Wales 2018/2019 - Fixture list included and squad to be added

First topic message reminder :

Never too early right? Warren Gatland, one of the leading coaches in world rugby, will step down after the 2018/19 season with fellow Kiwi and current Scarlets coach Wayne Pivac succeeding him. Gatland is Wales’ longest serving head coach in the professional era.

2018 AUTUMN TESTS

(at Principality Stadium, Cardiff)

Saturday, 3 November

Wales v Scotland (14:45 GMT)

Saturday, 10 November

Wales v Australia (17:20 GMT)

Saturday, 17 November

Wales v Tonga (14:30 GMT)

Saturday, 24 November

Wales v South Africa (17:20 GMT)

2019 SIX NATIONS

Friday, 1 February

France v Wales (Stade de France; 20:00 GMT)

Saturday, 9 February

Italy v Wales (Stadio Olimpico; 16:45 GMT)

Saturday, 23 February

Wales v England (Principality Stadium; 16:45 GMT)

Saturday, 9 March

Scotland v Wales (Murrayfield; 14:15 GMT)

Saturday, 16 March

Wales v Ireland (Principality Stadium; 14:45 GMT)

2019 RUGBY WORLD CUP WARM-UPS

Sunday, 11 August

England v Wales (Twickenham; ko tbc)

Saturday, 17 August

Wales v England (Principality Stadium; ko tbc)

Saturday, 31 August

Wales v Ireland (Principality Stadium; ko tbc)

Saturday, 7 September

Ireland v Wales (Aviva Stadium; ko tbc)

2019 RUGBY WORLD CUP - Pool D

Monday, 23 September

Wales v Georgia (Toyota Stadium, Toyota City; 11:15 BST)

Sunday, 2 September

Wales v Australia (Tokyo Stadium, Tokyo; 08:45 BST)

Wednesday, 9 October

Wales v Fiji (Oita Stadium, Oita; 10:45 BST)

Sunday, 13 October

Wales v Uruguay (Kumamoto Prefectural Athletic Stadium, Kumamoto City; 09:15 BST)

*Note that dates and times are subject to change

Not out of ordinary to hope for an autumn clean sweep and if we are to do well at the World Cup then that way of thinking becomes necessity. Australia will be our toughest game, SA will be twice as good as the last 5 SA teams we’ve played against. 6N starts with two away games with France up first - that I think we can win but need to move away from the attritional play, it didn’t work last season. Should be a close tournament with also what I suspect will be an improved Italy. Those RWC warm-ups will be brutal, but if held in August then all teams should be at full strength injuries permitting. Pretty good preparation, but need to win all home games at least.

If the World Cup fixture list is correct then it works in our favour. Hopefully we go in on the back of some momentum, we face a tough but very winnable game first up. Short turnaround between Fiji and Uruguay, but Uruguay is the team you’d like to make changes against. I think we should make some wholesale changes for that, perhaps a similar team to what recently faced off against the Puma’s. We should still get maximum points.

My extended Wales squad for the entire season (players added and removed at Gatlands discretion at different points throughout the season).
Prop: Rob Evans, Nicky Smith, Wyn Jones, Samson Lee, Tomas Francis, Leon Brown, Dillon Lewis
Hooker: Ken Owens, Elliott Dee, Ryan Elias, Scott Otten
Lock: Alun Wyn Jones, Bradley Davies, Cory Hill, Jake Ball, Adam Beard
Back row: Aaron Shingler, Ross Moriarty, Taulupe Faletau, Josh Navidi, Justin Tipuric, Ellis Jenkins, Ollie Griffiths
Scrum half: Gareth Davies, Tomos Williams, Rhodri Williams, Jonny Evans, Rhys Webb
Outside half: Rhys Patchell, Gareth Anscombe, Dan Biggar, Jarrod Evans, Dan Jones
Centre: Hadleigh Parkes, Jonathan Davies, Owen Watkin, Scott Williams, Cory Allen
Back three: Liam Williams, George North, Steffan Evans, Josh Adams, Hallam Amos, Dafydd Howells, Leigh Halfpenny

Actual squads to be added below each time they are announced.


Under Armour Series: Wales v Scotland, Australia, Tonga & South Africa
Venue: Principality Stadium, Cardiff Dates: Saturdays 3, 10, 17 & 24 November

Forwards: Rob Evans (Scarlets), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Elliot Dee (Dragons), Ryan Elias (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Leon Brown (Dragons), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (capt, Ospreys), Ellis Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Dan Lydiate (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons).
Backs: Aled Davies (Ospreys), Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints), Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Tyler Morgan (Dragons), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Owen Watkin (Ospreys), Josh Adams (Worcester Warriors), Steffan Evans (Scarlets), Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets), Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers), Luke Morgan (Ospreys), George North (Ospreys), Liam Williams (Saracens).
https://www.606v2.com/t67927p50-wales-2018-2019-fixture-list-included-and-squad-to-be-added#3743020

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:Turnbull won't play in this tournament. He's there to hold tackle bags. It's better to have a 30ish year old do that, particularly when he can come in and not be a liability as an uncapped player would.

This is one of the stupidest things I've read in a while. If an uncapped player's going to be a liability (not that Griffiths is uncapped) then we'd better not give a debut to anyone ever again.

Is it a bit different being RWC year?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:Turnbull won't play in this tournament. He's there to hold tackle bags. It's better to have a 30ish year old do that, particularly when he can come in and not be a liability as an uncapped player would.

This is one of the stupidest things I've read in a while.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36533500

Knew he toured post-RWC with Wales. I'd guess there are others, too, but cba looking further.

Why's it stupid? Genuinely? When has Gatland ever used the full squad/dropped his favourites unless injury has forced him to? In which case, Turnbull is there as a utility back 5 player who, if called upon in a crisis, will fill a hole. If/when Shingler and Faletau are back fit, Navidi fills that versatile field lower down the squad. Seb Davies too. Turnbull's there because he's not going to play unless Wales are really struggling with injuries.

He also adds experience, not just of the Wales camp but of life/rugby in general. I genuinely don't know if people/posters understand the value or what a group (not just sport) 'needs' to be successful. Gatland clearly likes him, evidenced by the fact he toured in 2016. Just because someone doesn't play doesn't mean they don't add value to the team on the pitch.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/27949781

Turnbull played against SA in 2014. Feel like I'm done now/vindicated even if there are more examples.

And the bit about uncapped players being liabilities, miaow?

F it. Here we go:

http://www.wru.wales/eng/matchcentre/wales_seniors.php?player=33334&includeref=dynamic

Easy enough to find.

I remember the lions players saying that when o’driscol was dropped for the final test in Australia that he was invaluable encouraging the Xbox, working hard to improve and assist players in training.

Squad members and the way they work is imperative to a successful campaign.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And the bit about uncapped players being liabilities, miaow?

What, you want an explanation for why inexperience makes someone a liability, particularly when that player isn't at a level (collectively or individually) where they are clearly ready for the step up to test level?

Na...

Okay so Wainwright is a liability then, and Cubby, Jenkins is very inexperienced, Shingler and Navidi have only a few caps....

George north must have been a huge liability when he scored a brace on debut

miaow wrote: particularly when that player isn't at a level (collectively or individually) where they are clearly ready for the step up to test level

Dragons are useless boys. You watch them (presumably...) every week, you should know this?

You've moved the goalposts, miaow. Your original statement's at the top of the page.

No, no, I'm just explaining what you perceive to be 'one of the stupidest things you've read in a while'. Honestly, there's no other way to say this, but I think you're probably just too dense to get it. There's not much point persisting with extra explanation if it's going to be called 'moving the goalposts' ( ).

This seems to be your response to anyone who challenges you, miaow. 'No offence, but you're too stupid to understand'. All it does is suggest that it's all you have left.

What's the point? It seems a waste of time explaining to someone why - in this context - picking a relatively inexperienced club player, who is perhaps 6th choice (Tipuric, Jenkins, Navidi, J Davies, Young) at best in his position for Wales, to come in this close to a RWC is a liability and pointless? Players returning from injury, ability to pick another more versatile/needed player (cover second row), and then experience. Wainwright was a liability against SA - just about coped with the physcality, but they targeted him fairly successfully for a while (even pushing the line too far with one blatant penalty clearing him out at a ruck). Did it have a huge impact on the game? Arguably not as Wales, but these things matter at test level.

Add in the fact that the Dragons must have horrible mentality due to losing so frequently, and it's not what you need at test level.

If you still don't get it, there's no point persisting. And you opened the door for claims of stupidity - don't now back down and play the victim here, as if what I've said was unprovoked. I've merely stated that your interpretation of stupidity is to do with your perception, rather than the content of my words. Nothing too contentious.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:Turnbull won't play in this tournament. He's there to hold tackle bags. It's better to have a 30ish year old do that, particularly when he can come in and not be a liability as an uncapped player would.

This is one of the stupidest things I've read in a while. If an uncapped player's going to be a liability (not that Griffiths is uncapped) then we'd better not give a debut to anyone ever again.

Yeah it’s a little stupid as how else would we cap new players when we need to? I’m not saying cap a load of new boys, and I’m not vouching for the outstanding Griffiths either as he’s struggled with injury too much to get a look-in (which makes selecting 3+ injured players all the more daft to me). You may as well have taken someone like Griffiths over him as he’s clearly going to be more of a regular in the future, and would learn a lot even by not playing for Wales. Griff was clearly ready to step up when he graduated from U20 rugby, but was unfortunately blighted by injury again, and not sure who he would have replaced at the time either.  I don’t remember Wainright struggling against SA’s physicality and neither does anyone else, especially seeing as his conditioning is up there with the best in Wales (according to reports). Cubby not in it for me, unless we get 5 injured open-sides. He might get a look-in with Pivac but surely even he can tell by now that it is actually Cubby who struggles with the physicality at this level. Plus we also got enough of Tips standing on the wing in the past, we don’t need a repeat. I don’t see a case for not picking Dragons players who ARE good enough; those picked have each made the step up quite comfortably, and it’s also a big contributing factor to Wales’ strength in depth.

I’ve already stated what I think is wrong with Turnbull, but I’ll also say that he’s perhaps the most overrated-average player in the world. I believe it’s his first 6N for 8 years, not test match... if you’re even calling that embarrassment against the Chiefs a test match. Hopefully he is actually there for tackle bag duty only so Thomas Young can add to his 2 caps and become one of those experienced players. I also would have selected another new cap (shoot me) on the wing, yes Owen Lane well ahead of Steff Evans who can’t cut the mustard at this level - he’s possibly just a decent club player?
Whilst on the subject, there is absolutely no case what so ever for even thinking that Aled Davies should be anywhere near this squad. We desperately need the door to be opened for Rhys Webb, especially given Gareth Davies’ complete lack of control and failure to generate quick ball in the autumn series.

LP I do feel sorry for you, having to deal with some of those dog Poopie replies for disagreeing with stupid posts, and for just disagreeing with posts. Yeah, it’s best to respond the way you have done, like an adult.

miaow wrote:What's the point? It seems a waste of time explaining to someone why - in this context - picking a relatively inexperienced club player, who is perhaps 6th choice (Tipuric, Jenkins, Navidi, J Davies, Young) at best in his position for Wales, to come in this close to a RWC is a liability and pointless? Players returning from injury, ability to pick another more versatile/needed player (cover second row), and then experience. Wainwright was a liability against SA - just about coped with the physcality, but they targeted him fairly successfully for a while (even pushing the line too far with one blatant penalty clearing him out at a ruck). Did it have a huge impact on the game? Arguably not as Wales, but these things matter at test level.

Add in the fact that the Dragons must have horrible mentality due to losing so frequently, and it's not what you need at test level.

If you still don't get it, there's no point persisting. And you opened the door for claims of stupidity - don't now back down and play the victim here, as if what I've said was unprovoked. I've merely stated that your interpretation of stupidity is to do with your perception, rather than the content of my words. Nothing too contentious.

Miaow, listen. I’ll refer you again to your original post, the one I’m talking about, the one that’s at the top of the page, that you seem to have forgotten about. It’s this:

‘Turnbull won't play in this tournament. He's there to hold tackle bags. It's better to have a 30ish year old do that, particularly when he can come in and not be a liability as an uncapped player would.’

Why is it better to have a 30-odd-year-old holding tackle bags? And what makes a 30-odd-year-old any less of a liability than a player who’s been good enough to be called up, but who has committed the grave sin of not having been capped before? (N.B. I know Griffiths hasn’t been called up, and isn’t uncapped).

mikey_dragon wrote:I don’t remember Wainright struggling against SA’s physicality and neither does anyone else, especially seeing as his conditioning is up there with the best in Wales (according to reports).

You sound like Trump. It's actally eerie.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:What's the point? It seems a waste of time explaining to someone why - in this context - picking a relatively inexperienced club player, who is perhaps 6th choice (Tipuric, Jenkins, Navidi, J Davies, Young) at best in his position for Wales, to come in this close to a RWC is a liability and pointless? Players returning from injury, ability to pick another more versatile/needed player (cover second row), and then experience. Wainwright was a liability against SA - just about coped with the physcality, but they targeted him fairly successfully for a while (even pushing the line too far with one blatant penalty clearing him out at a ruck). Did it have a huge impact on the game? Arguably not as Wales, but these things matter at test level.

Add in the fact that the Dragons must have horrible mentality due to losing so frequently, and it's not what you need at test level.

If you still don't get it, there's no point persisting. And you opened the door for claims of stupidity - don't now back down and play the victim here, as if what I've said was unprovoked. I've merely stated that your interpretation of stupidity is to do with your perception, rather than the content of my words. Nothing too contentious.

Miaow, listen. I’ll refer you again to your original post, the one I’m talking about, the one that’s at the top of the page, that you seem to have forgotten about. It’s this:

‘Turnbull won't play in this tournament. He's there to hold tackle bags. It's better to have a 30ish year old do that, particularly when he can come in and not be a liability as an uncapped player would.’

Why is it better to have a 30-odd-year-old holding tackle bags? And what makes a 30-odd-year-old any less of a liability than a player who’s been good enough to be called up, but who has committed the grave sin of not having been capped before? (N.B. I know Griffiths hasn’t been called up, and isn’t uncapped).

Luckless, unforunately this was literally why I wondered if you might be too dense - instead of reading between the lines, or perhaps seeking clarification, you've gone ahead and accused me of stupidity.

See, what you've done here, Luckless, is mistake an idiomatic phrase - 'holding tackle bags' - as one that is purely literal. As in 'literally holding tackle bags', rather than the somewhat derisory and euphemistic description used to brand a player who doesn't stand much chance of making the matchday 23. If you haven't heard it before, then allow me to explain.

In this context, it's not quite as damning as it is sometimes used...but it's still not exactly praise as it means he's still very unlikely to get a game - what it actually means is that Turnbull is there because he won't require any specific 'managing' or initiation, as an inexperienced or uncapped player would, as he's a senior player who's been in and around the team for nearly a decade (two test caps off the bench last season in the 2018 Summer tour - not looking great on the 'he hasn't played for 8 years' front!). He'll slot into the squad with little disruption. He's probably a well liked/respected member of the squad. With Faletau and Warburton gone, and Shingler and Jenkins injured, an old head in the back row for Wainwright and Moriarty to train alongside might just help them because there is an experience gap in several positions between the 2011 squad and those breaking into the first XV now. If you don't understand how intangible, yet useful, experience can be then it tells me you've probably not played the game. It might only be tiny in the pro game, but it will still make a difference. He'll likely know the calls, the expectations, and day to day experience of Wales camp and that means the coaches can focus on other things/players as well...I can't believe I'm having to spell this out as it's so boring/obvious...but there we go! That's what holding tackle bags means - he's there to be a good, non-playing squad member. If Wales are seriously hit with injuries - particularly to Seb Davies or Shingler - then Turnbull might even sneak onto the RWC squad as well, so it's no surprise Gatland would want him in the squad when Wales are in a RWC year. There is no blooding for the future for Gatland now. There's only whatever will give Wales the best chance of winning the RWC. When I say 'come in', I mean 'come into the team' - as in actually play, if injuries dictated it. For obvious reasons, if Wales have been training all week with the intention of playing Tipuric at 7, say, and he gets injured on a Wednesday, then Navidi goes down on the Friday, and you're left with Griffiths having to come in on short notice and lack of preparation - he would be a liability. More of a liability than Turnbull. That's what experience is - Turnbul, without pulling up trees, has always done a fairly solid job of not letting Wales down. It would be foolish to throw Griffiths in there - as happened to Patchell against England - and potentially set him back in his development. He's a good probably 2 years away from competing for a Wales place, in part because of injuries. If those championing him now were actually fans and not trying to weirdly point-score on the back of some supposed regional allegiance, surely you wouldn't want him potentially thrown under the bus against England or Ireland?

The fundamental issue here - one that you're overlooking for the sake of having an overly literal reading of language and the written word - is that Turnbull replaces Shingler. Griffiths is a very different player, would fill a different role for Wales' system, and is further down the pecking order in his position than Turnbull is in his (as a versatile 4/6 he's probably 3rd choice). It's not quite like for like for Shingler, but at this stage, it's close. There are many reasons why that might be - not least because Shingler might be parachuted back into the 6 shirt in Japan even if he hasn't played, and Turnbull is effectively his 'body double' for training sessions now. In a way, Wainwright is a similar player, too. It's a RWC year. Don't forget that. This period has always been Wales' weakest under Gatland, before peaking at the WC. I'd expect them to be more competitive now it's his last 6Ns, but I wouldn't be surprised if Gatland knows his first team already and has one eye fixed firmly on how to beat Australia in wet/humid conditions.

If in doubt, here's a good article to read: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44268023  Shingler injured, Turnbull replaces him. No suprise that 6 months later the exact same thing has happened again...unless you don't actually like rugby/know anything about it at all, of course!

It's not ridiculous to call-up Turnbull. Those criticising it sound like conspiray theorists...and unfortunately, Luckless, I stand by my assessment. Perhaps don't be so trigger happy on the accusations of stupidity next time.

Ollie Griffiths and Aaron Wainwright were stand out performers in an awful Dragons result last night against an immense Clermont team.

I am not sure I agree with the idea of holding a place open. Especially for Shingler, he’s been out of the game for a very long time. We can only hope he finds decent form on return. Likewise Ellis Jenkins.

I hope that Josh Turnbull and Thomas Young, who have likely replaced them in this years squad, both have exceptional tournaments, making selection for the Final RWC squad far more intriguing.

The depth in the backriw cane from players stepping up to cover injured lads. Shingler, particularly, was regularly written off at international level before last season. And then he took his chances when he got back in. Turnbull could well be the same.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The depth in the backriw cane from players stepping up to cover injured lads.  Shingler, particularly, was regularly written off at international level before last season.  And then he took his chances when he got back in.  Turnbull could well be the same.

I agree. Likewise Wainwright last summer.

Considering when Gatland took over in 2008 he had to convince Martyn Williams not to retire because we had so little depth in the backrow we are now blessed with superb competition for places.

maestegmafia wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The depth in the backriw cane from players stepping up to cover injured lads.  Shingler, particularly, was regularly written off at international level before last season.  And then he took his chances when he got back in.  Turnbull could well be the same.

I agree. Likewise Wainwright last summer.

Considering when Gatland took over in 2008 he had to convince Martyn Williams not to retire because we had so little depth in the backrow we are now blessed with superb competition for places.

That situation arose because we had people like Sowden-Taylor earmarked as the heir apparent, and put him in the squad repeatedly regardless of form or who else was around at the time.

Good finish by Steff Evans, in the first half. Similarly a good finish by Owen Lane earlier today too.

RiscaGame wrote:Good finish by Steff Evans, in the first half. Similarly a good finish by Owen Lane earlier today too.

Steff Evans had some great moments on the ball today I agree. Haven’t seen the blues match yet.

Hadley Parkes seemed to be on better form too.

Score line didn’t reflect the match is was much closer than the score eludes

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The depth in the backriw cane from players stepping up to cover injured lads.  Shingler, particularly, was regularly written off at international level before last season.  And then he took his chances when he got back in.  Turnbull could well be the same.

I agree. Likewise Wainwright last summer.

Considering when Gatland took over in 2008 he had to convince Martyn Williams not to retire because we had so little depth in the backrow we are now blessed with superb competition for places.

That situation arose because we had people like Sowden-Taylor earmarked as the heir apparent, and put him in the squad repeatedly regardless of form or who else was around at the time.

Wow, the bad old days. It is easy to look at Ireland and England and forget the progress Wales have made in the last 15 years. Gatland spoke in the week about his legacy, that it will be 'putting pride back in the shirt'. I think that's a pretty good assessment and the strength in depth in certain positions, like the back-row, is a testament to the fact Wales have had a few world class players like Warburton and Faletau, and then a number of very good players as well during his time as Head Coach (and hopefully beyond).

Also good to see the Scarlets players turning things around in the last 2 weeks. They've always been very streaky under Pivac - which might be a worry for Wales next year, but let's wait and see. In the season they won the league they'd carried over their form from the last half of the previous season (demotivated, lacking intensity, losing gmes0. Some of the more fickle/idiotic/tabloid-esque posters on here were saying Pivac was useless/should be sacked etc. - I'm sure someone could dredge that up if they wanted to. But the point is they weren't playing well, and pre-season hadn't been a line under the previous season...it took some more bedding in until they started to click, and the likes of Beirne started to shine. It's always the way with a positive/attacking philosophy - it takes longer to get up to speed and there's more 'risk' therefore more can go wrong. It'll be the antithesis to Gatland in many ways. Anyway, it's good to see what will be some key players for Wales in the RWC performing against Racing, even if they lost. Steff Evans has so much natural ability that I hope he makes it. No-one in Wales comes close to his 'trickery' with the ball. Closest thing Wales have had to Shane since...Shane. Just lacks the top end pace - if he had it, the other deficiencies could be overlooked/compensated. It's a shame. I do think there was space for Lane or Rosser to have a go in the squad, but it could be a case of Gatland throwing one of them in at the RWC, going in 'blind' so to speak. I doubt many other nations would be anticipating either winger to be a Welsh starter (and probably won't if 1/2P, LW and GN are fit) but Wales haven't really found a Cuthbert replacement and both of those wingers do the job decently at club level and have good gas.

Not a bad weekend for Welsh teams in Europe, good performances all round it seems despite that being it for the season now (that needs to change). Blues probably get the highest marks overall considering where they were 12-18 months ago as well.

All eyes of the France game.

RiscaGame wrote:Good finish by Steff Evans, in the first half. Similarly a good finish by Owen Lane earlier today too.

They gave Steff MOTM right? He was good but not their best player; I thought Dan Davis and Johnny McNicholl were better. Plus scarlets found it easy to work down that left wing often which made Steff Evans look better than he actually was. I just don’t think he’s kicked on from his debut season, and perhaps even gone backwards a bit. Lane looked good again as did Harri Millard but no need to throw them in just yet. Blues might have the best backline in Wales now, they’re a couple forward recruits and decent coach away from being a Top team (you can say the same for all our teams I guess).

miaow wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:What's the point? It seems a waste of time explaining to someone why - in this context - picking a relatively inexperienced club player, who is perhaps 6th choice (Tipuric, Jenkins, Navidi, J Davies, Young) at best in his position for Wales, to come in this close to a RWC is a liability and pointless? Players returning from injury, ability to pick another more versatile/needed player (cover second row), and then experience. Wainwright was a liability against SA - just about coped with the physcality, but they targeted him fairly successfully for a while (even pushing the line too far with one blatant penalty clearing him out at a ruck). Did it have a huge impact on the game? Arguably not as Wales, but these things matter at test level.

Add in the fact that the Dragons must have horrible mentality due to losing so frequently, and it's not what you need at test level.

If you still don't get it, there's no point persisting. And you opened the door for claims of stupidity - don't now back down and play the victim here, as if what I've said was unprovoked. I've merely stated that your interpretation of stupidity is to do with your perception, rather than the content of my words. Nothing too contentious.

Miaow, listen. I’ll refer you again to your original post, the one I’m talking about, the one that’s at the top of the page, that you seem to have forgotten about. It’s this:

‘Turnbull won't play in this tournament. He's there to hold tackle bags. It's better to have a 30ish year old do that, particularly when he can come in and not be a liability as an uncapped player would.’

Why is it better to have a 30-odd-year-old holding tackle bags? And what makes a 30-odd-year-old any less of a liability than a player who’s been good enough to be called up, but who has committed the grave sin of not having been capped before? (N.B. I know Griffiths hasn’t been called up, and isn’t uncapped).

Luckless, unforunately this was literally why I wondered if you might be too dense - instead of reading between the lines, or perhaps seeking clarification, you've gone ahead and accused me of stupidity.

See, what you've done here, Luckless, is mistake an idiomatic phrase - 'holding tackle bags' - as one that is purely literal. As in 'literally holding tackle bags', rather than the somewhat derisory and euphemistic description used to brand a player who doesn't stand much chance of making the matchday 23. If you haven't heard it before, then allow me to explain.

In this context, it's not quite as damning as it is sometimes used...but it's still not exactly praise as it means he's still very unlikely to get a game - what it actually means is that Turnbull is there because he won't require any specific 'managing' or initiation, as an inexperienced or uncapped player would, as he's a senior player who's been in and around the team for nearly a decade (two test caps off the bench last season in the 2018 Summer tour - not looking great on the 'he hasn't played for 8 years' front!). He'll slot into the squad with little disruption. He's probably a well liked/respected member of the squad. With Faletau and Warburton gone, and Shingler and Jenkins injured, an old head in the back row for Wainwright and Moriarty to train alongside might just help them because there is an experience gap in several positions between the 2011 squad and those breaking into the first XV now. If you don't understand how intangible, yet useful, experience can be then it tells me you've probably not played the game. It might only be tiny in the pro game, but it will still make a difference. He'll likely know the calls, the expectations, and day to day experience of Wales camp and that means the coaches can focus on other things/players as well...I can't believe I'm having to spell this out as it's so boring/obvious...but there we go! That's what holding tackle bags means - he's there to be a good, non-playing squad member. If Wales are seriously hit with injuries - particularly to Seb Davies or Shingler - then Turnbull might even sneak onto the RWC squad as well, so it's no surprise Gatland would want him in the squad when Wales are in a RWC year. There is no blooding for the future for Gatland now. There's only whatever will give Wales the best chance of winning the RWC. When I say 'come in', I mean 'come into the team' - as in actually play, if injuries dictated it. For obvious reasons, if Wales have been training all week with the intention of playing Tipuric at 7, say, and he gets injured on a Wednesday, then Navidi goes down on the Friday, and you're left with Griffiths having to come in on short notice and lack of preparation - he would be a liability. More of a liability than Turnbull. That's what experience is - Turnbul, without pulling up trees, has always done a fairly solid job of not letting Wales down. It would be foolish to throw Griffiths in there - as happened to Patchell against England - and potentially set him back in his development. He's a good probably 2 years away from competing for a Wales place, in part because of injuries. If those championing him now were actually fans and not trying to weirdly point-score on the back of some supposed regional allegiance, surely you wouldn't want him potentially thrown under the bus against England or Ireland?

The fundamental issue here - one that you're overlooking for the sake of having an overly literal reading of language and the written word - is that Turnbull replaces Shingler. Griffiths is a very different player, would fill a different role for Wales' system, and is further down the pecking order in his position than Turnbull is in his (as a versatile 4/6 he's probably 3rd choice). It's not quite like for like for Shingler, but at this stage, it's close. There are many reasons why that might be - not least because Shingler might be parachuted back into the 6 shirt in Japan even if he hasn't played, and Turnbull is effectively his 'body double' for training sessions now. In a way, Wainwright is a similar player, too. It's a RWC year. Don't forget that. This period has always been Wales' weakest under Gatland, before peaking at the WC. I'd expect them to be more competitive now it's his last 6Ns, but I wouldn't be surprised if Gatland knows his first team already and has one eye fixed firmly on how to beat Australia in wet/humid conditions.

If in doubt, here's a good article to read: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44268023  Shingler injured, Turnbull replaces him. No suprise that 6 months later the exact same thing has happened again...unless you don't actually like rugby/know anything about it at all, of course!

It's not ridiculous to call-up Turnbull. Those criticising it sound like conspiray theorists...and unfortunately, Luckless, I stand by my assessment. Perhaps don't be so trigger happy on the accusations of stupidity next time.

Have I taken 'holding tackle bags' literally, Miaow? Or have I used it just as you've used it?

I'm still not clear why an uncapped player must be a liability, but hey ho, I'm sure it's blindingly obvious.

Also, for clarity, I didn't say it was ridiculous to call up Turnbull, nor did I say that Griffiths should have been called up instead. Go on, have a look.

Cuthbert should be in the squad over Josh Adams as he is much more experienced and therefore less of a liability.

I see the Gwent mafia are on all out attack on this thread, nothing changes.

LordDowlais wrote:I see the Gwent mafia are on all out attack on this thread, nothing changes.

What's your definition of attack, LD?

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I see the Gwent mafia are on all out attack on this thread, nothing changes.

What's your definition of attack, LD?

Expressing a different opinion or a fact that disproves his.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Good finish by Steff Evans, in the first half. Similarly a good finish by Owen Lane earlier today too.

They gave Steff MOTM right? He was good but not their best player; I thought Dan Davis and Johnny McNicholl were better. Plus scarlets found it easy to work down that left wing often which made Steff Evans look better than he actually was. I just don’t think he’s kicked on from his debut season, and perhaps even gone backwards a bit. Lane looked good again as did Harri Millard but no need to throw them in just yet. Blues might have the best backline in Wales now, they’re a couple forward recruits and decent coach away from being a Top team (you can say the same for all our teams I guess).

Dan Davis was superb a great prospect.

Well, you are all either hounding miaow, for answer to questions he has already answered, or you are all just being sarcastic to avoid his point of view.

As I have said previously, nothing changes.

LordDowlais wrote:Well, you are all either hounding miaow, for answer to questions he has already answered, or you are all just being sarcastic to avoid his point of view.

As I have said previously, nothing changes.

Or...Or..... I was being a bit 'tongue in cheek' and having a bit of banter. Hence the smiley face at the end. You see, LD, most of the posters on here I feel I can have a bit of banter with. I like Miaow's posts generally and feel that my post would be taken in good spirit (there's always the risk that it won't though but hey ho).

Don't joke about the Gwent mafia, Dowlais. You might wake up with a horse's @rse in your bed.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Don't joke about the Gwent mafia, Dowlais. You might wake up with a horse's @rse in your bed.

Hey, what you get up to in your own time.......

That's quite good for you, Dowlais!

The Oracle wrote:Cuthbert should be in the squad over Josh Adams as he is much more experienced and therefore less of a liability.

I think that was Gatland's train of thought between 2013 and 2017 as well - unfortunately, Cuthbert's something on an anomaly in that exposure to test rugby showed almost discernible improvement to his temperament nor his general rugby abilities.

Had Cuthbert gone to Exeter 2-3 seasons ago, I think a recall for this WC would have been perfect. He'd have had a lot of the rough edges ironed out and be a much more complete player. Sadly it didn't happen.

How's Cuthbert been getting on at Exeter anyway? I don't keep up with the English prem. Is he getting game time and/or scoring tries?

Not sure he's playing that often. Maybe injured at the moment - saw he was doing punditry last week on BT Sport. Didn't fumble the mic...

I think it was against Munster at Sandy Park that I saw him play, and he still looked 'uncomfortable' - dropping balls, looking a bit clumsy, hitting rucks too late/softly. But he's clearly trying hard. And it's a good environment down there.

They do rotate a lot, particularly in the back 3, and there's no real sense of 'first' XV so it's really up to him what he makes of it. He won't be left to rot in the reserves if he doesn't perform, but I don't think he's good enough to start for them as their game revolves around possession (therefore not spilling the ball). It's the closest thing to 'Warrenball' I've seen at club level, albeit with a more dominant pack and, particularly, lineout.

Give it another 18 months and see how he's doing.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's quite good for you, Dowlais!

And it's only January. That's it now for the year.

SW and Gareth Davies 'major' fitness doubts to play against France.

I'd say Parkes is playing himself into some form again and Tommos Williams is on fire.

Bench options will be limited though.

BRING BACK WEBB

As probably expected, Halfpenny is definitely out also.

RiscaGame wrote:As probably expected, Halfpenny is definitely out also.

f*ck the gutless WRB

I know aye. It’s a farce.

Liam Williams is also currently not training with a broken finger. I can’t see that holding him back mind.

munkian wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:As probably expected, Halfpenny is definitely out also.

f*ck the gutless WRB

Ben O’Keefe didn’t even want to give the blatant foul a 2nd look. Amazing.

I wonder if there are any circumstances in which Wales would just take the hit and bring Webb back; not sure how long his French contract is but there is a chance he could leave at the end of the season and come home in time for tea and medals in Japan.

Pie wrote:I wonder if there are any circumstances in which Wales would just take the hit and bring Webb back; not sure how long his French contract is but there is a chance he could leave at the end of the season and come home in time for tea and medals in Japan.

BRAVO !