England - the winter tours thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

After the perfect ending to the summer, with Alastair Cook riding into the sunset with a hundred and James Anderson breaking Glenn McGrath's record to wrap up a 4-1 series win over the #1 side in the world...England head into a brave new world (in a mere 3 weeks time!) post Cook

Tour of Sri Lanka (Oct-Nov)
5 ODI's played between 10th October and 23rd October
1 T20i played on 27th October
3 Test matches played between 6th November and 23rd November

Tour of West Indies (Jan-Mar)
3 Test matches played between 23rd January and 9th February
5 ODI's played between 20th February and 2nd March
3 T20i's played between 5th March and 10th March

As ever there are many rumblings in the media on potential selections ahead of the Sri Lanka tour...

Rory Burns seems set to take Cook's spot
Will Jennings keep his place? Or will a Vince/Denly or complete wildcard be picked to open with him?
Which spinners do England take along with Moeen/Rashid?
Do Anderson/Broad get rested?
What pace options will be taken?

All questions that will be debated and answered in the coming weeks...so I start with a little competition between us selectors on v2...

Name your test squad for the series in Sri Lanka. Whoever gets the nearest to the actual squad, gets a pair of Ed Smith approved sunglasses

[wisden]

Curran gets a 2nd, 110-5 in the 17th

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Pretty poor knock by Chandimal that - 34 (42) in essentially a T20 game

[robbo277]

Very good returns for Curran and Rashid, and a good bowling performance all round for England. Expensive first up, but Stokes also bowled well without taking any wickets.

A few of the Sri Lankan batsmen didn't contribute with low scores, but it will also be annoying for them that 3 of their top 4 got out for 30, no-one going on for a big 80 that would define their innings.

What's the forecast like for the rest of the evening? It's very unlikely the game will be settled on D/L with 20 overs needed to constitute a game, but if the rain threatens and England have wickets in hand they could aim to head it off by reaching the target in fewer overs.

[guildfordbat]

Pretty poor knock by Chandimal that - 34 (42) in essentially a T20 game

That's also very much the view of my man Key.

Very good bowling as well today from Tom Curran. It was important he took this opportunity and he certainly did. I'm one of the few who is more convinced by Tom than younger brother Sam - time will tell ....

[Duty281]

Superb spell of bowling by Rashid. England cruising to 2-0, and Sri Lanka's truly awful run in ODIs is continuing.

[Duty281]

Bairstow has injured himself playing football.

Makes no odds, the weather forecast for tomorrow's game is absolutely atrocious. Would be highly surprised if there was a result.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I heard he asked to play in goal as he feels it makes him a better goalscorer

[alfie]

Sri Lanka have hauled themselves to a pretty competitive 273...you'd think England face a decent challenge this time ; especially on a spinning pitch against an opponent loaded up with a variety of spinners...

Lively - if odd- start as Malinga's first over produces two sets of four byes plus a Roy boundary. Spin at the other end :

[Duty281]

Decent score that. Looks like Professor Google's prediction of 100% chance of rain in this area of Sri Lanka was wide of the mark!

[alfie]

Bairstow has injured himself playing football.

Makes no odds, the weather forecast for tomorrow's game is absolutely atrocious. Would be highly surprised if there was a result.

Just goes to show you cannot trust weather forecasts...Manchester , Melbourne ...or Kandy . It can always confound expectations. Has been fine so far and looks pretty good for now though there are a few clouds around that might herald a later change...

Solid start for Roy and Hales with 24/0 off five ; though no fireworks since that first over.

[alfie]

Roy getting into his stride now...he fancies the straight hit off Aponso ! That's lifted the run rate...

[Duty281]

England have lost both their openers, but Morgan and Root are steadying things.

Groundstaff lurking, but England comfortably ahead on DLS.

[alfie]

108/2 in the twenty first ...Morgan and Root picking up runs pretty steadily : England look to be on course to haul in this target. Already well ahead on D/L in cast those clouds choose to unload...and they do look a bit threatening.

[alfie]

Covers on ...players off. 132/2 off 27 leaves England well clear on D/L.

Will they get back on ?

[Duty281]

It's probably all over, with monsoon rain deluging the ground.

[LondonTiger]

England win the series with ease. Shame all the games have been badly affected by the weather. Morgan and Root could see the rain coming and, helped by the reprieve for Root, managed the score v DLS very nicely.

[sirfredperry]

Bairstow's injury shows the sheer lunacy of cricketers playing football to warm up. You don't see Harry Kane and co practising slip catching before a football match.
I seem to recall David Sales missing an entire summer thru an injury playing football. Glenn McGrath fooling about before a Test arguably cost Australia the Ashes in 2005.

[Duty281]

An extraordinarily generous price of 4/7 on England winning the upcoming ODI series against Sri Lanka is available at Bet365. A beautiful way to begin the winter months.

Good start, that. Now time to target the 6/5 that Sri Lanka win the test series (hope the weather is better!).

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

News breaking out of Sri Lanka that Rangana Herath will retire after the first test in Galle - a big blow for Sri Lanka that - if England can survive the first test somehow, and Herath gone - they have a real opportunity...

[LondonTiger]

Murali pre announced a mid series retirement too. I always find that a little ostentatious and self centered.

Never keen on any pre announced retirement, though admit it does allow the public to say farewell, but doing it like this just makes me feel people are putting themselves above the team.

[robbo277]

Murali pre announced a mid series retirement too. I always find that a little ostentatious and self centered.

Never keen on any pre announced retirement, though admit it does allow the public to say farewell, but doing it like this just makes me feel people are putting themselves above the team.

I am inclined to agree, from a player perspective it is a bit selfish. From a team perspective though, is it any different to the captain delaying a declaration to give a batsman a shot at a milestone because it's good for team morale?

If Sri Lanka played hardball and said to Herath you can either go now or you have to play the whole series, they could end up either losing Herath for the one game he's willing to play, or carrying him for the last 2 or even the entire 3 games because he agrees to play but doesn't really want to.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Sri Lanka set for a huge score here - 200-2 off 30 overs, England basically "giving everyone a game" here, and the outsiders in the bowling department are not taking their chance

[Duty281]

366/6 - fine effort. But I think England can chase it down. Might have to be a DLS victory, however...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Time for the Jos double hundred

[Duty281]

4/2.

Actually, I don't think England can chase it down!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Time for the Jos double hundred

Oops.

This is quite funny - if only for Sri Lanka celebrating like they're winning the World Cup final

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

That's the problem when you're obsessed with batting on pancakes. SL getting a fraction of swing and Roy/Hales/Buttler lack the technique to handle it

[Gooseberry]

ECB no doubt furiously re-issuing those denials of England players being involved in match fixing

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

not sure why Stokes is continuing here - stuffing his leg up in a futile chase seems pointless

[king_carlos]

Looking to the world cup, a friend raised an interesting point today.

1. The batting is outstanding, especially with home advantage allowing England to (within reason) play on tracks to suit their batsman liking the white ball coming onto the bat.

2. Moeen and Rashid have formed a vital spin pairing that is functioning impressively with the white ball. Their main role is 'eating up' the middle overs quickly to keep pressure on opposition batsman and they are performing it well.

3. The number of all rounders likely to be in the squad gives depth to the batting and bowling plus lots of 'horses for courses' selection options.

4. The seam bowling is comparatively average. This being the point in hand.

Looking at the options to have played in the last year:

Front runners: Woakes, T Curran, Stone, Plunkett

Woakes is a strong opening bowler with the white ball, especially at home. Tom Curran has shown composure under pressure at the end of the innings. Stone and Plunkett both provide extra pace to mix things up.

Reserve: Willey, Wood, S Curran

I like David Willey as a cricketer but think he falls into the large bracket of strong county players who lack what's needed to excel in international cricket. Mark Wood is a talented bowler but injuries have taken their toll, he now faces the issue of being a much better bowler with the red ball but struggling to stay fit enough to bowl with it. Sam Curran is supremely talented but another who is stronger with the red ball than white, in my opinion he currently lacks the pace or variety to be a strong ODI bowler, in time maybe but not quite yet.

Outliers: C Overton, Jordan (featured in T20i but not ODI), Ball

Craig Overton is another talented bowler in this post who is better with the red ball than white. Chris Jordan is a useful lower order batsman, excellent fielder but a limited bowler in ODI cricket. His bowling suits t20 cricket where he only bowls 4 overs and can be used predominantly at the death where his strengths lie. In ODI cricket where else does he bowl though, he lacks a threat with the new ball and frequently gets hammered in the middle overs against strong batsman. Jake Ball is another who's been injury hit but frankly hasn't looked good enough in the international arena.

This leads to the question that my friend posed to me: If given overs with the white ball, would you want Anderson or Broad in your world cup squad?

Instinctively I dismissed this as a ridiculous suggestion. Neither have played any white ball cricket in 2018, Broad last featured in ODIs in 2016 and Anderson last featured in 2015. Given my huge frustration at white ball specialists being thrust into the test side it is also a minefield of hypocrisy to deal with! The easy argument there is that both would likely have featured had they not stepped away from the one day side to, successfully, prolong their test careers.

Between the seam bowling being the weakest link and the home conditions at the cricket world cup I begrudgingly admit that one of the senior test seamers could improve that one day squad.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Personally Carlos I don't think either should be near the ODI side - they were both absolutely rubbish at the last world cup in 2015, and this England side has progressed way beyond them in my opinion, and that's even before considering if either would risk what is potentially their last Ashes series in the summer of 2019 by playing white ball cricket early in the summer.

[Gooseberry]

Adding to Ollys point ...
If we are using the argument that theyt are our best bowlers in home conditions regardless of format its worth noting that Woakes has the best test figures over the last two summers, and hges only Englands second best ODI seamer currently (Plunkett being number one). So straight off the bat we can put that one to bed.
Anderson and Broad have barely played any cricket with a white ball too, they have played very little domesticaly and internationaly since itys introduction and since the rule changes which have changed the way the games played. The last real indication of how good they are in this format is 2015.
Then look at the make up of the side. Stokes plays, thats a given. So you have Woakes , Plunkett, Stokes and room for one more seamer. For balance and variety that would be a left armer or a genuine quick or ideally both ... ruling out Willey whos pretty rubbish that puts Tom Curran and Stone ahead of Broad and Anderson in terms of the options they give the captain.
When we look at the batting as pointed out the success of the top order is in part down to them being able to trust the lower order and bat aggresively from the off. England have luxury of almost of their senior bowlers being decent bats, Broad and Anderson arent....adding them to the mix potentaily weakens that.

Im glad you did caveat the whole discusion that seam bowling is a relative weakness for England, theya re still pretty strong in that department especially in home codnitions. What they have lacked at times is an out and out strike bowler (like Finn during the breif period he wasnt rubbish) neither Broad nor Anderson is going to fill that gap unless its absolutely hooping on a wet morning in trent bridge...even then its harder to get in so many close catchers and the edges are more likely to streak to the boundary.
They dont have any seamers in the top 10 in the ICC list, but both Woakes and Plunkett have missed a fair few games and suffered rankings slip because of that. Also most of the bowlers above them are spinners. In terms of seamers Woakes is ranked 5th and Plunkett 10th and Wood 11th ...although is anyone really going to make a sensible case that Tim Murtagh is a better bowler than Plunket???
The young guns havent played enough to get a meaningful ranking, and Stokes too has suffered by missinga lot of games for various reasons. But his form with the ball post arrest is a big concern... its 10 games since he last took a wicket in ODIs. If we are looking at improving Englands seam bowling its getting him back firing IMO thats going to make the biggest impact.

All that said if it werent for the need to reduce their workloads and protect them I could see an argument for having them as squad options, certainly ahead of the likes of Ball and Jordan. But its really not on the cards, engtland moved on a long time ago from both and have had their best success without them. This last game is a meaningless blip, other than reminding us that cricket can throw up surprises and no matter how dominant a team is they can loose one of games. As with the last T20 England will need to stay switched on and have an element of luck no matter who they pick and how good they are.


Last point ...Jordan is not a good limited overs batsman. This myth keeps getting pedalled but he averages 12 in both formats and has one domestic 50 ever, never gone past 40 internationaly. He doesnt even score quickly.

[guildfordbat]

Hi Carlos - I understand the thinking in your post about Anderson / Broad but feel that ship has sailed and so have to side with Olly and goose.

Worth keeping in mind that the depth in batting normally allows England to play 6 frontline bowlers (that's including Stokes and ignoring Root). Whilst I always favour playing the best specialists available, that allows for added flexibility in who bowls when and how much as well as potentially diluting any seam bowling weakness.

[king_carlos]

Hi Olly, Goose and Guildford.

All good arguments and I didn't expect an enthusiastic response!

It was a question which kept bugging me against all logic though so thought it would be interesting to get a 606v2 opinion.

Anderson in particular has a level of control and beautiful Yorker that few possess.

Tom Curran showing an appetite for death bowling is a welcome addition to the options however.

[Duty281]

Bairstow's ankle injury, sustained during playing football, has now made him a doubt for the first test.

Foakes called up as cover.

[king_carlos]

Glad to see Foakes called up, it's deserved, but you'd presume that Buttler is next in-line for the gloves (that's if Bairstow is getting them back...) with Pope then coming into the middle order in Bairstow's place if he isn't fit.

1.Burns
2.Jennings
3.Denly
4.Root (c)
5.Pope
6.Stokes
7.Buttler (wk)
8.Moeen
9.Rashid
10.Broad
11.Anderson

The other option would be Moeen moving up the order with Woakes likely coming in. Given the selectors considered resting Broad for the tour I expect that Woakes will play in his place at some point instead.

Early indications have been that Smith and Bayliss don't want two new openers, hence Jennings plays but it seems that Burns is nailed on. It sounds like Denly will then slot in at 3 to push Root back to his favoured position at 4.

[Jetty]

Mail
And Foakes, 25, is likely to play in Galle if Bairstow is ruled out even though England already have white-ball keeper Jos Buttler, who also kept in the fourth Test against India last summer, in their squad.

At the beginning of 2015 Anderson was 6th in the ICC Rankings. Broad was 48th. They aren't coming back.
Best attack Woakes, Willey, Plunkett, T Curran. No point in Stokes bowling, hardly bowls his 10 overs or takes wickets.

[guildfordbat]

Mail
And Foakes, 25, is likely to play in Galle if Bairstow is ruled out even though England already have white-ball keeper Jos Buttler, who also kept in the fourth Test against India last summer, in their squad.

At the beginning of 2015 Anderson was 6th in the ICC Rankings. Broad was 48th. They aren't coming back.
Best attack Woakes, Willey, Plunkett, T Curran. No point in Stokes bowling, hardly bowls his 10 overs or takes wickets.

Hi Jetty - I'm a big supporter of Foakes but it seems rather muddled selection to pick him now for the Galle Test when Buttler was preferred as Bairstow's replacement as recently as the fourth home Test against India.

I feel your ODI attack contains one seamer too many. With the 4 you name plus presumably Moeen and Rashid, that gives you 6 frontline bowlers plus Stokes and even Root on stand-by.

[Gooseberry]

Muddled maybe but I assume they want a keeper who is better standing up to the wicket for the spinners in this series. Presumably they see a greater benefit from Foakes in these conditions than they did at home ...but both Bairstow and Buttlers batting as a trump card when all are available.

[sirfredperry]

Perhaps England management will ban the players from playing football after the Bairstow injury.

[guildfordbat]

Muddled maybe but I assume they want a keeper who is better standing up to the wicket for the spinners in this series. Presumably they see a greater benefit from Foakes in these conditions than they did at home ...but both Bairstow and Buttlers batting as a trump card when all are available.

Hmmm. Although Foakes  (aka That's All ) is a top notch keeper and almost certainly the best in the county game, I actually believe he's better taking from the fast men and seamers than spinners.

[Duty281]

Perhaps England management will ban the players from playing football after the Bairstow injury.

I would hope so, but this has happened a few times in the past, and they continue to do it.

[LondonTiger]

Perhaps England management will ban the players from playing football after the Bairstow injury.

I would hope so, but this has happened a few times in the past, and they continue to do it.

Listening to the interview with YJB sounds like the injury happened away from the ball and any other player. He twisted an his foot got caught in the turf and the ankle went. We all moan about them warming up with football ( me me included - and it should be noted this was not match day) yet the most famous warm up injury was Glenn McGrath and he stepped on a cricket ball and did his ankle.


I see we finally had a non DLS game today, with a huge win for England.

[Jetty]

Mail
And Foakes, 25, is likely to play in Galle if Bairstow is ruled out even though England already have white-ball keeper Jos Buttler, who also kept in the fourth Test against India last summer, in their squad.

At the beginning of 2015 Anderson was 6th in the ICC Rankings. Broad was 48th. They aren't coming back.
Best attack Woakes, Willey, Plunkett, T Curran. No point in Stokes bowling, hardly bowls his 10 overs or takes wickets.

Hi Jetty - I'm a big supporter of Foakes but it seems rather muddled selection to pick him now for the Galle Test when Buttler was preferred as Bairstow's replacement as recently as the fourth home Test against India.

I feel your ODI attack contains one seamer too many. With the 4 you name plus presumably Moeen and Rashid, that gives you 6 frontline bowlers plus Stokes and even Root on stand-by.

Don't bowl Stokes.

Yesterday we had 7 bowlers, Jordan, Curran, Plunkett, Stokes, Denly, Rashid and Ali. Plunkett and Ali only got 2 overs. Stokes none, as it should be.
I wonder if Root has lost his T20 place, after all his bowling in the nets especially to stay in the side. He is off to the BB at the end of the year to show what he can do.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Root indicates that England are likely to have Buttler keep in the 1st test, with Bairstow almost certainly not going to be passed fit in time for that game. Warm up game this week will tell us a lot to their thinking, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this...

Burns
Jennings
Denly
Root
Pope
Stokes
Buttler (wk)
Ali
Rashid
Stone
Anderson

I have a gut feeling it will be one of Anderson/Broad - and then they want Stone in for his express pace, with Denly/Root making up the third spinner overs between them if needed.

[alfie]

Must confess I haven't a clue what XI they are going to put out for the first match...

Game is still eight days away so it seems a little early to make a call on Bairstow's fitness : unless he is hopelessly crocked there must be a fair chance he will be ok ; so that issue of team balance isn't clear just yet ( though I don't expect Foakes to play)
Lots of people nominating various teams but I see no love for Leach ? Surprising me a bit as I think - if the pitches are real rank turners, as many have assumed - he would arguably be the most dangerous of England's potential spin options. I know Rashid did well in the white ball stuff but if Denly plays do they need two wrist spinners ?
The openers are obviously undecided ; and if Denly doesn't open he must be a serious option to bat at three. (I am not in favour of a first three all left handed , as would be the case if Moeen had that spot , though I don't have any real objection to his playing there in spinning conditions...lots of options.
As for the pace bowling apart from the obvious Anderson and Stokes it is open to them to select just one other - take your pick ! Or the usual four which could just about be maintained along with three spinners including Denly...

As I say , I haven't a clue. Names on the dartboard , stand back and throw

[alfie]

What I'd like to see , assuming all fit and in decent form in nets and warm up , is this :

Burns
Denly
Moeen
Root
Stokes
Bairstow/Foakes/Pope
Buttler (if they insist he has to bat as low as seven)
Curran
Woakes
Leach
Anderson

Broad and Stone I'd keep on ice for this one ; suspect it will be unhelpful to the quicks. You could also play an extra batsman in place of the fourth seamer ...I'd leave that to a look at the pitch.

[alfie]

Incidentally I read with interest King Carlos' musings on the possibility of an ODI return for Anderson or Broad for the WC. To be honest it is something I have toyed with at times myself - without committing to a post ; more particularly in the case of Anderson , who is surely the most skilled exponent of bowling in "English" conditions - no matter what the format ? It was sensible to prolong his Test career by keeping him away from the white ball squad ; but a temporary recall for one tournament ? It seemed to have attractions...
However : the squad is just fourteen so not a lot of room for extras ; Jimmy - for all his skills - is presumably out of practice at the short form ; and - most importantly - his particular skill set lends itself to the opening burst and a few mid-innings overs rather than death bowling or "enforcing" ; so he would essentially be there as an alternative to Woakes - surely the most settled member of the attack. So little point ...Stokes will automatically be one bowler , and the other two spots require one pace and bounce merchant (Plunkett the leading contender) and one death specialist (T Curran currently in pole position) ...no useful role for Jimmy.
So I had filed it away as an interesting idea but not one I'd look to implement. And I'd agree with Olly Goose and guildford that remains the case.

Mind you ; if Woakes were to be injured on the eve of the WC , and conditions appeared to be set to favour swing bowling , one might almost reconsider ...

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Think it's absurd that Foakes isn't gonna play. The only team in recent times to win in Sri Lanka has been India, they played Saha as their keeper. Saha is an outstanding pure keeper. Batting isn't all that flash. Buttler isn't the greatest keeper and Foakes is outstanding. Play the guy that takes all the chances. I think Stone should play. Starc has got buckets of wickets in SL with pure pace.

[guildfordbat]

Hi Alfie and all - yeah, I've been a bit surprised too to see no mention of Leach in the teams being nominated.

One thing which concerns me, particularly going from Olly's line up, is that - if the Sri Lankan batsmen don't fold quickly, we're lacking a bowler to do the holding role. Stone and Stokes are strike bowlers whilst Rashid, albeit a slowie, is effectively the same and probably Moeen too. Anderson is nearly always tidy but we want his emphasis to be on wicket taking rather than having a return of 1/45 from 20 in the day.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Denly being given a fair crack with the ball. His success in Saturday's t20 doesn't make him a Test bowler but it might mean Sri Lanka adopt a cautious approach against him.

As for the warm up games, I believe there are just two 2 dayers. Even with the limited length, I hope these games are played on a proper XI a side basis rather than subs coming in and out throughout.

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