I guess this Region would be sponsored by the TV program Gold Rush after all the gold starts coming out of the ground.

And it fixes the geographical issue because it is mid Wales (as in it is between the North and South coastine).  And each town will get home games and there will be no issues with Ponty and Merthyr fighting over who is the regional centre.  

some people on here eh.....

He’s got a point though...

Has he ?

A TV program called Gold Rush ? Seriously ?

Also, it's just come to me, I have mentioned about how Connacht are managing with about the same population as my home town, I see everybody conveniently dodged that.

Well they would need a gold mine and the show digs gold out of the ground. Where else would the money come from.

Galway has 80k which isn't big. Sadly there are no other towns bigger so it's the best they have. They do have the support of the IRFU and the whole Provience so fan base has the potential to be 500k who would all view themselves as part of the region

No 7&1/2 wrote:You said they were unfairly financed and not self sustainable though.

Yes, and your point being ?

Why can't a valleys team be all of that as well ?

It was a point you were arguing that was unfair to the other teams in the competition. So by that logic I wouldn't have thought you'd want that?

No 7&1/2 wrote:It was a point you were arguing that was unfair to the other teams in the competition. So by that logic I wouldn't have thought you'd want that?

No, I was asked what is unfair between the two systems, and I stated what you are on about, I did not say it was wrong, as in Ireland, they use the union controlled system, which works for them, and Connacht benefit from it, you could argue that perhaps Leinster or Ulster subsidise them, which makes it unfair, when a single person running a club has to compete against it, the same with Munster when they racked up all that debt, but I do not think it's wrong.

Why?

So LD you want a valleys Regions and you don't.

You want it funded by a private investor that isn't there

You want more Union money but less Control

You want to be part of a Union owned league run by unions for Unions but you want all the teams to be privately owned because the Regions are so, should everyone else be too.

You want to merge the existing Regions into two teams because they are underfunded and then want there to be two new regions set up in places that can't afford them.

You think the Regions are dying while still being the 3-6 best attended sports teams in Wales that aren't call Wales while at the same time saying the Welsh Prem is going to thrive while currently their total attendance combined is less than two of the Regions combined.

You feel the owners of the Regions have poorly run them and don't think things will change while still wanting all the other teams to move to this model

You think a person changes when there is a different employer name on his/her pay slip

You think the Irish have held the other unions captive so long they have Stockholm syndrome that they vote for things that only benefit the Irish.  On a side note the biggest loser (after Italy) with the changes to the Champions Cup and reduced places has been the Welsh Regions with only getting 2 teams in while Ireland have never had less than their theee.  It was the Regions that voted for that so they aren't great at chosing

Sorry about the rant

Well sorry might be to strong a word

It’s easy to say that population sizes could dictate where a pro team could be held. It’s also a little bit of a simplistic view. This is a bit of a circular discussion, but unfortunately the four pro teams are the most accessible. They are all on the main commuter rail line that runs through Wales and they are all conveniently placed on the main motorway that runs through Wales.

Ground capacities don’t mean a lot either. If they did, why did Dragons get rid of their best stand (Argus Terrace) for one with more hospitality and less available seats. Unfortunately they have to attract sponsors etc and have to entertain them. I am willing to be educated on what the facilities are like at any other Welsh Prem ground, but I would wager they don’t compare. This is just one factor in why the grounds we have are the most suited for professional rugby.

Also, I sense a bit of mischief in Valleys rugby talk. If there was an appetite for siting a rugby team there, I suspect Owen Smith (MP)’s idea might’ve taken off or Sir Stanley might’ve expressed an interest by now. Plus of course, there isn’t any interest in pro rugby up that way anyway. A team in North Wales I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss, but then merging doesn’t really seem an option and it would be a big step for this new WRU to move a team away from another place (Newport). I suspect the Welsh coaching staff quite like not having to travel to watch or coach most of their players too, but that remains to be seen what will happen when Pivac etc come in. But who is to say that people in say Pwllheli would want to travel across to Colwyn Bay frequently anyway. It could feasibly end up with less support than Dragons.

A Valleys team wont succeed for the same reason a Borders one didn't.

The rival between the teams runs too deep

I think we should start a fifth team in Ireland as it would take all the players currently sitting on benches and give them game time. Given the WRU is likely to axe 1-2 teams it would replace one of those in the PRO14.

Pot Hale wrote:I think we should start a fifth team in Ireland as it would take all the players currently sitting on benches and give them game time.  Given the WRU is likely to axe 1-2 teams it would replace one of those in the PRO14.  

‘Likely’ is a bit presumptuous, Pot.

A Fifth team............... where would they be and what would they be called?

Blasket Islands? The Blasket Basketcases! Toughest, craziest hombre team this side of the Rio Grande!

or maybe The Skelligs and just call them The Jedi?

Why not just split Ulster in two and have two provinces: one made up of the 3 counties in the south and one made up of the 6 in the north? Simple.

Change the names to something a little more fun and bingo! You’re away.

Pot Hale wrote:I think we should start a fifth team in Ireland as it would take all the players currently sitting on benches and give them game time.  Given the WRU is likely to axe 1-2 teams it would replace one of those in the PRO14.  

Can you start 4 more teams in Ireland please.

The Oracle wrote:Why not just split Ulster in two and have two provinces: one made up of the 3 counties in the south and one made up of the 6 in the north? Simple.

Change the names to something a little more fun and bingo! You’re away.

A team stuffed with Cavanmen!!!! Are you nuts???

Do you want to start World War 3?

Them lads would not only hide the ball, they'd hide the ref and the posts..... and the trylines............... If you want to talk crafty cheating Irishmen, then go ahead, promote a team of Cavanmen....................

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I think we should start a fifth team in Ireland as it would take all the players currently sitting on benches and give them game time.  Given the WRU is likely to axe 1-2 teams it would replace one of those in the PRO14.  

Can you start 4 more teams in Ireland please.

I'm sure they could, but you'd be up sh1t creek without a paddle wouldn't ya

SecretFly wrote:A Fifth team...............  where would they be and what would they be called?

Blasket Islands?  The Blasket Basketcases!   Toughest, craziest hombre team this side of the Rio Grande!

or maybe The Skelligs and just call them The Jedi?

Meath ?

Pot Hale wrote:I think we should start a fifth team in Ireland as it would take all the players currently sitting on benches and give them game time.  Given the WRU is likely to axe 1-2 teams it would replace one of those in the PRO14.  

Leinster 2nds, sure they are already dominating the league anyway

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I think we should start a fifth team in Ireland as it would take all the players currently sitting on benches and give them game time.  Given the WRU is likely to axe 1-2 teams it would replace one of those in the PRO14.  

Can you start 4 more teams in Ireland please.

Good idea actually.  It's always been my failsafe proposal if the Pro14 became unworkable and a preference over joining any B&I League.  

Eight teams in Ireland (Union owned - N/S or E/W Provincial divide-up) - could work I think.  It'd be tough in the early years to bed it all down but as a long term plan I think it would be doable.

BamBam wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I think we should start a fifth team in Ireland as it would take all the players currently sitting on benches and give them game time.  Given the WRU is likely to axe 1-2 teams it would replace one of those in the PRO14.  

Can you start 4 more teams in Ireland please.

I'm sure they could, but you'd be up sh1t creek without a paddle wouldn't ya

Na. Friends in high places.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:A Fifth team...............  where would they be and what would they be called?

Blasket Islands?  The Blasket Basketcases!   Toughest, craziest hombre team this side of the Rio Grande!

or maybe The Skelligs and just call them The Jedi?

Meath ?

Why do you constantly mention Meath, Lord? Meath is in blasted Leinster! They're another bunch who'd love to think they were important enough to have their own Rugby Team................ but never would I allow it to happen! Civil war before I'd let those lads have their way.

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I think we should start a fifth team in Ireland as it would take all the players currently sitting on benches and give them game time.  Given the WRU is likely to axe 1-2 teams it would replace one of those in the PRO14.  

Can you start 4 more teams in Ireland please.

Good idea actually.  It's always been my failsafe proposal if the Pro14 became unworkable and a preference over joining any B&I League.  

Eight teams in Ireland (Union owned - N/S or E/W Provincial divide-up) - could work I think.  It'd be tough in the early years to bed it all down but as a long term plan I think it would be doable.  

That would be excellent. The Pro14 would then be a Union run league more or less. All on the same playing field. Level. Balanced.

May as well do away with European competition then or maybe only have a Welsh-Anglo-Franco European competition.
There could also be a Ital-Irish-Scots-SouthAfrican knockout cup.

That way every single team would be playing a team that knows where they stand each week and don't have unfair advantages / disadvantages. All governed similarly. All with the same structures.

Solved.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

BamBam wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I think we should start a fifth team in Ireland as it would take all the players currently sitting on benches and give them game time.  Given the WRU is likely to axe 1-2 teams it would replace one of those in the PRO14.  

Can you start 4 more teams in Ireland please.

I'm sure they could, but you'd be up sh1t creek without a paddle wouldn't ya

Na. Friends in high places.

Ah yea, the Thomas family will fund a league

How did I forget

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I think we should start a fifth team in Ireland as it would take all the players currently sitting on benches and give them game time.  Given the WRU is likely to axe 1-2 teams it would replace one of those in the PRO14.  

Can you start 4 more teams in Ireland please.

Good idea actually.  It's always been my failsafe proposal if the Pro14 became unworkable and a preference over joining any B&I League.  

Eight teams in Ireland (Union owned - N/S or E/W Provincial divide-up) - could work I think.  It'd be tough in the early years to bed it all down but as a long term plan I think it would be doable.  

That would be excellent. The Pro14 would then be a Union run league more or less. All on the same playing field. Level. Balanced.

May as well do away with European competition then or maybe only have a Welsh-Anglo-Franco European competition.
There could also be a Ital-Irish-Scots-SouthAfrican knockout cup.

That way every single team would be playing a team that knows where they stand each week and don't have unfair advantages / disadvantages. All governed similarly. All with the same structures.

Solved.

Go for it.................... advocate for it.  From here on in, talk positive...ring the people that matter...................... no more negativity.

..... but we'll hold on to Europe and Heineken ...after all, we had a big share in making it marketable.

You call your pan-League event The Little Man Made Good Cup (LMMGC)  

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:A Fifth team...............  where would they be and what would they be called?

Blasket Islands?  The Blasket Basketcases!   Toughest, craziest hombre team this side of the Rio Grande!

or maybe The Skelligs and just call them The Jedi?

Meath ?

Why do you constantly mention Meath, Lord?  Meath is in blasted Leinster!  They're another bunch who'd love to think they were important enough to have their own Rugby Team................ but never would I allow it to happen!  Civil war before I'd let those lads have their way.

Isn't Meath a province ?

Why is it fair for a private individual to artificially inflate and support a club but not fair for a union to do so LD?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it fair for a private individual to artificially inflate and support a club but not fair for a union to do so LD?

Our topic for the day is set! Over to you guys.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it fair for a private individual to artificially inflate and support a club but not fair for a union to do so LD?

When have I said it was ?

The only thing that is not fair is, that normally a private owner or person is only allowed to own one club within the same league, which is a rule in most sports.

What I don't like is, how a private owner is taking all the risks, and it is him who burdens all the blame. Please look up Mike Cuddy, the Neath owner for reference, when a union is controlling things, if everything goes pear shaped, then there is really no fall guy.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it fair for a private individual to artificially inflate and support a club but not fair for a union to do so LD?

Our topic for the day is set! Over to you guys.....

Yes he does like a troll.

I have answered him though, but I bet it will not be enough, and he will keep dragging this around the houses.

LordDowlais wrote:
Isn't Meath a province ?

No. Meath is a shower - that's what Meath is.


Only joking me Meath buddies ........................ (now let me see, how many Meath buddies do I have? - it will need some heavy research to uncover the first one)

It's not trolling to pick apart your arguments LD. Might be annoying for you but not trolling.

LordDowlais wrote: when a union is controlling things, if everything goes pear shaped, then there is really no fall guy.

But that's like saying that when a Nation is badly led that the Nation itself should be destroyed rather than just unelecting the idiot or forcing him to resign. Why should a country fall apart simply because they made the mistake of electing an idiot?

We're doing a pretty good job of that in the UK following the eu ref.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it fair for a private individual to artificially inflate and support a club but not fair for a union to do so LD?

When have I said it was ?

The only thing that is not fair is, that normally a private owner or person is only allowed to own one club within the same league, which is a rule in most sports.

What I don't like is, how a private owner is taking all the risks, and it is him who burdens all the blame. Please look up Mike Cuddy, the Neath owner for reference, when a union is controlling things, if everything goes pear shaped, then there is really no fall guy.

Except there are fall guys, in the IRFU its Nucifora in the SRU I think it's Mark Dodson

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it fair for a private individual to artificially inflate and support a club but not fair for a union to do so LD?

When have I said it was ?

The only thing that is not fair is, that normally a private owner or person is only allowed to own one club within the same league, which is a rule in most sports.

What I don't like is, how a private owner is taking all the risks, and it is him who burdens all the blame. Please look up Mike Cuddy, the Neath owner for reference, when a union is controlling things, if everything goes pear shaped, then there is really no fall guy.

Except there are fall guys, in the IRFU its Nucifora in the SRU I think it's Mark Dodson

Yes but they just stand to lose their jobs. Unlike poor Mike Cuddy, the whole thing made the man seriously ill.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: when a union is controlling things, if everything goes pear shaped, then there is really no fall guy.

But that's like saying that when a Nation is badly led that the Nation itself should be destroyed rather than just unelecting the idiot or forcing him to resign.  Why should a country fall apart simply because they made the mistake of electing an idiot?

Look, I am not saying that the system is wrong. Each to their own. But what happens in the union owned system would not be allowed in any other sport. An owner is only allowed to own one club/team/franchise.

The thing is, if the head honcho at the union buggers things up, he loses his job, plenty of other jobs out there, if a club owner buggers things up, he stands to lose everything.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not trolling to pick apart your arguments LD. Might be annoying for you but not trolling.

But that's the thing, the only member I am arguing with is you, when you do this, with everybody else I just debate, well except marty. I think you pair are cut from the same cloth if truth be told.

You two have a history with arguing with a hell of a lot of people on here. You No 7&1/2 have even driven a very good MOD and a very good member away from this forum.

The case does highlight the dangers of relying on individuals to fund clubs.

Please tell me the mod was biltong?

Maybe Mike Cuddy should have done what a union would have, and brought in an executive, just as the unions have Nucifora etc. The owner doesn't have to be the person running the business day to day

How many of the top Premier League clubs are ran by their owners? They all have CEO type roles handling the daily business

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it fair for a private individual to artificially inflate and support a club but not fair for a union to do so LD?

When have I said it was ?

The only thing that is not fair is, that normally a private owner or person is only allowed to own one club within the same league, which is a rule in most sports.

What I don't like is, how a private owner is taking all the risks, and it is him who burdens all the blame. Please look up Mike Cuddy, the Neath owner for reference, when a union is controlling things, if everything goes pear shaped, then there is really no fall guy.

Except there are fall guys, in the IRFU its Nucifora in the SRU I think it's Mark Dodson

Yes but they just stand to lose their jobs. Unlike poor Mike Cuddy, the whole thing made the man seriously ill.

So when you said there are no fall guys you meant there were?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not trolling to pick apart your arguments LD. Might be annoying for you but not trolling.

But that's the thing, the only member I am arguing with is you, when you do this, with everybody else I just debate, well except marty. I think you pair are cut from the same cloth if truth be told.

You two have a history with arguing with a hell of a lot of people on here. You No 7&1/2 have even driven a very good MOD and a very good member away from this forum.

Are you serious? You were claiming yesterday that you must had influenced the league into doing something about the officials because you had previously argued that they should do it. When you only argued it 11 months ago, claimed the issue was something else 12 months ago and the league first started addressing the issue 3 years ago

You see anecdotes and your opinion as valid and substantial as evidence of the issues you claim exist

I would like the IRFU to put up a player loan list at about March for other Pro14 teams to use take these players for a year.  Mainly the weaker teams such as Kings, Zebre, Dragons, the two SA teams coming if they need it. The IRFU could put in conditions such as playing time, positions etc.

Strengths the league, gives players a chance to improve and show how good they are.  Once the year is up they can then be bid on by the provinces.

The IRFU could pay a small wage topped up by the team.  I am sure there are plenty who would improve the lower team squads and the players get more game time. I think going to Connacht is over unless you are good enough.  Cian Kelleher being an example of what will happen where Leinster did all they could to keep him.

It also seems at international level that starting at your Province is important to getting picked which is great.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not trolling to pick apart your arguments LD. Might be annoying for you but not trolling.

But that's the thing, the only member I am arguing with is you, when you do this, with everybody else I just debate, well except marty. I think you pair are cut from the same cloth if truth be told.

You two have a history with arguing with a hell of a lot of people on here. You No 7&1/2 have even driven a very good MOD and a very good member away from this forum.

Are you serious? You were claiming yesterday that you must had influenced the league into doing something about the officials because you had previously argued that they should do it. When you only argued it 11 months ago, claimed the issue was something else 12 months ago and the league first started addressing the issue 3 years ago

You see anecdotes and your opinion as valid and substantial as evidence of the issues you claim exist

Oh give over will you ? You'll only embarrass yourself again.

I swear, you and No 7&1/2 have serious issues.