England's Indian Summer - T20s, ODIs & Tests

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guildfordbat wrote:

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:The toss has proven to be most significant factor in the entire series. Root was fortunate he won the toss in every match - despite he moronic decision to bowl in Nottingham. Had the tosses been the opposite way around we could easily be 0-4 down as Kohli would've batted in Nottingham anyway.

The side is clearly in decline once Anderson and Broad leave the scene we may well struggle to even win at home.

Curran has been a decent find more for his batting, bowling isn't anything to write home about yet.

Moeen a decent comeback but his issues are he's hopeless away from England.

Cook and Jennings need scores at the Oval or i would hope both are dropped for Sri Lanka.

Root has shown in this series he's not of the class of a Smith, Kohli or Williamson. His stock has fallen big time.

Dropping is easy. Replacing is less so.

Burns and Vince. Need someone to get after the bowling on the Sri Lankan sandpits and Vince is a decent player of spin. Burns the guy the try and hold up an end.

293/2, a lead of 333. India will now need to make the highest innings total to win. Never easy, eh Olly?

robbo

I think it's more that Cook has been able to relax this test, knowing that the pressure isn't really there (especially with it being a dead rubber), and that the decision to call it a day has been made. Even with Jennings still not providing much support at the top of the order, he's played like a weight has gone from his mind - we're seeing shots today that are not in the 4 stroke repertoire (forward defence, clip, cut and pull).

I do wonder if he would have continued longer if a reasonably successful opening partner had been identified - would have reduced the pressure to perform from Cook's shoulders and perhaps left him some more mental reserves.

The nightmare scenario is looking plausible....
Root gets out just after tea with Cook still in but the ball is starting to loop and difficult to pick under floodlights.

When does he declare....

guildfordbat wrote:293/2, a lead of 333. India will now need to make the highest innings total to win. Never easy, eh Olly?

I've heard someone say that before...

dummy_half wrote:robbo

I think it's more that Cook has been able to relax this test, knowing that the pressure isn't really there (especially with it being a dead rubber), and that the decision to call it a day has been made. Even with Jennings still not providing much support at the top of the order, he's played like a weight has gone from his mind - we're seeing shots today that are not in the 4 stroke repertoire (forward defence, clip, cut and pull).

I do wonder if he would have continued longer if a reasonably successful opening partner had been identified - would have reduced the pressure to perform from Cook's shoulders and perhaps left him some more mental reserves.

Fair point. But I guess even then it's not something that will go away if Cook reverses his decision. I guess what I'm saying is this is a nice swansong, but we can't say it would be the new norm for Cook. Much more pleasing for England should be Root coming back into a bit of form. We'll need him to fire over the winter.

Robbo

Certainly agree with your comment there - it's something of a one-off for Cook to bat in this way, and comes because of the lack of pressure and the ability to just stay in the moment. Root finding some form is obiously a much more important factor.

Its not just Cook it looks like Root too dummy.

Im preety sure the whole top order has felt a collective pressure. Bairstow is a better bat than his recent scores suggest, and jennings whilst being no Cook is potentially better than hes looked recently.
You only have to look at the way Butylers batted since his recall compared to prior to it to see how important physchology and pressure are. England do seem very susepctable as individuals and a team to collective swings in mentality and really feel the pressure at times.
Moeens perhaps the most extreme example with wild fluctuations in his batting and bowling, but broads another who just seems to lose it for long periods only to suddwnly get his mojo back and deliver unplayable spells.

Maybe they need a psychologist or somethi ng.

Stokes is one of the few who seems like a real stand up guy whos best often comes in adversity and who seems to really relish a scrap.


I totally agree with the point that this no more marks a turning point for cook than his previous two dounle centuries which punctuated an otherwise woeful run.
If anything it reenforces the point that he just didnt want to be playing tests anymore.

Gooseberry wrote:The nightmare scenario is looking plausible....
Root gets out just after tea with Cook still in but the ball is starting to loop and difficult to pick under floodlights.

When does he declare....

I think we have enough runs now to be honest. But with the time left in the game, we often see the "mental disintegration" tactic of just batting on and on and on and then tucking into a defeated team in the fourth innings.

You'd think we'd be bowling today, and if the lights come on early and the ball starts doing stuff then we might see an earlier declaration. Otherwise we'll possibly be looking for another 100 runs in the hours either side of tea? That would leave an hour and a half in the day, assuming the overs haven't been bowled.

The ideal scenario would be to get Kohli in and out when the ball is still fairly new and the lights are on. So I guess we'd want at least 20 overs at them tonight, which with current over rates is probably not far off the hour and a half above.

I do think it’s worth noticing the lack of movement, Indians with little to play for and wanting to go home, a bowler down and the emotion of the day on the England side.

England will get a bowl under the lights too, which could blur the lines of what this pitch is doing. And a demoralised opposition too.

Absolutely Doplphin its fallen perfectly for England...but at the same time these two have batted as well as we have seen them for a long time.

Again the scale of victory may flatter England bit this time its hard to argue they havent earnt it (getting ahead of myswlf now!!!)


Robbo the point re declaration is yes of course from a winning the game perspective shortly after tea would be the ideal time ....but it would be a difficult decision to make if cooks out there and gunning in on a double century.

India just want to go home, so I don't think they'll provide much resistance in the second innings.

Cook closing in on double century number six.

just leave Cook out there, give him his "For Love of the Game" moment.

Oops, Cook and Root gone just like that.

What a career. The finest English batsman of a generation.

damn...

Vihari has a wicket...Root gone for a cool 125

After seeing a couple of Jadeja's spit and leap he might fancy a bowl tomorrow

And now Cook goes ! 147 and out...

Stokes saves the hat trick. Collapse on

Still think they'll look to bat on after tea...partly to annoy India ; and also they would probably prefer a relatively short but intense session of bowling tonight while keeping the bowlers fairly fresh to go again in the morning.

Lead is probably enough already , in truth. But plenty of time left and the weather set fair ; so they might as well make sure of it.

On Robbo's theory : I actually believe Cook could easily play on if he wished...this innings should have shown him he still has "it" when his mind is clear...
But he's not likely to change his mind now. Once he decided that ,much as he loved the job , he was ready to leave it at last...he was happy with the decision. Nothing left to prove...time to enjoy family , farm , and playing for Essex.
And at least it gives the team a few matches to settle a new pair before they host the next Ashes...

Oh once agains tep away for half an hour and the worlds turned on its head! The collapse is on ...well sort of.

Gutted I missed it, but nice catch for the kid Pant to take after a rough intro to test cricket....and vindication of sorts for Vihari after Gavaskars tirade regarding his selection.

Should be less pressure than usual on the middle order. These guys have license to play pretty free now, its already up the level where it would take a miracle for India to chase down the score. Stokes certainly seems to have started with intent.

Consolation wicket for Shami as he gets YJB to play on...

Actually getting balls to move around quite sharply this over . I don't think batting tomorrow will be all that easy.

Buttler goes for a duck now as England look to push on...might get bowled out , I suppose . Though Sam Curran is up next...

All gone a bit wobbly since Root holed out...

Two free scorers come and gone... Just past 400 lead but as Holding says if they can't bowl India out in 100 overs they never will ; so Root probably won't give them 130 to chase it.

Forty minutes after tea , I reckon. Will give the commentators something to argue about

alfie wrote:All gone a bit wobbly since Root holed out...

Two free scorers come and gone... Just past 400 lead but as Holding says if they can't bowl India out in 100 overs they never will ; so Root probably won't give them 130 to chase it.

Forty minutes after tea , I reckon. Will give the commentators something to argue about

Agree - 30/40 minutes post tea, then have a good hour and a bit at them tonight - and then the ball will still be new enough in the morning too (especially with overcast conditions predicted tomorrow).

alfie wrote:Consolation wicket for Shami as he gets YJB to play on...

Actually getting balls to move around quite sharply this over . I don't think batting tomorrow will be all that easy.

Buttler goes for a duck now as England look to push on...might get bowled out , I suppose .  Though Sam Curran is up next...

You'd hope if England were 8 down in this situation they'd just call it, rather than allow India the small moral victory of bowling them out. Doubt Anderson would be in a rush to get his pads on at any rate.

After tea keep batting for a 450 lead, 8 down or 20 overs left in the day. As soon as you get to one of those things, bring them in and go across to the bowlers.

450 in 110 for India is only a theoretical chase. They'd need Sehwag to blast 100 of them off this evening to have any hope going into Day 5. Short of Dhawan doing that for them tonight, they'll look to play for the draw and England can keep the field up throughout.

450 is way more than sufficient.
Anytime is good to declare. The evenings can be very tricky with lights and the red ball. Get teo good goes at Infia with relatively fresh bowlers and a newish ball.
It could well be pretty much over by lunch

Would advise everyone to pile on the 4/11 currently available on England winning.

Duty281 wrote:Would advise everyone to pile on the 4/11 currently available on England winning.

India 1/2...not going to have many easier paydays than this one.

Or maybe the pitch wasn’t that bad and India are awful

omg India 3 wickets down for two runs.   Anderson needs one more to equal McGraths record.  Anderson has equalled McGrath's record - he needs one more to beat it. Kohli was dismissed first ball by Broad.

Hopes of selling a loy of tickets for tomorrow gone then

I have noted that Kohli's batting assurance has weakened as the series has progressed. Here Broad bowls straight but fairly wide of wicket. Kohli could have easily left it. But he stretched out with a vertical bat, and edged it to Bairstow. It was a poor dismissal. The other two dismissals (Dhawan & Pujara) were lbws from two great deliveries from Anderson.

All happening rather quickly this evening , eh ? Get another one now and they'll be thinking this could be over tonight !

Not too surprised ...thought the Cook/Root stand had pretty much finished them off mentally. India have fought manfully but they've finally run out of petrol in this game.

4-1 will be a little unfair to them ; but for all England's - still apparent - shortcomings , they've won the big moments for most of the series and earned a result that few predicted back before the first match.

Rahul looks to have decided he might as well go down swinging...

alfie wrote:All happening rather quickly this evening , eh ? Get another one now and they'll be thinking this could be over tonight !

Not too surprised ...thought the Cook/Root stand had pretty much finished them off mentally. India have fought manfully but they've finally run out of petrol in this game.

4-1 will be a little unfair to them ; but for all England's - still apparent - shortcomings , they've won the big moments for most of the series and earned a result that few predicted back before the first match.

Rahul looks to have decided he might as well go down swinging...

It was the exact same when we went to Aus and lost 4-0 though, and I'm sure when we went to India last. We put together a nice few patches, a nice couple of sessions, but couldn't win the key moments. Home advantage is becoming so big.

The only way this innings could have been any better is if Anderson's record-breaking wicket had been Kohli. But to see him go for a duck pretty much ends any small hope India had.

Rahul is having a go at anything now, if we get him soon, we could be looking at claiming the extra half hour...

I have long said England should have specialists for different conditions.  Send promising youngsters or early career cricketers to India, Pakistan, Australia etc to play in the equivalent of their county leagues to improve their various skills and to gain experience. Maybe they wouldn't be good enough to get in - but surely there must be training programmes they could go on.

Yes the home team tends to win most of the time these days...and when touring sides get behind they often rather fold up as the tour goes on...
Would like to see tours involving more warm ups , and games between Tests : in the "old days" those gave the visitors a bit more chance to tune their game , and readjust when things were going badly...but the reality of the modern game with all the dashing about between ODIs etc seems to preclude that sort of timetable. A pity ,I think.

Surprised it was only three down in the end. Great day though, Cook signing off in style, Root back in the runs, then the drama of 2-3, bringing back memories of Devon Malcolm tearing in here all those years ago

£20 per head for adults wanting to go along tomorrow. Think that's a bit steep given the match situation and the money already generated over days 1 to 4 but Gould (Surrey CEO) doesn't give much away.

What do our Indian friends think of Pants keepi g? He hasnt been helped by the conditions and lack of accuracy but he really looks out of his depth and too static.
Hindsight pick that maybe Rahul and another proper bowler (or Hardik) might have been a legit option....albeit with the benefit of knowing sharma would break.
In a way his injury was almost inevitable. It may explain why he was down on pace in the first innings too. The senior 3 infian seamers have bowled a lot through the series witjout the benefit most of the english one have had if either having barely played for a few months (anderson and broad) or being rotated for various reasons (stokes woakes curran)...on top of which England have the luxury of 6 bowlers for the last two tests.

No question India were hurt by relying too much on jadeja.

But England really made the most of their chance, in ways they have failed to far too often recently. Shows the potential this side has when players actually turn up (they can even carry jennings)

guildfordbat wrote:£20 per head for adults wanting to go along tomorrow. Think that's a bit steep given the match situation and the money already generated over days 1 to 4 but Gould (Surrey CEO) doesn't give much away.

Would presume Cook's last ever day and Jimmy's chance to go ahead of McGrath in total test wickets would make this less than just a few wickets in a won series and almost won game. But, there's 7 wickets to play on the last day of Test cricket this summer, plus those two historic notables, so it's not bad.

--A Fairy Tale End for Cook 100 on debut and in his last inning.......I can't recollect anyone other than Gavasakr having such a brilliant start & a great end to their career......& On a winning note ( presumably) for cook unlike gavaskar's ending in a heart-break defeat

--after fighting hard for 4.75 tests...today was the day India broke down....and Kohli cracked mentally and fully......was visible in his gambling away the reviews and his tame dismissal...the consequence of defeat  aftermath was playing on his mind

--Nevertheless there is no pressure tomm on India as the fans have resigned themselves to a defeat...and so players can play freely tomm.....Rahul & Pant will be fighting for their places....and Rahane to give himself some more cushion
I want to see Shami apply himself for a 15 odd

--Kohli agrgression as a captain and detemrination as a batsman are his extreme positives.....but following of his captaincy flaws have been exposed:

1) In wanting to show he's aggressiveness he doesn't cover the downsides....such as the need for more batting / batsmen in the side...such as rotating seamers.....ishant could have  been rested...suhc as what is ashwin breaks down if playing him when he is only 80% fit

2) Tries to manufacture test cricketer out of limited over successful players....such as Rohit, Pandya and Dhawan

3) tries to fix what ain't broke such as dropping Rahane, Pujara, Vijay (in SA and lanka) and sometimes tinkers with  ashwin too

He may pay the price in the form of losing Shastri most likely.....his "Yes-man " coach
Shastri shuld have balanced these limitations of Kohli like Kumble was trying to

But Kohli will continue and has shown he learns and dumps what doesn't work for the team...needs a stringer coach who can veto / check him a bot more than shastri did

----In the aftermath for players

Dhawan is gone for good

Pandya hard to see how he will fit in

Pant is done with unless he cracks a 70 odd tomm....

rahul & rahane will stay..Rahane has a longer rope

Vihari has stood up and a hope for future...hope he gets a 30 odd  in second inning also

I would give Vijay a recall...but am not sure if selectors will & Prithvi shaw will come in

Shreyas Iyer should be the back-up should Rahane fail

Bowling allrounder is a mirage......so India should aim for batting allrounder in Vijay shankar as seam bowler and Jayant Yadav when an additional spin allrounder needed

Saha should be back as WK

guildfordbat wrote:£20 per head for adults wanting to go along tomorrow. Think that's a bit steep given the match situation and the money already generated over days 1 to 4 but Gould (Surrey CEO) doesn't give much away.

You have to consider the economics of it all. Going to the cinema in London might cost £12 per adult. Having a coffee and a biscuit £4.00. Having a meal in a sit down restaurant £25. A ticket for the London Eye £27.

Also this should be the last day of the series - so will include all the award giving, interviews etc. So there will be sport and there will be ceremony.

KP_fan wrote:

Pant is done with unless he cracks a 70 odd tomm....



Saha should be back as WK

Bit of a harsh assement on Pant but he needs to work on both aspects of his game. Done for now maybe, but it doesnt means theres no way back for him in a year or two. It was a tough ask to come to England for the first time and go straight into tests where the ball was moving so much, but he certainly got all of his frailties fully exposed.

Saha...hes going to be 34 by the time hes fit to play again, reports are hes missing the Aus tour. he wont have played any red ball cricket for a year by then. Not a short term or longer term option, nor such a giant of the game that youd think he was a must pick regardless of fitness and form. I know Indian players tend to go on longer than England ones but hes not going to be moving any better or likely to improve after injuries at that age.

Bharat, the main India A keeper, is the one being talked up. Doesnt have great pedigree with the bat but from what I read considered the best gloveman in Ranji.

Gooseberry wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Pant is done with unless he cracks a 70 odd tomm....



Saha should be back as WK

Bit of a harsh assement on Pant but he needs to work on both aspects of his game. Done for now maybe, but it doesnt means theres no way back for him in a year or two. It was a tough ask to come to England for the first time and go straight into tests where the ball was moving so much, but he certainly got all of his frailties fully exposed.

Saha...hes going to be 34 by the time hes fit to play again, reports are hes missing the Aus tour. he wont have played any red ball cricket for a year by then. Not a short term or longer term option, nor such a giant of the game that youd think he was a must pick regardless of fitness and form. I know Indian players tend to go on longer than England ones but hes not going to be moving any better or likely to improve after injuries at that age.

Bharat, the main India A keeper, is the one being talked up. Doesnt have great pedigree with the bat but from what I read considered the best gloveman in Ranji.

I didn't know Saha is already unavailable for Aus
Duleep trophy is ongoing and Ranji season will start, there are always some A games and any / all of those can be used to give Saha match practise...is he were to be medically fit
In trying to build for future we can't sacrifice present.....if Saha can give 2 more top years then we take those
I would prefer an experienced Ranji campaigner as the next WK....and Ishan Kishen & Sameul Jackson should be in consideration.....Jackson is more classical test match batsman & Ishan more like Pant...a flat track slogger

India have their best seam attack they have ever had which is a big plus. The downside is that their batting is not the best. Not sure they have the stickability with the willow and when India's top order collapses pretty cheaply that has cost them in this series. The bowlers though are excellent so their batting fallacies have to be worked on but they have to be persevered with. That means the top order really need to step up and be more solid. Of course I am only speaking of this series and no doubt msp and kp fan will know far more than me about their side but that is my observations.

Stuart Broad has broken a rib it seems, so unlikely to bowl today. Hopefully he won't be needed.

Marky wrote:Stuart Broad has broken a rib it seems, so unlikely to bowl today. Hopefully he won't be needed.

Hmm evidently Broad is fine as he is bowling.

Nice (worrying?) stat from Cricwiz:

The average for openers in the County Championship this summer has been 28.95, the lowest since 2000.

Duty281 wrote:Nice (worrying?) stat from Cricwiz:

The average for openers in the County Championship this summer has been 28.95, the lowest since 2000.

Shows what we all know...cupboard is pretty pretty bare!

CaledonianCraig wrote:India have their best seam attack they have ever had which is a big plus. The downside is that their batting is not the best. Not sure they have the stickability with the willow and when India's top order collapses pretty cheaply that has cost them in this series. The bowlers though are excellent so their batting fallacies have to be worked on but they have to be persevered with. That means the top order really need to step up and be more solid. Of course I am only speaking of this series and no doubt msp and kp fan will know far more than me about their side but that is my observations.

Expecting that this is merely an issue in England with the swinging ball - I fancy the Indian batsman to go very well against Aus in Aus over (our) winter

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Nice (worrying?) stat from Cricwiz:

The average for openers in the County Championship this summer has been 28.95, the lowest since 2000.

Shows what we all know...cupboard is pretty pretty bare!

And that the CC is often played in ridiculously bowler friendly conditions where reasonably average trundlers can swing the ball round corners

Marky wrote:Stuart Broad has broken a rib it seems, so unlikely to bowl today. Hopefully he won't be needed.

Guess there's broken ribs and broken ribs...if he can bowl at 80 plus I suspect there is some exaggeration in that medical report .

alfie wrote:

Marky wrote:Stuart Broad has broken a rib it seems, so unlikely to bowl today. Hopefully he won't be needed.

Guess there's broken ribs and broken ribs...if he can bowl at 80 plus I suspect there is some exaggeration in that medical report .

The cynical part of brain is saying it might be an "injury" that keeps Broad out of the last couple of round of county championship games...giving him a proper rest ahead of the winter...

Wonder if Jimmy may pick up a similar niggle...